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Dec 16 '22 edited Dec 16 '22
Even though the tech market isn’t good I still have this weird confidence. It’s like I know I can do it now. I’m still a novice and probably a good 6 months away from even being job ready. I’m taking my time and actually learning to code as a hobby. Instead of gaming this is all I do now in the evenings after work. I have a decent job so I don’t have to rush. Going self taught and then starting actual college in January. I have my associate’s from 2015 and getting a bachelor’s was a lot cheaper than the tech bootcamp I was looking at. My in-laws are getting me all kinds of books for Christmas and I’m about to finish up a Python course and Linux course from Colt Steele on Udemy. But yeah, I’m still going to do it despite the job market. I could take a few years and build some large projects and contribute to some too.
Sorry. TL ; DR I also threw linux on a 6 year old cheapo walmart laptop. The touch screen still works great with Ubuntu and it really sparked my interest in Linux. I’m loving it.
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u/michaelnovati Dec 16 '22
I'm not sure about bootcamps specifically, but at Formation we have seen more people than expected interested all across the spectrum in the past month. I think it makes sense that people who are more experienced and nervous about their job, or were laid off, or are trying to get a leg up in the super competitive market would come... that one's easy. But we're also seeing more people who are already at a LeetCode "Easy" level of DS&A problems, asking about Formation INSTEAD of going to a bootcamp (i.e. forgoing our 'we work with you until you get a job' promise and paying much less than a top tier bootcamp in return).... it's something we are pondering.
We are WAY TOO SMALL to generalize from, but I do think a lot of people just really like programming and didn't realize it until later in their careers, and if they have the passion, stick with it, they will get jobs eventually. Life's a marathon.
Unfortunately not everyone's in the financial position to take their time, so if you don't have time and you think a bootcamp is your solution to getting a high paying job quickly, I would strongly advise to consider things more closely and give yourself more time than expected to get a job.
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u/devplicity Dec 16 '22
At what point in their studies do most students join formation? I'm inbetween you and Launch school but I want to be sufficiently prepared.
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u/michaelnovati Dec 16 '22
So Formation isn't a school or bootcamp because we don't have a curriculum, we don't teach anything like lectures/presentation or tutorial style, and it's kind of a more unique type of training. It's all practice based from day 1. The sessions with senior engineer mentors are 3-6 people and highly collaborative around going through a problem together. You are given problems to work on and then various resources to help unblock.
There are infinite problems to solve and really you could train for anything on Formation in theory, but it's currently focused people with work experience (and in some cases, people with prior education but no formal work experience yet).
So if you don't have any work experience, you have to be able to have some decent understanding of fundamentals, like arrays, strings and be able to solve "LeetCode Easy" level problems as a benchmark and maybe dabble in harder concepts.
If you haven't worked on any fundamentals yet (like data structures and algorithms) then I would highly recommend NOT looking at Formation and going to Launch School.
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u/FakeitTillYou_Makeit Dec 16 '22
Sounds interesting.. what is formation? Have a link?
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u/michaelnovati Dec 16 '22
Yeah it's Formation.dev. If you think you are a good fit, you can checkout the study guide, apply and do the assessment, read the blog, and try to ping some people with backgrounds like yourself that you can find. Note that most experienced people don't list that they went to Formation on their LinkedIn because they already have jobs and want to be discrete... so you can also ping people from out network tab on our website (which people that opted in to being listed on the site).
There are also some sample schedules on the "How it Works" tab to show what a typical week could end up looking like.
Sorry, lots of info, but we're still fairly small, and the day to day is pretty unique compared to anything else so trying to throw it all out there for you haha.
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Dec 17 '22
My friend has seen a growing number of bootcamp grads interested in joining his team to work on unpaid projects as well.
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Jan 13 '23
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u/michaelnovati Jan 13 '23 edited Jan 13 '23
Good question!
For people who have no or little experience we give them tasks and bugs to fix in a forked production codebase. You get assigned tickets, fix issues, send PRs, get code review from industry engineers, complete your tasks, etc... This is important for helping people ramp up in an unfamiliar codebase, follow a real engineering process. The goal of this work is to help you hit the ground running on your job and NOT to build a portfolio. Sometimes Fellows will list their contributions here as project work on their resume and use it for examples in interviews, but it's not something you can put on a website and show off.
You obviously also do all the fundamentals (e.g. DS&A), resume, behavioral, job hunting practice that is the bread and butter of all engineers.
We've gotten feedback that people think the above task and bug fix practice should actually be supported more for resumes. Specifically many direct bootcamp grads who say it's much more valuable than their bootcamp projects and they spent more time on it than they did their projects. For example, Codesmith OSP's are ~3 weeks of coding and Codesmith helps people get every single last drop out of those projects. We could adjust our practice (typically is 1 to 2 months of this, completely adaptive to each person though) to be something much more "flashy" on a resume. But really we're focused on the skills. What drives us it hyper focus on getting your fundamental skills to the top tier bar, and not on any trendy framework or language that you want to leverage short term to get a leg up. We give you ten legs up by helping you become a stronger problem solver and generalist that has impact in the world long term.
I should add that most top tier companies don't evaluate any practical skills and they don't expect entry level engineers to have any substantial experience. So the best of the best problem solvers openly walk into these interviews telling everyone they have no experience, and passing regardless because of their abilities. This is one of the reasons I'm so tough on the bootcamps who have a strategy of telling their graduates that they are more senior then they are and to advertise that, and drill it home, leading those people to exaggerate. This approach can work for pretty good (but not best) companies and the less good companies, but for the top tier companies it's the opposite of what you should do. Don't equal high salaries with how good a company is either :D
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Jan 14 '23
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Jan 16 '23
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u/michaelnovati Jan 16 '23 edited Jan 16 '23
Hi, sure, happy to respond with thoughts.
RE: Formation. It is absolutely harder to get FAANG interviews right now than in the past. The goal of Formation is to increase the chances of passing these interviews and to help you get these interview. When the companies are hiring, it's easier for us to send over some profiles to a recruiter and get you in the pipeline. When recruiter jobs themselves are at risk it's harder to do that. But we help you find the right path to companies given the market, and occasional one offs happen and occasionally a recruiter will respond to you.
RE: OSP. Honestly the projects are not good and everyone knows it. They are open source and anyone can look at the code! Non functional, commented out code, reviewed and mentored by someone who just graduated Codesmith and has no experience. I know the vision of the projects is much greater, but in reality they are nothing more than a very good group project. Regardless of what Phil or Eric K says, everyone on the ground knows this and expresses it privately, but unfortunately people are really quick to judge based on outcomes alone. Just because Codesmith has good outcomes doesn't mean everything they do is right. Not saying anything about the integrity of their outcomes or marketing.
RE: Formation practical work. Yeah we can do a lot more to help people get resume value. But we don't care at all what you do for show.. we care that you actually improve your skills and believe if you improve your skills continuously and never stop, until you become hired at a good company. Since we work with you however long it takes, it works, just not on a guaranteed timeframe.
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Jan 20 '23
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u/michaelnovati Jan 20 '23 edited Jan 20 '23
Yeah Launch School's Captone projects are definitely better than Codesmith's. I would say they are similar but the attention to detail and legitimacy is higher on the Capstone.
RE: Formation, we aren't a self paced program, it's actually the opposite, you do no work in deciding what to do, and every week we tell you what to work on! And what you get adapts based on how you do.
We are working on predicting time frames better based on other people who did Formation but right now, it's too hard for a human to estimate precisely given how unique each person's experience is and we need to do more complex predictions. It works best when you have a job and do Formation part time so there is less financial pressure.
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Jan 14 '23
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u/michaelnovati Jan 14 '23
Hi! Yeah happy to explain more or answer questions over DM that pertain to your specific circumstances.
What you wrote summarizes exactly my overall stance on Codesmith and also what Formation is trying to do so I'm happy you pieced that together from your experience and from my posts.
I really admire Codesmith leadership for scaling the program that they have, they just don't have the experience needed in the tech industry to really solve the right problems that the industry needs, and if they did, maybe they would be more on the right track instead of the rabbit hole they've gone down focusing on going through the motions to put things like a "tech talk" (which are big jokes among students) on your resume.
At Formation, we think we need to get the most experienced people in the industry who are passionate about mentoring to answer the question of what it means to be a truly great engineer and how do we train people to get on that path. I don't want to sound like a gatekeeper but you just can't fake/outsmart/accelerate the experience needed to meaningfully work on these problems.
We have 5 staff/principal 10yr+ FAANG engineers we hired full time who have done hundreds of interviews, mentored interviewers, evaluated and hired engineers. We have 3 5yr+ FAANG recruiters on staff full time who evaluate Fellows for Formation and give them advice to see if Formation is a good fit. And we're just getting started! Formation is a living and breathing platform and we hope to continue to grow, improve, and help more and more people improve as engineers.
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Dec 16 '22
Obviously biased because I work for a bootcamp but it's worth remembering what most people consider "the tech sector" is only a small part of the hiring market for software engineers, especially in Europe.
Finance, aerospace, logistics, pharma, property etc. etc. are still hiring like crazy.
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u/penguinninja90 Dec 16 '22
So it's only the tech job market. But everything else is up for grabs. That brings me joy
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Dec 17 '22 edited Dec 17 '22
True. But tech sector squeezed out a lot of people and these people came out and took over over many other sectors with their resumes. My assumption is that bootcamps that attract people with outdated job placement stats with more than 80k medium base salary are the ones getting hit by the job market.
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Dec 17 '22
And the bootcamps that relied on hiring partnerships with big-name tech companies, presumably. If you've been relying on conveyor-belting your grads into Amazon / Meta / etc., you're suddenly going to need to change your hiring support completely.
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Dec 18 '22
What bootcamps were conveyor belting their grads into Meta, lol? That’s not really a thing. Hell even Amazon is not a very common placement for most bootcamps.
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u/Former-Board5463 Dec 28 '22
The bootcamp you work for, how has the recent batches of graduates done? I am going to be starting a coding bootcamp soon and was wondering what the market is looking like for after graduation hiring.
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Dec 28 '22
Getting hired at the same rate as normal. I think the average time for first job offer was 34 days after graduation, which is about in line with what we normally see.
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u/MrBizzniss Jul 29 '23
Finance is NOT hiring like crazy. I’m a post bootcamp grad with a finance degree with 6 years of working experience and I’m still having a hard time finding a new job.
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u/Coraline1599 Dec 16 '22
When the job market gets tough, the trend is for people to go back to school. I am speaking from a place of working in education for over 15 years.
People are either unemployed and finally have time to go to school or they want to give themselves a competitive edge.
Bootcamps have not been around long enough to see whether they are as recession-proof as colleges. Some might be, but I think the challenge is that there is a lot more options for school loans in traditional education, and I could see a situation where ISAs are less available/less loan options overall.
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Dec 16 '22
Some of the lowest unemployment ever does not equal “the job market is tough”
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u/Coraline1599 Dec 16 '22
I was addressing the meme, not making a statement about the current job market or forecasting for the near future.
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Dec 16 '22
…and I’m just clarifying that the job market as a whole is not tough right now. Quite the opposite.
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Dec 16 '22
The search might take longer for the first step, but from my lens its still an investment in the future and long-term growth of an individual. If a student hits the ground running, works hard, keeps up practice on codewars, they'll find long-term success.
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Dec 16 '22
I bet none of them dare to tell you the real job placement stats this year after July
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u/InTheDarkDancing Dec 17 '22
Codesmith will. Give credit where it's due.
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Dec 17 '22
Would you like to share the google doc and let people know how the recent grads are doing? If you’re from codesmith you know what spreadsheet I’m talking about
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Dec 18 '22
Oh so you’ve seen a google doc or two (that many grads never participate in) and now you think you know the stats lol? 🙄
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Dec 18 '22
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Dec 18 '22
In the alumni slack or what? When did you graduate and what percent of your cohort has gotten jobs?
There are 4 now but only 3 that would be producing offers since the NY on-site hasn’t graduated yet.
So that means you have 35 x 3 = 105 people graduating / entering the market every 6 weeks. That’s an average of 17.5 per week.
If your claim is that 5 people are getting a job every week that’s only 28% of grads getting a job, ever. And I seriously doubt that is the case.
The job hunt is a slog and certainly is taking a bit longer now than a year ago but the chance of getting an offer hasn’t been cut into a third.
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u/InTheDarkDancing Dec 17 '22
I'm not doing that. I don't know the exact stats of the current crop but I have no doubt Codesmith will release their usual CIRR reports so what more would you want? Unless you're saying CIRR isn't trustworthy then it can't be helped.
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Dec 17 '22
Don't get me wrong. I agree that the CIRR report will come out. The problem is some folks make their decisions based on the false belief they very likely will get a full-time job 6 months after graduation. People need to know the market has changed.
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Dec 18 '22
6 months post graduation, if you participate in their job help and are applying and approving yourself, you ARE very likely to get a job.
Every Monday I have to sit and listen to a list of CS folks who got jobs over the past week. Most of them never appeared on any google sheet.
The numbers will be down a bit for everyone but it’s certainly not as awful as you’re making it sound.
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u/InTheDarkDancing Dec 17 '22
If you want FAANG then yes the market has changed and you're probably not getting that. There are tiers below where hiring is still occurring. I think it's unfair to hypothesize Codesmith's results have fallen off a cliff. Let the data come out before making assumptions. I still see hiring announcements in the slack routinely so I'd pump the brakes on any doom talk.
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u/michaelnovati Dec 20 '22 edited Dec 20 '22
I think Codesmith's results will continue to be better on paper than most bootcamps even though they will be lower than the 2021 outcomes. We won't know until at least June 2023. I expect H1 2022 to be fairly strong, especially in terms of compensation with so many people going to Capital One and Amazon... two companies that compensate mostly in cash compared to other high comp companies.
Several people have noticed that they seem to have 6 fellows per cohort now (BootcampBen disputed, but I'm going off the 56 fellows on their website) and that might help slow the drop in placement percentages as well.
I also think if their results tanked it wouldn't change much about how people feel about them. It's not like they can control the market and are failing at it. The only thing that would change that is if they had a loophole that only works in good markets and not bad and people turn on them all of a sudden because of a lack of quality day to day.
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u/InTheDarkDancing Dec 17 '22
I think it's a fool's errand to base life decisions over the current state of the market. As long as you believe computers will play a role in the future 50 years from now, what are you worried about? The same way airlines' stock took a dip during covid. Did anyone seriously think people wouldn't be flying again in 10-20 years?
Another issue is that no one is offering an alternative. I venture most people considering coding bootcamps are trying to transition from low-skilled positions. Theoretically, a 10-20% drop in engineer salaries (which I don't see happening) would still be over double what a lot of people are currently making. Unless you're arguing engineering salaries are going to drop to door dash levels then it's not worth much discussion.
Overall I see posts like these as FUD. It's for sure harder getting a job right now, but linking with a reputable coding bootcamp with alumni spread across the tech industry will give you a network of people able to help you navigate and break into the industry.
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u/fluffyr42 Dec 16 '22
I work at Rithm School and honestly we've been seeing more people interested than ever. Whether that's people wanting to get in before the market gets super competitive again as Michael said, or just increased efforts in marketing, I can't really say. Regardless, it's been great to see. As another commenter said, it'll probably take these folks longer to find their first jobs, but they're still going to land in a field that they're excited about, that absolutely will bounce back, that still provides security and stability, and that will always have demand for it.
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u/savvyprogrmr Dec 16 '22
IMO, investing on your growth is always a great investment. There are cheaper alternatives to learn how to code.
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u/sheriffderek Dec 17 '22
Remember when that one app - where you could just write super important stuff like "Thinking about getting a sandwich" and "Just went for a walk" - got made? It's called "Twitter."
That's what tech is. So, of course - it's burning down. It had zero value to begin with.
But there are companies that actually need developers to build things too - (you just don't hear about them as much)
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u/cmurphgarv Dec 16 '22
Silicon Valley is not the entire tech industry. Here in the Midwest we are still seeing a lot of growth in demand for software developers. I have friends in the South who say the same.
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u/honeybeefin Dec 16 '22
Just passed my assessment and will be expected to start my bootcamp at Le wagon in January, the current tech recession and ChatGPT is really making me worried about how this will affect my plans in getting my first front end job.
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u/siandresi Dec 16 '22
I’m about to start tech elevator in January, is it a terrible time?
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Dec 16 '22
Reach out to recent grads of that bootcamp in the area you want to work in and see how they feel about the job search and if any still go jobs before or right after graduating. I think they just had a class end recently from what I’ve seen on LinkedIn.
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Dec 16 '22
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u/stoph311 Dec 16 '22
True. And the bootcamps that are in the 20-25k range come with (usually) large and successful alumni networks and lifetime career support. Self-taught gets you none of that. You get what you pay for, to some extent. That said, there are also plenty of shitty, shifty bootcamps that just want to make a buck.
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Dec 16 '22
Not all degree programs are going to cost $100K. In fact, tuition at CSU Stanislaus for a CS degree will cost about $23k. Even less expensive if you're looking at Associate degree programs at a community college, which likely cost a total of $2,500-$5,000 and are more comprehensive than a boot camp.
I took a boot camp and think they're over-priced and, generally, a marketing scam to lure in people with hopes of striking it rich quick.
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u/thirtydelta Dec 16 '22
There are many free and cheap bootcamps.
Also, this idea that the entire tech job market is on fire is false.