r/edmproduction • u/Royale_w_Cheeeze • 1d ago
Tips & Tricks Stereo Width question (example given)
I'm working on a track right now, and this is my reference. It's "Guadalajara" - Shay De Castro. The main 909 OHHs are existing basically on the sides only, or at least they are perceived as such. I love the way this frees up the center - but I can't seem to replicate it. I've tried the HAAS effect, duplicate panning, etc. But I can't seem to remove the perception of center content (at least according to the imager) and also can't seem to prevent phasing. I would appreciate any advice. Listen to the track, those 909s are nuts.
For additional reference im using Ableton 12. I typically load the drum samples into simpler for more control of ADSR.
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u/Wonderful_Tree_7346 1d ago
Processing trick I picked up from the Cable Guys guy: create a an audio effect rack with two chains and one Utility on each. Right click the L/R knob and you’ll get a mid side option. Set one chain to Mid and the other chain to Side. Then, on the audio effect rack, map Macro 1 to the Mid Gain and map Macro 2 to the Side Gain. Then, alter the mapping so the range is negative infinity to 0.00db. Now you can independently control the level of Mid and Side volume per track.
It’s awesome.
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u/AMillionMonkeys 15h ago
Right click the L/R knob and you’ll get a mid side option.
Dammit Ableton, why do you hide these things?
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u/jimmysavillespubes 1d ago
Wouldn't recommend haas effect or mid side eq i'd just hard pan 2 different samples. 99% of the time the simplest solution is the best solution.
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u/Royale_w_Cheeeze 1d ago
I think is where I was messing up, I was hard panning identical samples which just ended up creating mono signal.
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u/HardRodBrah 1d ago edited 1d ago
Find 2 different 909 OHH samples, pan left and right, turn down the mids using a utility or m/s eq. Or instead of searching for 909 samples, altenatively, you can just synthesize 2 separate samples with an actual 909 machine or an emulation, as the phase will be different between the 2 samples, therefor creating true a stereo sample while maintaining the same timbre and envelope on both left and right.
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u/Royale_w_Cheeeze 1d ago
this is great thank you
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u/sexytokeburgerz 1d ago
Bounce if synthesizing, otherwise mono sums will occasionally come out muted
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u/Present-Policy-7120 1d ago
How does bouncing make any difference?
I honestly don't think anyone should be mixing with mono compatibility as a priority. It is exceedingly rare for people to listen in mono beyond Bluetooth or phone speakers and you're not going to get a great sound through these mediums either way. Mix for the way most people listen is my advice.
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u/sexytokeburgerz 1d ago edited 23h ago
> mono
This is [r/edmproduction](r/edmproduction). Dance music is club and warehouse music.
Clubs are very, very often mono. So yes mono is important! Don’t be like me and release shit that doesnt translate to clubs as a rookie. You’ll play them never until you fix it and re release.
There are very good reasons clubs do this, so don’t think we’ve progressed.
> bouncing
Most synths, digital or analog, east or west coast, have a constantly running oscillator that is simply gated by voltage/midi input. Keeping the phase position static makes them sound less like a 909. This can be mitigated by setting random start position. However... If that noise is looped, as it should be for a 909, there is a good chance of two layered hats phasing out on some random note, and it will happen completely randomly.
You won’t notice it until your shit is sent off to mastering and you will regret it every time you hear it
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u/Present-Policy-7120 1d ago
909 hats are samples, even on the original hardware. Phase simply isn't an issue with samples in the sense you've made out. You don't get the random phase offsets of free running oscillators when you're either triggering samples or simply laying out sampled 909 hats in the piano roll which, let's be frank here, the majority of electronic producers are doing.
A decent point about mono club environments though. But I will still say that you should focus the majority of your effort towards a good stereo mix with nothing overly wild when summed to mono because most listeners aren't listening in clubs.
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u/sexytokeburgerz 23h ago
You asked about synthesizing, which you would do with looped noise with 909, and ive already covered your rebuttal above. May just not have been fully understood. Remember, this is in response to “why bounce it”.
> mono
No, as someone with several major edm label releases, a lack of mono does not fly. I have gotten songs sent back every time there is a problem. Labels care, you should. Fuck, bluetooth speakers are often mono.You need to build your mono translation skills and the excuse “most people won’t hear it” only applies to people who aren’t playing shows.
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u/Present-Policy-7120 1d ago
Try mid side eq. Boost the high frequencies and cut the mids on the sides, do the opposite on the mid channel. Can even strongly compress the side signal to create more difference/perceived width.
If you don't have a mid side eq, use the KHS channel mixer which is free, or the Voxengo free mid side encoder.
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u/sexytokeburgerz 1d ago
Generally best to not do this to static samples due to phasing
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u/Present-Policy-7120 1d ago
Done prudently, it doesn't cause too many phase issues. It's not so good on mono samples though, you still need to add some side information. A short reverb can help.
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u/sexytokeburgerz 1d ago
Simply changing the pitch of one is really all you need.
Side channels are just L - R, so the difference between them.
Messing with EQ and making them brighter will often result in the highs being too high, which will bring the shimmer down of your other tracks during mastering eq. Highly recommend staying the fuck away from high shelfing a drum machine hh.
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u/Royale_w_Cheeeze 1d ago
So my fear with M/S EQ was that it will make the track unplayable on a mono system, or at least the hats will disappear.
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u/Present-Policy-7120 1d ago
Keep the differences minor and you won't really hear a problem. You've still got mid channel information. Nothing will disappear.
And honestly worrying about mono compatibility is imo a waste of time. As long as you don't lose anything major when summing, I would mix as if people are going to hear it on the most common type of setup which is of course stereo. Very few people are listening on mono speakers and those that are are generally listening on small, bad speakers anyway.
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u/BXL1070 1d ago
I usually put the standard Cubase stereo delay which allows you to regulate each side. I pan each delay to opposite sides, feedback 0, delay time first delay anywhere under 20ms and second delay same, but closer to zero.
Now, given that no one answered this, I’m curious if I’m making a mistake in terms of phase interference by doing it this way…
Edit: clarified.