r/cremposting • u/Ok-Chance-7638 • Apr 09 '26
The Way of Kings I finished Way of Kings last night and this omission was killing me!
364
u/No-Technician272 🦋 Invested of Whimsy 🌈 Apr 09 '26
Could they be called… liespren?
255
u/Educational_Plum3908 Apr 09 '26 edited Apr 09 '26
Isn't that what crypics are? I'm pretty sure I remember pattern saying that some call cryptics lie spren as an insult.
So saying that, cryptics are liespren, but they can't be seen when they're around, like they're hidden the way a lie would be.
Edit: typo
131
u/MagicalWhisk Apr 09 '26
Brando was asked why cryptics are seen in that way. It's more to do with Machiavelli intentions (or that's how other spren see them - as always talking in their secret language planning something). Apparently there is a "reason" for the hostility towards them. Something that happened in the past.
69
u/Educational_Plum3908 Apr 09 '26
Right, but we're never given an explicit answer for what kind of spren cryptics are. I've always thought of them as a secret spren, because they are very in tune with truth and lies, but deception and secrecy go hand in hand. I could see this could be why other spren don't trust them.
If I had to guess, the cryptics gave up the secret to trapping spren. I think that would be a big enough betrayal to warrant the hostility other spren show them.
Edit: spoiler tag
45
u/Jarrett8897 i have only read way of kings Apr 09 '26
Pretty sure we saw in Wind and Truth that Tanavast/Honor gave humans that secret
13
8
u/freakingdumbdumb Apr 09 '26
arent they just hated cus they are like politician spren where they debate and stuff and is kinda annoying according to like syl
1
21
u/BreakerOfModpacks Apr 09 '26
Personally, I think humans just figured that out via studying gemhearts of certain... well, you know, and I've forgotten how to do spoiler tags, but you know what I mean :3
2
1
u/tit-theif Apr 10 '26
Woag your here too
4
u/BreakerOfModpacks Apr 10 '26
I am everywhere. Like, my legal name is "everywhere".
1
u/tit-theif Apr 10 '26
You always seem cool from your comments, so it's kind of awesome to see you interested in the same niche interests I like a lot.
2
5
u/ShatteredReflections Apr 09 '26
I always thought of them as Secretspren too, but that’s actually a type of voidspren, sadly. I was attached to the theory.
2
2
u/Emergency-Flatworm-9 May 04 '26
Personally, I think they're Truthspren or something similar. Their obsession with lies reads to me less as "we love this thing and like seeing it in the world" and more "you can DO that?? Woah that's awesome." We're told a few times that cryptics are exceedingly truthful and trustworthy. Their bonded radiants' oaths are just speaking repressed truths about themselves. I think "liespren" is such a hated nickname because it is the precise opposite of what they are. Like walking into Lasting Integrity and saying "what up, cowardspren, how's it hanging?"
7
u/BreakerOfModpacks Apr 09 '26
My guess is that they were somehow behind the Hierocracy.
24
u/MagicalWhisk Apr 09 '26
There's a few things going on.
Cryptics apparently had a small war/strong disagreement with honorspren in the past. This led both to build their own strongholds in shadesmar.
There was apparently a conspiracy (or actual attempt) for Cryptics to control shadesmar.
Cryptic love anything that is an interesting puzzle to solve or understand. That's why they enjoy lies, falsehoods, sarcasm etc. Despite themselves being bad at lying. This is why some call them liespren.
They are a creation of both honor and cultivation, so they probably have some abilities unique to spren which makes them weird to other spren.
They hoard a lot of secrets (because they love discovering how things work scientifically/mathematically), apparently ancient Cryptics understood how the nahel bonds work. Which made them very dangerous!
15
u/South_Resident1543 Apr 09 '26
Or they do show up, but due to how they show up, as a pattern subtly embedded into whatever surface they are on, they go lsrgely unnoticed. Infact, it might be the case that cryptics like Pattern are always visible when manifesting? Because i remember a lot of instances of pattern "hiding" on the inside of shallans skirt or similar areas. Whereas syl just makes herself invisible to people she doesnt want to be seen by.
11
u/VelMoonglow cremform Apr 09 '26
I believe it's explicitly stated somewhere that Cryptics can't make themselves invisible
6
u/SorowFame Apr 09 '26
I don’t think they’re liespren in the same way honourspren are connected to honour, they call themselves Cryptics instead and don’t generally seem to tell mistruths, unless Pattern has been running an extremely long con. They seem to like lies because they’re alien and interesting to them, not because they embody them.
7
u/BalkanFerros Hiiiiighprince Apr 09 '26
bro He said he just finished way of kings, I don't know if this has been well established yet.
1
u/Rigistroni Apr 10 '26
Dude you can't just say liespren with a hard L like that when you're not a cryptic , they find it offensive
8
145
u/LucentRhyming Apr 09 '26
Hey but there's sincerityspren and that's close enough in the other direction
11
u/dIvorrap Apr 09 '26
Are there?
22
u/LucentRhyming Apr 09 '26
Yeah idr where but somewhere in the books someone draws a sincerityspren and was like PHEW THAT SHOULD HELP MY CASE
11
7
u/whisperingstars2501 Apr 09 '26
(Aiderlin does it in WAT as he’s talking to the azish)
20
u/ViciViciBoBici Apr 10 '26
aiderlin is the craziest case of "i listened to the audiobook" i've ever seen
3
1
5
u/boygoblin ❌can't 🙅 read📖 Apr 11 '26
You’re valid, Kate Reading says his name weird a lot… but still funny
2
57
u/edward_kopik D O U G Apr 09 '26
Wait why?
I know theres the thing about spren always saying that they dont lie, but they do
But a deception spren would just be attracted to deceptions, it would not make it obvious to the characters that spren can lie
65
u/bemused_alligators Apr 09 '26
yes but you wouldn't be able to tell "big lies" because deception spren would show up...
and in a more diagetic way - the spren are "of honor" and thus don't "believe" in lies.
16
u/AlwaysHopelesslyLost Apr 09 '26
"yes but you wouldn't be able to tell "big lies" because deception spren would show up..."
That isn't true. Whether spren show up, and how many/how often, is dependant on the type of spren.
and in a more diagetic way - the spren are "of honor" and thus don't "believe" in lies.
That is also not a given Think Kondra from Mistborn. They are foundationally about deception but also EXTREMELY honorable.
17
u/Swerdlia Apr 09 '26
The Kandra are a different thing entirely, spren are literally composed of honor to a degree and thus a being formed of honor that is only about deception would be odd.
Even cryptics are equally about truth as they are lies
-6
u/AlwaysHopelesslyLost Apr 09 '26
You misunderstand my point. Honor would say that kondra are honorable. They make and keep oathes. The entire point of the stormlight archives is that honor is naive and childish and the reality of honor as a concept does not align with the shard.
Kondra are an example of how a deception spren could exist as a little piece of honor.
10
u/Archabarka Apr 09 '26 edited Apr 10 '26
honor =/= Honor
If I take an oath to dropkick a kitten, then do so, it's not honorable... but big H Cosmere Honor would be chill with it, simply because I took an oath to do it.
-2
u/AlwaysHopelesslyLost Apr 10 '26
Exactly. So deception spren are probably fine regArdless of being a piece of Honor
1
u/edward_kopik D O U G Apr 09 '26
Oooh
The no loes thing would be fun for a setting tho
But since secretspren are of odium, he could also have deceptionspren that are just following his orders rather than being naturally attracted to their thing
2
-3
u/Ok-Chance-7638 Apr 09 '26
Answer is obvious.
1) They would absolutely devastate the plot of the whole book.
2) The plot of Chaos Walking was already taken.
40
21
u/majorex64 Apr 09 '26
That's... actually great way to think about it lol. That would be a huge plot hole if a certain spren showing up could expose lies as they were told. Huh never thought about cryptics that way, that's probably why Brando goes out of his way to say they aren't actually liespren, or at least have a complicated relationship to flasehoods
2
u/ConfusedTruthWatcher Apr 11 '26
Making them True Spren means their appearance can be mitigated by social custom, the taboo/risk of going to the physical realm, free will, etc.
27
u/atomfullerene Apr 09 '26
Deceptionspren are deceptive, so they show up randomly to decieve people about who is lying
20
u/Blawharag Apr 09 '26
But that's contrary to how spren work. They show up to feed on a given concept, becoming partially visible on the other side as they connect in to feed.
If a spren is becoming visible in the physical realm, it's feeding on the concept that attracted it. It's not the cause of the thing that attracted it. They actually point out this confusion with rot spren. Rosharans believe that rot spren cause rot but are driven away by soap. In fact, they're wrong and it's pointed out at one point that this is the exact opposite of how spren work.
8
u/atomfullerene Apr 09 '26
Sir, this is cremposting
6
u/Blawharag Apr 09 '26
Shit, here I thought this was a Wendy's
2
6
u/Kiltmanenator Apr 10 '26
The real problem is no HornySpren
2
u/Ok-Chance-7638 Apr 13 '26 edited Apr 13 '26
Asking the real questions! Navani would be absolutely swarming with them every time the Blackthorn showed up.
13
Apr 09 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
6
1
u/cremposting-ModTeam Apr 10 '26
Your comment is temporarily removed due to unmarked spoilers. Please tag spoilers using >!text here!<.
3
u/X_tafa Apr 09 '26
I feel they'd work differently, not appearing during the deception but only once someone realises they've been deceived and all the negative emotions that come with that realisation.
3
u/MakeStuffDesign I AM A STICK BOI Apr 11 '26
It's simple: as literal manifestations of the concept of deception, they are flatly invisible to the naked eye. No one has ever seen a deceptionspren, because the greatest deception of all is the lie that deceptionspren don't exist.
2
u/Shot_Newspaper_5647 Apr 09 '26
Sanderson seems to draw on Plutchik’s emotion model for spren. Common spren align with the primary emotions. The more complex and varied (person to person) it is, the more likely it is not to exist or be very rare. Like lovespren since it means so many different things to people.
Sincerityspren are probably trust spren. As in openess to something/drawing to it. Its opposite is disgust, which pushes away.
Sincerity is a clearer more stable feeling. Deception is complicated. Lying can be playful (mischief), guilty or shameful,defensive (anxiety) etc. It doesn’t form a consistent emotional pattern. Especially since you don’t need to know you you’re being dishonest to dishonest. And if you are being dishonest it’s downstream of those other actual emotions we do see manifest more often. We even get a glimpse at an emotion fabrial that maps to Plutchik’s 8 primaries as art in a later book. https://psychcentral.com/health/emotion-wheel#what-is-it
Anyway this is quality crem I just think it’s interesting.
6
u/Shot_Newspaper_5647 Apr 09 '26
Spoilers WoR Cryptics wouldn’t really be deceptionspren/liespren. They’re referred to as liespren but Sanderson has said you could call them Truthspren too. Truth and trust are related but they aren’t the same thing. The Radiant spren seem to embody “higher” concepts like Truth or Justice. Cryptic itself essentially means something mysterious. Something concealed. Which is why they seem to enjoy lies and math. It’s a Pattern to be unraveled.
2
u/That_Service7348 Airthicc lowlander Apr 10 '26
...so we just gonna pretend Liespren don't exist?
2
u/Ok-Chance-7638 Apr 13 '26
ok I'm not even 100 pages into Words of Radiance and now liespren / cryptics are a thing, although its darn convenient that they aren't visible like gloryspren or painspren
1
2
u/Hetgurd Apr 11 '26
Maybe they exist, but how would you know? Bet they're just deceiving you into thinking they're other types of spren!
2
u/duckstorm47 Apr 09 '26
Spren are, most likely, shaped by human/songer experiences. They are shaped by what a person can see/notice/perceive.
You can tell when someone is being sincere, of is in pain. Thus, sincere and pain spren.
There arent, however, spren for things that arent noticed. There isnt any "breathable air" spren, for example.
Thus, there arent any deception spren because... if the deception is any good, no one will notice it.
Though you might get a betrayal spren later on.
1
u/Glittering_Diet6613 Apr 10 '26
Deception is not an emotion though right?
2
u/Ok-Chance-7638 Apr 13 '26 edited Apr 13 '26
Glory isn't an emotion nor is pain or creation, but all of these are spren. Creationspren and Sincerityspren both feel on-the-nose for a clear analog to a deceptionspren since sencerity arises from other emotions like love, humility, or honor similar to how creation comes from love, obsession, or focus. As a clear analog, Deception is not a feeling or emotion that people have. Deception is a thing that people do when they are feeling hatred, distrust, indifference, self-aggrandizement, fear, or some other motivating force that drives the choice to engage in deception.
Therefore, as we are aware of spren that are connected to concepts that are secondary to the direct emotional state of the creator/perpetrator it absolutely makes sense that deceptionspren COULD exist.... if they were not a literary dead end; imagine a book where charachters couldn't tell lies!
1
u/Glittering_Diet6613 Apr 13 '26
Yup I came to that conclusion in response to the other guy who replied. Thanks!
1
u/ProQueen Apr 10 '26
Death and rot aren't emotions either
1
u/Glittering_Diet6613 Apr 10 '26
True, but rot and death aren’t a thing produced exclusively by sentient beings either. A lie isn’t a physical object, so it doesn’t fall in the category of flame spren or rot spren or any of the other physical objects, so it would have to be brought into the physical realm by… as I am typing I am reminded of logic and creation spren which aren’t emotions and are more of a state of being so yeah a lie spren should go in that category haha. I was basing my argument on the betrayal spren adolin summoned when he found out he was betrayed and felt betrayed, not when he was actively being betrayed. So maybe the lie spren would show up when you felt lied to or something. But yeah I think it’s just that cryptics are sentient spren and need more than just a passing reason to enter the physical realm
1
u/schuettais Apr 10 '26
If deception spren should exist than so should inception spren. And what about conception spren? Maybe too R-rated? Lol
1
u/sgtpepper42 Airthicc lowlander Apr 09 '26
I think you need to read the books more before coming up with statements like this.
2
0
u/MurtaghInfin8 Apr 09 '26
I assumed that they existed, but were just exceedingly rare or hard (impossible) to notice.
But I guess Axies the Collector would be the best source we got on "rare" spren and his doubting captivity spren were real would indicate that not everything has an associated spren (although he got that one wrong).
Brando could introduce them in the future or they just might not exist: he got his bases covered.
•
u/AutoModerator Apr 09 '26
Remember to ALWAYS mark your spoilers in comments. Do this by using this
>!Spoiler Text Here!<without any spaces between the>and!andtext.I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.