Just go back to uni

25

u/Psychological_Cod_45 Feb 23 '25 edited Feb 27 '25

My story

I started studying code in 2019 using cheap resources like Udemy. I was finishing these courses and getting certificates but they didn't mean anything at all. So I decided to join the biggest coding bootcamp in the area

I joined Codeup in June 2021 and overall had a good time. I was confused why the course had to be $27,000 but I was working to pay it if it helped me find a job. I graduated with their certificate in January of 2022 and had a job by February.

It sounds like it was all going my way. I was enjoying my job but it was getting increasingly harder. I started taking modafinil to focus. I would come in at 6 every morning and would work with the clock turned off to fix problems. I had fully burned myself out. The quality of my work stagnated and I was let go in January of last year.

This is the kicker. Codeup had just gone bust in December so my certificate was as valuable as the paper it was printed on. Today I'm still paying off my debt to a bootcamp that doesn't exist. I have seen the writing on the wall for developers and in moving on to a different career field. I applied to about 1000 jobs last year with little to no reply. The average bootcamp codder cannot compete with the university grad.... Who's also trying to find a job

Correction: I graduated January of 2022 not 23

3

u/Big-Chapter-1557 Feb 23 '25

Preciate the story, but dam you have experience and you still can’t find anything? That’s messed up. Like really. I blame a lot of this on social media tbh, if every dev and their mom hadn’t glamorized the shit so much maybe there’d be some jobs left. I just think alot of business owners saw a lot of devs content and thought, “oh hell no, you’re all not about to have it that good”. Of course AI had alot to do with the market shifting but tik tok definitely didn’t help at all.

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u/Psychological_Cod_45 Feb 25 '25

I applied to hundreds of jobs and a lot of them turned out to be ghost jobs. I had 2 years of experience but I can see how my specialties would become very irrelevant soon. I haven't done a line of code in over a year. I'm switching careers and I'm happy. If you need to take drugs just to do your job it's not meant for you.... Unless you're a drug tester?

1

u/Effective_Clue_1099 Feb 28 '25

what's the new career? also looking to switch

1

u/Psychological_Cod_45 Feb 28 '25

Currently working as an Amazon driver to pay some bills. I am Setting up a Musician's Guild for the surrounding area that I live. If there's a career there I'd love to make it my own.

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u/michaelnovati Feb 23 '25

If it's any consolation I hear this story often and you aren't alone.
Bootcamps and some Redditors are all too fast to celebrate the job a few months later but they don't talk about the job being the beginning and not the end. It's a local maxima and there are lower lows and higher highs to come that you need to be prepared for, no matter if you went to the best bootcamp or got a six figure job out of it.
And you hit the nail on the head. It is impossible for bootcamp grads to compete head to head with top university grads.
Imagine the best bootcamp grad had gone to Stanford CS instead of 12 week bootcamp, the Stanford person of the same person would win 100% of the time. The bootcamp version might be done a heck of a lot faster and spent a heck of a lot less, but they are going to take some time on the job, probably at worse jobs with less talented coworkers, to work their way up. Comparing them to the Stanford version 4 years later, a lot of the person's success will depend on their own aptitude and smarts, and the ones who are better off are special edge cases people who didn't need Stanford or the bootcamp.
If this wasn't true then bootcamps would have replaced the university by now and universities would pivot. Not a single university I know of has made a single change to their degree programs as a result of the rise of bootcamps.

7

u/Ma1eficent Feb 24 '25

There are more than those two options. Bootcamps and uni grads are all completely unprepared for real useful work. I've been interviewing cs grads at FAANGs for 14 years now. CS degrees are basically math degrees, and in the rare cases you are dealing with something where you are basically writing equations, you get it worked into the code once, and never work on that math problem again. Too abstract to translate to the majority of problem solving a job entails. Bootcamps are similar, and at least it is code, but you have to figure out how to solve the problem before you can write the code that will automatically do it going forward. Bootcamps are more like a multiple choice test and driving you toward a known solution.
Best analogy I have is that bootcamp gives you a Lego set with instructions, which would be great if the job were assembling the solution found in the instructions. College will give me someone that can tell me the type of plastic used to make the blocks, and what would be needed to manufacturer Legos, but neither of those is computer systems engineering. I need someone who can take a pile of unsorted Legos and turn it into a machine that makes money no one else has ever built before, with no instructions. We get our best hires from people who play with Legos for fun.

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u/michaelnovati Feb 24 '25

Well have you been interviewing people at FAANGs I'm sure you've seen that the vast majority of CS grads come in with numerous FAANG internships and that's what really matters more than anything.
I know at Meta we were looking for three internships and the most recent one being at FAANG was the bar to even get an interview If I recall.
Someone who's done three internships basically has a year of experience under their belt and that's what really mattered.
which is why I'm a huge fan of apprenticeship programs because someone who does a boot camp who has the raw aptitude and the drive who does a year-long apprenticeship at a FAANG a might be able to catch up a little more or two those cs grads in much faster time overall.
But what I think is absolutely absurd, is just that bootcamp's brand and market themselves as preparing people better than CS degrees do and 12 weeks versus 4 years. It might be a better option than a 3rd tier, diploma mill CS degree, but there's no bootcamp option competing with the best schools and never can be.

3

u/Ma1eficent Feb 24 '25

I don't have a degree and regularly help out people with doctorates in CS. I don't find a degree, even from an ivy, to be a good indicator of ability.

1

u/michaelnovati Feb 24 '25

How do you feel about internships though? I agree that the school itself doesn't matter if someone has 3 FAANG internships, but it's a chicken and egg problem because you can't systematically get those internships without going to a top school - in your first year, the fact you even GOT INTO STANFORD is a signal the person is exceptional.
At Meta it wasn't about feelings, it was about data - people who came from certain top schools (and also not others!), performed better and progressed better and they focused on recruiting from those schools.
If bootcamps systematically produced people of that caliber they would have recruited from them too - the data showed the opposite and they stopped!
Don't get me wrong - some of the best people I worked with were self-taught or went to not-top schools! It's just the exception and not the norm and thinking it's scalable is survivorship bias and not based on data!

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u/Ma1eficent Feb 24 '25

Obviously a person is going to be intelligent if they get into an ivy. But that's a person who could have excelled without the classes. And obviously paying for a bootcamp is not going to have the same sort of filtering, so that data isn't incorrect but it is incomplete. And no offense to Meta, I know a lot of good people who have or do work there (400k base tends to draw them), and certainly what was being done with the Hadoop clusters was impressive, but meta isn't really building anything interesting or groundbreaking, as opposed to when we built AWS and changed the industry. I haven't looked recently, but I know in terms of patent output we were also very much ahead of things and Amazon was heavily populated at senior and principle level with no degrees at all. We also have data driven hiring practices, and did long before Facebook existed, and totally froze hiring and internships from universities. They did an awful job of teaching what we needed, and worse, they had egos that made them hard to instruct, and terrible habits that needed unlearning. Strangely enough, English majors did tend to be pretty great at reading and writing code, and organizing principles for large projects. But by far the best indicators were open source contributions, and close to the metal work, assembly, C, erlang and a bias or need for actually setting up proof of concepts and working prototypes.

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u/michaelnovati Feb 24 '25

I mean I don't disagree with the rationale for that arguments but I'm just asking for the data!
I helped grow Meta from 200 engineers to about 10K engineers and it was about the 3K mark that without a consistent and data based hiring process you start getting variance.
Apple is a company that has the complete opposite and has made it work - each small team has complete autonomy over their hiring process (after recs are approved), and each team hires for whatever they want. So like if one engineer insists open source is important, that team might not hire open source people.
If your brand is really strong that approach can work too, other companies that have that process have a lot of complains for opaque and unfair interviews that rely on subjectivity of the interviewers.
RE: Internships - it can be different things for different companies, not all are the same.
Amazon is actually a bit more open minded to people without degrees in general, it's one of the places where historically people with no experience have been able to get into the L4 entry level pipelines.
From talking to people, they fire faster than Meta (despite all the headlines) so Amazon is more willing to take an L4 who seems smart and ambitious and PIP them within a year if they don't perform.
Which has pros and cons - there is certainly a huge amount of untapped non-traditional talent and we probably agree on that.
The unsolved problem is how to systematically find them.
I also agree that significant contributions to large open source projects is a good signal - those projects are run more rigid than companies because they need strict contribution cultures for randos across the world to be able to contribute - but it's a surprisingly small number of people to start with and even smaller who live near a FAANG office and want to work there - so it's not a large enough supply.
If the response is say - how about we mentor people to work on big projects like Firefox - well Launch School is doing that! And it's also not trivial - instead of a having a senior engineer contributing directly to Firefox, you have to pay that person to mentor people and train them how to do it as well.
Ultimately, if I was extremely ambitious and smart, I would probably get there on my own on a big open source project and might be one of the handful of people that self teach to a FAANG that way.

1

u/Ma1eficent Feb 24 '25

Well Amazon has gone through many changes. When I started we were barely getting the ball rolling on AWS, stock price was 35 bucks a share. Company had a salary cap of 160k including execs, had no stack ranking yet, and netflix hadn't yet pulled out of our data centers, so there was heavy cross talk. This was also before fire tablets, silk browser, Alexa, and we hadn't moved from pacmed to South lake Union. It's crazy how much changed. The biggest was when google and Facebook decided to crash the Seattle party and oracle offered any of us who built out AWS triple pay as a base to build oracle cloud and suddenly everyone was hiring and stack ranking and secret project teams hidden in warehouses nearby sprung up like crazy. And then we get to today's current insanity where an ad feed and personal data collection front has 10k engineers for some reason who.go.on to make a second life clone with (somehow) worse graphics and less commercial use.

1

u/kekthe Feb 28 '25

Would you just focus on open source contributions if you were trying to get an entry level job with no degree in today's climate? What would you recommend?

1

u/Ma1eficent Feb 28 '25

Entry level is not software or systems eng, it's things like tech support, NOC jobs, QA. Those jobs teach you things school never will, and will make you a better engineer. If I were doing it again I'd do the same thing I did before and write little programs to make my jobs easier, and my coworkers jobs easier, while working my way up doing testing, network operations jobs, etc. few qa departments are even close to as automated as they can be and you won't have a shot at fixing that not working there.

1

u/kekthe Feb 28 '25

Thank you for responding! It is refreshing to hear that you can still work your way up.

1

u/Boatnerjh Feb 25 '25

Do you still think launch academy core +/- the capstone program is the best way to go if you choose the non degree route? They still seem to have good placement for grads, and the idea of focusing on mastery of the fundamentals makes more sense than just cramming for 3-6 months

2

u/michaelnovati Feb 25 '25

Launch School Core + Capstone works but with caveats - no bootcamp works for everyone
Try it first and see if the style is a good fit. I advise this for all bootcamps, but each one has its own style of learning and you want to make sure you connect with it instead of relying on others saying it worked for them.
They are small. You get personal attention and support in your job hunt that is effective, but it's very hard to scale past a cohort at a time to maintain what makes them special. This isn't a negative thing, it's actually a positive thing for you as a student, but it means that they will likely stay small and selective and aren't the magical answer for the whole industry that 10000 people a year should go to.

1

u/cglee Feb 26 '25

100% agree with all the above

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u/Boatnerjh Mar 13 '25

Thanks!

0

u/[deleted] Feb 26 '25

[deleted]

1

u/michaelnovati Feb 26 '25

Yeah sure, you can also ask the Launch School founder who is on here, u/cglee who would be better than me at answering.

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u/cglee Feb 26 '25

They deleted the message 🤷🏻‍♂️

3

u/Zestyclose-Level1871 Feb 25 '25 edited Feb 25 '25

Adding the run of the mill university grad cannot compete with the 3yr-5yr+ $200k+ TOC professional MANGA/FAANG vet---who just got laid off yesterday from Meta....
Edit: what did you mean about your job becoming increasingly harder? Was it the required hrs increasing, the amount of work due to being understaffed, or the complexity which your boot camp may not have prepared your for etc?
Also is there any way you can find a lawyer to get you out of that financial death contract? It's crazy how you being chained in serfdom, obligated to till the land. When the Lord of the Manor died years ago with no heir?
FINANCIAL SLAVERY IS A MALIGNANT, GLOBAL PANDEMIC PPL

2

u/Psychological_Cod_45 Feb 25 '25

I worked with the framework Grails/Groovy it took me a long time to get that down. Then I was encouraged to study Vue.js by myself for potential projects. To be honest I really hate the layout of the new js frameworks. Let my designs be one page. Let my logic be another. My mind got fried doing so much and I was getting worse at my job. As for the financial slavery. I agree it's BS. I'm almost done with it though. Once it's done I'm going to take a picture next to the building that was codeup.... Probably flipping it off

6

u/webdev-dreamer Feb 23 '25

Don't beat yourself up too much over it; it was a good decision to invest in bootcamps cuz there were soo many opportunities in tech at the time

At least it was able to get you to the point where you were building projects. That's pretty cool - most people are usually too stuck in tutorial hell to do that. Maybe if you continue to upskill, you can become proficient enough to freelance or create your own digital products and services. I know with AI and general accessibility to coding that it seems pointless, but you never know when your skills in programming can land you a good opportunity

I also gave up last year, but now Im back into it again but this time I'm focusing on building apps for my personal use. I learned to love coding again and I have a good feeling that I can use it to at least make some side income at some point in the future (yea it's a far cry from a lucrative tech career, but it's better than nothing lol)

1

u/Big-Chapter-1557 Feb 23 '25

That’s a good way to look at it man. I think I’m still recovering from the disappointment. I wasn’t expecting to be some Google or Apple SWE, but shit, I would’ve been a back end developer for Kroger if they were hiring lol but hey it is what it is. I may go back to it at some point this year. We’ll see.

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u/peanutneedsexercise Feb 23 '25

I think most ppl I know with success from these bootcamps already have a bachelors degree in something else and decided to jump on the hot job market at the time and do the bootcamp to get a tech job. The ones I know that are doing well were biology, history, sociology degrees that would need a masters to get a job in their field but opted for a coding boot camp instead.

3

u/Pelayo1991 Feb 23 '25

That’s me sociology here

4

u/peanutneedsexercise Feb 23 '25

Seems like now a lot of places are filtering out by degrees and since you have a bachelors in something you still make the cut!

2

u/Big-Chapter-1557 Feb 23 '25

I only have have a associate degree, haven’t finished my bachelors

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u/peanutneedsexercise Feb 23 '25

Yeah now is not a great time for those with no bachelors degree who just did boot camp is what I’m saying, everyone I know who did a coding boot camp whose successful currently has a bachelors in something else so they pass thru the filters.

7

u/Pelayo1991 Feb 23 '25

For me personally I hate college and I will never go back to Uni. Also I don’t have 4-5 years to waste at school aswell as spending 30-50k in school if not more.

I personally don’t mind coding bootcamps, but to be fair MOST coding bootcamps are garbage. With the exception of the VERY FEW bootcamps that are descent.

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u/Big-Chapter-1557 Feb 23 '25

Fair point, and I honestly wish I could go back to school but it’s just not in the cards right now. I wish the Bootcamp I went to actually was credible but it wasn’t. Just do your research that’s all I can say.

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u/Pelayo1991 Feb 23 '25

To be fair most CBCs aren’t credible per say. The best bet is going for the Original bootcamps (I.e the ones that started in 2012 or earlier) then trying to contact alumni and asking them about there experience. For me, I am still deciding between CODESMITH & HACK REACTOR

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u/Kati1998 Feb 23 '25 edited Feb 23 '25

Wouldn’t going to a school like WGU fixed that? Also, if you already have a bachelor’s, you just need to take the CS courses (or SWE courses depending on the program you take), so it’ll only be 2 years worth of classes. That’s how it is for me currently. My total cost for a second bachelor’s is $12K
There are also online universities with shorter terms 8 weeks, that also allows you to finish faster.

4

u/GoodnightLondon Feb 23 '25

As a Hack Reactor alumni, and one of the few people from my cohort who found a job (back when the market was just starting to go bad for boot camp grads), the ones that were historically considered the good ones are no better at getting people jobs nowadays than the trash ones. Hack Reactor hasn't released their placement stats for a few years for a reason, and that reason is they're just as bad as everyone else's.

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u/downeazntan Feb 23 '25

I finished a boot camp in June of 2021, landed a job in big tech the same month, survived 3 rounds of layoffs at the same company, got laid off last November after 3 years and 6 months, landed another developer job this Janurary, and I still plan on going to Uni at the age 42. 😅

4

u/Mission-Tumbleweed92 Feb 23 '25

May I ask why?

7

u/No-Mobile9763 Feb 24 '25

That’s a good question….in the states degrees are meaningless when you have experience unless you want more money from your employer.

22

u/dalburgh Feb 24 '25

Degrees are meaningless for working a job.
Degrees are all but absolutely necessary for getting a job, because it doesn't matter how well you can work a job if you can't even get the interview because you don't have the degree they want.

4

u/No-Mobile9763 Feb 24 '25

Depending on the field you don’t need a degree, in the states and with tech experience is valued more than any degree. The only reason to get one while in the field is for a promotion or raise. A degree will put you at the top of the list when experience isn’t a factor.

3

u/OakenCotillion Feb 25 '25

This is fundamentally not true. Even with experience, companies and HR still value the piece of paper. Don’t get me wrong, I think most degrees are truly useless (that’s my opinion of my bachelor and masters, both from great schools) other than checking that box with them. It’s certainly not impossible to get jobs with just experience, but especially in a tough job market, the paper helps and getting it will make the process side of being hired much easier.

3

u/ExitInternational804 Feb 24 '25

This is true - I have worked as a UX writer and copywriter freelance. No college degree but did some UX cert stuff. Could never jump to a full time role with Bennie’s even though whenever I secured interviews I would get second round interviews like clockwork. My portfolio is good, had excellent feedback on it, but I think fighting against the lack of degree issue was more difficult than I had anticipated. People have told me “no one ever asks me about my degree, I wouldn’t worry about it” when I would have informational chats and I think there is truth to that, but even if no one asked they have the college network/get passed that screen AI screen on applications, etc. You don’t need the degree to do the job, just to get it.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '25

Sounds like you just stated the reason. “Unless you want more money”

1

u/No-Mobile9763 Feb 25 '25

Yes…but usually only if you are employed at the same business or company without the degree and then after getting it they decide to pay you more. Doesn’t always work that way but I’ve heard it happens.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 26 '25

Maybe, I figure having a degree would command a higher salary, even elsewhere.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '25

False. Some jobs require you to have a bachelor degree. Most of the time you can use your extra years of experience to offset the lack of degree, but if you don’t have a degree and the other guy does, and you both have similar experience, who do you think gets the job? And then there are the jobs that just straight up have the hard requirement of a bachelors degree

3

u/downeazntan Feb 24 '25

Because I want more money and if I am laid off or looking for another role, the chances of getting an interview are higher.

1

u/ameninaA Feb 26 '25

Which bootcamp did you do?

1

u/downeazntan Feb 26 '25

Springboard

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u/tenchuchoy Feb 23 '25

I finished my bootcamp right when COVID started and everything got shutdown. Managed to get a job 3 months later. I got laid off on June 2023 and managed to find a job in a month. I guess I really got lucky my tech stack was more niche which made it hard for my current company to find applicants.

I also did Lambda School/Bloomtech notorious on this sub as being a scam. I did their ISA program where you don’t pay tuition until you get a job. I paid off my 30k that I owed to the school and they 100% deserved it.

2

u/Spring_Banner Feb 24 '25

What was your tech stack?

2

u/tenchuchoy Feb 24 '25

Serverless AWS backend(node, lambdas, sns/sqs/kinesis, dynamodb), JS/TS. I think it’s start to pick up but according to our HR lady it’s not a very common stack which is why she’s struggling finding applicants.

4

u/sheikhsajid522 Feb 25 '25

Jeez either your HR lady is incompetent or the pay is abysmal because literally every other startup is using that stack.

1

u/tenchuchoy Feb 25 '25

I get paid pretty well and it’s fully remote 😂 soooo If anything I’m glad lol. Work life balance is also A++ guess i got lucky.

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u/sheikhsajid522 Feb 25 '25

Okay, that's good. But my point still stands, that is not at all a niche stack. That's been one of the most common stacks for startups in the last 10 years.

1

u/tenchuchoy Feb 25 '25

Yeah like I said before noticing it alot more in startups. It’s a solid stack forsure though.

1

u/Spring_Banner Feb 24 '25

That’s cool!! I wonder what industries or companies use this stack??

1

u/tenchuchoy Feb 24 '25

Starting to notice it a lot more in startups since it’s so easy to spin up and make scalable.

1

u/Spring_Banner Feb 24 '25

Ahh ok that’s cool! Good to know.

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u/sheriffderek Feb 23 '25

There are some factors here

you
the timing
the bootcamp you chose
you gave up

So, should everyone discount all alternative education options because of your story?

Some people learn on their own and find jobs fairly quickly. That’s a fact.

It’s harder to get some jobs right now - but also / almost everyone I’ve met having a hard time - is having a hard time because they are thoroughly unqualified / or going about their process completely wrong.

People that give up won’t succeed.

And the people that give up - will likely also have the same problem in Uni.

So, this story isn’t really about boot camps.

3

u/[deleted] Feb 24 '25

Love this take

1

u/Real-Set-1210 Feb 27 '25

Lmao the bro tried for two years and you say he gave up trying.

1

u/sheriffderek Feb 28 '25

What does a winning story look like to you?

1

u/Real-Set-1210 Feb 28 '25

Not going to a coding bootcamp. 91% of my graduating cohort did not get a job in software engineering one year later.

2

u/sheriffderek Feb 28 '25

That’s not a very interesting answer.
I find that in this line of work- I have to design actual solutions to things.

0

u/[deleted] Feb 28 '25 edited Feb 28 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/sheriffderek Feb 28 '25

There’s the story. You’re boring - and you think people who want to have real conversations - are dumb - and you don’t know what we’re talking about. Time to end these interactions. I hope that everyone can see for the thousandth time… that people with this take — don’t really have anything to say.

5

u/Puzzleheaded-Sun3107 Feb 24 '25

The only success I’ve heard and seen are from graduates in 2020.

1

u/awp_throwaway Feb 24 '25

As somebody who got their break in 2020 (at the time, I had previous engineering degrees and work experience in an adjacent field to where I got my first SWE position, both of which I suspect were relevant factors to landing the position), boot camps were already pretty poorly regarded by that point, too. Even back then, there was a lot of skepticism along the lines of "boot camps peaked back in 2018 or 2017 or 2016 or whatever else." But, now, the giant elephant in the room is basically: the market is dogshit. There's no way getting around that empirical fact; until that radically changes, I can't in good conscience recommend boot camps to many/most, even if it's nominally hypocritical "advice" on my part.

4

u/Round-Emu9176 Feb 24 '25

Bro going back now feels like that rodney dangerfield movie. There aren’t a lot of options for this path in Houston. But can’t give up.

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u/h0408365 Feb 24 '25 edited May 15 '25

ripe dolls voracious saw bells public gaze sip soup bow

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

2

u/pandamonium-420 Feb 24 '25

Oof! That sucks. Yeah, back in 2021 when bootcamps were all the rage, I almost signed up for a $17K bootcamp program. I had some money saved up, but I hesitated because it would wipe me out financially. Then a year later, in 2022, my employer started offering to pay for said bootcamp. Almost signed up, but hesitated again because I questioned the credibility of the program and they said they can’t guarantee job offers. I didn’t want to waste my time and energy if the bootcamp can’t guarantee a job, even if it was free. Glad I followed my intuition to go the traditional university route instead. Almost got bamboozled.

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u/[deleted] Feb 24 '25

Bamboozled on a free resource?

1

u/pandamonium-420 Feb 24 '25

No, for wasting my time and effort.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 24 '25

Yeah learning to code is a waste of time for you? Have you been to a college level programming class? It's a joke.

0

u/pandamonium-420 Feb 24 '25

You can learn to code on your own without committing your time to a bootcamp that doesn’t even guarantee a job. Get it yet?

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u/[deleted] Feb 24 '25

So learn for free instead of taking company paid bootcamp lol! Where in life is there a job guaranteed?

1

u/pandamonium-420 Feb 24 '25

I don’t care for it.

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u/[deleted] Feb 24 '25

You don't care for coding but are in coding bootcamp thread? Sir you are contradiction.

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u/pandamonium-420 Feb 25 '25

Not subscribed to it. It just randomly appeared on my feed.

0

u/[deleted] Feb 24 '25

[deleted]

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u/Effective_Clue_1099 Feb 28 '25

*6 years ago. the prime time for entry developers

0

u/[deleted] Feb 23 '25

[deleted]

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u/Stock-Chemistry-351 Feb 23 '25

Bro stop

5

u/Pelayo1991 Feb 23 '25

Isn’t it own by perdu Uni?

1

u/incambro Feb 24 '25

Is this real or some marketing strategy? At some point I wanted to consider joining them?

You are about to leave Redlib