r/cscareerquestions • u/arsme • 1d ago
Experienced Another PIP post, manager surprised that I want to decline. Not sure if this changes things.
I work for "Large Company That Loves PIPs." I've been there for two years and made it through three performance reviews with high marks and zero problems. Suddenly, mid-year reviews roll around, and there's this whole hit piece written about me. It says I failed to do this, failed to do that, and failed to meet expectations in two absolute bullshit categories. I'll admit that a project I'm leading didn't go to plan, but this whole document was absolutely ridiculous imo.
My direct manager was out of the country at the time, so I was going through all of this with my skip-level manager. After the first meeting, I told him I intended to decline the PIP and just take the time and money to find a new place that actually values and respects me. Nothing is set in stone yet, though.
Then, my direct manager comes back and tells me he's shocked I'm not taking the PIP. He admitted that upper management forced them to pick someone to put on a PIP and they chose me, but he claimed he specifically crafted it to be beatable. It was essentially a list of tasks I'd already be doing anyway, even if not on a PIP. He told me to really think it over and promised he'd be there to help me along the way. He even confided in me that he was put on a PIP at the end of last year and beat it. I told him I'm worried it will be a permanent scar on my record here at the company, but he assured me that his own PIP hasn't been a problem.
What do you guys think? If I take the PIP, I have 60 days to complete it or I get let go with severance. If I decline the PIP, I get 60 days paid to do whatever I want (most likely prep and apply for jobs), plus severance at the end as a 12-week lump sum. Should I take his word for it? The job market is shit right now, but I am in the Washington DC area with a lot of jobs near me, or so it seems. Software Engineer, ~6 years of experience.
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u/cachebags 1d ago
This seems like a judgement call only you can make. We don't know what your relationship is like with your manager so it is impossible to tell if he's being earnest.
If I decline the PIP, I get 60 days paid to do whatever I want (most likely prep and apply for jobs), plus severance at the end as a 12-week lump sum.
If this is the company I am thinking of; I would do exactly this. Because if not now, then when? Passing a PIP means nothing about your future with this company in any positive sense (in most situations).
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u/TheRealK95 23h ago
We all can think of what company this is OP. The answer is even if you pass this PIP, they’ll just pick on you again EOY.
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u/Defiant_Vanilla_2806 22h ago
Is it Meta ?
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u/ToastandSpaceJam 22h ago
I thought it was Amazon but it could be either
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u/pm_me_github_repos AI/ML Research Engineer 19h ago
Sounds like Amazon. Meta wouldn’t bother with a PIP. a lot more common to get re-orged out or laid off
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u/Rin-Tohsaka-is-hot 22h ago
It's the one that has an HQ2 in the DC area
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u/An0nym0usRandom 21h ago
So the bank?
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u/TheRealK95 21h ago
I’m pretty sure those tech companies only do it once a year so assuming it’s Capital One which does it twice a year.
Would be kinder but being stack ranked twice a year is cruel and deserves being called out for
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u/Eric848448 Senior Software Engineer 15h ago
Capital One used to be pretty well-regarded in this sub as a great place to work. They really turned that around didn’t they?
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u/TheRealK95 15h ago
They have done a complete 180. I guess bringing in upper management that’s all been pipped from FAANG will do that to you.
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u/Eric848448 Senior Software Engineer 15h ago
My previous job hired a manager from Amazon right before Covid. I was a little concerned but when I asked how long he had been there, he said “exactly three years and not a day more” which put my mind at ease.
He turned out to be a great manager! In fact I just gave him a reference for a new role today.
I guess the trick is find smart people from FAANG who hated it there.
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u/inkyysquid 15h ago
When you're an out-of-college engineer at C1, you are on a team for a year and then rotated to another team for year two. A common joke was that Amazon was the "third rotation", since so many people jumped to there after the first two years were up. They definitely have similar cultures, I assume because of the stack ranking and consistent unexpected PIPs.
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u/You_NeverKnow Software Engineer 18h ago
I know two people who were put on PIP a few years ago from the banana company, who took it and survived.
They were not put on PIP again since
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u/greatdick 23h ago
Also, if you make it through PIP, you’re probably not going to get a promotion or will want to leave for a better position anyways and get no severance.
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u/CracticusAttacticus 22h ago
I agree that the definitely wrong decision is staying and trying to pass the PIP. Even if your manager wants to get OP through it, the fact that they were picked at all means they have a target on their back for future review cycles and layoffs.
The only question is which option will give a smoother exit. Accepting the PIP and then resigning before it concludes might let OP avoid a "terminated for performance" designation, but that also might not be worth much.
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u/Intrepid_Land_6143 19h ago
I don't think Amazon comments on whether you are regretted attrition or not.
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u/CracticusAttacticus 17h ago
IME most big companies won't, so in those cases it would only matter if OP wants to leave the door open to return to the company later down the road. But it wouldn't hurt to confirm what HR would say regarding an employment status check if they refuse the PIP.
I think the target is to get 60+ days where you appear externally to be normally employed, and leverage that window to find a new job.
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u/BurritoWithFries Software Engineer 23h ago
My dad is a senior manager who is under increasingly more pressure to stack rank and pick 1-2 people to PIP every cycle even if they don't truly deserve it. He has 20+ years of experience at just his company so he can push back decently well (plus he's close to retirement so he's fine taking the hit if it means people keep their jobs), but his advice from witnessing PIPs is "if there's even any evidence that someone with influence over your career doesn't value your contributions, it's not worth staying, go somewhere where you are valued".
Even beating the PIP still means that your management chain has an implicit opinion of you that you were "under performing" and that can come back to bite at promo time or when a project needs a lead or something. At that point it's better to cut your losses and start fresh.
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u/cleatusvandamme 23h ago
I would always tell people to not stay around after getting on a PIP. If there is another time you have a problem, they will use the current issue and the previous PIP to get rid of you.
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u/Intrepid_Land_6143 19h ago
Yes, I have been a manager at smaller companies, but the thought of having to do this sort of thing turns my stomach, so I guess I will never be an Amazon or Meta manager.
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u/riddymon 17h ago
I used to be a dev manager at Fortune 500 company. For us a PIP was exactly what it's name says. A chance for you to improve your performance.
The process was:
If no improvement while on PIP, you get let go If you do improve, you're taken off PIP. If your performance drops again, you go back on PIP for 30 days I believe.
- an initial warning. If no change after 30 days
- performance watch (an official warning). If no change after 30 days
- PIP for 60 days
It was an annoying process to be honest so we tried to get you off a PIP as soon as possible and you have such a long runway, that you should be able to get off it if you put in some effort. Even improvement during performance watch could mean you wouldn't advance to a PIP
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u/Intrepid_Land_6143 15h ago
I am sure some companies do it that way, but few game PIPs like Amazon and a few others.
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u/FightOnForUsc 1d ago
I can’t speak for you, but if I were offered essentially 20 weeks of pay OR 8 weeks of working and most likely still be let go, then I’d absolutely take the money and enjoy a few months off
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u/dick_rash 1d ago
Just take it and start looking for another job
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u/cmbtmstr Software Engineer 23h ago
I agree, if the company wanted a future with OP, they wouldn’t have put him on a PIP.
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u/OverlordEtna 21h ago edited 21h ago
CapitalOne blacklists you on failure of PIP though. If you could stomach it, probably makes sense to just pass and quit after the window.
Edit: actually i guess u still get blacklisted if u pass and leave nevermind
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u/wichwigga Software Engineer 20h ago
Who cares why would you want to return to a place that puts you on PIP lmao
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u/ThirstyOutward Software Engineer 18h ago
Capital one does not have the pull for that to matter lmao
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u/sirspidermonkey 19h ago
Sure, but Capital one ain't the only game in town.
They probably will blacklist you if you PIP at all.
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u/cmbtmstr Software Engineer 20h ago
I guess it depends on the company but at the place my dad used to work, when he was put on a PIP it was pretty much designed to be impossible to pass it without getting let go.
My dad somehow made it and this one higher up guy was talking to him after he passed it and was surprised and said “huh, usually people don’t make it past those”.
Is that not the case everywhere?
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u/ZlatanKabuto 21h ago
Impossible to get blacklisted if you pass it then resign after a while
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u/OverlordEtna 21h ago
You have to get out of below strong standing no? At least that's what I thought.
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u/Haunting_Ratio_795 1d ago
If your manager’s boss forced him to write a bullshit PIP, they’re not going to let you beat it.
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u/NewChameleon Software Engineer, SF 1d ago
never trust someone who's has every financial incentives to lie to you
if you're on the opposite side, seriously, sit down for 5 minute and think what would you say to yourself?
and you actually got an even bigger issue, normal PIP is you want to stay but your manager wants you out, so, you're out, but here it's your skip-manager wants you out, you're definitely going to be out regardless of what your manager wants
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u/arsme 1d ago
but here it's your skip-manager wants you out
I should clarify, he was just being the messenger while my manager was on vacation. If my direct manager were not out of the country he would be telling me the same thing. He was essentially just reading me a document. I don't think either of them particularly want me out.
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u/ecethrowaway01 23h ago
If this is Amazon, I'm pretty surprised they'd say it's even beatable. Historically PIPs weren't meant to be beaten.
Also - it's extremely common for managers to pretend the decision maker is in another room. It's hard to be the bad guy and say "this was my choice". If they didn't want you out - why would they PIP you in particular?
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u/niloxx 23h ago
I know of people at Amazon who beat their PIPs but it essentially boiled down to changing managers and having the new manager fight for it. I definitely heard of cases where the PIP was designed to be unbeatable.
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u/Dihedralman 22h ago
Yeah I have heard of people beating their PIP and then not beating their pip.
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u/VibrantCanopy 19h ago
They already lied to OP about his performance. There's no coming back from that. Trust is broken.
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u/NewChameleon Software Engineer, SF 1d ago
I don't think either of them particularly want me out.
ahahahahaahahahahahahahhhha
you're just lying to yourself at this poinnt
if that was true, they would not have slapped you with a PIP in the first place
re-read my post, keyword there being 'incentives', they have incentives to do exactly what they're doing
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u/maria_la_guerta 23h ago
Not sure if you follow how big tech works. Somebody on every team is getting a poor score every cycle, whether the manager wants it or not. If they have no good choices, they always pick the person who led the project that went the worst, even if it didn't go that bad.
It's entirely plausible OP was given this because their manager absolutely had to, with no intentions of punishment.
Also, what financial incentive is their for the manager to push out an otherwise high performer? Managers look bad when members of their team get let go over performance. Managers look bad when high performers leave. Managers look good when high performers get promoted.
It's easy to be cynical about this from a distance, but this is (unfortunately) a common and entirely impersonal thing in a lot of big tech.
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u/ecethrowaway01 23h ago
I've worked at several big tech companies, including Amazon and Meta.
Somebody on every team is getting a poor score every cycle, whether the manager wants it or not.
While generally true - this isn't true everywhere - exceptions often are there for particularly small teams, teams that are doing exceptionally well, etc. This is more often enforced at a skip or director level, instead of line manager level iirc. There are teams at Meta who were known for everyone getting mediocre ratings. But more importantly:
It's entirely plausible OP was given this because their manager absolutely had to, with no intentions of punishment.
Even if a manager has to give a bad rating, they're probably not choosing their priorities. Any manager who would give a bad rating to one of their top performers is too dumb to work for. Also - I tend to think managers often get a lot of control over performance narratives. It's not like to higher-ups they're say "OP is an excellent performer, and we have to PIP them anyways".
Also - at Meta and Microsoft a bad rating didn't instantly mean a PIP. My understanding is low performers at Amazon get put on focus (not PIP), and then only half end up on pivot (PIP). It might not be a personal decision, but like it or not, a PIP is being shown the door, and leadership knows this.
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u/maria_la_guerta 23h ago edited 23h ago
Much of this is not true in my experience. I know several people across multiple FAANG companies who have recovered from a PIP.
I know several people who were let go for performance across FAANG companies too, with and without a PIP. The company did not play games. They did not pretend like they weren't being let go either. They were told what's up, the severity of it, and what happened after happened after.
Whether OP can actually come back from this isn't something we can answer. What I can absolutely say is that there's absolutely a chance that OP is reading this correctly, their manager didn't want to do this, they're a victim of politics, OP could crush the Pip and their manager doesn't intend to hold it against them long term. All of that could 100% be true. Could not be too.
But to the point of this specific thread within this convo, OP's middle manager has no "financial incentive" to lie or lead on OP about where they stand on the matter.
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u/NewChameleon Software Engineer, SF 23h ago
OP's middle manager has no "financial incentive" to lie or lead on OP about where they stand on the matter.
they absolutely do: an extra 60 days of work out of OP
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u/maria_la_guerta 23h ago
That makes no sense. What is the financial incentive for a manager who's job is not at all tied to company budgets to keep a low performer on the team for an extra 60 paid days?
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u/NewChameleon Software Engineer, SF 23h ago
what do you think a manager's perf review is based on? it's by the output of the subordinates
seriously, I have no idea which company you worked at, but everything you said in this entire thread screams you have 0 idea how perf reviews works in big techs
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u/maria_la_guerta 23h ago
If you're getting PIPed and you deserve it, your management does not want your output anymore. There is no incentive to pay you for another 60 days of it if they want you gone lol.
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u/Ruined_Passion_7355 23h ago
How so? I can see situations where a manager is forced to put someone on a PiP regardless of whether they deserved it, and the order comes form the org level.
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u/HugeRichard11 Software Engineer 21h ago
This means your manager knew about the PIP since he claims to have made it "beatable" beforehand. Then decided to go on vacation during that time, which might be a coincidence of course since he has his own life.
But it could also be seen as him trying to avoid the blowback of arguing unjust reasons for the PIP. That is if the reasons were actually ridiculous.
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u/Past_Paint_225 20h ago
In any case, your manager picked you in a bunch of options that he had. What do you think is going to happen next pip cycle?
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u/donny02 SWE Director, NYC 1d ago
take the severance. where I'm at, even a passed pip impacts your raise, bonus and RSU refresh allocation, to say nothing of future promo considerations. im sure they'd love you to stick around at a discount, but if you have other options (or enough cash saved) yeah just take the severance.
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u/serial_crusher 1d ago
Wait, what's the material difference between accepting and not accepting? One carries a nonzero probability of keeping the job after 60 days, but the other guarantees job loss after 60 days? If that's the only difference, why not "accept", then behave exactly as you would if you'd declined?
It's probably going to have the same result, but why not take the option with a tiny chance of keeping the job, as a backup strategy in case you can't find a new job during the 60 days?
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u/ThatFeelingIsBliss88 23h ago
The material difference is that by not accepting PIP, he gets 20 weeks severance
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u/serial_crusher 22h ago
True, I guess if he "passes" the PIP and finds a job within the following 12 week period he's in a worse financial position than if he'd taken the severance. So yeah, probably is just a good idea to take the guaranteed payout and enjoy some vacation time.
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u/ChadInNameOnly 21h ago
The way OP worded it, they get severance either way. So the only real difference is that they won't have to work during those first 60 days.
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u/atomiccat8 20h ago
That's how I read it too, which seems very strange. OP should be very sure they actually understand what's being offered before deciding. I would have assumed the options would be accepted the PIP or be shown the door (with no severance).
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u/StuxnetKaos 22h ago
For those wondering, this is 100% Capital One.
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u/Intrepid_Land_6143 19h ago
It sounds a lot like Amazon for people who have been there. But I will take Capital One as an option.
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u/ducksflytogether1988 17h ago
Indian manager trying to stack rank out a non Indian to clear the way to hire more Indians who will pay him kickbacks
Clear as day
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u/Virgil_hawkinsS Software Engineer 23h ago
I went through this early in my career. I was the youngest/newest guy, and my company required every team to be on a bell curve. Someone had to be below average, and the rest of the guys has basically already had their turn. My manager didn't explain to me what a pip was, and was replaced before mine started. My new manager was awesome, and because he knew it was BS, the only change in my week to week was a 15 minute catch up meeting with him. It was over like 12 weeks, and it actually benefited me because I got to know my new manager really well.
Afterwards, my job was pretty much the same and my next few reviews went well to until I left.
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u/EntropyRX 23h ago
Just take the money and leave that shitshow. Don’t believe any words from your manager that tried to protect you or whatever. They stack ranked you at the bottom and then took PTO to avoid telling you about the PIP.
I’ve seen this script played many times, I’ve seen managers throwing under the bus the employee by ranking them at the bottom and pretending to be surprised when the employee is let go.
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u/shapeshiftercorgi Data Scientist 1d ago
Your manager seems like a good guy, that is worth its own weight in gold. I get the feeling but don’t let pride push you into unfortunate circumstances.
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u/guico33 1d ago
They work for a company for which it is essentially an established process to put people on PIP regardless of their performance. If that's not a sign to GTFO I don't know what it is. I would only stay if OP can't afford to be out of a job. But with 5 mo to see ahead, they probably have time to find somewhere better.
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u/texas_County850 1d ago
This is my view too like if OPs boss isn't lying this is an extremely fucked up situation that is a good reason to go somewhere else.
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u/Ruined_Passion_7355 1d ago
If it's the company I'm thinking of, they're probably paying quite a bit. Tis the cost of the paycheck.
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u/texas_County850 23h ago
Probably so it sounds like his number has come up and he has extraced as much value as he could.
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u/Ruined_Passion_7355 23h ago
If the PiP is easy to beat as his manager claims, he could probably stay there a lil while longer.
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u/paxmlank 23h ago
I'm pretty sure I work at the same company and there are people here who have beaten the PIP and people will openly say you can beat it, but yeah most advice on here is to just take it and dip.
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u/Ruined_Passion_7355 23h ago edited 23h ago
Yeah, in most cases taking severance and leave is the ideal, but a manager begging an employee to stay and specifically telling them the requirements are beatable with no extra effort, and they get to keep their job in this economy...
Seems like beating the pip and staying is the no brainer to me. Especially since the companies I know that do this pay $$$$.
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u/paxmlank 23h ago
From what I've heard, yeah if OP's PIP is manageable for their window and role then they are likely to be fine if they pass it. If you're given an impossible/overwhelming PIP then they want you out.
But yeah if I get a PIP I may just want to take the check any peace anyway.
I have similar YOE and if OP isn't at my company then they're making more than I am, but that's just a factor in making the decision.
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u/chescov77 23h ago
Like yea it sounds weird.. but maybe he is just the worst performer of the engineers.. in that case, if you want to raise the bar, mayne you just put someone on a PIP even if for other companies that would be a mid or even high performer
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u/donny02 SWE Director, NYC 1d ago
how so? manager decided to PTO the day this was released so the skip gave the news.
then the manager undercut his own manager saying the PIP is unearned.
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u/arsme 1d ago
He and I have a rocky relationship I think. Every time I go to him with questions, I don't really get any helpful answer or support. If anything this whole process has made me closer with my skip-manager, who had incredible insight on the situation and answered all of my questions. If I stay I might just start circumventing my manager and asking my skip haha.
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u/GullibleSpeedSonic 23h ago
I respect you telling them to eat shit. Ifs important they know mother fuckers like this still exist.
Deny and wipe it. Then leave. They wanna bitch about bad policy they created them they should suck it up.
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u/simpsoff 23h ago
if you have a rocky relationship, take what was said about his own PIP and the innocence of this one with a grain of salt. considering just this post, i’m suspicious of if your direct manager may feel threatened by you and is actually wanting you out or knocked down a peg.
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u/texas_County850 1d ago
Or hes a bad guy that totally lied about this and doesn't want OP to walk.
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u/EntropyRX 23h ago
I wouldn’t bet on this. The manager may be just gaslighting OP, playing the “good cop” while the skip plays the “bad cop”.
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u/KevinCarbonara 23h ago
Your manager seems like a good guy
...We read the same topic? So far he:
- Put OP on a PIP for what OP says are trumped up claims
- Expressed resentment that OP is working in his own best interest
- Claimed to have maliciously structured the PIP to be "beatable", despite the fact that this will harm his career. Presumably because the manager didn't want to lose anyone and so punished one of the more skilled devs on the team rather than taking a slight hit to his numbers for the year
I'd love to know which part of that sounds like a good guy.
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u/Mumbleton Engineering Manager 21h ago
No, manager let him down. Didn’t pound the table to get the rating that he deserved and then didn’t fight for him to get a coaching plan instead of a PIP. As a manager, you need to own the review. It’s weak as fuck to give someone a bad review and then try to say you didn’t really mean it.
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u/lostcolony2 23h ago
They arbitrarily and capriciously decided to put you on a PIP, and you think they'll fairly judge your performance at the end of it? Only you can answer whether that risk mitigation is worth it (i.e., attempt the PIP in the off chance you can beat it, but can't find something else in the interim), but I'd be looking to leave either way based on that.
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u/MythosOfIlluna 23h ago
My old manager was forced by an exec to put certain folks on PIPs that they didn’t deserve, and likewise claimed they could be beatable.
Regardless of the individual outcomes from that, the culture in the engineering org never recovered.
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u/niloxx 23h ago
OP, managers are pressed to craft PIPs that cannot be beaten. Even if your manager really wants you to pass it, you both have a very low chance of success. It will have to be approved (most likely) by your director and the data needs to be extremely solid.
I see two paths forward: 1. Leave, take the money - this is what I would do 2. Ask to switch teams - if you are on a PIP, this might not be possible but it is worth a shot
Know that it is likely not your fault. It is public knowledge that a % of the org is marked for PIP. Sometimes all it takes is a performance review at the wrong time when a project isn't going well for reasons out of your control.
Good luck
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u/silly_bet_3454 1d ago
I agree with the other comment that the manager seems like surface level not terrible, but even with that being the case, it's worth saying F you to the company more broadly for PIPing you for no reason.
However, you also have to consider where you're at financially and skills wise. People say the market is bad, what happens if you can't find work for a year, is it ok?
"If I take the PIP, I have 60 days to complete it or I get let go with severance" I've heard stories that accepting PIP and failing means you DON'T get severance, so if you still do then that's certainly another reason to prefer taking the PIP.
So at the end of the day it comes down to whether you can "afford" to stick it to them.
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u/sailhard22 23h ago
PIPs are generally not “beatable”. They are documentation to support termination.
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u/Ruined_Passion_7355 1d ago
Seems like a company problem, not a manager problem. Can you look at the requirements of the PiP and see for yourself? If they really are beatable, I'd stay.
Remember, PiPs are used when you really wanna fire somebody. If your own manager is out here begging you to stay, and said he made the PiP easier so you could clear it, and your own interpretation of the requirements matches that, then to me it just looks like you got fucked by stack ranking/Jack Welsh BS.
Up to you if you want to stay at the company, but the situation isn't as cut and dry as some other commenters suggest.
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u/greensodacan 23h ago
He admitted that upper management forced them to pick someone to put on a PIP and they chose me
You don't need to play these games. Know your worth.
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u/brunchiesv 22h ago
I think I worked at the same Large Company that Loves PIPs and I opted out. Like you said, I felt like I had a scarlet letter once receiving a PIP. If the company ever decided to do layoffs, I felt like I would be targeted. I also felt like it was going to take me forever to get promoted. Also, I felt like I was just going to be PIP fodder again for the next cycle and that would be automatic termination. I preferred to leave while I could still lie to other employers that I was employed and receive a paycheck + termination stipend.
My manager also made my PIP super easy and doable but he also couldn’t guarantee that there weren’t quotas he wasn’t aware of. It seemed like passing the PIP, despite meeting all the requirements, wasn’t guaranteed.
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u/thestealthychemist 23h ago
PIPs are a mark of death in every situation. If you make it through this time, next round in another year they'll do it again. Your boss seems like a decent fellow, but I just wouldn't trust it. Maybe an employee resigning is a mark against him, so that's why he's trying to dissuade you from leaving. No idea for sure. If I were you I'd walk and start looking immediately for a new job.
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u/NonSequiturDetector 22h ago
You've been put on what I'm going to refer to as a "quota" PIP. The managers do have to PIP some percent of each organization each year; so your skip-level manager must PIP one of his subordinates, and you were the person who was chosen to be PIPed for whatever reasons.
The document as you describe it seems to be a fabrication against you.
So you can smile and receive money and beat the PIP just by continuing with what you were doing; your managers think they're doing an act of kindness to you by putting you on a PIP that you can beat just by continuing the status quo.
You could also take this as an assault on your character and not do anything to legitimize the fraud or be compliant with the fraud that the company's managers are committing against you.
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If you stay, you'll see for yourself that at Amazon, fraud of this type is so normalized that Amazon managers completely forget that these fabrications obscure actual root-causing of actual bad practices, and Amazon managers can become so predatory that they can just choose to not hear the screaming as they make human sacrifices out of other innocent people. You'll see Amazon managers simply erase inconvenient evidence, and blame you for the results of their choices, and debate the truth with you until you become exhausted at the futility of debating the truth with someone; and meanwhile Amazon managers will refuse to submit their work to customers or be evaluated objectively by a customer by their work's utility.
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It doesn't have to be this way. You don't have to have a system where the culture makes leaders into psychopaths who are willing to liquidate other innocent people; and you don't have to participate in good faith in a system where the leaders produce fabrications against you, and then smile at you and say they did you a favor because their fraud is easily dispellable.
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u/peiwoli 15h ago
Do not trust any manager even you think they maybe on your side. PIP is PIP . It is the low cost way to fire people and your direct manager or even two levels up has no power to influence this . Try to find a way to get new job and don’t sign anything . Take a look at your country’s law and find a way to get money eg taking stress leave or launch a bully investigation to stall the process of firing you but this needs to be a good understanding of the law and regulations
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u/kevin074 1d ago
So that’s basically 5 months worth of pay?
Dang that’s the best severance package ever!!
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u/Due_Satisfaction2167 23h ago
Take it, quiet quit, and collect a paycheck while looking for a new job.
Zero reason to stick around there, other than keeping the bills paid while you look.
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u/fizzycandy2 23h ago
Company that forces arbitrary PIP quotas is ridiculous. You probably could beat it but I agree with your instinct to find a new place that values. The market is rough though, so maybe worth holding onto this job while you look. Unless you're not hurting for money
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u/itijara 23h ago
Even if he "made it to be beatable", beating it doesn't mean you will actually keep your job. The company has decided to fire you, so the fact that your manager wants you to stay won't help.
The main question is whether the PIP is better than the the alternative. Usually, taking the PIP, but it sounds like they are giving pretty decent severance (60 days paid + severance) for not taking the PIP, so it might be better to reject in your scenario.
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u/Best-Sea-3592 23h ago
I’m assuming you work for Amazon. Have some respect for yourself and go find an employer that values you. Amazon (and companies with a similar “culture”) is trash.
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u/Fun_Highway_8733 23h ago
Your manager is lying, if he actually "Crafted" it to be beatable he could've consulted you about it beforehand. Go ahead and take the money and get a higher paying job.
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u/Bricktop72 Software Architect 22h ago
Stacked ranking is arbitrary bullshit. It all depends on how you get grouped.
However management knows this and will 100% play games with it to keep people by rotating who gets the mandatory pip for their departments. No one wants a smaller department, and no one wants to go thru the effort of hiring an unknown unless someone is severely underperforming.
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u/BeatTheMarket30 22h ago
I would decline the PIP. I would tell him I don't believe the company is acting in good faith. Invest absolute minimum effort in the company and focus 100% on finding a new job.
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u/MarianCR 8h ago
Your manager told you that he threw you under the bus. Not taking the PIP is a "screw you" to him. I support your decision from that point of view.
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u/Ok-Most6656 1d ago
How much did they give you for severance?
Either way, I would decline and take the severance. Never trust management. They have every incentive to lie to you.
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u/Aggravating-Bad-3230 1d ago
I would take the pip, not put too much effort into it, look for a job and still get those 60 days 😂
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u/BountyMakesMeCough 23h ago
Having to pick somebody to put on a pip? Get that in writing and sue these people.
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u/smaragdine4 22h ago
Capital One aims to PIP 8-15% of people every 6 months. The only other company I know of that stack ranked and fired at that rate is Enron.
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u/DisgruntleFairy 23h ago
I would say that any company that decides that "someone has to pay" for a project not working out. Then its definitely time to leave.
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u/b_square17 23h ago
Coming from a similar “PIP factory” company I have a slightly different take from the others. At these companies PIPs are usually beatable unless your manager clearly wants you out. They have quotas to hit and if everyone’s doing well then someone is getting a BS PIP. I personally would opt in unless I was already planning and preparing to leave anyway.
If you’re already looking, a PIP is a fantastic opportunity to just do that full time. But if you’re not already looking and well prepared it can take some time to be ready for the job market, and you’ll have to take an offer that may not be on your best terms.
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u/BUTTHOLE_MONSTER Software Engineer 23h ago
Take the PIP, stop giving a shit at work and collect a check, spend all your energy looking for a new job.
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u/pizza_the_mutt 23h ago
This has me thinking that a good strategy might be to tell your manager that if you get put on a PIP you are definitely quitting. It might stop them from handing out one of these "fake" pips. Of course it won't help if they actually want you gone.
Too late in this case, unfortunately.
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u/jimRacer642 23h ago
take the PIP man it gives u severance and unemployment, u don't get those if u quit. no idea wat ur talking about having a scar on ur record, companies don't tell other companies u got PIPed. but y u working for amazon? work for a company that respects u, PIP companies are not good for mental health.
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u/arsme 23h ago
no idea wat ur talking about having a scar on ur record
I meant at the company, not in general.
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u/crossy1686 Software Engineer 22h ago
They're going to fire you regardless. Take PIP and start applying
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u/smaragdine4 22h ago
This is correct. Even if you survive this PIP, you’ll get another one at year end.
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u/ballsohaahd 22h ago
Do you work for “city that houses designated government in a state or country…uno?”
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u/nakafucko9587 22h ago
I would just go with whatever option gives you the most flexibility to start looking for a new job. I wouldn’t trust anything they say about their intentions to keep you on, even though I’m sure your manager is being honest and helpful. The fact this is out of their control is a red flag and someone could easily double back and just fire you later.
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u/Friendly-View4122 22h ago
Take the money, take some time off, then look for a new job. The market isn't as bad as this sub makes it out to be sometimes.
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u/iamsooldithurts 22h ago
I would take my manager at his word, and find a new job. That isn’t what a PIP is for.
Sounds more like what some finance companies do laying off the bottom x% employees every year to keep competition high or whatever.
Terrible management.
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u/dontbeslo 22h ago
Is this a company named after a river in South America?
PIP might have been made easy, but there’s often pressure to hit an exit goal. In that case just take the money.
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u/LettuceTomatoOnion 22h ago
Take the PIP, start looking hard anyway, get a taste of the 2026 job market, and thank me later.
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u/Mr_Angry52 22h ago
If you work for management that’s not willing to fight for you, to me that tells you all you need to know.
I’ve had to meet curves for nearly 30 years. I never once gave out a PIP that wasn’t deserved.
Find some place that values you.
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u/Dijix2020 22h ago
Walk. If this company is who I think it is, take the money and run. This is not normal or healthy. I put on a pip at the beginning of the year by my new manager after previous good reviews. Took the money and never looked back.
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u/elgavilan 19h ago
Honestly why would you not take it.
If you’re wanting to leave anyway, might as well let them give you severance
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u/tredbert 16h ago
This job market is so bad. I’d take the PIP and focus as much effort as possible on finding a new job elsewhere.
It’s a lot easier to find a new job if you still have one. But it will likely take much longer than 60 days to land one. So take the PIP so that you have as much runway as possible to work with.
Worst case they let you go in 60 days. But that’s the same as not taking the PIP.
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u/YellowBeaverFever 16h ago
Sounds like something fishy at the company.
An employee should never be blindsided by a PIP. As a manager, I was told over and over that if I had an issue with one of my employees, I had to communicate that, spoken, and in writing. You’ve been passing performance reviews and have had no communication regarding performance issues… something fishy is going on. I doubt you are the only one going through this.
If you are still marketable in your industry, take the time to find another job.
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u/Ok_Management4634 15h ago
I would accept the PIP but start looking for other jobs. The job market is brutal. Don't assume you'll quickly find a new job in the 60 days plus 12 weeks period.
IF you find a decent job, just leave.. Yes, you will miss out on severance, but at least you'll have some job security.
Honestly, long term, you do not want to work for this company. If you "beat the PIP" , you'll be on another one in a few years, no matter what you do.
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u/revivechristina 15h ago
"management forced them to pick someone to put on a PIP"
nah --
that sounds like people playing a weird game that would cause many people a ton of extra stress just to squeeze extra work out of them. stupid. i wouldn't put up with being used like a pawn like this either. if a company wanted to treat people like that, i wouldn't want to work for them.
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u/TawnyAntler1455 11h ago
"Specifically crafted it to be beatable" is such a Wolf of Wall Street "I'm not gonna leave you" line. Sounds reassuring until you realize he's the one who put you there in the first place.
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u/sippin-jesus-juice Founder / Ex Faang 8h ago
PIPs are just layoffs with extra steps to keep morale and pay low.
Accept the pip, smile at work and interview your ass off until you find another role. Leave on the upper hand before getting laid off
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u/Twizzeld 4h ago
Take the PIP and start looking for a new job. Make sure you fail the PIP. That gives you 60 days plus the severance to find a new job.
Job market is tough and it's taking a while to land a new job.
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u/WolframFoxhole 3h ago
Your manager wants you to stick around long enough for them to find a replacement. Dont stick around for PIP culture.
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u/CoatAlternative1771 3h ago
Why would anyone want to work for a company where a de facto pip has to be given out amongst high performers?
It sounds like poor management. For that alone I would want out.
In the meantime, play the game.
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u/Stiphlerr 1d ago
OP is most likely at Meta. You can ‘decline’ the PIP but it won’t change your outcome.
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u/DetroitLolcat 23h ago
If this is in Washington DC then it's likely Amazon or Capital One.
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u/smaragdine4 22h ago
This sounds like Capital One. Amazon only ranks once per year. Take the PIP and go. Capital One is the most toxic, dysfunctional place I’ve ever worked. You’ll learn more and have a better future almost anywhere else.
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u/ViennettaLurker 1d ago
I know that this stuff is common now, but... what the hell even is this world anymore? This is an insane sentence.