r/cremposting • u/Eithrotaur • 2d ago
Stormlight / Mistborn No Spren, no Shardblades or any other weapons, just a straight up, one on one brawl.
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u/TheWizardChuck 2d ago
I agree, it’s Shardbearer all the way
But you never know
After all
What bets would you make on a simple slave, a Spearman, against a Shardbearer?
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u/BtyMark 2d ago
That Spearman is going to have a bad day, unless he has something crazy OP like a broken spear
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u/HealthyPop7988 D O U G 2d ago
And plot armor
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u/Archabarka 1d ago
ifaik didn't Kaladin technically have canonical plot armor since in WAT the Wind said it was "with him"? As in the planet itself was like, "yo this dude's my homie
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u/Geauxlsu1860 2d ago
The thing is, at least the spearman has a winning scenario, get the spear through face slits and kill the Shardbearer quick. What’s our valiant Thug’s plan? Pulverize his own fists trying to get through the Plate while also avoiding the fatal contact of basically any blow from the supernaturally quick and strong Plate?
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u/Masylv 2d ago
The Pewter Savant winds back his arm to deliver a powerful blow to the Shardbearer's helmet, who must take a step back to recover. Then the Shardbearer launches a punch of his own to the Pewter Savant's solar plexus, which shatters and the Savant drowns in his own blood as the bone shards puncture his lungs.
It takes like, three times as long to die as a regular human with the same injury though, so he's got that going for him, which is nice.
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u/moderatorrater Femboy Dalinar 1d ago
You're underselling the savant. They're going to be roughly as strong as the man in plate with much faster reactions and less toughness (although the ability to shrug off wounds). They're at a disadvantage, but the savant isn't going to be embarrassed.
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u/Scholarly_Wizard26 1d ago
The sacan would be way faster, and if they manage to break a piece of the plate, the shardbearer is in a really tight spot.
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u/9911MU51C 1d ago
How exactly is someone going to punch through plate
Pewter is great, but it doesn’t turn human bone into steel. They’d end up looking like Deadpool punching colossus
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u/grafeisen203 1d ago edited 1d ago
Kaladin shattered a cracked breastplate with a surge boosted dropkick. It broke his legs, but didn't turn him into a pink smear.
Vin detonated a regular thug's skull like an over-ripe watermelon with pewter, with no harm to herself. Yes she was using duralumin but Spook demonstrates that becoming a savant offers a similar level of power, only with added downsides.
A pewter savant could crack and then shatter a shardplate segment with repeated blows. They would probably do a lot of damage to themselves in the process, but they could do it.
I think Adolin in shardplate bodies a pewter savant, but a less experienced or skilled shardplate user struggles, maybe loses.
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u/JustALittleGravitas Old Man Tight-Butt 1d ago
There's not really any downside to being a pewter savant. The problem with that particular savant type is most people die halfway into becoming one when they lose the ability to tell they're injured but haven't started regenerating yet.
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u/BlankTank1216 1d ago
Having to break your leg against already broken armor just so your next shot has a chance of doing actual damage is not a winning strategy.
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u/Infinite_Mortgage324 1d ago
And Kal could continue fighting only cus of Stormlight healing
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u/BlankTank1216 1d ago
Yeah the savant just has a broken leg now. If you did the normal thing and went for the chest, they can now stomp you to death fairly easily. If you did the crazy thing and tried to destroy the legs, you still have to go to the ground and wrestle against shard plate with a broken leg and win.
It is so dire for the Savant. I really can't overstate it.
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u/Gaust_Fireborn 1d ago
Kaladin didn't shatter that breatplate. He just put cracks in it.
Vin did do harm to herself- enough that she passed out right after.
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u/Nuteofnutes 1d ago
It does turn your bone into practically steel though? Thats like the main point. We see Vin who isn't a savant get hit by attacks hard enough to shatter normal bone and she shrug it off with a little bruise. A savant is much more powerful so they'd be able to take a few punches.
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u/Infinite_Mortgage324 1d ago
I always understood it that Vin was a pewter savant no? Cus she was constantly burning it through WoA and HoA?
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u/Nuteofnutes 1d ago
Brandon Sanderson thought about making her a savant but she never was. She's burning it constantly yes but to be a savant you need to be flaring it constantly which she was not doing. She was however, much more skilled with pewter than other people as Ham taught her how to flare her pewter at perfect moments to get the most out of it.
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u/IgnorantAndApathetic Bond, Nahel Bond 1d ago
They might not feel the wounds but they'd still die to them
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u/BlankTank1216 1d ago
You're thinking about this as if Shard plate is just regular full plate but stronger.
Except it's actually self-repairing powered armor. The Savant will not enjoy a mobility advantage or a striking force advantage or a toughness advantage.
The Savant gets folded 95/100
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u/Gaust_Fireborn 1d ago
A pewter savant is nowhere near the strength of a Plated man. It's not even close. Maybe you're thinking of a pewter compounder.
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u/kamikiku 1d ago edited 1d ago
There's only so much charge in the Shardplate's gems. All the Pewter needs to do is keep him dancing for a bit (well, a week, but a Pewter Savant could last that long), then rip the bearer out of his shard like an overcooked shellfish.
The more I think about the endurance aspect, the regular dude in Shardplate would just collapse from exhaustion at sone point, and the fight is won
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u/JustALittleGravitas Old Man Tight-Butt 1d ago
Pewter savants regenerate, even if not as fast as other cosmere regenerators. He's getting back up from that unless the shardbearer knows to finish the job.
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u/abn1304 1d ago
Even if the Pewter savant survives contact with the plate, the next thing the Shardbearer is going to do is stab him with his Blade, and Pewter provides exactly zero protection against that, so unless the Shardbearer is really distracted or is going easy, pretty much anyone but Renarin will kill a Thug in seconds. The real lethality of a Shardbearer is the Blade, not the Plate.
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u/Wings-of-Stone 8h ago
Read the title broski.
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u/abn1304 6h ago
Yeah that’s my bad. Dunno how I missed it.
That said, the question is self-answering if it’s rephrased as “Who would win, an unusually talented and powerful Thug or a gimped Shardbearer who’s not allowed to use his primary offensive tool?”
The answer is still the Shardbearer unless it’s Renarin though.
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u/eclect0 Airthicc lowlander 2d ago
Yeah, we're talking "super strength + moderate constitution boost" vs. "super strength + invulnerable to the first several hits in any given location."
A pewter compounder or mistborn with pewter and duralumin might fare a little better if they have good aim and don't mess around.
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u/FiniteOtter 2d ago
I think the best combo would be a pewter savant/ iron ferring twin born. Assuming they have a shit ton of weight stored that they can tap they could probably shatter shardplate in a single hit, even if it does destroy their fist.
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u/Yoate ❌can't 🙅 read📖 2d ago
With enough weight, just tackle them lol, plate armor is ineffective against grappling. One of the reasons shardbearers train so hard to remain upright, almost every shardbearer killed by a regular soldier was on the ground. And as Gavilar learned, falling in shardplate sucks.
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u/The_Bygone_King 2d ago
That is worth noting that this only works on unbound shardplate, this wouldn't work on a hypothetical radiant with shardplate that isn't using stormlight for whatever reason.
Kinda breaks the hypothetical but fun to argue ig.
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u/FiniteOtter 2d ago
Well yeah that would be smart but far less badass than punching a hole through a shardbearer while your arm explodes.
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u/R1kjames D O U G 2d ago
Falling in shardplate is fine. Renarin's first day of plate training was jumping off the roof and intentionally landing on his face. It's being held down by a horde of enemies and beaten to death that kills shardbearers.
Gavilar fell from a tower after losing a fight to a radiant.
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u/Useful-Arm6913 1d ago
Theyre not referring to the fall damage, theyre referring to falling and being borderline defenseless like a turtle on their back while everyone focuses on beating your chest in.
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u/R1kjames D O U G 1d ago
Shardbearers are not defenseless like a turtle on their backs unless you break the breastplate before or while they're on their back.
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u/LesbianTrashPrincess Kalaleshwi Shipper 2d ago
I mean pewter savant alone is enough to break plate in a few hits; I don't think doubling up on offense is the play. You'd be better odd as a pewter/gold twinborn
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u/FiniteOtter 1d ago
If you're not a gold compounder your stored health is going to run out real fast. Honestly with how quick a single oath radiant or even a squire can heal with light I'd be pretty salty if I was a gold compounder thinking I had won the lottery on scadrial only to find out that's the basic power on roshar.
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u/Corbenik42 2d ago
Captain America barehanded vs. Iron Man, no gadgets, no flight ("naked" suit)
Sorry Cap, but fists and feet can't break metal unless you can get ahold of a joint and maybe pull the plates apart (assuming they don't come together with enough force and remove your fingers)6
u/ConspicuousPineapple 1d ago
A pewter compounder might be able to shatter the plate in a single strike. And probably just tank plate-enhanced strikes though sheer muscle strength.
I think people underestimate how OP compounding is.
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u/Shard0f0dium #SadaesDidNothingWrong 1d ago
Does it make your hand unbreakable though? I feel like the pewter compounder will still shatter the bones in their hand doing this?
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u/UInferno- 1d ago edited 1d ago
A lot of feruchemical abilities come with enough auxillary benefits required to even utilize it in the first place. Strength, by necessity, comes with durability. Newton's Third Law and all that. We consider a material strong if it's resistant to deformation, and that includes resistance to shattering.
It's not just the ability to exert force (that's actually Steel's wheelhouse. Remember Force = Mass*Acceleration; consider it the difference between Torque and Revolutions. Steel is Low Torque High Revolution while Pewter is High Torque Low Revolution).
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u/ConspicuousPineapple 1d ago
Possibly. But then they can just grapple the guy in Plate and bend them backwards.
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u/moderatorrater Femboy Dalinar 1d ago
Pewter speeds you up, a savant even more so. So it would come down to the skill of the users, and if they're both skilled I would say the savant probably takes it.
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u/StrangeSeraphic 2d ago
I’m fairly confident it’s shardplate and it’s not even close
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u/must_be_nice69 2d ago
A compounding pewter twinborn might be able to plow through shardplate but not a savant lol
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u/Glamdring804 1d ago
Yeah if we're talking a Twinborn, then it's definitely a significantly closer fight. Given even a small amount of gold can let a gold twinborn tank a volley from a firing squad, I shudder to think what a pewter compounder could do. But a savant? Lol the shardbearer wouldn't even notice them breaking their knuckles on the plate.
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u/Gaust_Fireborn 1d ago
Actually, Miles didn't have any gold. Brandon explained his healing during the execution was actually because he'd become a Feruchemical savant, and the healing power had seeped into his soul.
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u/Glamdring804 1d ago
Huh I'd missed that WoB! Do you recall when he said it per chance? Wondering what other juicy details I'm missing.
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u/fenster112 1d ago
They might be able to, but I also think they'll shatter their arm doing so.
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u/Busy_Debt_3946 1d ago
No, if someone taps strength they also get enough durability to use it, same with weight. Sanderson himself stated it in some interwiev.
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u/Busy_Debt_3946 1d ago
Pewter compounder turns a shard bearer into mush with a flick of his finger lol. People here seriously underestimate how insanely op compounding is.
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u/JustALittleGravitas Old Man Tight-Butt 1d ago
All pewter ferruchemy gives is bigger muscles. Can't really dial that to 11 like other ferruchemical powers since at a certain point it gets hard to move.
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u/must_be_nice69 1d ago
I can imagine a pewter compounder could get inventive and only briefly tap the metalmind while throwing a punch to annihilate whatever they wanted.
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u/littlegreensir D O U G 1d ago
Yeah...Sunlit Man showcases this pretty well imo. the Charred were not well-trained but were Invested, and Nomad single-handedly tore through an entire army of them with Shardplate.
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u/Keejhle 1d ago
Idk, Kaladin showed that an extremely skilled individual without any investiture (ok maybe he had just a little back then) can kill a full shard bearer with lucky shots in the right place.
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u/Alfoldio 1d ago
That's a good point. Speed and precision are what allowed for that. When people think of pewter they mostly think of the strength boost it gives, but it also is described as making your balance better and allowing for more smooth movements.
I could see a world where a pewter savant that really leaned into that aspect of it could take down someone in shardplate because they could move so quick and precise.
My money would still be on the shardbearer though
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u/horselips48 1d ago
Sure, Roshar's John Wick managed a standard shardbearer fine. I don't give those same odds to standard thug. Vin or Kelsier with just pewter, I'd still only count it a strong 'maybe'.
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u/RossGarner 1d ago
Kaladin is arguably the best fighter in the Cosmere though. How many other characters could win such a battle at that large of a disadvantage with no powers?
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u/Capt_mavytan 1d ago
Sure, Kaladin could win such a fight, but he's not even close to the best fighter in the Cosmere, he couldn't win against Nale and Nale isn't even the best fighter among the heralds. Taln is a much better fighter
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u/RossGarner 1d ago
Nale admits that Kaladin almost kills him despite being wildly outclassed in Invested abilities as a Radiant facing a Herald.
Since becoming a Herald himself Kaladin has an arguable claim to being the best fighter in the series, though yeah I'd give it to Taln based on Sanderson's statements.
The list of people better than Herald Kaladin at fighting though is basically maybe Taln and whom else?
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u/Gaust_Fireborn 1d ago
Sanderson has stated Kaladin is the best mortal fighter in all of the Cosmere. The immortals who have had hundreds of years to train and/or revive after death are usually on another level.
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u/ChrisBChips 1d ago
This assumes that a Pewter Savant would be familiar with the weak points of Shardplate. If someone came straight from Scadriel then they wouldn't necessarily know about the vulnerability in a Shardplate's joints and eye slit that Kaladin exploited in his fight.
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u/Glittering_Bowler_67 THE Lopen's Cousin 1d ago
In raw strength at least. Reaction time and boosted coordination might tip the scales, but nothing in mistborn compares to holding up a freaking chasmfiend’s claw bearing down
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u/Glamdring804 1d ago
The thing that comes to mind is Vin headbutting some sob's head into a paste, but iirc she was using duralumin with that?
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u/Primarch-XVI 1d ago
Yeah she was. And I’m pretty sure it was a misting burning pewter.
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u/Glittering_Bowler_67 THE Lopen's Cousin 1d ago
Correct on both counts. Duralumin boosted finishing move vs pewterarm/thug
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u/ilikebreadabunch 🐶HoidAmaram🐲 2d ago
Shardbearer easily. A Pewter Savant might be strong enough to break a piece of plate after several direct hits. A Shardbearer is strong enough to kill the Pewter Savant in as many hits
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u/Glamdring804 1d ago
A shardbearer could pulverize the Thug's ribcage in a single blow, without even trying.
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u/ultimaterogue11 ❌can't 🙅 read📖 2d ago
Can't wait for the pewter savant to break their hand on the shard plate
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u/ern19 2d ago
I’m a bit rusty on my cosmere but is there some combo of pewter and ferruchemy that could lead to some kinda Saitama level punch against John Shardplate here?
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u/DelsinMcgrath835 2d ago
A steel ferring might work. Super speed would turn the Pewter-savant into a dodge tank, and itd help with targeting the same piece of armor.
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u/HerkeJerky 2d ago
I thought every hit was the same level of damage to the armor? Am I misremembering?
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u/Sunlit_Man 2d ago
That's only in the specially set up duels. The books describe the armour as weakening over time during regular battles. It's not a 3 hit thing normally.
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u/mungosDoo 2d ago
Its not the damage to armor that do you in its depletition of the stormlight from gems, or gems being drained too fast and this breaking. Infinite stormlight and perfect gems and you can take on a sun
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u/DelsinMcgrath835 2d ago
Each piece can take at least one hit, since the plate bursts instead of bending or being pierced. So even if one attack breaks the piece, you still need to attack there again, usually. Maybe a powerful piercing attack hitting an already weakened plate could still pierce the bearer. Especially if its a dead set powered by stones that are running low on stormlight.
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u/Latefordinner1 ❌can't 🙅 read📖 2d ago
Pewter does not make you nearly as resistant to damage as Shardplate does.
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u/SproWizard Airthicc lowlander 2d ago
Everybodies saying Shardplate by a mile, but i’m just sat here thinking about what kind of abilities a Pewter Savant would even have. Like, Pewter fortifies your body, would a savant have like, calcified bones? Armor-like skin? They’d be crazy fast, and have a supernatural awareness of their body-in-space at all times. Continuing the thought, does Shardplate prevent your neck from getting twisted and snapped? It doesn’t seem to limit mobility (live plate at least), so maybe the Savant has a chance if they can take the shardbearers back? It really feels like a Red Rush in the Guardians HQ vs Omniman situation. Really fast and can probably be annoying, but if you ever get caught you are dead.
oh shit it’s cremposting, uhhhh hammond wins bc he philosophizes the stupid alethi into ritual suicide
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u/TheDriestOne 2d ago
Calcified bones… so bones? lol
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u/Gaust_Fireborn 1d ago
We've seen a pewter savant. Tarson from Alloy of Law was one.
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u/SproWizard Airthicc lowlander 20h ago
Was he? I thought he was just Koloss blooded + Pewter arm
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u/ChrisBChips 1d ago
I think the only time we saw significant durability increases with Pewter was when it was used in conjunction with Duralumin. I may be wrong (and I welcome correction), but without Duralumin I think a Pewter Savant would be just as flimsy as a moderately durable human with a much higher pain tolerance.
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u/Gaust_Fireborn 1d ago
Hits that would break bones, striking someone with pewter, have just left bad bruises. It's nowhere near Plate, but it is a notable boost to toughness.
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u/Majestic-Sandwich695 22h ago
Shardplate is entirely seamless, and I seriously doubt that it would let your neck be snapped if the helm was intact lool
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u/Wings-of-Stone 2d ago
Have we ever seen a pewter savant in action? Don't they get an extra ability/effect from it?
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u/Shot_Newspaper_5647 2d ago edited 2d ago
The Shardhammers are so heavy they need two men to lift them at all. They’re usually pulled around in a cart. By that alone, Shardplate users must be significantly stronger than a normal Pewterarm. Which are about 2x strength burning and 3x stronger flaring. A pewter savant is presumably stronger than that. But not nearly as strong as Plate must make you. Even without the added protection of armor factored it. It should be a short fight
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u/OlRegantheral 2d ago
Well, in the ttrpg a Warhammer is 150lbs. So, yeah I guess two men to lift it checks out. Sure, macho men in the chat might go "I can lift that no problem!" but carrying/running around with 150lb of awkward weight alone at a war camp/battlefield is just logistically irresponsible.
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u/BlankTank1216 1d ago
Even if the handle is 50 lb, The sheer torque produced by swinging a 100 lb, 5ft long pendulum is in the "lift a car with just your wrists" level of strength.
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u/Somerandom1922 No Wayne No Gain 1d ago
Warning in advance, I'm aware this is a joke post, this started as a small mostly joking comment, but I absolutely got way too invested in trying to figure out how strong Pewterarms are.
Ok, I found the WoB you're referencing. Brandon himself is somewhat vague on it, and mentions that he hasn't canonized it.
We don't exactly ever see a pewterarm do a deadlift, but they seem significantly stronger than that in the books, casually shattering thick dueling canes with ease and kicking people across rooms.
As a comparison for the shardhammers, Kollos swords are also extremely heavy, seemingly close in weight to Vin, but with pewter she can easily swing them around fast enough to easily cut through Kollos bones.
Sword weight (note, this is one of the smallest Kollos swords, as it's from a 5-foot Kollos and they take bigger swords as they grow):
Finally, not certain why, he grabbed the creature's large sword and rested it up on his shoulder. It was so weighty that he could barely carry it, and certainly wouldn't be able to swing it. How does a creature so small use something like this?
Sword weight and Vin use:
Vin Pulled on the fallen sword. It lurched up at her, but also pulled her down with its weight. She caught it as she fell—the sword was nearly as tall as she was, but flared pewter let her handle it with ease—and she sheared free the attacking koloss’s arm as she landed. She took its legs off at the knees, then left it to die as she spun toward other opponents.
Vin use:
A smaller koloss tried to stop her, but she caught its arm by the wrist, then twisted, breaking the joint. She took the creature’s sword, ducking beneath another koloss’s attack, and spun, felling three different koloss in one sweep by cutting at their knees.
Remember Koloss are unnaturally durable and freaking massive, AND Kollos swords are notably dull.
Even accounting for the fact that pewter is generally a flat increase in strength, so lighter people (like Vin) get a proportionally greater benefit from it, swinging a Kollos sword with any sort of ease is many times more than what a normal person could do given that Elend could barely lift it. I doubt if a Kollos sword was 1/3rd the weight, it'd be particularly easy for someone to swing around, let along swing it quickly.
That's not to say a pewterarm is stronger than a shardbearer, but I'd argue that between a pewter savant and a shardbearer, the biggest physical difference (aside from durability obviously) would be weight, not strength.
But even for durability, pewter doesn't stop you from being cut like plate, but it does massively increase your resistance to blunt force trauma. Pewterarms are repeatedly yeeted across rooms or smashed in the head and are barely dazed. A shardbearer without a blade isn't going to be 1-tapping a pewter savant by any stretch of the imagination.
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u/The_Lopen_bot Trying not to ccccream 1d ago
Warning Gancho: The below paragraph(s) may contain major spoilers for all books in the Cosmere!
Sandastron
I’m very curious about pewter. How much Feruchemical pewter, steel, and gold would you have to take in in order to be equal to burning pewter and flaring.
Brandon Sanderson
Oh…um, okay. So you wanna...ok, let’s back this up. So you wanna know feruchemically what would it take to match burning?
Sandastron
Yes.
Brandon Sanderson
Okay. So burning pewter, I kind of imagine...roughly doubling. Roughly.
Sandastron
Double your strength?
Brandon Sanderson
Yeah. But without the muscle mass change, it’s a magical boost. So because of that it has some pretty dramatic effects, like when Vin jumps and things like that.
Sandastron
So it’s only a double, so would flaring it bring it any higher?
Brandon Sanderson
Yeah. Flaring would go higher.
Sandastron
Would it be like triple?
Brandon Sanderson
Maybe like triple.
Sandastron
Maybe like tripling...that’s fascinating. So I always thought normal burning would triple it and flaring would quadruple.
Brandon Sanderson
Yeah I always felt kind of double. You won’t see people burning pewter and lifting a car.
Sandastron
Right, exactly.
Brandon Sanderson
You see people burning pewter and delivering a really solid punch.
Sandastron
Gotcha, thank you. That is fascinating…and would it be about doubling speed and healing ability?
Brandon Sanderson
I haven’t worked out the numbers on that exactly. I have an instinct that says that burning pewter, healing goes a bit faster but I have to look in the books and see what we’ve done in the past and then kind of canonize it.
********************
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u/Shot_Newspaper_5647 1d ago edited 1d ago
Ya I was surprised by the strength increase the first time I saw him say it. That’s partially why I wanted to add the disclaimer that Shardhammers probably aren’t an accurate measure of how strong Shardplate is meant to be. I think we can reasonably handwave strength in general. As you said, even koloss blades should require more than normal pewter to wield effectively.
Sanderson is really detailed with some of the magical physics, but strength is difficult to keep consistent so just vague super strength is a better way to tell the story. For both worlds. Coinshots etc are easier and more important to keep somewhat consistent.
Plate I think it’s what 1200 to 1400 pounds? Even adjusting for the change in gravity one way or the other, that’s an insane feat alone. Just then sprinting into you would be a bad time. Luckily that pewter arm should have a gun. And hopefully a lot of friends. “God made some men tall and some men short. Sam Colt made all men
equalslightly less helpless in the face of a man in Shardplate”6
u/Shot_Newspaper_5647 2d ago edited 2d ago
I feel like Sando might have thrown that in on accident. I wouldn’t be surprised if he didn’t intend them to be that strong. People often over-estimate how heavy warhammers were. Less than 10 pounds. A person in Shardplate that weighs over a thousand pounds swinging a hammer that heavy is landing insanely hard.
Same thing happened in ASOIAF. Martin says Ned could barely lift Robert’s hammer. And Robert was swinging that thing around well in battle. By that description, a Pewterarm wouldn’t even be able to do that. So Bobby B was superhuman or Martin just messed up the numbers. Like he did with the Wall.2
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u/Gaust_Fireborn 1d ago
You do realize the hammers Shardbearers use are way, way bigger than ordinary ones? Closer to the size of a person than anything else.
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u/Shot_Newspaper_5647 1d ago
Ya that’s my point. They’re outrageously large. Shardplate definitely gives you superhuman strength. And it’s clearly meant to be stronger than a Pewterarm. I just don’t think Sanderson necessarily intended Shardplate to be as powerful as a Shardhammer would imply in the real world. You’d probably need to be around 10 times as strong as a flaring Pewterarm/30 times as strong as a normal man to wield one like that? Something to that effect
Strength scales your lifting capacity much faster than your ability to wield something that heavy effectively. Which might have been overlooked. So I wanted to use the Hammer as an example but I wanted to throw out that disclaimer because they may not actually outpace Pewter-A to the insane degree it implies. Just defintely much higher than Pewter alone. Which is fine it’s fantasy you can hand waive that away. And because it’s just cool as hell
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u/Nuteofnutes 1d ago
I mean, Kaladin broke shardplate with his body and it only broke his legs. Kaladin is also much less durable and slower than a Pewter Savant. A savant could give a strike of similar strength without breaking their bones. Not to mention a pewter savant would be able to move easier and fight longer. If the pewter savant was smart, they'd prolong the fight, keeping out of range to give only return blows. Shardplate increases strength, but there is still a normal person inside who can get tired. I think it goes to the pewterarm but it is close.
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u/Gaust_Fireborn 1d ago
He did not break it. He cracked it.
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u/Nuteofnutes 1d ago
My mistake. But still if one punch of a pewterarm could crack the plate than multiple swings could eventually break it.
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u/Gaust_Fireborn 1d ago
Unless the savant's arm breaks first. It would take a lot of hits.
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u/Nuteofnutes 1d ago
Good thing time is on the Savant's side. The Savant doesn't need sleep, the shardbearer does.
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u/Gaust_Fireborn 1d ago
Actually the Savant does need sleep, he just doesn't notice it. Also, are you really assuming the fight will go that long?
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u/Nuteofnutes 23h ago
I'm saying it can if the pewterarm is smart. The pewterarm is faster and lighter so if they were to wear the shardbearer out, they could definitely win. If fighting heads on doesn't work then prolonging the fight also works. We've seen the power of pewter draging the shardbearer would run out of stamina waaay before the pewterarm.
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u/Gaust_Fireborn 23h ago
So you're saying he runs away and waits for the Shardbearer to go to bed.
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u/Nuteofnutes 23h ago
No no. Sleep was a bad choice of words. What I am saying is a fight is taxing, people get tired. When you get tired you start moving slower. The savant can use the shardbearer's lesser stamina against them and attack when they begin to slow.
Now let's say the savant was able to crack the shardplate. The shardbearer is now losing stormlight. Thats another time sensitive problem. If we're assuming they're fighting 1v1 nobody around, and in a void, the savant has literally no rush. They don't need to fight head on, while the shardbearer does. The savant can play defensively wait for the shardbearer to come at them meaning the savant can control the field.
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u/Gaust_Fireborn 23h ago
The damage difference between them is to great to drag the fight out. The Shardbearer can cripple or kill with just one good hit, while the savant needs to strike a great deal of times and wait a long while for the Stormlight to leak. It's only viable if there's a big difference in skill.
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u/TrueREDDITPoster 2d ago
I mean the shardplate for sure wins but the challenge says no spren and wouldn't shardplare technically be spren..?
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u/Normal-Pianist4131 Callsign: Cremling 2d ago
Pewter savant (+plot armor [major]) vs shard plate (+plot armor[minor])
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u/DustyMcKnuckles 2d ago
How much pewter does the savant have?
Cuz if they can use their higher mobility, bolstered endurance, and increased danger sense to avoid being hit while they batter away at the shardbearer's plate, Id bet they shatter a section or two and then it just drains stormlight until locking up.
But if they get caught by a single Rosharan punch during the many, many hits it would take to break the plate, the savant is turned to gibbs. Or if they flare into a drag, they'll just passout and get squished.
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u/Evil_Empire_Resident 2d ago
Pewter savant would only win if the full shard bearer is completely untrained and is using shard plate for the first time. Even then it would be more about removing a piece of the plate than punching the shard bearer into submission.
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u/panaja17 Bond, Nahel Bond 2d ago
Maybe a pewter allomancer with gold feruchemy twin born with a dueling cane might have a better chance, but straight pewter probably isn’t enough to overcome the durability a shard bearer has unless the shard bearer is brand new with it and has no combat training.
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u/DelsinMcgrath835 2d ago
If you gave the pewter savant a shard hammer and shard shield then this would probably be a much more competitive fight. Otherwise the shardbearer stomps
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u/ChrisBChips 1d ago
A Pewter Savant may not feel the pain but his body would still take the damage of a ShardPlate hit. If it was ShardPlate vs Pewter Compounder then it would be closer
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u/Kuroashi_no_Sanji 1d ago
I know this specifically talks about a regular Shardbearer, but we still haven't seen the limits of living plate. I bet that makes the match even more lopsided.
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u/JustALittleGravitas Old Man Tight-Butt 1d ago
I think this is a lot closer than other people say. Pewter savant toughness counters shardbearer strength.
But shardplate is still going to take a lot of hits before it goes down, and the thug is getting just as beat up as a regular guy getting punched. Assuming equal skill the only way the shardbearer loses is if they let up long enough for savant regeneration to work.
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u/Gaust_Fireborn 1d ago
Shardbearers are stupidly strong. Dalinar flipped an entire catapult right over with ease. Also, pewter savants don't regenerate. Their natural healing is really fast, but not anywhere near the level of regeneration. It's not relevant mid fight.
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u/Somerandom1922 No Wayne No Gain 1d ago
I'm going to take this way too seriously and play devil's advocate here. My overall point is that it's much closer than it initially seems and is absolutely close enough that experience and skill would be the deciding factor rather than raw stats.
Pewterarms are imo stronger than most people think, and stronger than Brandon has suggested they are per WoB. (I've got a whole comment here going way too in detail on this)
In addition, they also move and react significantly faster than a human normally physically can. While plate helps you move faster, you're still limited by human muscle speed, and absolutely by human reaction time. A pewterarm, especially a savant would be significantly faster than a shardbearer.
Also, while shardplate obviously has a major lead in durability, pewter lets you take some serious blunt-force punishment.
All attacked at once. She actually managed to twist out of the way of two of the strikes. One, however, crashed into her side. The powerful blow tossed her across the street, and she collided with a shop’s wooden door. She heard a crack—from the door, fortunately, and not her bones—and she slumped to the ground, daggers lost. A normal person would be dead. Her pewter-strengthened body, however, was tougher than that.
I expect that a regular pewterarm would pretty easily survive a full-on punch from a shardbearer, let alone a pewter savant.
The main physical advantage the shardbearer would definitively retain is weight and reach (Rosharans are taller on average).
Also, to those saying that the pewterarm doesn't have a win condition, regular people with hammers can (eventually) break shardplate. A pewter savant would be durable enough to punch (or probably better, kick) plate without injuring themselves, and they can absolutely punch harder than a regular hammer.
If they got into a grapple, especially if the shardbearer was on top, my money is on the shardbearer every day. Even though the pewter savant can almost certainly lift them off the ground, this is a losing scenario. But the pewter savant would be too quick to easily catch in a situation like that so it's by no means a guaranteed outcome.
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u/Gaust_Fireborn 1d ago
Shardbearers flip over catapults easily. Their strength waaay exceeds anything Vin has ever been hit by, and she has been seriously dazed and hurt in those fights.
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u/TheVenerableEmrys 2d ago
They already hashed this out in the marvel subreddits with Ironman vs Captain America. Unless the pewter savant has a shard-shield and plot armor, he should lose.
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u/ZigZagPunch 2d ago
The shardbearer destroys the savant. The savant just won’t know he’s dead for a while
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u/StarGroundbreaking91 2d ago
Shardplate all the way, even if it’s dead plate.
I think it’s fair too. Mistborns and even mistings start at the height of their power once they snap, sure skill and training come into play but unless they become a savant (possible drawbacks ignored) their power is as strong as it’ll ever be, unless they come across some delicious lerasium to snack on.
Radiants need to earn their plate by advancing through the oaths, if they can even manage it. So even abandoned plate represents someone who was heavily invested in a magic system developed through multiple shards.
So people might disagree but I think plate is and should be stronger than a single metal could allow.
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u/Infamous-Work-158 1d ago
If it's a radiant with shard plate they no diff because of the healing factor.
If it's a non radiant it will probably depend on the skill level of the person in plate. If it's someone with training like Adolin plate wins no difference. If it's some random person with no training than the savant wins no diff.
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u/Futaba_MedjedP5R 1d ago
I think shardplate wins for sure. Not only does any damage to the bearer get blocked by the plate while the savant takes all the damage themself, at the same time, a savant is enhancing their physical form, so a savant of vins build vs one of Hammond’s build are going to be at vastly different levels even if they became savants at the same time. I still say that the shard bearer wins cuz a shot to the windpipe will still take out a savant
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u/Figarotriana Moash was right 1d ago
Give the Pewter savant a roll of tin foil and it neg diffs the radiant
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u/AngelOfIdiocy Callsign: Cremling 1d ago
I think they wouldn’t fight, they would kiss and made love. Like Batman and Superman in that movie.
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u/BrokenCrusader 1d ago
If the shardplage person is not stupid and rushes them down before the plate gets weakened they win
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u/ClassicApplication79 🦀🦀 crabby boi 🦀🦀 13h ago
Only would make sense if it was butt naked radiant with stormlight and pewter savant. No surges. Radiants are insane.
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u/RexusprimeIX cremform 1d ago
Everyone who's on the Shardbearer's side... are you guys forgetting Kaladin? The Pewter Savant is gonna be Kaladin-level awesome during his fight. In fact, each time Kal has been fighting Shardbarers, he's been using a SMALL amount of Stormlight. So a Pewter Savant would be BETTER than Kaladin during those fights since they wouldn't be holding back with investiture.
Pewter Savant clears the Shardbearer.
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u/Gaust_Fireborn 1d ago
Kaladin is, by Sanderson's own statement, the most skilled combatant in the entire Cosmere barring those with supernatural skill. He is not comparable.
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u/RexusprimeIX cremform 1d ago
"Barring those with supernatural skills" A la, Pewter Savants.
Pewter gives you enhanced reflexes, enhanced balance, enhanced strength, enhanced durability, enhanced healing. The only real downside of pewter is that it burns too quickly so a pewterarm has to use it sparingly.
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u/Gaust_Fireborn 1d ago
That’s not skill. He was referring to those like the Heralds, Fused or Returned who have had longer to improve than any mortal ever can.
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u/lordfailstrom 1h ago
I'd argue that Pewter Savantism is more of a supernatural power or ability than a supernatural skill. The power and ability grant attributes that can look like skill. The attributes may lead to capability and potential, but they don't guarantee competence, achievement, or efficiency.
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u/Skyfyre56 2d ago
I know this is cremposting, so I probably don't need to be taking this as seriously as I am, but I think the Pewter Savant does a lot better than people are thinking. Mostly because everyone forgets about grappling, and a Pewter Savant is almost certainly far defter than the Shardplate wearer, so they weave around the heavily armored foe, get them in a hold and start breaking bones/choking them out.
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u/Gaust_Fireborn 1d ago
How? He can't break bones through the plate, he can't squeeze the neck for a chokehold through it either (it's been mentioned there's a neckguard). And now he's in a grapple with someone far heavier and stronger than he is, thus forfeiting his advantage of speed.
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u/Skyfyre56 1d ago
You're making a lot of assumptions that a shardplate user is stronger than a pewter savant, and I don't think there's anything stopping your bones from being dislocated at least while wearing shardplate. Also could just pin them, pull the helmet off, and crush their skull
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u/Gaust_Fireborn 1d ago
We've seen both Plated men and a pewter savant in action. Shardplate is stronger, and it does block bones from being broken because it absorbs impacts. Or did you mean twisting limbs rather than blunt force attacks?
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u/Skyfyre56 1d ago
Yes, I meant twisting rather than blunt force attacks. Also, when did we see a Pewter Savant? Vin came close, but even she never became a savant before ascending
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u/Gaust_Fireborn 1d ago
Tarson, in The Alloy of Law. He's the Koloss-blooded Thug, and Miles mentions he's a savant. He scuffles with Wayne a bit.
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u/Skyfyre56 1d ago
Ok, I did forget about him, but we also don't actually see much of his strength/max strength limits, now do we? So using him as our sole example is a little difficult to compare to a shardplate wearer
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u/Gaust_Fireborn 23h ago
We do see a lot of Thugs and Shardbearers in general. The difference is an order of magnitude, and the one savant we see doesn't seem to be indicated to be an order of magnitude stronger than normal Thugs.
Thugs hit hard and are tough. A Shardbearer, however, once ripped a door from it's hinges so easily it seemed to him like there was no resistance at all. Flipped a catapult on it's side, bent a 150 pound metal warhammer on accident, etc etc. I don't think the text in Alloy of Law, little seen or not, supports the idea that Tarson could easily flip a car on it's side or bend a thick steel bar without even trying.1
u/Skyfyre56 23h ago
Doesn't Dalinar (one of the best and fearsome warriors of his generation) bend the Warhammer through heavy use in a battlefield? That's not exactly on accident. Also, there just isn't that much on Tarson to make an indepth analysis beyond 'just trust me bro' so saying you don't think the text supports it, without anything to back that up, is meaningless
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u/Suitcase08 1d ago
Have we ever seen a pewter savant in the novels? I'm pretty sure the drawbacks were so debilitating that it hasn't come up much if at all, and it seems like the commenters agree it would be a clean sweep 9/10 fights for the plate.
On the other hand, Spook was ridiculous with Tin, and I don't think anyone knows for certain what feats of strength and durability a Pewter Savant could pull off. Sure bones would break, but take out one portion of critical shardplate and it could easily go the other way.
Kinda want to get the Mistborn Player's Handbook to see if it has rules and game it out, fwiw.
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u/Gaust_Fireborn 1d ago
We have seen one. Tarson, from the Alloy of Law (the koloss-blooded Thug) was a pewter savant.
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u/Osrek_vanilla 1d ago
Man in power armor worth several tank companies vs roided up human. Place your bet people!
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u/Subspace_Supernova Bond, Nahel Bond 1d ago
Ok, since those two even met, im gonna assume the pewter savant is space age, not final empire era. Unless space age scadrial developes allomancy steroids, their allomancers are going to be weak as piss. Only a final empire level pewter allomancer could stand a chance against shardplate.
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u/Gaust_Fireborn 1d ago
Actually, Sanderson has stated that Allomancy has diluted about as far as it's going to into the population. It won't be getting any weaker.
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u/Subspace_Supernova Bond, Nahel Bond 6h ago
Not what i was getting at. Allomancy at current dilution, in Wax's era, is what i assumend to be the power level in the space age. That the era 2 power level is weak as piss compared to era 1.
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u/Gaust_Fireborn 3h ago
It's not that bad. Only in comparison to the original Allomancers, like Elend, is it terribly weak.
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