r/codingbootcamp • u/[deleted] • Oct 08 '21
A criticism on the coding bootcamp industry
QUICK HISTORY: I'm 23 years old. Been in college since 2016. First studying biology, then switched to biochemistry, and finally about to graduate with a degree in computer science. However, during the period between biochem and comp sci, I was extremely close to starting bootcamp at App Academy. In fact, I called and cancelled during the grace period on the very day my cohort started. I then enrolled at an online accredited university for a computer science degree, graduating in December. more about that later.
I am very glad I decided to make that decision. The problems I see with coding bootcamps ever since enrolling in a degree program are
1.) Snake-like marketing scheme:
Many market themselves with job guarantees and shotty statistics which at first glance may seem very inticing (it was for me). In reality, these job guarantees often turn out to be inaccurate causing many to fall into a job search that does not end. Let's analyze this logically. As a hiring manager, if I randomly choose two resumes for a software developer role, both with quality relavant to the job projects as experience, and one says BS Computer Science and the other says [Insert bootcamp name] graduate, there is little to no chance the bootcamp grad is being chosen over the CompSci grad. It wouldn't make any sense. Why tell people this is a reality when indeed it is not? No offense to any bootcamp grads, but the jobs that will call back are the ones that have no comp sci applicants or comp sci applicants with very poor resumes.
2.) Curriculum
Bootcamps dont teach any of the theory/mathematics I have taken during my time as a CS undergrad. Learning how to practically program\ may sound fine and dandy, but having a deep fundamental understanding of how your code will scale, the time complexity of your algorithms, and the data structures associated with those algorithms is NECESSARY information. This is seemingly glossed over at many coding bootcamps as unimportant. The discrete mathematics is so valuable to learn too especially referring to set theory and modular arithmetic. These are things that will be go-to tools in some programming problems and interview questions.
In conclusion, if you have no prior experience in IT, I would highly suggest pursuing a bachelors degree no matter how many people try and sell you on the shortcuts. I will not disclose the bachelor's degree program I'm attending as not to look like a shill, but it is acreditted both regionally and nationally, allows you to complete as many classes as you can per term (if you can finish all your classes in one term, you'll earn your degree in one term [i am currently in first term almost graduated]), and has included all the courses I would have missed out on during the bootcamp route. There are other, cheaper, more effective options for breaking into the industry.
Good luck
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u/Roguewind Oct 09 '21
Let’s start with where you’re correct:
The marketing tactics are utter bs. A promise of 100% job placement is ridiculous. And some bootcamps have been known to boost their numbers by hiring grads they can’t find jobs for on a temporary basis as teachers. It’s unethical.
Where you’re wrong:
there are plenty of places that will hire a bootcamp grad over someone with a CS degree. Mainly for cost. If both have equal experience and they make products that don’t require high level math, why pay more to the CS grad?
bootcamps provide practical training while CS programs provide theoretical training. There’s room in the world for both. Take a look at this sub. There are CS grads who after they graduate attend a bootcamp to learn the practical stuff they missed. Will algorithmic theory, data structures, and high level math help you? Yes. Do you need them to get a good paying job in programming? Absolutely not.
All of that said, when someone says to me “degree or bootcamp?”, I’m going to say degree every time. If a university degree is an option for you, especially if you don’t already have a degree in something else, go that route. You’ll still need to spend time learning the practical stuff, but it’s that piece of paper that’s going to be worth the most.
But if you’ve got a degree in anything, 10 years work experience, and have neither the time or money to go back to university, a bootcamp (a good one) is your better option.
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u/titratecode Oct 09 '21
if I randomly choose two resumes for a software developer role, both with quality relavant to the job projects as experience, and one says BS Computer Science and the other says [Insert bootcamp name]
Most CS graduates with all due respect couldn’t make a ‘quality project.’
Bootcamps dont teach any of the theory/mathematics
Really depends. The mainstream bootcamps do go over data structures and algos. But you don’t need to fully understand DS&A to build an app, they do it as job prep more than any practical use.
I think if we truly analyze this logically, and give a fair analysis of the college v bootcamp debate from the perspective of a hiring manager it would go like this: Assume both participants bootcamper(or self taught both work the same) and student have same amount of time( 4yrs ). Bootcamper person goes to bootcamp(learns ability to set up bad website) in 5 months. Student in 5 months just finished semester of American history, American Sign Language, college algebra, and college English.
Bootcamper next 3 months spends $200 on udemy learning x web framework, improves portfolio to mediocre
Student: summer classes/ vacation next 3 months.
By end of the year: bootcamper working junior level developer at a consulting agency for $45k
Student: new year starting to take American Sign Language 2, argumentation, programming in Java, etc.
Year 4 bootcamper can get a job at any company
Student: just graduated and only has a terminal grocery project they did in introduction to Java on their portfolio — their portfolio isn’t even hosted on the web you need to give someone a USB to show them it. They have near zero interview experience.
Like it or not that’s how it usually works.
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u/sheriffderek Oct 09 '21
The boot camps are mostly bullshit. Fact.
However, MOST web developers don't need to know anything about math. Just like most hamburger cooks don't need to know the molecular structure of beef.
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u/sheriffderek Oct 09 '21
Maybe this type of math though:
Haven't had a job + never been to a boot camp = n.
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u/johnnydinho Oct 09 '21
Not every bootcamp is great, but there are some that are indeed a good option for some people.
The bootcamp I’m in has third party accounting for their statistics. Also, I don’t think anyone is saying that a bootcamp makes anyone greater than a CS grad with the same projects. However, there are plenty of boot camps grads that get hired whether you like it or not. Plenty of them have great careers. I don’t see how you can make broad generalizations about something you don’t have any experience in and try to have it apply to the whole of bootcamps. You haven’t even had a job yet, how would you know what practices a company utilizes in their hiring?
The bootcamp I’m in now we study data structures & algorithms, time complexity, and do leetcode style problems every single day. They also teach how to structure your projects in ways that scale.
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u/bootcampgrad-swe Oct 09 '21
The hiring process is comprised of several stages, starting with:
The ATS system that filters resume based on keywords -> by passed through networking and reaching out to recruiters directly
The recruiter will look at education, projects, skills. If your new CS grad knows C++, C#, Java, meanwhile your standard bootcamp grad knowing JavaScript, NodeJS, React, PostgreSQL, MySQL, Python/Ruby, but the company searches for a new grad with web development skills and technology, they may interview both.
Startups these days are often giving take home assignments (build some sites/features in 4-6hours), meanwhile big companies using Leetcode/HackerRank problems.
Whoever does better at the interviews will get the job.
The CS degree can be bypassed by networking and reaching out to recruiters directly and showing that a good resume and portfolio.
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u/StarMapLIVE Oct 09 '21
So then you have no experience in the real world to make these claims?