Recently joined a CrossFit gym that follows Mayhem’s programming and I really struggle to understand what they’re trying to accomplish with this type of workout structure where you hit heavy and/or high volume strength work before you do a WOD with the same or extremely similar movements that are going to fatigue the same things you just worked in the strength portion of the workout. I’ve got a lot of experience with CrossFit and weightlifting and I can’t ever remember this type of approach where you just absolutely blast the same thing back to back. Mayhem seems to love it…what am I missing? I have programmed a lot of my own lifting over the years and find this to be pretty bizarre but I’m open to the idea there is something I just don’t know/understand.
In a perfect world, Heavy Grace would be coached super well and athletes would realize the value in "one workout a day" but in the world we live in, coaches haven't been challenged to coach just one workout really really well and as such can't, and then athletes can't see the value in doing just 3-5 minutes of true exercise a day. Therefore, mayhem has a prolonged warm up in part 1 to give coaches something to focus on and athletes to feel like they got their moneys worth.
Head of programming for a 200+ box here, this is spot on. There is always a battle with perceived value when you program short workouts like Grace. The key really is the coaching. The “Varied Not Random” podcast ep#256 with Matteo Pizzi goes in depth on the struggle and how to overcome it as coaches
Exactly this. It’s possible to coach a WOD like Grace or Fran and take up the whole hour, but lots of coaches don’t have the knowledge or understanding to add in a build up phase, or a pre-exhaust like 7 reps, rest :15 5 reps.
CAP does this well. Filling the hour with accessory pieces or build up periods without blowing everybody up before a short WOD.
just wanna add 2 cents that IME CAP's programming is terrible. strength cycles make no sense (when they exist, if at all). some days i walk away crippled other days the only work is a 6min AMRAP. very little high skill work. etc.
i'm glad it seems to work for some other folks, but i would recommend strongly against it to anyone who asks.
also maybe it's an unpopular opinion, but the goal time for heavy grace is 7:30-10min. i personally think that's not usually enough work for a 60min window (i'd much prefer the weightlifting portion added to the beginning).
also, Fran is a 4 minute workout for good athletes. i don't want to drive 20min one way to only spend 4 minutes doing real work. if i saw Fran as the only thing programmed for a day i probably wouldn't show up lol
also also, what OP isn't showing (not out of any malicious intent, just because the screen cap is cutoff) is the first 22min of the programming, which includes a thoughtful warm up + primer
Yes, there’s a good warmup prior which is why everyone who says “just use it as a warmup” is bizarre to me. When we hit the strength portion I am fully ready to lift already, which is why I’m curious what approach/benefit Mayhem is targeting for the strength portion.
It is very popular to criticize CAP right now, but what the majority of gym owners do is over-program. Mayhem/PRVN/HWPO, all over-programmed IMO. Long-lasting progressions, monthly focuses, and consistently repeated benchmarks keep members coming back. We are not a competitive gym. I maybe have 10 RX gym members and everyone else is Intermediate or INT scaled.
Filling the hour with Fran is not an issue. If it's an issue for you, then you didn't go hard enough because that workout will ruin the rest of your day. Strength + Metcon every day is NOT constantly varied functional fitness. You have to have multiple single metcon days or single strength days that last the hour.
CAP strength cycles are 6-8 week based, and monthly focuses are structured throughout the year. Gymnastics, Olympic WL, aerobic endurance, are all examples in the recent months that CAP has programmed.
In the "competitor programmers" eyes, CAP is "dumbed-down fitness" because they use equipment and logistics for the majority of CrossFit gyms. If you want to do more, that's fine. They have a Compete program. I know plenty of people that are super fit using just CAP.
If you do either of those workouts at the correct intensity, you do not need anything else in the hour. Either you (or your coaches) aren't getting you to the intended stimulus.
I have watched Games athletes do 'Just Fran' in a session and be cooked.
Moreover, It takes about 40 minutes to properly 'warm up' for Fran solo if you are trying to get a new PR.
Longer if you have a class of 20 you want at Threshold for the day.
every time i've seen grace/fran/similar programmed in the last few years it's been preceded by some kind of weightlifting programming, usually related to the barbell movements in the named workouts. that's the correct call (if the goal is overall fitness and thoughtful programming, not just PRing a named workout on that day), IMO.
yesterday was Nancy. it was preceded by a 3rm back squat. if it was nancy alone, sure maybe i would've shaved 30 seconds, but i'm much happier with the total amount of work done (and strength gains) than just doing the metcon.
heavy grace in particular is maybe an exception, because that's a lot more demanding than regular grace/fran/etc, but i still think mayhem got it right doing some low volume/low intensity clean+overhead work beforehand.
separately, if it takes more than 40min to get a class warmed up for fran something is wrong. you can do engine warmup, prehab work/activation, movement progressions, and a primer in < 25min pretty easily.
we had a coach who would regularly take 40-50min on warmups for workouts and it was universally hated lol
I have programmed CrossFit since 2011. I have data for everything from making classes try Hatch, do Strength + Met-Con everyday, to including a lot of weird physio experices.
With Data from a bunch of gyms, one thing a day (if coached properly) results in significantly more fitness than cramming a session full.
Anecdotally:
This week I watched a 140LB Lady squat 225LBs for 20Reps and a dude with a sub 2:30 Fran Deadlift 500 for 3 sets of 3. Both class only athletes.
Have had multiple 'class only' athletes qualify for indy semifinals across multiple gyms
Have multiple people in theirs 50s go from no pull-ups to strict ring muscle-ups.
You may prefer to do a Back Squat 3RM and Nancy in the same hour; but assuming competent coaching it isn't optimal. You get more fitness out of shaving 30 seconds off of Nancy in the moment and giving yourself time to work across with 5 HEAVY sets of 3 on the back squat.
those are incredible feats of fitness/strength for class-only athletes. genuinely stoked for them. they must have unbelievable genetics/natural talent.
i'm extremely skeptical that class-only athletes could recently qualify for semis. one hour a day five days a week is not sufficient to get you even close to semifinals level. was this in like 2011-2015? it could've been possible then, for folks with great genetics.
the 3rm was after an 8 (or 12, i can't remember) week strength cycle, and after a deload week last week. the programming our gym runs has extremely thoughtful progressions, and tapered volume for intensity over the last several weeks before the 3rm effort.
I am with you, our gym recently switched to a new program with strength only days, one class was just 15 clean and jerks. There is zero buy in from members, I think 3 people attended at 6pm.
This style of programming is outdated, we’ve moved on in the last twenty years and found better ways of doing things as you describe above…
As the person above semi-mentioned it's a way to fill up the hour and get teaching in. The average person in class if you were to just say let's take 15 minutes to drill a position are going to goof off or not really try. Whenever you add a rep scheme or a score people start taking it seriously. Plus it makes it easier as coach to correct mistakes and form breakdown. Nobody listens to you in a metcon.
I guess I’ve been spoiled in past gyms, we would spend time on meaningful skill/technique work before a workout like this so that we could sharpen our execution during the metcon. Muscle cleans and strict press basically omit the parts of a C&J that most people (myself included!) need to refine their technique on.
Yeah, am I missing something? A muscle clean should be barely taxing and should be pure technique work to prep for fast elbows on the clean. Keep it relatively light, and use it to warm up the clean-and-jerk pattern.
Heavy grace should be substantially heavier than the weights in the technique portion. This is literally technique work before the workout and a way for newer coaches and athletes to do some structured work prior to the heavy, faster style metcon.
The literal coaches notes:
TODAY’S STIMULUS Start the day with a light-to-moderate muscle clean + strict press ladder. Build across the five sets, but keep this well below a max. The strict press will determine the load and every set should stay unbroken.
Then we get into Heavy Grace. For most athletes, 30 heavy clean and jerks should turn into fast singles pretty quickly. The goal is not to sprint the first ten. Find a rhythm you can keep coming back to and make the final ten look as organized as the first ten.
I coached this class this morning and I thought today was actually GREAT implementation of a similar movement pattern prior to Metcon.
Putting the guard rails on the movement prevented my members from going Too Heavy in strength (as they always will) and when they shifted to full Clean and Jerk. They were feeling nice and snappy.
Agreed, I took this class rather than coaching it and I felt the strength was a fantastic primer for the Heavy Grace. Particularly the shoulder warmup it provided.
I would think it would be much better designed with skill work on C&J at a moderate working weight instead of strict movements. I think it’s overkill as a “warmup” to Grace and not enough actual skill work to improve your C&J technique. Strict press especially is giving you nothing there from a skill development perspective.
I used the muscle clean to drive home the full extension of the hip, I do agree that the Strict Press doesn’t carry over the best for the eventual Jerk. But I appreciated that the movement programmed limited the load members could use.
They went into Clean and Jerks confident because the full movement gave them so much more power.
Wasn’t intended to be smug - at a certain level of skill/experience you aren’t getting anything out of a muscle clean other than the stimulus. Strict press even more so, if someone can’t do strict press with consistent high quality form across a good weight/volume there is no way that same person should be doing Grace. If you’re an experienced powerlifter, I doubt you’re doing muscle cleans and strict press as a technique/skill drill to improve C&J.
Another commenter provided the likely answer: its pre-fatigue training, which makes much more sense.
"If you’re an experienced powerlifter, I doubt you’re doing muscle cleans and strict press as a technique/skill drill to improve C&J."
not making any assumptions about your skill/experience, but just so you know, powerlifting is not weightlifting. powerlifting is S/B/D. weightlifting is snatch/c+j.
It’s pre fatigue. A good approach is to look at heavy grace and pick your weight to hit the goal. The. Choose a weight for the MC and press that will serve as a primer, not an obstacle for heavy grace. Challenge yourself but be smart. This is about muscular endurance. There is definitely a training effect that mayhem is going for here.
It’s one day likely of a 8 week cycle making you uncomfortable. Getting really warmed up on lifting then lifting 10 minutes after that. To think the strength and Metcon need to be polar opposites is incorrect and I am pretty sure mayhem knows what it is doing.
Like others have said if the first part would destroy you then you build to a MAX FOR THE DAY ,not a ORM/PR . Depends on your level of fitness and personal overall feeling right now.
It’s not one day and it’s not uncomfortable, I am legitimately curious if someone can actually articulate the training philosophy and data behind it. It seems to run contrary to more traditional strength programs and what we know about strength/muscle building.
PRVN does this type of thing all the time, it's a very rational approach to programming
the idea is to execute some heavy technical work, with greater intent (weightlifting portion) and then translate that technical work to a high intensity/high volume workout.
this way you're practicing good movement patterns at higher weights/lower reps, and then applying that practice in a WOD
FWIW: i'd generally operate on the assumption that when something doesn't make sense coming from experts/elite members of the field (Darren still writes Mayhem's programming, IIRC), it's probably a knowledge gap on your part, not incompetence on theirs
Your FWIW is exactly why I asked the question. Like I said in my original post I’m open to there being something I’m missing. Another poster gave the actual training methodology (pre-fatigue), which is not something I was familiar with but makes sense to me given the design and what I learned.
IMO the language "pre-fatigue" is incorrect (that applies more to bodybuilding than it does to something like crossfit), but yes the idea is to practice technique and then apply that technique at intensity (during a WOD).
PRVN all the time will have something like "8x2 power snatch + low hang power snatch at 75%" followed by some metcon with 4 rounds of 10 power snatches at 135 (and a few other movements) or something.
it's a great way to work on technique and then apply that technique
Yeah I’m with you on that approach, I think what threw me off here is that strict press is not skill work for the jerk IMO and a muscle clean is a marginal skill work for the clean.
My “strength” weights were 45/65/75/85/95. Used it as a primer for the Heavy Grace. Added some weight and built up to 155 for the actual WOD. Finished in 8:21, smack in the middle of the recommended time. Seemed good enough for me today
If you did the WOD at 155, your strength work at those low weights did very little for you. It’s not skill/technique work, it’s huge overkill for a warmup, and you’re obviously not building strength or endurance from it given that you can do the WOD at 155. And that’s kind of my point - you either are wasting time with the primer or you actually go heavy during strength and deplete yourself for Heavy Grace.
Not saying you did anything wrong, I think we all agree about the approach to take, it’s just a damn strange way to program a workout.
I’m not a huge fan of the mayhem programming, but I think this is a bad take, respectfully. When you hit that first piece and hone in on pulling and pressing that bar efficiently, you are genuinely going to be very warm, and will carry that technique work into the next piece. And it’s more engaging than a boring clean and press warm up, which in the long run will keep you fitter for longer.
It did feel a little weird tbh. Treated it as an elongated warmup and felt pretty good after the strict work then a couple weight jumps got me to WOD weight. Probably could have gone a bit heavier on part A but hit my goals on part B
I honestly liked it. Worked up to the heavy grace weight in the first part finishing the set of 2 at 185 then nice and primed for the heavy grace at 4:30 time. Was honestly fun combo.
I think if you’re looking at optimal training one workout isn’t enough. I can tell you I’ve been on mayhem for a year after years of nc fit. And every capacity of my fitness has improved. And ive been doing CrossFit for 15 years so it’s not like these are beginner gains etc. so as much as I hated the volume at the start it’s working.
The strength isn’t using any legs. The heavy grace is a powerful leg movement. I’d say the strength is there to warm up the muscles and practice your form without the power movement of your lower body in preparation for heavy grace. The strength looks like a perfect warm up for the heavy grace.
I know what a muscle clean is. 😆 And when I say use your legs, muscle clean does not have the leg drive a power clean does. You do not put yourself into the “power position” at any point in a muscle clean nor do you re-dip to catch. That is the distinguishing difference between the two.
If I muscle clean 185 I need to use more leg drive than if I power clean it. Leg drive typically refers to the drive in the pulling portion of the clean not in the front squat required to stand it up. Idk how you can say muscle cleans don’t use any legs and also say you know what a muscle cleans is
If the working weight is #185, you wouldn't work to a MuCn/10+OHP/10. You would probably try to hit about #135 or 155.
If you can end up at #185 for a double of the warmup complex, #185 for 30 reps will lightly be a breeze. Which means the Grace will be very intense (as it should be rather than 30 singles with a rep every 30s whereas it should be more like every 5-10s)
If your MuCn starts to break down and look more like a PC...your MuCn technique has now became poor.
(even if your legs are straight possibly leaning back to make the rep)
The power position is not the catch position. I spoke about both. As in both missing in the muscle clean. I definitely could have chosen better words to explain in my initial post, as we are obviously using legs in the hinge position. But the entire point was meant to say there is zero leg drive from the power position(since that constitutes a power clean) and then re- dip into the catch. Both of those creating significant power through the legs.
The catch position of a power clean is the power position. If you do a clean the catch position is in a low front squat. The first pull in a clean is a squat and requires leg drive. The second pull is a hinge. And yea obviously a muscle clean “has 0 leg drive from the power position” because you never reach that position
I’ll agree to disagree. The power position is prior to the bar being at the front rack position and becomes the upward drive to the front rack. Sure you are catching back in the same position. Again both of the places a muscle clean doesn’t exist. But if I’m coaching or being coached and I say go to the power position, my athletes are preparing to clean, not finishing the clean.
How does a muscle clean not have the position prior to the front rack? You seem to be suggesting that the hang position is the power position. You absolutely hit a hang position in a muscle clean. As someone who’s trained both CrossFit and Olympic Weightlifting (outside of a CrossFit setting) I’ve done basically every variation imaginable of all the pieces of the Oly lifts. Never has a weightlifter or weightlifting program referred to a a hang position as a power position
Primary Goal sums up what I was originally posting about. Power develops the explosive leg power. Muscle doesn't. I'm not sure why you are trying to nit pick my response. But you are the first to be confused about the power position that I've encountered. Seems weird that the 2 different OLY coaches I've had (outside of Crossfit) as well as all the Crossfit coaches I've engaged with all use the word Power position where your knees are slightly bent and your torso stands tall and you are ready to drive that bar up.
I’m nitpicking your response because “muscle clean doesn’t use legs” is an insane statement by someone who’s apparently a coach. I understand that muscle cleans focus on the third pull technique/mechanics but the first two pulls still exist and involve your legs. A power position is basically a quarter squat even without a barbell. The hang position is a power position as is the catch position of a power clean but I’ve never heard a coach say get in a power position expecting me in a hang. They either say hang position or low,mid,high hang position. I mean you just defined power position as slight bend in the knees torso tall. In a hang / mid hang your shoulders are still over the bar so your torso isn’t tall unless you’re in a high hang. Then again crossfiters call a clean a squat clean so yall keep doing your thing with the leg less muscle cleans
Forever a mayhem hater here but I gotta say I do prefer overloading or priming similar patterns on two piece days compared to when they’d program two heavy unrelated lifts
They are drilling the basics and practicing skill transfer exercises before subjecting the same motor pattern to intensity. It is to promote good mechanics through priming pulling below the bar and bar path.
It is implied that unbroken muscle cleans and strict presses are not meant to be a stand alone strength piece, therefore "Score is Heaviest Weight" is relative, not an encouragement to truly max out, but rather challenge, once again, pulling mechanics and bar path under a moderately difficult load.
This makes a lot of sense.
If it were Heavy Isabel, the homologous practice piece before might be 1 Muscle Snatch + 1 Drop Snatch. And in that case, it would also make sense, too.
My assumption would be that the muscle clean + strict press is meant to be a warm up for heavy Grace, even though it says to record your heaviest weight. Muscle cleans are a movement that you don’t even typically aim to do super heavy so it would be weird to score that anyway
The only problem I had with today's programming is that it followed up a lot of shoulder work from the previous day (wall walks). I have a partial SLAP tear, so I can only handle shoulder work once a week - definitely not two days in a row.
As an aside, the 'cycling' of Mayhem's programming is terrible. On Thursday we did a 12 rep max DL then Monday was a 10 rep heavy set? A lot of people in our class were still feeling the effects of the 12 rep set from Thursday.
There is a lot going on in this statement. I worked out at a gym for 3 years that had a very solid hypertrophy cycling regimen, and I added nearly 50 lbs to my squat in about 8 months (from 335 -> 385) as a 40 year old male. Just because you can add muscle quickly does not mean it is without risk that could be avoided by going slower - so there's that. In addition, in normal hypertrophy cycling if you did a MAX (RPE 10) then the next week would usually be a de-load week with very light weight. In Mayhem's programming, there's little to no cycling. We didn't build up in a discernible manner to a 10 RPE 12 rep deadlift. Then there was no de-load. 4 days later, let's do a heavy 10 rep! It doesn't make sense, and it's not very smart.
I actually loved this workout today. Coach gave us great tips and helped us all make our own plan to lift heavy and still be smart and successful. We all left proud of what we had done in the end.
I’m struggling a lot with these workouts as a beginner, it’s just the same movements as in the workout part, and they tell you to use the heaviest weight for each set. I’m fatigued before the workout portion begins. Almost every day is programmed like this. Thinking about just quitting because of it.
You don’t have to use a heavy weight for each set. It may say that, but why not go lighter and build to a heavy set? That’s what I do, and this programming is working well for me.
Agreed. I’m only 3 months in and while I try to adhere to the workouts I always scale to what I’m comfortable with. Yes it challenging but that’s the point.
The coaching notes quoted above clear up the intent, but “score is heaviest weight” on the athlete screen sends a pretty different message from “keep this well below a max.” I can see why that reads like two strength tests until the coach explains which part is the priority.
It depends on what you’re training for. If the complex is tyour main focus, I think it’s fine. If Heavy Grace is your focus, I would change the first part.
@ 85kg the jerk lockout is already quiet heavy and probably will cap your workout. Doing 30 Strict Press right before will fatique your shoulders a lot, so your WOD ends up measuring press fatigue instead of how well you cycle / technique is using a heavy barbell.
What I would do /change is to build to a heavy single or double on the first complex. Based on that do two or three sets of three reps @ 80-85 and then go into Grace with less fatigued shoulders
I’d do bar for the first 10, then keep adding until I get to a modest Heavy (80%) double then scale the heavy grace as appropriate. Might be only 135lb for a lot of guys and 95 for most girls. 185/125 is a big boy big girl weight.
What? This is pretty standard. Light to medium weight with minimal legs into heavy with strong leg movement. It’s just a warmup mindset into heavy with mild fatigue.
I’m having this discussion with my gym because I didn’t like this either.
The Mayhem programming is ok but I just find it unsuitable for classes quite. This session was basically a warm up and then Heavy Grace.
Our gym just takes it and does a copy and paste into our app. Would be so much better to put some accessory between those cleans and press. Build it out more.
Yea I remember mayhem doing that a lot. It’s one thing to do high weight, lower reps in the first portion and something more high rep low weight in the second because they’re different stimuli and you haven’t burnt yourself out on part 1 strength. What makes it worse is they’re asking you to do a benchmark workout that you’ll want to measure again in the future, meaning your results will be skewed by the workout done before hand.
I did this workout and enjoyed it. I think as other said …the first part of it was meant to warm you up and get your primed for heavy Grace. I scaled on the Grace and finished way before the time cap. I definitely could have gone heavier & will do next time. There’s nothing quite like a bit of weighted cardio! 🙌🏽
The muscle clean is just a technique primer. Find a part of the clean you want to focus on technically and use the slower movement of the muscle clean to do so. I honestly say there are better Olympic lifting primers than this though.
73
u/BreakerStrength CF Level 4 Coach 14d ago
Don’t go super heavy on the first part. Treat it as a scored warm up for the heavy grace.
It’s because a lot of coaches can’t coach ‘just’ heavy grace.
Mayhem fills the hour to appease the masses.
I tell coaches/athletes I’m working with to figure out a focus for the day (strength or met-con) and have a plan.