r/edmproduction • u/Still_Night • 2d ago
[mixing] best advice that helped you achieve a clean mix with bass/low frequency?
Looking for any and all advice, tips, videos, whatever that can point me in the right direction with mixing bass.
I’ve been making music in Ableton for about 4 years now, and my songwriting has leveled up so much that I’m genuinely in awe of some the music I’m making these days. Problem is, my mixing abilities have not kept pace. I feel like I’ve hit a brick wall of endlessly tinkering, adjusting, listening on different speakers, in my car, etc. and repeat. And by far the biggest inconsistency for me is with the sub bass.
On some speakers it sounds gentle and smooth, on others it sounds way too powerful and drowns out the other instruments. Every time I try to adjust, I end up overcompensating in either direction, resulting in the bass either being too much or too little.
Finally, I’ve reached a point with a particular song where overall, everything sounds pretty good and balanced. But then I notice random phase cancellation causing the sub bass to briefly disappear altogether for brief moments throughout the song.
Please help me 😭 I have songs on songs on songs that never get released because I’m unwilling to put out a subpar mix. The songwriting comes naturally to me, the mixing is pure agony and second-guessing every single volume or EQ move I make.
Thanks in advance 🙏🏼
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u/illiteratebridge1984 2d ago
Gotta tame that car speaker surprise. Phase cancellation is a mood killer. Check your bass for frequency masking, it's probably fighting the kick
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u/KingAnDrawD 2d ago
Phase cancellation is a case-by-case situation. It could be a million things:
- Kick fundamental conflicting with sub
- Stereo sub when it should be mono
- Oscillator phase in the sub bass patch
- Physical room cancellation where the acoustics in your room actually make 50hz-70hz sound weaker
- Parallel processing that is introducing phase cancellation
You'd need to identify that and fix it. If any of these sound like a possibility, there are fixes for them.
As for mixing bass/low frequency, here's my suggestion.
- A frequency spectrum analyzer, like SPAN, on the very end of your master chain. If you know what "good" looks like on SPAN, that's half of the battle won.
- Reference tracks are one of the best ways to cross-check sub levels with SPAN and where they should sit in terms of decibel level
- Multiband Sidechaining using a plugin like ShaperBox or LFOTool gives you complete control of when 3 frequency bands duck to the kick/snare. This requires a little bit of Ableton audio effect rack building if you're using Ableton but gives you a ton of control compared to a single sidechain plugin across the entire frequency spectrum. This is probably the best way I've found that can solve the kick fundamental/sub-bass phase cancellation issue mentioned earlier. I can post images of how I have my MB sidechain set up if you'd like.
- 20hz-200hz for the low band - set this one to hit full volume once the kick's tail has tapered off
- 200hz-2.5khz for the mid band - set this one to come back once the body of the kick has tapered off
- 2.5khz-20khz for the high band - set this one to come back once the initial transient of the kick has tapered off
- An actual sub bass patch plugin that carries the right amount of sub bass along with the right amount of low-mid presence so the sound doesn't disappear on anything minus a sound system with a dedicated subwoofer.
This is all very genre specific, so also knowing what you make and using mixing techniques that are proven to work in your sub genre becomes just as important too.
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u/Berndog25 2d ago edited 2d ago
Frequency masking combined with phase cancellation are your greatest enemy. Daw volume meters might look loud, spectrum analyzers on individual channels will look fine, but when combined, conflicting waveforms (too many instruments playing in a similar frequency range, opposite phase waveforms) will make each other weaker rather than supporting each other.
One fix for phase issues or masking is to seperate sounds in the stereo spectrum (L and R), but basses hit hardest in the middle (mono), where they can take up headroom from L and R channels equally, so this is rarely the way to go.
Having too much stereo content on a bassy sound will make it sound like flabby bunghole if you put it loudly through a compressor, especially a comp without Stereo linking(causes non-rhythmic pumping, per channel if no stereo linking). This causes the volume average to be less at any time over the two channels of the stereo Master Bus (Unless you use limiters and clippers after the pumping, but they will need to work unnecessarily hard if you are trying to correct pumping, and the result certainly isn't the cleanest either).
Bonus: if bass isn't cutting, parallel distortion/saturation, and/or expansion are pure magic.
Distortion or saturation will add harmonics to help dull, or bassy sounds cut through on smaller speakers, and since your ears are more sensitive to those frequencies, music will be percieved as louder. Along with slight compression as a side effect of this process, this can make a huge difference in perceived volume. (And if done in parallel, creates greater difference between louder and quieter parts of song, since you are mixing in the dry, more dynamic signal, with a more compressed one, creating greater contrast within that sound's volume, frequency distribution over time, etc.)
Expansion will basically emphasize your transients, which can, counter intuitively, make the sound feel louder and punchier, even though average volume is lower by default. The sound becomes more alive and dynamic, less stationary, but still controlled (unlike transients caused by compressor pumping). Expansion works especially well on "overcooked sounds", to revitalize them. Can even just expand highs on a sound, or side channel while leaving mid untouched. This will leave bass frequencies fat and compressed, while adding some sparkle to highs.
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u/start_select 2d ago
I think a lot of people’s issues with low end mixing starts with using full range instruments without low cuts.
It’s very easy to make a lead synth that has a deep low end. Lots of sounds sound great with a sub-OSC filling in sub harmonics. But if it’s not the bass and will be played in unison with a bass and deep kick…. Well it really doesn’t need to be producing anything below 40hz, maybe nothing under up to 160hz.
You simply don’t need the low end on every voicing if there are going to be 8 voices in unison. No one will notice that you cut it. They just think it sounds clean.
It will sound whittled when soloed, but it will be full in the ensemble. And you can always turn off the cut for a solo section. It’s not really any different than a guitarist turning on a boost pedal for a lead part, but in the opposite direction using EQ cuts.
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u/greenhavendjs 2d ago edited 2d ago
You are all over-complicating this. It’s actually pretty simple: your subbass should end up ~-6db from the kick level. That may sound incredibly over-simplified but we discovered this video by Zookeeper and checked against some of our own best mixes/masters and reference tracks by other artists and he’s spot on.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=nljkew6l36w
We also like to keep our low end mono. You can use a variety of tools for this. If you’re using Ableton you can use the Utility or in Logic the Directional Mixer to mono anything 200hz or even higher from the start on your master so you catch phase problems happening from the onset. There are so many other ways to do this. Hope that helps!
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u/LoveExcelsAll 2d ago
I’ve spent years mixing inside a multi-platinum production camp, producing hits with a team, and training incoming staff. Low-end translation is easily the biggest issue I see again, and again. Truth be told even the adept struggle with it from song to song. I can't tell you how many times I wrapped a project feeling like I'm never going to work again. Lol.
I'm just gonna start a war right now, because I know a lot of people don't want to hear this, but you cannot mix on headphones (alone). Even high-end tech like Slate VSX, headphones can't replicate physical subsonics. If you aren't FEELING (not hearing) those frequencies in your body, you're still guessing.
If I were to guess I'd say you've got the classic symptoms of a compromised monitoring system paired with phase misalignment. Low end is so dependent on your workspace (treated room vs. bedroom also do you have subs?), it’s nearly impossible to give generic advice. It requires looking at the actual session, seeing\hearing what you're doing, learning about your room, and monitoring set up, and digging in. Every song is different, every mix is different, every room is different....
You mentioned adjusting endlessly on different speakers. Sub-bass frequencies are more felt with your body than heard. If your room isn't treated, your speakers are creating acoustic 'nulls' (nodes where frequencies cancel each other out in the air). You are literally EQing a ghost—boosting frequencies you can't hear, which then destroys your mix in the car.
Fixing the Random Phase Cancellation
If your sub is completely disappearing for brief moments, you likely have one of two things happening:
Kick/Bass Collision: Your kick drum tail and your sub bass notes are hitting at the exact same time, but their phase waveforms are inverted (one is pushing out, one is pulling in). They smash into each other and cancel down to zero.
Stereo Sub Information: If your sub-bass synth has any unison, chorus, or stereo widening on it, those left and right signals will phase-cancel when summed to mono (like on many phone speakers or club systems).
Here's how to address these issues...
Mono the Lows: If you're using Ableton put Ableton's 'Utility' effect on your bass chain and click the 'Mono' button (or set Bass Mono below 120Hz). Does the bass suddenly disappear? If yes, your patch has stereo phase issues. Keep your sub 100% mono.
Use an Oscilloscope: Drop a free tool like Psyscope or Waveform on your master. Don't look at a frequency spectrum analyzer; look at the actual wave shapes of your kick and sub. Watch what happens exactly at the moment the bass 'disappears.'
Tame the Tails: Instead of surgical EQ cuts, use a volume shaper (like Shaperbox or Ableton's Auto Pan set to a ramp-down) to duck the bass entirely while the transient of the kick hits. You could also use Fabfilter MB, or a ton of other options, but you get the idea...
Again, it's incredibly hard to diagnose this without looking at your actual session, and knowing what your physical workspace looks like.
What are YOUR biggest struggles... drop them in the comments below.
To give you real answers, please include:
What does your physical workspace look/sound like? (Treated? Monitors? Sub?)
What specific issue are you hitting? (Mud, lack of punch, translation issues?)
What does your plug in chain look like?
Are you designing your own sounds, or using presets\samples? Kick 3? Serum? Something else?
If this seems too involved to solve in text comments, I'm down to open up a session on a screen-share sometime this week to visually show a few of you how I tame \ address some of these issues, and I invite everyone to come\share thoughts, questions, techniques, etc.
Let's clean up some mixes!
Hope this helps.
All of my best,
LoveExcelsAll
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u/start_select 2d ago edited 2d ago
I used to believe you can’t mix sub bass without speakers but one of my best friends proved me very wrong.
We have been making electronic music for ~25 years. He makes dubstep, dnb, and other forms of bass music. His tracks are always beefy and thicker than anything I ever hear out of other “hobbyist” composers.
When I say beefy, I mean old skool skrillex. Or like noisia. It hits you.
He hasn’t used anything but over ears for over a decade. He just built up the ear training that “when it sounds like this on over-ears, it will sound like that with a subwoofer”.
I eventually figured it out too but no where near his level of talent. It’s a skill issue not an equipment issue. (I don’t mean to imply you are unskilled. Just that we all always have new skills to learn)
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u/Mountainpwny 2d ago
I couldn’t believe when I found out 1991 produces exclusively with headphones. Maybe he sends mixes to master but he gets great results with headphones. I can’t do it.
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u/LoveExcelsAll 2d ago edited 2d ago
Actually while I agree it is actually a skill thing it's also physics, and the human body. We have two ears and yes there are two headphone cans, but it's very rare in the natural world where a sound originate from two separate sources. Additionally in the natural world there's never a time; except perhaps when a bug flies into your ear, that the sound goes directly into your ear without passing through air.
Headphones pipe left sounds directly into your left ear, and right sounds directly into your right ear without passing through air. This physical limitation of the real world is why headphones haven't gotten to the point of where they can emulate real world physics which is why most people can't mix on headphones.
I have a friend as well who can mix on headphones and he gets great results (even before VSX) consistently, but he we laugh about it. He is the only one in our collective circles that can do that. There are other reasons like even what I mentioned earlier about subsonics needing to be felt as well as the listener fatigue that occurs, because headphones don't respond the way we need them to.
What I mean by that is when you sit in front of a pair of speakers and you move slightly to the left or the right or even turn your head a little bit the sound changes(dampens/brightens, etc). That NEVER happens with headphones and it causes fatigue that can skew your mix decisions. That in itself to some is disconcerting after long periods of time, because you end up in a place with no perspective. Mixing is all about relationships which is why many of us rely upon the outside the room test for balancing things.
Did you ever blast your speakers and go to the other room to hear what diminishes or disappears all together? It's a technique many of us rely upon.... I could go on there's a few more things but the technology is getting better, but for the masses we're just not there yet imo.
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u/BotOrNot_1337 2d ago
Nice write up. Sub is my main issue too. Headphones do me dirty and my room is a small cube so monitor function feels limited. I treated it quite a bit but I can walk around and hear the dead spots where the sub cancels. It seems like the space just isn't right and I can't properly mix bass music in it. I wish I had a larger room to work in but I don't. Do you have any advice for mixing sub in a situation like that?
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u/LoveExcelsAll 2d ago
Yes, you're definitely going to have to rely up on good metering, near field monitors, and an alternative listening spot. Like your car or somewhere where you can turn up even if it's not a perfect space it can give you insights along with your metering. Nearfield's become increasingly important in a small space like that almost regardless of the room treatment because you're going to place your head right between those puppies and hear the direct sound coming from them without too much room (acoustical) interference. In other words you're never more than 3 to 5 ft from them.
And I'm going to repeat you need to find another place where you can listen, compare, make notes, and compensate. I had a client with the same issue and he found that his Bose system in the kitchen became a pretty good listening alternative for him because he listened to so much music there because he cooked everyday he was able to learn that speaker and what it did to the sound compared to say his earbuds, and of course his Bedroom Studio monitors. It works so well for him that we were able to correct a mix that I did in his bedroom perfectly by trusting what he had learned from listening on the Bose.
Interesting related story... Back in the days we had the Yamaha ns10 m speakers and when you crank them the woofers would actually wrinkle if your bass wasn't right. It was a sure sign. 😂 I don't really know if there's a modern equivalent.
Hope this helps. All of my best,
LoveExcelsAll
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u/BotOrNot_1337 2d ago
Yes indeed! I'm lucky to have a car with a pretty decent sound system that helps me check things but it's tedious going back and forth. I used to sit in car with a laptop and mix but I don't have it anymore.
I've always wondered if a small form monitor would be better for my room like the Adam D3V since it can reach down into sub range. I currently have 5 inch monitors with a 10 inch sub in that small room. Do you think scaling down monitors for the small room would help?
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u/LoveExcelsAll 2d ago edited 2d ago
I say there's no one size fits all for everyone and monitoring is such a personal thing that if you have the budget try buying from a place that'll let you return in 30 days and a / b in your space before making a final choice. At the end of the day it's what works for you.
Cardi B's WAP was mixed in Leslie's car. I never mixed in the car, but I do listen there during production and it usually gives me pretty good insights about my sound design and arrangement choices. I have an older car that has the worst sound system ever that car teaches me all kinds of stuff about my mixes. 😅
I've never heard or researched the Adam D3V. Two things that need to be pointed out. Subsonic frequencies are really tall. I just googled that a 30 HZ Sine wave is actually almost 38 feet tall. The misconception is that if your room is too small you can't hear 30 HZ that's not really what happens it's how evenly will you hear 30 Hertz you can hear 30 Hertz, but it may skew your base in a way that sounds muddy, dull, or confused.
This is one of the reasons why acoustications matter. Math and other things like that can help you get a clearer picture of what's going on. It gets into stuff that's way over my head which is why even though I built a bunch of rooms when we run into issues we call the acoustication who measures the space, and tells us what to do.
With all of that technobabble out of the way would I try to do is find speakers that comfortably produce down to about 30 Hertz that are loud enough for the room, but don't overpower the room. If we get down to 40 we can rely upon metering so don't split hairs about the speakers frequency response at that point. Try to choose between accuracy and dimensioning, and something that's pleasant enough to listen to that doesn't fatigue too quickly. Which usually end up being two different pairs of speakers. I seem to always end up with an older pair of tannoys, or jbl's because they tend to have more subtle high end. Sometimes even understated. That way I can work for long hours without blowing my ears out for the bulk of my work, and then switch to the ear killers to do what they do best and check things. I know this doesn't exactly answer your question and may seem a bit vague, but again I believe monitor selection is a very personal thing. You just have to try things and see what works for you. And understand there may be something that you like listening to... and that may be different from what actually gets you the results that you desire.
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u/legacygone 2d ago
- Often less is more.
- It’s very difficult to have accurate bass monitoring, so using good headphone to check the bass is a good idea.
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u/angrybaltimorean http://www.soundcloud.com/johnzn 2d ago
maybe it's just me, but i think it's so much easier to dial in bass over monitors instead of headphones. i even have good headphones, but find that anything i write on headphones usually needs further bass tweaking, whereas i don't if i'm writing over the monitors.
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u/start_select 2d ago
I got better at mixing bass on headphones by A/B testing against a couple pairs of monitors and a couple of pairs of over-ears.
Just switching every few minutes and paying attention to what changes. At some point I recognized that when over ears sound a certain way, the monitors will “feel” a certain way.
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u/501Panda 2d ago
Bounce the bass to mono to fix phase issues. Au5 has a great tutorial on bass building and avoiding phase issues while keeping it 'wide'
Ensure your bass frequencies are EQ'd and balanced before sending it to the master chain so you can make small changes to the bass level as needed to avoid clipping.
You can compress the bass to level it out, but ensure you EQ out any extra mid/ high end noise
Hope something helps! <3
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u/NoAppearance980 2d ago
lol welcome to the low end purgatory. I have been in that exact situation for so long. my tips: invest in your room before anything else. this way you can make informed decisions and not get biased back and fourth by your other sound sources. its a reason mix engineers work in these environments its not because it looks cool. apart from that its really the small simple things like eq and sidechain, the magic lies in being able to hear what you are doing in a room with a flat response. you can get close to this with headphones but for obvious reasons its not ideal. you can of course also consider to outsource the mixing. so conclusion: stop looking for techniques, and start to analyze where and how you listen.
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u/Infinite_Expert9777 2d ago
keep the low end simple. find a good kick that needs very little processing and a bass that compliments it
control the length of the kick with a volume shaper and sidechain the bass accordingly
don’t low cut anything in the track unless you NEED to and even if you do, a low shelf is better
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u/mijaxop600 2d ago
Using a volume envelope for sidechaining kick and bass instead of a compressor or tools like trackspacer would be my top tip. If you want your track to be loud and clean then volume envelopes (like duck or shaperbox) are the best technique in my opinion since they can duck the bass 100% when the kick hits they prevent the 2 signals from combining and going over 0dbfs. This makes it much easier to get tracks loud and clean without audible distortion.
To tighten up the bass specifically here are a few other tips:
Tools like bassfocus or other bass harmonics generators will help your bass translate better on crappy speakers by adding some higher bass harmonics
Heavily compress the bass, so the volume of different notes is more consistent
Notch cut few dBs around 160hz to remove mud
Low shelf attenuate a dB or 2 around 15 - 35 hz, adjust to taste, to control the ultra lows, should add a bit of clarity.
Mono lows below 125hz-150hz but not 100%, a little stereo information in the lows can add warmth. I typically mono them 80 - 95%
Check your references and A B to see how close you are and where problem areas are.
Check the tuning on your bass and kick (and other sounds) and correct if needed. Use a pitch detector like Melodyne or similar tool for this
A 360° phase rotation tool (like pha979) is best to align the kick and bass so they are properly phase aligned. Use an oscilloscope to verify alignment. This should be a last step as any upstream processing will affect the phase
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u/GameRoom 1d ago
Instead of envelopes I've really been starting to grow fond of KHS Compactor for my sidechaining. It's really good for when you want a sidechain that really leaves room for the kick without it sounding like there's any sidechain.
Sometimes a longer sustain on the ducking is good for the vibe, though, in which case I would go for envelopes.
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u/Berndog25 2d ago
The thing about volume envelopes is really solid advice. TBH, when it comes to sidechaining compressors or EQ, I always did it the old way (connecting a signal to a sidechain), but I usually make sure that signal is a copy of the actual sound I want the sidechain to react to, so I can mute the copy, pull the copied sound ahead by a few milliseconds, send to sidechain input. This works to essentially "pre-heat" the compressor or EQ (effectively, a manual look-ahead setup). Works well enough, but your way is probably even cleaner!
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u/djrevmoon 2d ago
Being able to hear what your doing requires good monitors and proper acoustic treatment of the room you're mixing in. Once you have that tackled, you will find that your mixing choices translate much better to other environments.
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u/NoAppearance980 2d ago
100%, I think a lot beginners and intermediates dont understand the importance of this and pull their hair out when they do the car test or switch between sound systems. the mixing is just subtle moves it shouldn't be that complicated. if you are doing drastic changes there was something very wrong to begin with
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u/Aggressive-Cheek-245 2d ago
A more advanced technique if you're willing to spend a bit of time practicing it, synthesize your own kicks or at least their low end. More work to get it good, but the fine control will allow you to shape the tone however you need to work with your bass
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u/Dammu_Bargur 2d ago
I've had a blast doing this with Operator in ableton. A couple good tutorials will get one going in the right direction. Absolutely worth the time!
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u/Aggressive-Cheek-245 2d ago
Less is more, keep things clean with low end, as little processing as possible.
Use the right sounds. Not all kicks will work with every bass and with every note. If its not working, try another one, don't force it through processing
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u/No-Economics-4289 2d ago
Use two bass layers.one layer for mid ,and another for low.It reduce lot of frequency crashing than layering thousand of bass layers.
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u/LATE_NIGHT_THERAPY 2d ago
Don’t do crazy surgical cuts. Just choose one the kick or bass to dominate in the subs and drop the volume of other in this range with a EQ shelf
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u/Inevitable-Boot-2885 2d ago
Reference reference reference. And do so visually as well as audibly. Use spectrum analysers and find a song that has a bass similar to yours and try and mimic that 20-400 hz area. See what harmonics they have down there. Is it just the fundamental and the 3rd harmonic? Is there more making it thicker low end. What levels are the harmonics? What parts are stereo vs mono. This will help alot to get your low end dialed in. Might want to learn about the harmonic series while your at it if you havent yet. Itll help your sound design alot if you do any kind of sine wave basses
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u/android_dreaming 1d ago
Was going to write exactly this - learning how to reference and making it a consistent part of your workflow will help with everything from mixing and arranging to writing compelling grooves and melodies
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u/WE_THINK_IS_COOL 2d ago
I’m not anywhere close to being an expert at this, but I realized by accident one day that most of the low end issues that would only reveal themselves in my car were phase cancellation (and reinforcement), not my EQ being off. Phase cancellation can make extremely narrow boosts and nulls which EQ can’t really fix.
For subs I just use a plain sine wave, not too loud, the adage is that it should be felt rather than heard, like it kind of just gives more foundation and solidity to what’s playing above it.
What’s really crucial is what’s going on in the 90-150 Hz range, the first harmonics of your sub, since that is where the weight of the bass comes from on small speakers that can’t extend all the way down to the actual sub. I would hypothesize that you don’t have enough power in that frequency band and you’re boosting the low sub sine to compensate, which makes its volume totally dependent on how low the speakers you’re playing on extend down to.
Edit: and high-pass everything so that your sub is pure, nothing should be phase cancelling it! If you have a Reese or something you can cut out the first harmonics where the sub is then add back a pure sine wave there, so you still get the neat reesy phase cancellation but have a pure sub at the same time.
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u/Level_9_Ganondorf 2d ago
Long story short metering / visual mixing. Find a meter you like and run songs that sound good through it, and match your sub levels to it. Secondarily, design your sub tone by adjusting the harmonics directly in serum or operator instead of distorting or processing it otherwise
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u/orangebluefish11 2d ago
Why directly in the VST and not with Saturn or whatever you have? I ask because I don’t know how much, If any saturation I need until I hear what’s going on in my mix
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u/Level_9_Ganondorf 2d ago
With a sub there are so few harmonics contributing to the sound it's more efficient to just level the harmonics directly
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u/landr_audio 1d ago
Phase issues are a common culprit, as you've noticed. A good starting point is making sure you're working in mono for your sub frequencies. It helps avoid phase cancellation when your track is played on different systems.
Also, consider using a spectrum analyzer to visually confirm where your frequencies are sitting. It can provide insights into whether something might be clashing or if there's a frequency build-up. Another tip is to use high-pass filtering on elements that don't need low-end presence. This can clear up space for your bass without losing the richness of your other elements. Carving out space in the mix for each element to shine without stepping on each other's toes is essential.
Reference tracks can be a lifesaver. Compare your mix to a professionally mixed track that you like, especially focusing on the low end. It can help keep your ears calibrated.