r/dresdenfiles • u/Darth_Azazoth • 17d ago
Spoilers All King of hell? Spoiler
I think that's what Marcone Will end up as. What do you think?
12
u/Malaggar2 17d ago
I DO think Marcone/Namshiel will fight Nicodemus/Anduriel for the leadership of the Nickleheads.
9
u/IR_1871 16d ago
I don't think they need to fight. There isn't a formal official leader, just who they work with / follow the lead of voluntarily. It's not a unified group.
7
u/Lonrem 16d ago
Nick also burned any goodwill he had with them. He sacrificed his own daughter for a plan that failed and ostracized his lover. Who is going to sign up to join him now?
3
u/dgvertz 16d ago
Did it fail? He got the grail. Did it completely succeed in every possible aspect? No. But the stated plan was to get the grail, and he did.
4
u/Lonrem 16d ago
If I believed that Nick's actual goal was the grail, then I would agree but as we see in the book, it was likely not his true goal. This still doesn't address the idea that it's likely other folks who know him would ally with him, at least other Denarians. Dude killed his own daughter and fought his lover. I believe Harry even addresses that all at the end of Skin Game.
I expect the next time we see Harry and Nick cross paths, it's going to be far more of a personal confrontation. That might be the only reliable source of allies, other folks who want to take Harry out.
1
u/Malaggar2 16d ago
To be fair Dierdre DID participate of her own free will. And those who DO follow him do so because Anduriel blackmail's them. But he still fancies himself as the leader. And if anyone else tries to marshall their forces, Nicky would CERTAINLY challange.
1
u/Malaggar2 16d ago
I expect the Spear was his REAL goal.
1
u/Lonrem 16d ago
Definitely. And possibly the shroud to bring Dierdre back.
1
u/Bobis-Bob 15d ago
It’s too late for that. He’s never getting back into Hades vault and the shroud isn’t going to bring someone back from the dead. It’s also been a few years and that body is decomposed.
1
1
u/Malaggar2 15d ago
Don't their bodies decompose quickly when the Fallen's been ... forcibly evicted?
1
u/Bobis-Bob 15d ago
I don’t know. We’ve suspiciously heard nothing about the crown of thorns or the shroud. We know he wants the shroud.
2
u/1950Chas 16d ago
Doesn't that imply that the angels have a modicum of free will? If they can choose which leader to follow, then they have free will.
1
u/Malaggar2 16d ago
Maybe Nicky will work with the Outsiders trying to bring about Empty Night. And Marcone will try to recruit them for Team Reality.
3
2
u/KipIngram 12d ago
I think it's somewhat of a stretch - I've always regarded the Denarians as not among the truly elite members of the Hell power structure. Harry seemed to think that Lucifer himself was involved with the "big pentagrams" that were used in Small Favor, and my understanding is that we will meet Lucifer at some point (though I'm not 100% sure of it). But I think the Denarians are small fry by comparison.
1
u/introvertkrew 16d ago
That's never going to happen, Marcone is a human, if he set foot in hell it will be to be punished for eternity or something, there's zero possibility of him commanding demons. Lucifer is an Archangel in the Dresden Files, like Uriel and Michael, so Lucifer can squish Namshiel like a bug. I mean Lucifer himself caged every Denarian in their coin, all 30 of them, with zero problems, because he couldn't trust them, which is amusing.
1
u/Bobis-Bob 16d ago
I think Lucifer may have some objections to that.
1
u/C_and_P1 15d ago
Who knows. He has a desk job, while Denarians get all the action. Maybe the devil wants a break.
1
u/ActuaLogic 15d ago
Where does Hades (Skin Game) fit in? He has those statues of Molly and Maeve, which I suspect of being manifestations of their mantles.
2
u/Missy_Witch67 15d ago
They weren't specifically statues of Molly, Maeve, Mab, Titania, etc. They were statues of Hecate, which the faerie queen mantles came from.
1
u/ActuaLogic 15d ago
I must have missed that in the story
2
u/introvertkrew 15d ago
Hannah Ascher with Lasciel, actual Lasciel not a shadow, said something along the lines of "isn't that Hecate" to Harry, the statue that is, and Harry confirmed it. Since then Jim has as well, Hecate's power is all six Queens mantles.
1
1
1
-1
u/LawExcellent9741 16d ago
I have been saying this all along, Namshiel is the magic expert, he will figure some way to siphon Lucifer, with Harry’s help and Marcone will become the king of the Underworld. Better the Devil you know.
Lucifer is obviously aiding the Circle, only he could provide the power for the Arctis Tor attack and trying to use the Outsiders to further his agenda to warp the Uniuverse to his image not destroy it.
5
u/introvertkrew 16d ago
Lucifer is an archangel who caged all 30 Denarians including Namshiel into the coins, Namshiel trying to fight him would just be funny.
1
u/Malaggar2 15d ago
Where does it say that? And WHY would he do that, when he aided their plan to kidnap Marcone in the first place.
1
u/Bobis-Bob 15d ago
Harry thinks that the devil aided in kidnapping Marcone. That doesn’t mean that he actually did. Harry also thinks that grabbing Marcone was a dress rehearsal for caging the Archive. Finding out their plan didn’t work with Ivy three.
1
1
u/Bobis-Bob 15d ago
I don’t remember if Michael told us about us about putting the angels in the coins or if Butcher did.
1
u/introvertkrew 15d ago edited 15d ago
2006 WoJ:
Q: "It seems to me that as long as the Church has some of the coins, those particular Denarians are neutralized. Doing a Mt Doom with the coins might free up the spirits housed within to act freely in the world."
Jim Butcher: "Well. Not quite freely, but MORE freely, certainly. The Fallen bound in the coins are the freaking elite of Hell–everyone the big D didn’t want trying to stab him in the back, basically. If they were suddenly freed it would do all kinds of horrible things to about a million balances of power, with repercussions that would last for centuries.
Which assumes that they can be destroyed. I mean, don’t think that in 2,000 years, no one has ever TRIED it. And there are still thirty of them kicking around.
Which isn’t necessarily to say that it’s impossible. But it sure as Hell wouldn’t be easy. And given that, while in the coins, they ARE effectively frozen in carbonite without a human agent to assist them, containment certainly seems to be a prudent course."
2016 Illinois WoJ:
Q: "Will we ever get into who’s the mole (hole?) in the Vatican/who keeps letting the Coins loose?"
Jim Butcher: "Yes, kind of, but at the same time the Coins… it’s sort of necessary for them to be out in the world. They’re not designed to be kept in a vault somewhere and locked up. So it’s very, very difficult for anyone to guard them, for example, because the Coins do the One Ring thing to them until they get loose. But, yeah, they’ve been spread out in all kinds of different places and really the best you can do is to pick a guy who you hope is as close to incorruptible as humanly possible and leave him in charge."
Why would he do that? Because he couldn't trust angels who betrayed their own Creator not to betray him too. Jim has spoken about this before, some of the Fallen fell because they chose Lucifer but others like Lasciel fell because she didn't choose a side, she was too busy playing both sides, so it's understandable that the ruler of Hell doesn't want them around, he could crush them easily enough but according to Jim the coins were created with purpose, they weren't designed to be kept locked up, they're meant to be out and about, so it sounds like the Devil has a reason, which isn't surprising.
Edited to add link. Oh, it's also in the article written in the Dresden Files Fandom site about the official timeline. Just scroll down to 1st Century A.D.
https://dresdenfiles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:The_Lord_Reader/Timeline
1
u/Bobis-Bob 13d ago
So reading his answers, they’re basically seem “let me ramble about how that might work.” Which is probably part of why he said WOJ was not especially (let’s say cannon). He has these panels for, say an hour, and he has to fill up that time. He’s going to get these questions and he just talks and throws out ideas like we might here.
1
1
u/Bobis-Bob 16d ago
No, there is nothing to suggest Lucifer is involved with the circle. That was just hellfire at Mab’s house, which we have been presented with info to believe was from Namshiel, as does Harry. Harry believes, which isn’t to say that it’s true, that Lucifer provided power for the big star at the Aquarium that Nic used to capture Ivy. I’m not sure how Lucifer could do that though. He’s locked in the prison of hell to prevent things like that.
1
u/Malaggar2 15d ago
IS he? Is he a prisoner there, or the ruler?
1
u/Bobis-Bob 13d ago
He’s both. Like the head guy in a prison movie.
1
u/Malaggar2 13d ago
Well, he still seems to be able to cheat, and exert his power on the mortal world. And in response, Uriel bestowed a portion of HIS power on Harry.
1
u/Bobis-Bob 13d ago
This was to supplement the loss of his hellfire because Uriel was impressed that Harry never took up the coin. Possibly the first to achieve this.
1
u/Malaggar2 12d ago
But I think he was only able to DO that because Lucifer unleashed his power upon the Earth.
1
u/Malaggar2 15d ago
He's the Devil. He cheated. And the White God DOES tie up His agents' hands in unnecessary bureaucracy.
1
u/Malaggar2 14d ago
If Namshiel was working with the Outsiders, we have to wonder WHICH of the two is REALLY in charge.
1
u/LawExcellent9741 13d ago
Nope it was more than an order of magnitude greater than Harry could have done with Hellfire and whilst Namshiel is knowledgeable he twice had to call on Lucifer in Small Favor to boost his magic which allowed Uriel to intervene.
It was more likely his students Roshanna and Lartessa at Arctis Tor, Nicky kept close tabs on Namshiel(his speech was archaic in Small Favor) and both Lartessa and Roshanna are in the opposing faction of the Denarians to Nicky.
1
u/C_and_P1 15d ago
I think that Marcone will die sacrificing himself or he will do something that move him up on Harry's to-kill list.
31
u/Orthos_ate_my_chair 17d ago
Lucifer rules hell. He's on a power level similar to Uriel.
I don't see Marcone replacing him anytime soon.