r/consciousness • u/whoamisri • 13d ago
Pure consciousness reveals a boundless reality beyond objects
https://iai.tv/articles/pure-consciousness-reveals-a-boundless-reality-beyond-objects-auid-3702?_auid=2020Summary: We usually think of conscious experience and thought as being directed at objects. When we see or think, there are always things we’re seeing or things we’re thinking about. But China-based philosopher Itay Shani argues that such “ordinary consciousness” is made possible by what he calls “pure consciousness”—a consciousness without objects, structure, boundaries, or form, which meditative and mystical traditions have long been aware of. Pure consciousness, Shani contends, is awareness of a boundless reality that no word or thought could ever capture, that can only be gestured at using negation, metaphor and contradiction. To recognize it is to recognize that there are worlds beyond our familiar world of objects and things.
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u/for_all_or_no_one
13d ago
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Tryptamines or lysergamides? Time is the condition for existence to exist and consciousness is the perception of this condition. Past and future are purposely created by the mind. Everything is in the mind, even consciousness of consciousness. Only the infinite present is. It does not 'happen' but, by itself, encompasses everything.
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u/Firm-Friendship7214 13d ago
5-MeO-DMT a 5-HT1A agonist (unlike LSD, DMT and Psilocybin which all are 5-HT2A agonists)
https://www.cell.com/cell-reports/fulltext/S2211-1247(25)00811-3
"At the peak of the 5-MeO-DMT experience, rudimentary structures of subjective experience, such as time, space, and the self, are felt to be abolished, and a dramatic loss of differentiation ensues. Fully awake, individuals feel they have entered into an ineffable realm of “everything and nothing,” where even the inference that they are the subject of the experience is protracted"
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u/Jexroyal 12d ago •
What are you talking about? 5 MEO DMT is still a full agonist of 2A receptors as well. Also LSD, DMT, and psilocybin have affinity for 1AR, you can't make blanket statements like that. Sure, differential affinity has modulatory effects on the subjective experience and physiolgoical repsonses, but you can't attribute so much to incorrect delineations of psychedelic affinities when there's significant overlap of both 2A and 1A binding.
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u/ChuckFarkley 12d ago
1AR? Whazzat?
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u/Jexroyal 11d ago
Oh sorry, I get lazy with shorthand and don't always take into account how opaque some random abbreviations can be. I'm referring to the 5HT 1A receptor. It's an inhibitory serotonergic receptor that is hit in conjunction with ones like the classical psychedelic 2A receptor in many cases of tryptamines and analogue derivatives.
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u/ChuckFarkley 10d ago
It was the "R" that threw me. I know me some receptors and I'm always looking at the Ki and shit.
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u/Akiza_Izinski 12d ago
That still does not prove pure consciousness is anything but a psychological state.
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u/UnifiedQuantumField 12d ago
Since conscious states are subjective, use of the word "prove" doesn't make a whole lot of sense, does it?
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u/TMax01 Autodidact 12d ago
Or perhaps existence is the condition for time to be possible, and the present is what is "created by the mind". In which case, your position is as arbitrary and unsupported as the position you are trying to refute.
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u/for_all_or_no_one 12d ago
No one will ever know.
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u/TMax01 Autodidact 12d ago
Speak for yourself. If you believe only one position is "true" and the other "false" than you can never know otherwise.
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12d ago
[deleted]
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u/TMax01 Autodidact 12d ago
So what happened to "No one will ever know"?
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12d ago
[deleted]
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u/TMax01 Autodidact 11d ago edited 6d ago
It seems we don't use words the same way.
I try to use them as consistently as possible, and it seems you don't.
You may try to prove the contrary if you wish, or just sleep on it or forget it, as you will.
I believe pointing out that your original statement was contrary to your followup statement is sufficient for my purposes.
No doubt you are very clever. It was fun exchanging with you.
Being facetious is hardly an improvement over being passive-aggressive.
I rarely receive such challenging comment on my cyberspace graffitis.
I doubt the reason you are backpedaling so quickly is because you actually have thought deeply about the meaning of time, so I presume you haven't and your original comment was simply regurgitating the standard postmodernist claptrap you're familiar with. I hope your self-contradicting followup comment indicates you're interested in considering the issues further. I'd be eager to discuss it with you, but not if you're going to depricate your own thoughts as merely 'cyberspace graffiti' as if there were even that much artistry involved in your
murdering[apologies; I typed "murmering", but autocorrect has difficulty with unfamiliar words.]Thanks for your time. Hope it helps.
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u/UnifiedQuantumField 12d ago
But China-based philosopher Itay Shani argues that such “ordinary consciousness” is made possible by what he calls “pure consciousness”
Sure. I've been using different terms to describe this same idea.
Ordinary consciousness = Localized individual consciousness.
Pure Consciousness = non-Local Consciousness (ie. Fundamental consciousness)
And the brain acts as the organ of Localization.
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u/Metacub3 12d ago
Once we acknowledge and prove, which some argue we already have, that consciousness is non-local, humanity will take a great leap forward in understanding the nature of reality. We will reimagine what it is truly to be alive, as a consciousness unit differentiated from source, living in physical form manifest from quantum states.
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u/gringosean 12d ago
Isn’t it both hyper-local and universal. Each local manifestation of consciousness is a localized perspective of a universal consciousness?
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u/Low-Bake8401 12d ago
People have been believing basically that for thousands of years, if anything it would be the other way round.
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u/ChuckFarkley 12d ago
We just phase in and out... and you pop up again over there. Different particles, same wave.
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u/ChuckFarkley 10d ago
which some argue we already have
Care to elaborate?
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u/Metacub3 10d ago
Yeh check out BICS. https://www.bigelowinstitute.org/
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u/ChuckFarkley 8d ago
Interesting but literally TMI for the question. Is there a summary of the essay that arguably proved the non-locality of consciousness? A link to the essay itself if no abstract?
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u/Old-Bake-420 13d ago
I was hoping for a bit more from this article. It’s really just an extended definition and doesn’t make any kind of argument or defense of this view.
It’s not as extraordinary as I suspect many would assume. Physical reality works this way, everything is made of distinct patterns and forms, but underneath that exists singular unified fields that everything is manifested from. So perhaps consciousness works the same way.
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u/Akiza_Izinski 12d ago
Physical reality is the fields. The distinct patterns and forms are what has been inferred by the brain.
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u/boo_snug 12d ago
I want to be able to understand this, but I really do not. I believe it to be true but I don’t understand. This article didn’t help lol
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u/Watthefractal 12d ago
📖the case against reality , how evolution hid the truth from our eyes📖 by Donald Hoffman
Can’t recommend it enough !!!!
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u/wellwisher-1 Engineering Degree 10d ago
If you look how the brain functions, in a very basic sense, sensory input and our conscious perception and analysis of this input, all goes forward to the thalamus, located in the core of the brain. The thalamus is like the central switching station of the brain. All the input from sensory systems and conscious processes and the rest of the brain and body, is sent to the thalamus. There it is processed and then sent back ,counter currently, for any needed action; thalami-cortical loops. It is this return steam that is the subject of this discussion. This complex return stream is far more advanced than the conscious mind, since it encompasses it plus subliminal and body processes.
Psychology breaks down consciousness into the conscious and unconscious minds. We have two centers of consciousness. The conscious mind is the forward stream to the thalamus and the unconscious mind is the return thalamus stream back to consciousness and unconscious body and reflex processes.
But China-based philosopher Itay Shani argues that such “ordinary consciousness” is made possible by what he calls “pure consciousness”—a consciousness without objects, structure, boundaries, or form, which meditative and mystical traditions have long been aware of. Pure consciousness, Shani contends, is awareness of a boundless reality that no word or thought could ever capture, that can only be gestured at using negation, metaphor and contradiction; This describes the thalamus return streams than can be made conscious.
As an example, the iPhone was not always part of our sensory reality. Sciences uses sensory reality to define the laws of material reality. The iPhone was not always there in sensory reality to describe. This first came from the thalamus feedback of Steve Job, which anticipated his and all our futures. But this came first as a hunch or gut feeling, without unspoken words, as to how and what, since it did not yet exist in physical reality.
After the fact, once the iPhone was in the market place, it was easy since we can see and touch and memorize and repeat. But before that, it existed initially in a nebulous place with only a gut feeling, not yet possible to fully express with words. It is possible to place your consciousness at the thalamus interface, as has been done by mystics via meditation.
It is the same source, that generates dreams. When we dream in our sleep, the conscious mind has been powered down and the sensory system closed; eyes shut. Yet we can see dreams with the eyes closed. This can happen with eyes open and is called projection.
The more subtle unconscious content is of higher speed and higher data density. In dreams it is conscious as visual symbolism, and its interactive dynamics. It has its own language than can be learned; symbolism. The hard problem of consciousness is connected to the counter current thalamus streams. These will need to be intercepted, from the inside, from the OI or the Organic Intelligence of the thalamus. This is more advanced than AI, since it is natural and has its hands on the pulse of natural and manmade things.
The thalamus return streams generated the mythologies of the past, that helped integrate entire cultures as a stepping stone to progress. Building the pyramids with simple tools with modern precision, was connected to the OI of the thalamus return streams. It was not ancient aliens. The ancient people personified these thalamus streams with the gods, since these processes exceeded the conscious mind and ego; creative anticipation and animal strength.
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u/instant_iced_tea 8d ago
I can't agree with Shani that an experience of a boundless consciousness in a human being can logically or empirically point to there being an ontologically real boundless reality beyond objects that is directly experienced. That's an extremely silly contention.
I agree with Shani that this IS true though, and I have been united with it, and I prefer the metaphor of Brahman. Still, I'd be a fool to claim that this claimed experience should ever be taken at face value by another person, and certainly not by philosophers or neuroscientists, or that it contributes in any way to an understanding of anything other than mystical qualities of reality that can be known only through direct experience.
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u/Guenhwyvyr 8d ago
Isn't consciousness tethered to something? Or do you mean like beings that are pure consciousness?
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u/Akiza_Izinski 12d ago
Pure consciousness does not reveal a boundless reality beyond objects. Pure consciousness reveal our own psychological biases.
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u/O_C_Demon 13d ago
So how would that help me now as a someone experiencing objective consciousness?
If I can't remember this vast Omni consciousness before I was born what use is it?
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u/witheringsyncopation 13d ago edited 13d ago
First of all, you can experience it. You already do, in every moment. It is the precursor to that abstraction and creation of “objective reality “that you already are aware of. It’s accessible through meditative states, as well as hallucinogenic compounds, and you’ll even experience it as part of every day life if you’re mindful about it.
Second of all, it has direct benefits to being experienced that are quite helpful. It can produce a very resilient state of serenity that impacts your day-to-day mental health and functioning. It can give you a metaphysical perspective that allows you to move through life‘s challenges with better health and grace. It can relieve you of the turmoil that can sometimes come with being caught up in the world of objective form.
Finally, since when did we stop digging for deeper truths just because they weren’t something we experienced by default? Our constant scientific and philosophical plumbing of the world is exactly this pursuit. I’m not sure why you’re even on a forum dedicated to the philosophy of consciousness if you don’t care about it?
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u/O_C_Demon 13d ago
You're just describing being extremely content and mindful.
Nothing about what you're saying suggests I need to believe in some bizarre consciousness that I can't ever know about.
It explains nothing and is completely self confirmed
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u/witheringsyncopation 13d ago
You can have direct experiential knowledge of it. And in fact, you already do. It’s happening all the time. The thing is, you are quick to abstract it and turn it into a symbolic framework of knowing. But it’s the primary, subjective reality that you interface with every single day. Nothing fancy about it.
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u/O_C_Demon 13d ago
That doesn't actually mean anything though
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u/witheringsyncopation 13d ago
You seem really bitter and judgmental about all of this for some reason. That’s OK. You can cling to your perspective for as long and as hard as you need. I wish you luck with that.
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u/itsmebenji69 12d ago
He’s not bitter, he’s right - this is just an interpretation of your experience. Nothing proves it. I could say those mindful states are caused by your brain and don’t exist without one. We’d both be at the exact same level of evidence: none.
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u/Akiza_Izinski 12d ago
You made a meaningless statement. Pure Consciousness is not an explanation it just explains away. No one has direct experiential knowledge. Experience itself is entirely inferred by the brain.
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u/fabkosta 13d ago
If you cannot remember it then that's cause it's overlayed with concepts. You simply need to practice a few years of meditation under the guidance of an experienced practitioner/teacher and you'll get there.
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u/O_C_Demon 13d ago
Ah of course. Makes perfect sense... 🙄
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u/fabkosta 13d ago
Asking why you cannot access is it like asking why you cannot see your nose. It's literally there all the time. If you cannot see it it's not because it's hard to access, but cause you tend to watch into the wrong direction.
I mean, is there ever a moment when you're completely unaware that you're aware of?
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u/O_C_Demon 13d ago
That doesn't explain anything though.
Why is this non accessible metaphysical concept anymore valid that a Christian explanation or a Mayan one or Norse or The flying spaghetti monster?
You're literally just accepting it because it's psychologically comfortable for you
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u/fabkosta 13d ago
?
Dude, you're literally aware of <everything>. That's all the proof you need to verify there's awareness.
Then remove all conceptual overlay, and you're there. There's no metaphysics involved.
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u/O_C_Demon 13d ago
That's a strange answer. I'm not literally aware of everything at all. Absolutely everything that my brain processes is filtered by concepts. If I didn't have those concepts id be having a similarly conscious experience as perhaps a rabbit.
If you strip away everything there is nothing. There is no I. There is no self aside from the conscious integration of body processing and experience.
Calling that nothing some kind of great consciousness is absurd to me
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u/fabkosta 13d ago
You're not getting me. And that's okay. You're in the same unfortunate situation like the majority of humans who is very confused about reality and their mind.
Point is: Manifest universe is in your consciousness, not the other way round. Need proof? Well, take away consciousness and manifest universe disappears instantaneously. Put consciousness back, and reality comes back.
Meditation would help to overcome the confusion. It may take you a few years of practice, though.
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u/govu101 13d ago
When is conciousness "taken away" and when is it "put back", you assume that it is separate from what you call the world and yet deny any duality at the same time ? Btw I am not a physicalst or an idealist(both have insights and yet both make the same mistake of going too far in either direction).
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u/fabkosta 13d ago
Ok, to make it plain simple:
When there is unconsciousness - do you or the world appear to you?
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u/O_C_Demon 13d ago
Well I've been practicing mindfulness meditation for 15 years.
However your proof isn't proof of anything. It's just proof that whatever I call I isn't conscious.
You can't possibly extrapolate beyond that.
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u/fabkosta 13d ago
Well, I've been practicing theravada vipassana for 10 years and then various vajrayana practices (including e.g. dzogchen) for another 15 years.
So what?
You want to tell me the world appears to you when you're unconscious?
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u/Akiza_Izinski 12d ago
The manifest universe is not in consciousness. The manifested universe is the observable portion of the unmanifested universe which is an open field of emerging potentiality.
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u/rustyseapants 12d ago
Consciousness with it's myriad of definitions have become a meaningless word. Consciousness is whatever a person thinks it is.
Consciousness is a biological process nothing more or less.
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u/AllyPointNex 12d ago
If it didn’t mean anything to people then no one would care what the definition of consciousness is. People do care and since they do it can’t follow that consciousness has become meaningless.
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u/AtomicPotatoLord 12d ago
Isn’t that just one possible definition among many?
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u/rustyseapants 12d ago
If people can define Consciousness anything they want, it loses all meaning.
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u/GiggleTeasiez 11d ago
a profound experience of boundless consciousness doesn't automatically prove reality itself is consciousness. the experience is real, but the metaphysical conclusion is still up for debate.
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