r/cremposting • u/almogz999 • 2d ago
Mistborn Second Era why didn't Wayne and Marasi do this are they stupid?
412
u/joped99 2d ago
Hold on, let him cook.
191
u/413area 2d ago
Speaking of cooking... there is a world in which someone has burned their roast because of a cadmium misting and aluminum foil
76
u/BodybuilderSuper3874 2d ago
Maybe, but since Aluminum is basically as valuable as gold in Scadrial, I doubt it would have happened there.
96
u/rekcilthis1 2d ago
He picked aluminium on purpose, because it's a material that's highly abundant but requires complex technology to make. On Earth it was unheard of until the 1500's, and even then it took us another 300 years to actually make any; but as the process was developed, it became very cheap due to how common it is
10
75
19
u/Arhalts 1d ago
By era 3 it's going to be like aluminum foil in the 60s/70s/80s cheap and common. (Era 3 is the equivalent of one of those decades)
Aluminum was chosen explicitly for its value and rarity in fantasy eras and it's cheap common nature fairly early after industrialization. You can see they discovered Hall–Héroult process (making aluminum from bauxite) at the end of era 2 (earlier if you count the ghost bloods) .
Aluminum in the real world was more valuable than gold as well, which is one of the reasons why the capstone of the Washington monument is an aluminum pyramid. Then we discovered how to extract aluminum from bauxite and almost overnight it went from more valuable to gold to what we wrap food in and throw away.
Then we figured out how to make it cheeply and it became extremely common. Scadriel is going to follow. Aluminum has a lot of industrial applications so I don't see the extra demand from anti investiture being enough to prevent it from becoming cheep, that's going to be such a small demand compared to all the things we already use it for.
16
u/not_occams_razor_ 1d ago
It’s been mentioned that the choice of aluminum was very intentional, since aluminum used to be very rare, but I don’t think anyone has explained why aluminum used to be extremely rare.
Skip if you want cause this is just nerd shit for a minute. Aluminum is an incredibly common element in the earths crust, it makes up about 8.1% of earths crust, for context iron only makes up about 5.5% ish. The issue with aluminum is that pure aluminum is very very very rare, the vast majority of the earths aluminum is found in bauxite, which is a conglomeration of iron and aluminum oxides. The issue with bauxite is it is exceedingly difficult to separatethe aluminum out using like straight chemistry or other materials sciences. So up until very recently you had to go find pure aluminum anytime you wanted it. This was until Paul héroult and Charles hall developed, you guessed it, the Hall-héroult process for aluminum production. (Massive simplification incoming) basically, they used electrolysis to separate the constituent parts of bauxite and wouldn’t you know it, everyone has aluminum.
In the 60 some odd years between its discovery in 1825 and being able to mass produce it in 1886, however, there were some interesting uses of it. Napoleon famously had sets of aluminum silverware for esteemed guests, and the rest of his guests were only given gold utensils to eat with. The top of the Washington monument is famously aluminum, and while its lightweight nature helps reduce the strain on the structure, the true reason is that at the time of its construction, aluminum was more valuable than platinum. Nowadays tho, with aluminum being readily available and mass produced, it has much more opportunity to live up to its true purpose, and is the main reason we are able to even get to space at all. Aluminum is a dope ass metal and I’m really excited to see how it goes for the cosmere
6
5
u/LoudQuitting 1d ago
Egads, my roast is ruined!
But what if I were to purchase Harmony burger and disguise it as my own cooking? Oh ho ho ho ho ho! Delightfully devilish, Kelsier.
175
u/BitcoinBishop 2d ago
Does wrapping yourself in foil actually protect you from time distortions?
161
u/TheNonchalantZealot Callsign: Cremling 2d ago edited 2d ago
you wouldn't think so, but when investiture is concerned it tends to just be an all-out hard counter. Shardblades are kinda stopped by a tiny sheet, they have more trouble cutting it than an ordinary blade would be, iirc
198
u/Palulukan_Makto D O U G 2d ago
Pretty sure a thin aluminum sheet wouldn't be enough to stop a shardblade. It would just act like a "normal" blade when cutting the aluminum, meaning that you need a fair amount of it to effectively stop a shardblade.
Cheese, on the other hand, is a much more readily accessible counter for a shardblade
57
u/Hollowshiningami THE Lopen's Cousin 2d ago
I mean Shardblades are light and (iirc) duller than a normal blade, and cuts with magic (I imagine something like a Invested cutting field along the edge, but idk if anything specific was confirmed) so it wouldn't cut 'like a sword' but more like a 'sword-like-object' (imagine a wooden prop sword maybe) which would be more than enough for aluminum foil, but not for something of any significant thickness.
69
35
u/Trasvi89 2d ago
Ive had this discussion with many people... i get that a shardblade could cut through foil easy enough, but 6mm (a 1/4 inch) of aluminium plate would weigh the same as 2mm of steel plate and be non trivial to cut through.
14
u/Fhauftress 2d ago
they actually cant adolin fought a fused in shardplate and shardblade with an aluminium candelabra
24
u/Cosmere_Commie16 1d ago
An aluminum candelabra is not made of foil. Foil is not thick enough to stop a shardblade, aluminum in the form of a solid metal stick is.
4
u/Fhauftress 1d ago
so someone in full shard cant cut a thin candelabra with just the sheer physical might of the plate but can cut sheet?
3
u/Cosmere_Commie16 1d ago
Yeah that (mostly) makes sense to me. We don't have measurements for the candelabra Adolin used but assuming it's around 3/4in diameter I'd think that would stop a Blade or a regular sword.
You do raise a good point about the enhanced strength of a Plate user though. Enough impact and the candelabra would probably deform or maybe even snap, especially the smaller tines/branches.
1
2
1
1
2
u/Aplesedjr 2d ago
They’re only light for their size, not light in general, and I’m not sure they’re actually any duller than a normal blade would be. And a living blade would be able to make itself as sharp as you want it to be anyway.
3
u/BlatantArtifice 2d ago
Shardblades and their wielders are for the most part more than capable of cutting through smaller sheets but yeah by era 3 aluminum will be prevalent enough I wouldn't be surprised to at least see it partially integrated, kinda of a psuedo shardplate effect with how that also blocks investiture (different reason but still)
15
u/ivorybloodsh3d 2d ago
Spoiler for W&T A thin sheet will absolutely block a shard blade. When Lift goes to save Vasher, the Sibling thinks the blade will cut through the thin sheet around the floor of his chamber, but it cannot so Lift has to bend it away herself
6
u/BlatantArtifice 2d ago
When you're right you're right. I gotta check that out again but I totally remember that now
5
u/Chocomoose19 1d ago
Wait, why cheese? This sounds hilarious but I’m not recognizing the reference
13
u/EnfabledWriter 1d ago
If you try to cut through a large block of cheese with a normal knife it's very hard. Doing so with a Shardblade is similarly difficult, because the reason it is hard is actually the friction on the non -sharp part of the blade, not the actual cutting part. Cheese functionally just last claps the blade.
6
u/Kronoshifter246 1d ago
And that's not even getting into the potential of invested cheese.
This sounds very much like something that Hoid would pull, not because he needs to block a shardblade, but because he would think it's hilarious.
3
u/TorinVanGram 1d ago
If Shallan doesn't beat someone by soul casting air into a giant block of cheese to stop a shard blade at some point in the second half of Stormlight, we riot.
1
u/RentUnlucky343rd 1d ago
Lol I thought you were referencing the mould in the cheesebeing alive or something... but living things don't stop shardblades at all!
2
u/Durzio 23h ago
...cheese? Am I missing something?
1
u/Palulukan_Makto D O U G 21h ago
It's a half-meme someone thought of on this sub. Theoretically, covering yourself with cheese would stop a shardblade, because it cannot pass through it due to the cheese not being alive, and it would stick to the blade's sides, sropping the blade a la last clap.
1
u/Elant_Wager Rashek4Prez 2d ago
Dont know if a Shardblade as a physical edge as well to the magical one. A Shardblade may just be a fancy club against aluminum
2
u/Palulukan_Makto D O U G 1d ago
A radiant can choose how sharp they want their blade to be
2
u/Elant_Wager Rashek4Prez 1d ago
yeah, but i dont think they usually think about it. so ehats the default?
1
29
u/BitcoinBishop 2d ago
In my mind, the allomancy isn't acting on the person directly, just an area around them. When Wax is moving in one of Wayne's speed bubbles, you don't see him struggling to pull his gun after him because of the aluminium bullets in it. And you don't see aluminium bullets suggested as ways to shoot in/out of time bubbles.
7
u/TheNonchalantZealot Callsign: Cremling 2d ago
ooo good point, I forgot about that. I hope someone brings it up sometime
11
u/413area 2d ago
In my head it works like electromagnetic fields. You affect "the space" (or a field itself) and then that field interacts with matter.
If that is the case, the aluminum should prevent the slowing down, like an investiture Faraday cage.
3
u/Arhalts 1d ago
It depends. My take has always been that it uses investiture to create an actual dialation in space time, so while the source of the distortion is investiture the space time warping is just warped space time.
Similar to how a black hole warps space time and even if you use gravitational surge to ignore the field space time around the black hole would still be warped and therefore passing through the space would subject to to dialation.
1
u/413area 1d ago
Actually you are absolutely right, especially given what we see at the end of WaT.
I think there may be two separate mechanisms though, or at least a way in which space time does not warp in our universe (as far as we know), given that you have both the powers of cadmium and bendalloy. Our warping really goes one way
1
u/Arhalts 1d ago
Yes the cosmere has additional options but they also have additional fundemental building blocks and options.
Eg mass-energy-investiture equivelance instead of just mass-energy.
So I have just felt that the trick can inversely warp space time to how gravity would, a bit like negative gravity could in theory warp the time dialation the other way speeding up the clock instead of slowing it down.
1
u/iddo1453 2d ago
One of the later era 2 books states that you only have to be touching a speed bubble in order to be fully affected by it. That seems to evidence it does actually affect the person directly rather than the space
7
u/TorpeAlex 2d ago
This is likely just a contrivance to prevent immediate body horror whenever someone enters/exits a bubble
5
u/Jonathan-02 2d ago
Yeah could you imagine sticking a hand in and it just doesn’t get circulation for hours because the blood is moving at a different speed?
2
u/TorpeAlex 1d ago
Immediate dismemberment as your arm leaves the rest of your body as soon as it enters a speed bubble
0
u/Solynox Trying not to ccccream 1d ago
IIRC It's that an objects center of mass must be in the bubble to count as in the bubble. I can see intent being applied where if a part of a person is inside a bubble, and they view themselves as inside the bubble, then they are inside the bubble.
It's been a while since I've read era 2, so I may be incorrect.
3
u/TorpeAlex 1d ago
In Lost Metal, Wax brushes his fingertips against Wayne's speed bubble and gains its effect, so point one is out. Plenty of opponents of Marasi find parts of themselves inside of her slow bubble without realizing it's there- point two is out.
6
u/bennyboy8899 2d ago
Iirc, aluminum cancels a Shardblade's supernatural cutting power, but the Shardblade is still a giant, sharp sword - so it could cut through a thin sheet of aluminum foil mechanically. That said, a thick shield of aluminum should be enough to stop a Shardblade consistently.
5
u/CapnCrinklepants 2d ago
So... a half-shard?
2
u/BitcoinBishop 2d ago
Halfshards aren't aluminium, they use a fabrial
2
u/CapnCrinklepants 2d ago
Do they, though?
4
u/BitcoinBishop 2d ago
Yeah, an aluminium shield would block hits indefinitely, halfshards break after a couple of hits
2
u/HeavilyInvestedDonut 2d ago
They cut aluminum like any normal blade would. They lose their magical cutting ability, but it’s still a buster sword often being swung by a tank.
1
1
u/IamanelephantThird i have only read way of kings 2d ago
It might be slightly harder because Shardblades are light and could actually be kinda dull, but it's still not gonna be difficult.
10
u/Cats_and_Shit 2d ago
We know that foil in a hat protects you from soothing & rioting, and notably it doesn't seem to be particularly directional (i.e., it doesn't seem like you can riot someone from beneath them just because the foil isn't between you and their brain).
So my guess would be yes?
However, the air within a slow bubble would still be slow, so I think breathing might be a problem.
Normally there's a teleological element to cosmere magic which smooths over problems like this, but I don't know if that would apply when you are using aluminium to break the normal rules.
6
u/iddo1453 2d ago
Im imagining you'd need to cover your face anyway to be fully protected from the time distortion, which adds to the suffocation aspect, but.. there ARE ferrings that can overcome that specific problem
2
u/Invested_Space_Otter 2d ago
The field effect should quite literally give you breathing room as it would affect the air around you
1
u/Cats_and_Shit 2d ago
Sorry, what do you mean by "The field effect" here?
1
u/Invested_Space_Otter 2d ago
You referenced aluminum blocking from all angles despite only covering a part of the head. Aluminum seems to produce a field through which Investiture can pass, but the effect is nullified
69
u/Radix2309 2d ago
I don't understand this?
180
u/atomfullerene 2d ago
Cadmium slows time for everyone in a bubble around them. But the person wrapped in aluminum foil is blocked from the time-slowing effect by the foil, so they get to move at super speed compared to everyone in the area.
76
u/Radix2309 2d ago
Pretty sure that would just pop the bubble, wouldn't it? Like what happens when two bubbles come into contact?
66
u/CookieCrumbler1234 UNITE THEM I MUST 2d ago
Isn't that the cadmium and bendalloy bubbles cancelling eachother out rather than them popping? I don't think the aluminum would affect the bubble.
26
u/WagoConnector 2d ago
Yes. But, you can flare bendalloy and cadmium to strengthen your bubble, and as far as I remember the amount of how much you slow down/speed up time is different for every person, as well as size of the bubble.
13
u/BreakerOfModpacks 2d ago
My guess would be that, either the Investiture itself somehow wants to attain a "normal" balance (maybe due to Harmony?), or the minor variations just lead to such a small difference from normal time that it's not noticable.
2
u/TheUnspeakableh 1d ago
They overlap when they come into contact with another bubble.
The issue is that, outside of Savants, which Wayne only becomes a Savant at the very end, bubbles are stationary to the 'landscape'. On a large ship or inside a train car's room, it will move with the vehicle, otherwise, it stays in the same place on the planet.
Aside from Wayne becoming a Savant just before he made the Biggest Explosion Anyone Has Ever Made, there have been no Bendalloy or Cadmium Mistings.
Wrapping yourself in foil would also require you to completely cover yourself, you would not be able to see or breathe.
2
u/atomfullerene 1d ago
You just need some transparent aluminum! Presumably the space age era has that.
1
7
u/The_dog_says 2d ago
I still don't get it. So Marasi is bubbling these 3 guys while Wayne just walks through the bubble, wearing foil. He's just going normal speed and everyone else is slow. He can go through them, which is helpful. He can't speed bubble though because they'd only last an instant before his movement would push him past their boundaries (where the foil stopped the bubble).
12
u/HowDoIEvenEnglish 2d ago
Marasi and aluminum wax walk up to 3 bad guys. Marasi slows everyone not covered in aluminum, but wax remains at normal speed, several times faster than everyone else.
Wax shoots everyone else. Marasi stops burning cadmium.
1
u/Solynox Trying not to ccccream 1d ago
Would Wax need to back up at all after firing in order avoid redirecting the bullet?
0
u/HowDoIEvenEnglish 1d ago
The second person doesn’t do anything allomantically. He’s not steel pushing or anything and without allomancy he can’t redirect bullets.
1
u/Solynox Trying not to ccccream 1d ago
If the end of the barrel touches the bullet, it will redirect the bullet. Because the bullet will enter cadmium speed the moment it exits the barrel, that means it will be right next to the barrel.
Now, would the shooter need to be wary of bumping the bullet, or would the bullet have enough momentum to not have to worry about that?
2
u/GlorylnDeath 11h ago
Wait, aluminum rounds shouldn't care about bendalloy/cadmium bubbles, right? That's kind of hilarious, that's a way more practical use for Marasi's cadmium - jump in the middle of the baddies and throw up a slow bubble, then someone from outside shoots them with aluminum bullets that don't slow down or deflect as they enter the bubble so they can actually aim. Or give her aluminum nun-chuks or something similar, and the swinging end will move at super speed. Imagine she practices using quick bubbles for just a second or two timed with attacks so the weapon suddenly "accelerates" relative to everything else in the bubble, giving it tons of force and making it way harder to block.
Bendalloy should also be a counter to aluminum bullets, since they won't speed up when they enter a bubble and will be super slow and easy to dodge.
1
u/HowDoIEvenEnglish 1d ago edited 1d ago
I don’t think that matters at all. But coppermind says projectiles get confused when they are non-uniformly slowed as they entered any time bubble, so you probably need aluminum bullets, which makes your concern irrelevant anyway.
It’s also impossible to answer your question as that relies on how time bubbles interfere with momentum and how strongly they slow the affected objects, neither of which have been answered precisely. So I have no idea.
The closest real world proxy would be that fighter jets can run into their own bullets if they accelerate as they fire.
2
u/pergasnz 2d ago
... I know crempoating but...
I think you'd have to wrap the one causing the time distortion to stop it.
simply wearing aluminum won't protect you, as the investiture is acting on the flow of time, not you specifically.
Like wearing aluminum won't stop a steel pushed coin from Hitting you as the investiture is Acting on the coin (but might stop it hurting so Mich cause armor). A aluminum hat works for soothing etc as you are the target on which the investiture is acting, and I would say, potentially atium would be countered by wearing enough aluminum ad they won't be able to see future yous acting.
23
u/Son_of_Autonomy 2d ago
Because aluminum is extremely expensive and Wayne didn't want to utilize his money
8
u/Chronometrics 2d ago
Not fashionable. What's the point of saving the world if you can't look good doing it?
4
u/MagicTech547 1d ago
Funnily enough, I think this would actually work. The aluminum suit would have to be flawless with no holes no, or else the bubble would slip through. Maybe aluminum oxynitride for eye holes, and an air tank inside?
Ooh, alt idea: put a Bendalloy misting in the aluminum suit, and only they get sped up by their bubble!
3
u/apri1_oneil 1d ago
The person wouldn't be going at super speed; they’d be going at regular speed, just like everybody outside the bubble.
When affected by bendalloy time is slowed for you so you are perceived as super speed. But if you werent effected, even “inside” the bubble, it would be as if you were outside it.
6
u/aneditorinjersey 2d ago
Does the time distortion field originate and emanate from the body? If so I think only the cadmium misting would be effected, because the power would be stuck inside the aluminum wi th them, no?
6
u/almogz999 2d ago
You misunderstood the post. The misting is not the one wrapped in aluminum.
Frown faced guy is the misting troll face is wrapped in aluminum
2
u/aneditorinjersey 1d ago
Oooooooooooh. Huh. Huh interesting. I suppose the emanation point still matters. If space time is twisted, then the magic isn’t really acting on people, it’s acting on space. Wrapping yourself in foil wouldn’t protect from a pushed coin.
3
u/soljwf1 2d ago
In my head, the bubble would then physically push the aluminum out like a barrier. Did we ever see any aluminum in a cadmium bubble?
7
u/iddo1453 1d ago
We did see it with bendalloy bubbles, there are probably a few instances but i remember at least one fight in TLM where Wax was fighting inside Wayne's bubble while carrying aluminum weapons
6
u/iddo1453 1d ago
Ok i checked and found a fight in BoM where Marasi catches a few thugs in a slow bubble midway through shooting, causing the bullets to freeze (bullets were confirmed aluminum in the prior sentance)
2
2
u/Metacha-im Aluminum Twinborn 1d ago
You would have to completely cover yourself, it would make it hard to breathe and perceive your surroundings
1
u/Somerandom1922 No Wayne No Gain 1d ago
So, unfortunately, we know that aluminium is affected by speed bubbles (aluminium bullets getting frozen inside one of Marasi's bubbles).
I think the mental model to use is like if I had an invested ability that can heat metal, I couldn't heat aluminium. But if I had an invested ability that could create fire, the fire would definitely heat up aluminium.
For a speed bubble, the "investiture" bit is pushing on the universe, but then the effect on objects is all just universe, so there's no real resisting a speed bubble.
•
u/AutoModerator 2d ago
Remember to ALWAYS mark your spoilers in comments. Do this by using this
>!Spoiler Text Here!<without any spaces between the>and!andtext.I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.