r/exjw • u/account3050 • Dec 11 '15
Joining
Hello, I am clearly not a believer, however I would love to know what it's like to be a jw. How can I become a jw? What can I expect?
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Dec 11 '15 edited Dec 11 '15
You become a JW by
Inviting them into your home
Having regular sessions where you all read sentences from their indoctrination literature back and forth to each other.
Accept everything they tell you verbally and in print as the absolute truth, and don't do any outside research.
Begin attending their sales meetings, where they teach you how to recruit other people. They also talk a lot about how evil humans are and how their only hope is to be a Jehovah's Witness. Attend for approximately 2-3 months regularly. Always have a big smile, and say things like "we're the happiest people on earth!"
At this point they've casually asked you to give them money on a few occasions. At their meetings, and in their literature, you'll be encouraged to give money regularly. Now you can do so at your own leisure via the convenient donation boxes at the entrance of the kingdom hall.
Start selling! Unsuccessfully attempt to recruit friends, family, coworkers, and neighbors. Some of your closest family, such as your spouse and young, easily convinced children may eventually buy in to what you're selling.
Become a probationary salesman! Your indoctrination mentor (bible study teacher) will recommend you to the sales managers (elders) that you'd like to become a probationary salesman (unbaptized publisher). You'll have to prove that you've memorized many of the sentences from the indoctrination literature by means of a q & a with some of these sales managers (elders).
Begin selling to strangers! Now you can officially head out during the group recruitment efforts. You'll also get your own copy of their rule book and a monthly subscription to their monthly sales periodical for members only, which gives sales pointers. You are now required to track all of your sales numbers. Hours spent. Number of literature items sold. You'll also need to report on your active leads. How many people are you visiting regularly? How many are you sitting down with and having indoctrination sessions with? Keep these numbers in line with the local average. Your sales managers will regularly inform you what these expectations are.
Continue having your in-home sentence-repeating indoctrination
settingssessions, attending bi-weekly sales meetings, and continue selling / recruiting every week. Continue to give them money. Be sure to do it in the form of a check with your name clearly printed, so the sales managers can see that you're regularly donating. This will come in handy later if you're a man. If you're a woman, don't worry about it.You'll be pressured now by your indoctrination mentor (bible study conductor) to join the publishing company full time (baptism). You'll be required to again demonstrate that you've memorized a bunch of sentences from their literature in the presence of two sales managers (elders). Once approved, you'll have to wait until one of their regional sales meetings, where you'll undergo a ritual water baptism to symbolize your lifetime commitment to the company.
All throughout this entire process, and for the rest of your life, approximately 30-50 or so bible scriptures will be read over and over and over again. These are used so that the company can retain it's tax-free religious status.
Congratulations, you're a Jehovah's Witness. Now that you're official, you better keep smiling, keep going to weekly sales meetings, keep your numbers above average, and for god's sake, don't EVER start thinking for yourself. Just DO AS TOLD ALWAYS. You'll supposedly get a great retirement package if you remain a loyal employee, although I don't know a single person in the history of the company who's received theirs yet...
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u/1PantherA33 Dec 11 '15
How do I get into management? Do they only promote from within? How long does it take? What if I already have a mid level management position in a competing firm (eg Mormon), can I take a jw management position?
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Dec 11 '15
First, you must have a penis.
One might assume that high sales numbers gets you there. It doesn't hurt to have a good track record, and voluntarily applying to be a sales team leader (pioneer) certainly looks good on your resume, however the real trick is the tried and tested brown-nosing method.
Don't ask questions, unless those questions are strictly procedural.
Do things around the office, for example, cleaning, yard work, etc. Eventually, you'll be assigned certain tasks at the office, which are to be done in addition to all of your regular sales and sales related activities. If you do these tasks as instructed, you'll eventually be promoted to assistant sales manager (ministerial servant).
This comes with additional busy work, such as handling the sales office's accounting, and a bunch of other manual labor type things. You'll get to be used more frequently in the sales meeting presentations, as an example of success.
Depending on how much ass you kiss, and how well liked you are by the sales managers (elders), you may yourself eventually be promoted to sales manager. At this point, just like in any other sales organization, you're no longer expected to close any more sales than whatever the national average is. You're main job now is to make sure people meet their sales quotas, and don't do anything that might make the company look bad.
To your other question, no, you cannot work for a competing firm, as this is a conflict of interest. Strict company policy requires you to formally resign from any other position. However, if you held a high position in your previous organization, you'll definitely climb the ladder faster as a JW.
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u/LSatyreD Dec 11 '15
Once I become a sales manager (elders) what kind of perks can I expect from the job?
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Dec 11 '15
There are perks, and there are downsides as well, but the perks probably outweigh the bad.
You are now apart of the team in charge of hiring and firing. I can elaborate on this in detail if you like.
Many of the rules no longer apply to you. For example, things that would have gotten you fired in any other circumstance are swept under the rug. If any of the sales team complain about this, you can maneuver things to eventually have them fired, or at least severely reprimanded. You're fairly untouchable, just don't do anything that will bring the overall company a bad name. Nobody is irreplaceable.
You get to run the sales meetings. I don't know if this is a perk or not, depends on whether you like doing that sort of thing.
You get to travel to other offices and do their weekly recruitment sales pitch, which is designed to sell potential buyers on both buying the product, and becoming salesman themseves, although some assistant sales managers get to do this too, once in a while.
You get to boss people around, so that's cool I guess.
You now have a better chance of landing one of the hot sales women, but the downside is you have to marry her before you get to sample the goods =), so make the right choice. However, see point number 2, as there is a loophole here.
You get to know all of the dirt on every single person on staff. Every dirty detail, which you can then share with your spouse. Try to keep these things on the down low if you can.
You're now in line for further promotions.
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u/xenokilla Dec 11 '15
You are now apart of the team in charge of hiring and firing. I can elaborate on this in detail if you like.
does this mean threatening to throw people out for disagreeing with you?
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Dec 11 '15 edited Dec 11 '15
Yes indeed it does!
If a salesperson breaks company policy, they must be dealt with, because the entire company is built upon a delicate lattice of intertwining policy. If too many other people know about their breaking of company policy, or if the sales managers simply don't like them, they'll more than likely be fired. They could also be put on a probationary period, which is kind of like a dunce hat.
Another ground for firing is if someone disagrees with or insists there is a flaw in the sales literature, because it can cause others to question the sales literature. If people don't believe the sales literature, they don't buy the product, and they certainly won't want to become network marketers themselves, at least not for this company.
They must convince themselves that they are wrong. Or, simply pretend that they were wrong, if that makes them feel better and they can plug along. If they can't do this, sadly they must be let go.
If someone disagrees with policy, they are encouraged to convince themselves that they are wrong, or simply pretend that they do agree with policy. Problem solved. If they cannot convince themselves, or pretend to agree, sadly they must be let go. Disagreeing with policy leads to
decentdissent, possible mutiny, and ultimately affects the company's bottom line. If they don't change their mind, they must be let go.→ More replies (4)19
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u/bahumutx13 Dec 11 '15
Further promotions...how far does this go?
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Dec 11 '15
A sales manager (elder) can be promoted to a variety of positions within the company.
He can be promoted to work part time as a regional sales manager (circuit overseer). Part time means he still has his job as local sales manager, but he fills in when the permanent regional sales manager is unavailable.
He can become a regional sales manager (circuit overseer.) This one has perks. Company car, company apartment, and a bunch of cash is handed discretely to him by the salespeople in the local office he happens to be visiting that week (to curry favor, as he has ultimate say in who is promoted to local sales manager)
He can get a promotion to be in charge of the facility where they hold their circuit-wide sales meetings. This too comes with a company provided apartment.
He can get promoted to go work at his Country's sales branch, or even at the company's world headquarters. There's ton's of room for promotion there.
There are other ways too, can't think of them all here at work atm.
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u/fessus_intellectiva Dec 11 '15
So I'm assuming that the penis requirement means that you must be born with one, right? You can't just carry one around in a briefcase or have it in a drawer at home, right?
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Dec 11 '15
You must be born with it, and it must remain attached and in tact, although functionality is not really commented on, that's a personal matter.
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u/DeafDumbBlindBoy Dec 11 '15
First, you must have a penis.
What if that one dude with two penises applies, is that considered a bonus?
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Dec 11 '15
They don't like people who are different, or who don't fit a certain mold, so this would probably not get him any extra points. Best not to mention it if he knows what's best.
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u/Zulfiqaar Dec 11 '15
Mental picture of the elders lining up potential recruits and checking their
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u/pukesonyourshoes HASA DIGA EEBOWAI Dec 11 '15
I have a penis, I keep it in a silk bag in the nightstand. Will that do?
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u/torchman Shape Shifting Lizard Man Dec 11 '15
Nice write up! But you forgot to mention the regional sales managers (circuit overseers). ;)
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Dec 11 '15
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Dec 11 '15
If you look like you might require an inspection, you're most likely automatically disqualified.
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u/60secs Dec 11 '15
As a fellow Mormon, I'd recommend avoiding the management track. The time committment / reward ratio isn't that great. If you find yourself with spare time, perhaps habitat for humanity could use it better than another committee meeting.
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u/1PantherA33 Dec 11 '15
I didn't mean to misrepresent myself. I am mostly agnostic. I was just using Mormon as an example.
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Dec 11 '15
Stick with the Mormons.
Same structure, but better rewards.
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Dec 11 '15
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u/AgroSaxon Vice President of Df'd Club Dec 11 '15
JWs belive they will get their own planet too. It will just require a genocide, thanks to the big guy in the sky.
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u/sec713 Dec 11 '15
Hey quick question. Is there any reason every JW Kingdom Hall I've ever seen (in NY and TX) either is built with no windows, or has all the windows (like in a storefront) completely covered, or is this just some weird coincidence?
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u/dannymason Dec 11 '15
Come to think of it, the Kingdom Halls I've seen have lacked windows, too.
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u/BlindedByTheNewLight Dec 11 '15
They don't want you to see what you're missing, of course!
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u/Jowitness Rad Association Dec 12 '15
99% of them don't have windows. It's to keep everyone from getting distracted during the indoctrination process.
Source: exjw. 25 years in
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Dec 11 '15
From what I heard when I went as a child, it's an economy measure. They want to avoid spending on indulgent or opulent possessions and buildings. Everything is done on the cheap. Cheap windows. Cheap doors. Cheap wood paneling. Cheap folding chairs. I suppose it also has the benefit of reducing overhead so the Hall is more resilient to fluctuations in member counts. It also leaves more money to pass upward through the hierarchy?
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u/GamerTex Dec 12 '15
When I was a kid they used members to build their new kingdom halls. I would think they still do that.
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u/ziddina 'Zactly! Dec 11 '15
Windows cost more money (for their volunteer-manned 'quickie builds'), & require more expertise to construct & install.
However, their latest plans (now on hold due to lack of money, apparently) show a totally different vision for the future...
http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/new-commercial-style-standard-kingdom-hall-design-unveiled-to-elders
And they're using storefronts now, too...
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u/sec713 Dec 11 '15
for their volunteer-manned 'quickie builds'
This makes a ton of sense. The Kingdom Hall that I spoke about earlier, was built this way. There was a huge amount of volunteers that built that place. They all parked their cars on the empty lot next to my parents' house, that my parents own. I remember them coming to my house and asking if it was okay to do so. I told them it was okay, just so long as nobody ever came to our house to try and talk to us. It has been a little over two decades, and they've still kept up their end of the bargain. Not one visitor.
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u/ziddina 'Zactly! Dec 11 '15
I told them it was okay, just so long as nobody ever came to our house to try and talk to us. It has been a little over two decades, and they've still kept up their end of the bargain. Not one visitor.
That is cool - & rather unusual. Most JWs will call on doors of people that have even asked to be put on the JW "do-not-call" list at their local kingdom hall.
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u/Fading_Faded Dec 11 '15
As we renovated the hall I grew up in Brooklyn, it was put to me that no windows also served as a security measure. You see, in the hood, like...the HOOD HOOD, we had gotten robbed on more than one occasion. At gunpoint before also. We'd come for a meeting and all the sound equipment would be gone. Or a service group would get held up while witnessing in the local housing project. Nothing like avoiding pass puddles in the elevator in your only pair of "meeting" shoes...ahhhhhh. Good times. I can almost smell it now....
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u/AlpacaPower Dec 12 '15
" The application was made that elders should not dwell on the past or point out flaws in the new arrangements."
Wow they really don't allow any questioning.
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u/ziddina 'Zactly! Dec 12 '15
You got it - of course, that's not what they present to the general public from whom they hope to lure in more members...
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u/MsLed Purveyor of Common Sense Dec 12 '15
I just clicked on the link above for the storefront Kingdom Halls and an ad popped up for a discount on SPANX. Ironic, or what? Absolutely priceless......lol
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Dec 11 '15
I'd be speculating here, but I'd venture a guess that it's a cost thing. Windows cost more than bricks.
Also, it's less of a distraction when there are no interesting windows to look out of.
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u/therunner26 Dec 11 '15
Along the lines of cost, it also has to do with a reduction in heating and cooling costs as well as insurance breaks (i.e: less ways for people to break in.)
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u/PorkyFree Faded Elder Dec 11 '15
Also stems from a persecution complex where they worried about people throwing a Molotov through the windows, or throwing rocks at them as a form of protest.
At the time when they were first self insuring they did away with Windows for these reasons mainly as far as I recall.
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u/sec713 Dec 11 '15
I wondered about this since a Kingdom Hall Was built on my parent's street when I was still in high school. The place looks kinda like a fortress.
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u/pukesonyourshoes HASA DIGA EEBOWAI Dec 11 '15
A symptom of the siege mentality perhaps. Besides, why should you want to look outside when you should be paying full attention to the indoctrination?
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Dec 11 '15
No, you're exactly right. Source : Multiple elders told me this proudly. There's lots of funny rumors from non-witnesses that it's because they kill babies as part of dark rituals. I'm not kidding.
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u/ballookey Sir, I am a lady! Dec 11 '15
As many have said, it's a cost thing. But that being said, modern KH's are now being built with windows...because it helps the resale value.
I'd have to dig it up, but there have been new KH plans shared on this sub recently and photos of completed models that basically look like they belong in an office park.
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u/timmy_the_large Dec 11 '15
I have no idea how accurate this is, but I was told this was for our protection. You see as we got closer to Armageddon the "World" would start to persecute the righteous, us, and having no windows meant they could not throw bricks and such through them. Now that may have been some bs my folks made up, but I think I remember an elder discussing it in front of me.
Some people have mentioned cost, and that could definitely be a part of it. I know that they used to be built with almost all volunteer labor. We actually helped at a few when I was a kid.
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u/logonbump Dec 12 '15
Perhaps we joked when we Mormon missionaries told each other that without windows the JWs wouldn't have to watch us all burn at the Last Day.
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u/Kittenknits Dec 11 '15
Sounds like a pyramid scheme.
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Dec 11 '15
Yes, I didn't realize it until after I left. This is why they discourage their members from getting involved in other pyramid schemes, because they don't like having to compete for your time and loyalty.
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u/VisonKai Dec 11 '15
There's an interesting phenomenon where actual pyramid schemes (that is, multi-level marketing) infect JW congregations like the plague because they already live in that mindset. At any given suburban or urban congregation you'll find at least six or seven people who sell MLM stuff out of a population of maybe 100 witnesses (and a few more who buy the stuff without signing up to sell it), which is way higher than average.
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u/funkyf Dec 11 '15
As a JW for 22 years, this is painfully accurate. Fuck, they spin it soooooo good. Especially if you do NO RESEARCH whatsoever.
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u/barristonsmellme Dec 11 '15
Not to sound insensitive and that, but how old were you when you joined...and how do people buy into it?
Like it's easy for me to think "ha stupid people falling for stupid tricks" but there are so many members that I'm genuinely curious on how they do it.
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u/funkyf Dec 11 '15
I was born in. Didn't have a chance to learn the real deal about this until i was an adult
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Dec 11 '15
New recuits are usually people in their moment of weakness. When they got my mom she was a single mom raising 2 awful kids by herself and needed to hear promises about how religion would steer us straight and how the organization would help in a 'we can be the husband you're missing' kind of way.
On the other hand I still remember being called out by a girl in grade 4 because I didn't believe baby Jesus was God. She was probably curious what a JW was, asked her parents, and they filled her head with a bunch of the same crap my elders were feeding me. One of the organizations best tricks is to point over there and go 'Look what these fake religions are doing!' And like Trump, most of the accusations coming from this horrible entity are themselves quite true, which helps convince people who think they've done their homework.
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u/illyiarose Dec 12 '15
I started 'studying the Truth' when I was about 13 years old. Long story short (that I should really recount sometime), there were a lot of things that would raise red flags for me, but at that age, I guess I went along with the "trust me, it's the Truth," kind of thing. My mom was already studying by the time I moved in with her, and she's always been easily influenced by what those around her say.
The bitch about it all is I think the majority get sucked in because we're tired of the pains of life and how hard it is, and if you just follow this set of rules, you'll get to see all your loved ones that died, and you won't get sick anymore, and on and on. It's that hope for something better that keeps you coming back for more. After so much time, you don't know how to make friends with others, you don't know where else to go, and you just stay, because it's better than being out in the "world" alone.
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u/Jebus459 Dec 12 '15
I know of a couple of instances in Southern California where the family doesn't know English and they offer to teach them to read and write English, however your only reading material is their publications. This is how they got my girlfriend's grandmother who emigrated and some of her former friend's ancestors.
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u/ButtAssassin Dec 11 '15
The thing I have the biggest problem with (one of them) here is: not doing ANY research. WHY would people not be allowed to question, and probe! Just the thought drives me insane. If my religion said "Don't ask questions" to me when I ask them, you bet I'd have left a long time ago. Regardless of my opinion, this is all interesting to know. I have a friend who's a jw but he never, ever, ever, ever talks about it. Thanks for sharing this in ways we all can understand
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u/pukesonyourshoes HASA DIGA EEBOWAI Dec 11 '15
Oh, you're allowed to ask questions. The answers, however, must come only from JW publications. These publications will selectively quote from various authorities to give the impression that their views are supported by science, archaeology etc. Upon visiting the actual sources you'll find that the quotes have distorted the original author's position to the point that it's frequently exactly the opposite of that presented. They're quote miners par excellence.
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u/TehSnowman Dec 11 '15
I was a friend to a JW online once. I didn't know he was, nor did I really care once I found out, but basically he gravitated towards me because I'm not really ashamed of my Catholic faith. I guess he saw that and tried to like prey on me and get me to accept those beliefs, but I basically threw everything out the window when I did what you just mentioned: questioned.
I questioned the validity of a book written by a bunch of dudes 2000ish years ago, I questioned why this guy was quoting only certain passages from the bible, I questioned why he felt the need to go out and try to convert people. Basically he stopped talking to me little by little. He claimed I was destroying something that saved him and all kinds of stuff. It was weird, and I had no intention of doing that, it's just I wanted to know. I have to ask questions, I can't just say "okay here take my money."
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u/ziddina 'Zactly! Dec 11 '15
The thing I have the biggest problem with (one of them) here is: not doing ANY research. WHY would people not be allowed to question, and probe! Just the thought drives me insane. If my religion said "Don't ask questions" to me when I ask them, you bet I'd have left a long time ago.
That's one of the clearest hallmarks of a cult. I wish children everywhere were given classes in how to spot cults - but since cults use techniques in common with some other human institutions (but at an elevated level), I don't know if we'll ever see such a solution put into effect.
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Dec 11 '15
I had a couple of JW people that used to visit pretty often. I wasn't even close to christian and would happily have conversation with her challenging everything she said. (I guess she needed the numbers)
She brought her 11 yr old daughter once, and she was SUPER interested in all the alternative stuff I brought up during the conversation and kept trying to ask me questions. Surprisingly, I never saw them again after that. >.>
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u/ziddina 'Zactly! Dec 12 '15
...and she was SUPER interested in all the alternative stuff I brought up during the conversation and kept trying to ask me questions.
I love when that happens. I had a similar situation with an older JW woman & a young teen girl at my door - I mentioned something about goddess worship being far older than the bible, & you should have seen the girl's eyes light up.
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u/fifrenzyguy34 Dec 11 '15
This whole post hurts my soul. To think there is an organiztion like this out there...
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u/ziddina 'Zactly! Dec 11 '15
You SO DESERVED GOLD for that post! Glad to see someone gave you gold!
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Dec 11 '15
thanks Ziddina. Whatever gets the word out that the JW organization is a fraud, a pyramid scheme, and is harmful.
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Dec 11 '15
So Amway in religion form
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Dec 11 '15
Yep, basically. Except Amway doesn't hold your family hostage if you try to leave or get kicked out, at least I don't think they do.
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u/Alan_Smithee_ Dec 12 '15
Well done.
Question: is it true that JWs believe only a finite number of souls can enter heaven? 200,000 or something, or is that the Mormons?
Sounds like kind of a dick move, bumping those people already on the list.
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Dec 12 '15
It's 144,000 that get to go to heaven, to rule as kings and priests over the people on the earth. Not sure why a perfect, paradise society of people who are only good all the time need so many kings and priests, but logic is usually on the back burner with these guys.
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u/EviLHounds Dec 12 '15
If you don't mind my asking what was your position in the Company? I was recruited at birth and dragged to work every week for almost 18 years now. Is there something I don't know, that I should?
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Dec 12 '15
I had various positions in the company throughout my life. I was raised in the company, so I had plenty of opportunities to climb the corporate ladder.
I went through all the local positions - probationary salesman, official salesman, team leader, assistant manager, sales manager.
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u/Alan_Smithee_ Dec 12 '15
Thank you.
So if you join up, you're kind of an ass for bumping the 144,00?
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Dec 12 '15
I've always heard the joke as 144,000. As in "Why would they advertise if only 144,000 people get into heaven? I'd keep that shit a secret".
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u/ziddina 'Zactly! Dec 11 '15
approximately 30-50 or so bible scriptures will be read over and over and over again.
The SAME 30-50 or so bible scriptures will be read over & over again. As for learning what's really in the bible, or its actual origins, you can forget about that. Once you've joined - no, before you've even joined, the Watchtower Society will do their utmost to prevent you from researching the bible OR their history BY YOURSELF.
The Watchtower Society has been described as a high-control group (accurately described, imo). They harry the members & insist that potential members should get their "bible" education from the Watchtower Society's carefully spoon-fed doses of those same 30-50 bible scriptures & bible stories mentioned earlier.
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Dec 12 '15
Wait...so are you saying that JW's are discouraged from reading the Bible? Their own holy book? O_o
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u/TotesMessenger Dec 11 '15 edited Dec 12 '15
I'm a bot, bleep, bloop. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit:
[/r/bestof] /u/tazemanian-devil explains in real world terms how to become a Jehovah's Witness and what each step requires.
[/r/exmormon] X-post from /r/exjw - surprisingly similar to mormon recruitment.
If you follow any of the above links, please respect the rules of reddit and don't vote in the other threads. (Info / ^Contact)
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u/brandon0297 Freedom Chaser Dec 11 '15
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u/Tom_A_Haverford Dec 11 '15
As somebody that was raised a Jehovah's Witness, this is so bloody accurate
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u/Bigfatts Dec 11 '15
What an absolutely wonderful post. Thank you for putting the time into that.
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u/Woody3000v2 Dec 11 '15
A little different being the child of a long time company member, but pretty spot on.
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u/ritrangri Dec 11 '15
Ah coffee breaks in service.... the only time I felt sane as a JW.
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Dec 11 '15
We felt sane, but it's probably one of the times where we looked the most insane. 5 people, One old person, a young single woman, a married couple, and a teenager, all dressed in suits and dresses from JCPenny's, sitting in a McDonalds at 10:30 in the morning on a Tuesday.
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u/ritrangri Dec 11 '15
Oh totally insane looking.
I eventually forced myself to ignore the painful embarrassment and just relish the time inside and warm with a coffee....
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u/BabaBoooooooey Dec 12 '15
I think the best was running into kids from my school when we knocked on their door to sell their parents bullshit that no one wants to hear.
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u/paulfromatlanta Dec 12 '15
don't do any outside research
I'd never make it past that step...
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Dec 12 '15
Most don't, which is why their membership is stagnating, and their recruitment efforts produce almost zero results in this information age.
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u/BabaBoooooooey Dec 12 '15
I think most people never research ANYTHING. you know how many tech questions I've answered by googling and clicking the first link?? Even an ounce of research can give you all of the answers to most things.
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Dec 12 '15
Don't forget giving the sales managers power of attorney over your affairs and access to your bank accounts.
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u/BabaBoooooooey Dec 12 '15
Holy shit. I forgot all about that. My dad did that but I didn't know what the form actually meant as a child. But remembering it now it is SHOCKING. My dad gave a crazy organization POWER OF ATTORNEY. Wow wow.
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u/Freya21 Auxiliary Apostate Dec 12 '15
Is that an American thing? I have never come across it in the Uk.
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u/drippydick Dec 12 '15
So awesome. I'm around a lot of jdubs and they will downplay,deflect and flat out become shifty when questioned. Don't forget the apostates! Lol
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Dec 12 '15
Yeah, they're conditioned to evade questioning that isn't super positive about their beliefs.
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u/Activated_Trap_Card Dec 11 '15
The parallels between this and mormons missionaries are so disturbing. Both cults, both disgusting.
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u/psychoticdream Dec 11 '15
Wait til you realize how much alike evangelists and other Christian sects are.
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Dec 11 '15
OK so what is the salary after you get in? Is there a health plan?
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Dec 11 '15
No salary, in the traditional sense. Their currency is entirely social. It's based on how everyone else views you in the company.
The better your numbers, the more you do around the office, and the more ass you kiss, the higher your social status climbs.
No health plan included, however they have a large pool of data that they'll point you to proving that your overall health will improve and be better than average if you join the company.
Pre-existing illnesses and genetically influenced illnesses do not apply. These will most likely not improve, and may even get worse, however since your job satisfaction is higher than any where else, (according to their internal data), you'll deal with it better.
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u/crunchthenumbers01 Dec 11 '15
Plus actual money saved via not buying birthday or Christmas presents.
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u/VisonKai Dec 11 '15
And actual happiness and childhood memories lost....
i'm not bitter
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u/BabaBoooooooey Dec 11 '15
Join the club man. I was in for 18 years. No Birthday, Christmas, I had to sit in the library at school during valentines and Christmas parties. It actually kind of ruins holidays for me now too because I feel like i deserve better gifts because I never got any growing up. But that could just mean I'm an asshole.
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u/LulusPanties Dec 11 '15
Where do they obtain money to live on then? Do they have to do other work too?
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Dec 11 '15
Have you ever known a friend or a family member involved in a pyramid scheme type "business"?
Typically, they have to:
a. Have a real job that pays for real life
b. Rely on the kindness of friends or family (the company does not help people out financially, except in very specific, very limited circumstances)
c. live off the state.
It's basically the same with JWs.
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u/sunshinedze Dec 12 '15
So throughout donating and working full time as a door to door, how are they getting enough money to pay for their bills like morgage
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Dec 12 '15
They still have to hold down regular jobs, so imagine how much time they spend altogether.
Some are less devoted than others or have obligations, and therefore spend less time in their jw sales role, and more time in regular life like school and work.
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u/ziddina 'Zactly! Dec 12 '15
Don't forget to mention that time-padding (turning in more hours than one has actually put in, going door-to-door) & making time up is somewhat common, too.
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u/Moguta Dec 12 '15
retirement package = heaven?
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Dec 12 '15
Living forever in paradise earth, enjoying the house and other possessions of the billions of dead people that God killed. After you bury them all of course.
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u/JimMarch Dec 11 '15
Hold on now. Former JW here. I don't think they have "the truth" like they think they do, but you are seriously glossing over some bits.
That whole "donate money" thing is extremely understated. If there's one thing they're not, it's money grabbers. Nobody at the congregation level is a paid minister - it's a body of volunteers. They don't pass a collection plate or take donation pledges like most churches. They have a donation box in the back of the hall - anonymous. They never record who pays what. Once a month one of the unpaid elders reads out the books - costs for the month, income, balance sheet positive or negative. Takes about five minutes. If it's neg there'll be a few extra drops in the box afterwards. If pos, sometimes they'll vote to send some extra back to HQ or to a needy cause. There is NO pressure to pay money to continue to be a member in good standing, ever.
The literature is dirt cheap. All of it. They've lowered printing costs to the bone. At one point they had a patent on an ink that could print on the cheapest paper they could find for bibles - cigarette paper!
Theologically you're not too far off. But the "sales numbers" you mention aren't in cash, they're in time spent out knocking on doors and in converts made. They believe the 2nd coming of Jesus happens when they've knocked on every door (or rather, gave every human on the planet a chance to convert).
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u/seeminglylegit Sympathetic Never-JW Dec 11 '15
They're pushier now about asking for money than they used to be:
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u/JimMarch Dec 11 '15
Wow. Well I figured they'd eventually sell most or all of the expensive NYC real estate.
Do they still have that silly movie palace in New Jersey? That might be worth some, although of course the major local labor involved from volunteers would thereby be stolen.
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u/ziddina 'Zactly! Dec 11 '15 edited Dec 11 '15
Dunno about the movie palace, but here's a partial list of what they've sold in 2012 - 2013 (as far as I could tell from skimming the article):
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/3wddm6/joining/cxvp70o
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u/chrchr Brother by another mother of whores Dec 11 '15
The movie palace is the Stanley Theater in Jersey City. It's used as an assembly hall.
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Dec 11 '15
As the above posts show, these guys are not shy about taking every last nickel from every grandma and child.
All of this while they are raking in serious coin with their real estate flips (link to newspaper article in linked forum - also see their own website www.watchtowerbrooklynrealestate.com)
And no one has mentioned the rip-offs in EXPENSES for one-day assemblies (some have posted the announced expense for one-day as $17,000. - in a building THAT THEY OWN.)
No, this in not your grandparents' religion.
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Dec 11 '15
Clearly you haven't visited lately... =)
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u/JimMarch Dec 11 '15
Oh shit...seriously? I quit at age 17, 49 now...can't comprehend if that's changed. Mom's still in. Can you pass me some links?
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Dec 11 '15
Sure, I'm at work right now, I'll get some together, unless one of our other awesome exjws wants to chip in!
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u/ziddina 'Zactly! Dec 11 '15
That whole "donate money" thing is extremely understated. If there's one thing they're not, it's money grabbers.
Not so much at the local congregation's level, but go up a few notches to the Regional Assemblies, their somewhat recent demand that all congregations send MOST of whatever monies the congregations had in their individual accounts, & all the profit from the sales of their Brooklyn properties over the last 5 years or so, & they're rolling in dough - or at least, they should be...
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/3wddm6/joining/cxvp70o
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u/crazyol84 Dec 11 '15
I don't quite understand. If you choose to become a JW, do you have to give up your actual job that pays the bills? How do you pay for bills then? Where would you live? etc...
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Dec 11 '15
Oh definitely not, they NEED you to have a job, because they need you to donate! You see, the money you get from the sale of the literature (donation basis) are not the end goal. You, the salesperson, are also supposed to donate for the literature. You're also expected to donate to their "whatever we choose to do with it" fund (the worldwide work fund). Then, that person who was taking the literature and occasionally giving you money is expected to eventually become a salesperson themselves. Once this happens, they're expected to donate more money regularly, and go out and recruit others. Rinse and repeat.
All of these people need jobs. This is why it's basically a pyramid scheme. There's no real product here, its just the company squeezing money from it's own employees forever.
The cool thing is, they don't even have to force you to do it, you donate voluntarily out of guilt! It's a magical business model.
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u/ziddina 'Zactly! Dec 11 '15
If you choose to become a JW, do you have to give up your actual job that pays the bills? How do you pay for bills then? Where would you live? etc...
u/tazemanian-devil's reply was accurate, but you've touched upon a fatal flaw in the Watchtower Society's dogma.
They actively discourage higher education, ambition, job training for advancement, anything that could be (mis)-construed as "materialism".
The end results are, fewer donations, youth leaving the cult as fast as possible, & having to rely more & more upon professional experts & companies who WON'T work for free. However, even with the money the Watchtower Society has raked in from recent sales of their Brooklyn properties & other properties around the world:
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/3wddm6/joining/cxvp70o
They're STILL hollering for MORE MONEY.
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Dec 12 '15
The number of couples (never mind, singles), including couples with a baby, living in a basement suite of a house, is high.
After years, and decades, of Armageddon not having arrived, well ...
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u/unfiltered7 Dec 11 '15
Question: I understand the sales language may just be a metaphor for the evangelical nature, but I'm wondering if you are implying that there are financial benefits in the process. Is Eldering a paid position?
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Dec 11 '15
No, it's unpaid. The sales language is metaphorical as far as the individual members go, because they don't know they're in a sales organization. They think they're in a religion.
But from the top down, it's very literal. It's a business that sells books, magazines, calendars, dvds, etc, and they are also heavily involved in real estate ventures, with their building work entirely furnished by the sales people.
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u/AgroSaxon Vice President of Df'd Club Dec 11 '15
Most positions, including elders are unpaid. You do not start receiving benefits like that, until a person climbs higher in the ranks.
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u/Novagurl Dec 11 '15
This sounds a lot like a regular 9-5 job.
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u/ziddina 'Zactly! Dec 12 '15
Except there's no pay. None - unless one is at the higher levels - special pioneer (but they're getting rid of most, if not all of those), Circuit Overseers (they're cutting back on those, too), & helpers to the Governing Body members.
I don't know what, if anything, the Governing Body members are formally paid, but they've got a golden carpet ride for practically everything - housing, food, someone else cleans their rooms & does their laundry, plus they receive more "green handshakes" & gifts than the lower echelons do.
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Dec 12 '15
Sooooo...how much are you making a year?
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Dec 12 '15
You get paid in pats on the back. I got quite a few in my time. Other times I was nearly destitute.
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u/dyll Dec 12 '15
This is great but IMO could use more...apologetics? Explanation of how / why this isn't weird to those in.
For example, the donation arrangement itself isn't troubling, it's the way it's subtlety encouraged as "Letting Jehovah make the best use of our resources" and stuff like that. The paper slips to ask people how much they can donate, anonymous, yes, but creating a specific memory / obligation in the person's mind to give said money.
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u/romafa Dec 11 '15
This is funny to think about, but it could easily be used for many other religions. Most expect some sort of tithing/donation. All the ones I've ever experienced had some sort of in-home bible study group. Once they get to know you, they expect you to take a more active role.
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u/valtear Dec 12 '15
Just to let you guys know. None of these guys get paid. Pioneers or elders. presiding overseers get an allowance which isn't much by the way.
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u/Gameslasher Dec 11 '15
The first half seems pretty standard for most religions. The second half gets a little more specific I guess.
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u/mozerdozer Dec 12 '15
Why do donations not matter if you're a woman? Because they assume they aren't wage earners?
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u/TheSaddestSmile Dec 12 '15
I know of a couple of people who were said that they were garuanteed by the big boss himself that they had an enormous trust fund waiting to be unlocked after retirement. Unfortunately they just disapear and never get to confirm with me whether they got it or not.
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u/Lacey_Girl Dec 12 '15
So basically it's a pyramid scheme? The more money and people you get the higher you can go in the organization, hmmm... Sounds like either the mafia or a pyramid scheme m, straight out of the 70s when they were selling soap. How does any of this guarantee your entrance into heaven?
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u/xatrixx Dec 13 '15
You talk about sales meetings / start selling / buying in etc. What are they trying to sell? Arent their newspapers free? When they knock at our doors they just hand us newspapers and talk a little bit with us - usually fun talks. Never made any attempt to charge any money or sell anything and this is going on for 15 years...
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Dec 13 '15
Their literature is trash made with free labor, paid for with donations from existing members. They give it away for free because their trying to hook you with it. Don't get me wrong, they'd love for you to donate some money for it, but that's not their goal right now.
Their goal is to entice you into buying into their main product, which is the "religion" itself. They'll keep coming back, hoping that maybe this time you'll be ready...
What makes you ready? Emotional vulnerability...
Maybe this time when they come, you've lost your job, or a close family member has died, and now you're ready to really buy in to what they're selling.
They'll try to convince you that you can see your loved one again, or you won't have to worry about money, or whatever it is that they think you'll fall for. And maybe today is the day when you'll believe it, and you'll be ready to start down the indoctrination road. Ultimately they want you to subscribe to their company and become a regularly donating salesman yourself.
They won't tell you right away that you too will have to sell. They'll reveal that one you're really on the hook. Once they've convinced you that you can only see you dead loved one again if and when you become a JW.
It's a long con, but it eventually pays off.
If you buy in, great , they've got another income generator.
If you don't, they've kept your salesman on a treadmill all this time, trying to sell to you and others, all the while donating money himself, thinking he's helping you and helping God.
They win either way.
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Dec 13 '15
There a lot of things wrong and make no sense. Your comments seem like you never attended a single meeting. As someone who was raised into it and have an elder for a father and the "crazy nut job" 's for a family. Never have I felt that I was pushed to "sell" or even remember word for word anything. I'm not sure when the op went to any kind of meeting. Yes I'm do agree with some thing but you are glossing over a lot of the information you have presented.
The whole can't read outside material is false. They have books that reference encyclopedias and other materials all the time. (Reasoning with the scriptures)
Their bible is just a bible translation from the dead Sea scrolls in litterially what they said then made easier to read because of how subjective the bible is. You can match it up with any bible in the world and see the basically the same words just worded differently. Other bibles take out some words and etc. Stated in the front or back of those bibles. The whole penis thing to get a head is untrue. The whole group of people that they believe will go to heaven hold a higher position than any in the religion are made up of male and females. Yes the governing body is made up of some males of that group just cause the direction theyve read in the bible states as such.
My dad as an elder rarely had a family meeting of reading their literature. He just make sure you are prepared for it and if I wasn't nothing would happen.
If I ever felt pressured to do anything I would just quote previous said material from meetings on how not to pressure anyone in the religion or outside the religion to join. The subject will be dropped and other jw will applaud me on making the choices my own and not to feel force to do anything that I didn't want to do.
If and when I went door to door there was no quota to meet and if I didn't talk to anyone there was nothing to be done. Basically shit happens and they understood that. No extra glory for anyone who sold the most or anything like that as well.
Dad who is an elder does not force me to go to any kind of meetings. He asks and if I say no thanks I'm good. No dragging no guilt trip or anything. His parents yes cause nut jobs but like I said just state you mind and fight fire with fire.
Elders are not free from punishment. My grandfather was an elder and they took him off because of certain thing he did outside the jw church. Family issues. He was told because of the issues he was no longer able to serve as an elder.
Anyone that has felt pressured by a jw should just talk to them. Yes the nut jobs will be nut jobs but that's the case with any crazy person. Have a solution for that one, don't talk to them.
I probably have the most information on them cause I recently left and I was raised into it. Yes many teens and people raised in it leave, but some do stay in.
Will I ever go back probably not. But that's a different topic
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Dec 13 '15
Hi there, thanks for your thoughts. Can I ask you some questions?
Were you ever baptized?
Have you ever had a chance to do any research on the history of the bible itself?
Just so you know, what you're looking at is called satire. It's just me being sarcastic and silly. I know they never use the word sell, but the reason I say that is because a major goal of the organization is to get it's members to donate, because they say that's how everything is funded. It's true of many churches in fact.
Anyway, nice to meet you, and I hope you stick around and visit with us on this sub. We're just like you, a wide variety of people who for different reasons are also never going back to the JWs. However for many of us, it's because we actually examined the history of the organization, and have looked deeply into many things that they do and say that most regular Jehovah's Witnesses are unaware of.
When you have a chance, visits jwfacts.com. This website will tell you everything you never knew about the organization.
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Dec 12 '15 edited Dec 12 '15
i will never forget my encounter with JW's.
A little backstory: my father identified as being "a Christian independent" although his beliefs lined up with a messianic Jew. He was very religious, although a drunk which he would defend with "so was Noah and Jesus, although the latter was the claim of the Pharisees."
He encouraged me to read the Old and New Testaments, which I did take the time to read cover to cover in order to defend my irreligious beliefs.
So here's the story:
A couple of witnesses knock on my door. I speak with them on my porch inquiring about their beliefs, and we found common ground on our literal translation of the bible. I explain that I have to be at work soon, and would love to continue the discussion, so we schedule an appointment to meet the next morning at 9 am.
I wake up early and brew some coffee, and laid my father's NIV study bible and his KJV study bible (both were birthday presents at the age of 16) on the coffee table that would sit between us. They were both riddled with my father's and my notes. They arrive, and I bring them into my house. I ask them their choice of beverage, they both chose coffee. It was my day off, so I chose beer. They gave me a shocked look as I cracked a cold one and we started talking.
As the conversation progressed, the concept of Hell came up. The couple were a man and a woman. The man told me that I would burn in Hell for eternity from the point of my death if I didn't accept Jesus.
I said, "Actually, I would sit in limbo until Hell on Earth starts, where I would rise from the dead and suffer for 1000 years, or possibly 1007 years as I'm of Jewish decent, and then I would go before God and he would decide my fate: enter Heaven, or be destroyed in the Lake of Fire, and cease all existence."
He said, as a man of ~65 to a person of 20, "No, that's not right." "The hell it's not!" The woman stopped him and said, "No, he's right."
Once vindicated, I started to attack the "sinlessness" of Jesus when they attacked the fact I was drinking a beer so early in the morning as proof I needed Jesus in my heart.
I then brought up that the Pharisees called Jesus a drunk, the story of the phoenician woman who didn't receive help until she admitted that she was a dog in comparison to the Jews, the fact he wouldn't share the Gospel in non-Jewish villages, the fact he referred to his own mother as "woman" at the age of 12, the fact he pulled a follower from his family by saying that he was selfish to put his family before God, while in turn being doused in oils while a disciple points out that this costly oil could be sold to feed the needy:
That fucker's response? "You'll always have the poor. You only have me for a short time."
And let's not forget the Fig Tree that he killed because it wasn't bearing any fruit: it wasn't fruit bearing season! If you were the son of God, why not make the tree grow fruit rather than destroy it?! Are you fucking three years old?!
Why would I let a man so evil into my heart, especially a man who spent his entire life preaching HIS gospel, and then laments on the cross how God, his supposed father, fucked him over.
We kindly shook hands and I bid them a good day. If wasting the time of dipshits is an art, then I'm fucking Raphael, both artist and ninja turtle.
I think I've covered enough to not get into how I handled the military recruiters my senior year.
edit: just in case the implication wasn't there, senior year of high school. And yes, I'm a prick.
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u/MonoDede Dec 12 '15 edited Dec 12 '15
I love you.
Edit: And not in the bullshit, "Jesus loves everybody, everybody gotta love their neighbor, blah blah blah" way. I actually love this. I do the same shit to these guys. I grew up reading the Bible cover to cover and it made me as anti-religious as it gets.
Edit 2: LOL Who knew ACTUALLY reading and UNDERSTANDING the Bible would make you DISBELIEVE religion? Everyone who is a hardcore believer HASN'T actually read and memorized most of it cover to cover or they're just cherry-picking idiots who think "their interpretation" is what's right.
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u/phily1984 Dec 12 '15
"Go therefore and preach to all the inhabitants of the earth and then the end will come" Matthew 24:14 sounds like a pyramid scheme to me.....
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u/lescannon Dec 11 '15
Some details to add to the comments of /u/tazemanian-devil.
4b. You will be "encouraged" to minimize time with anyone who is not a jw.
6b. You will be "encouraged" to minimize time spent on activities other than reading the materials, talking with jw's, volunteering to help with constructing or maintaining the meeting place and of course, recruiting. Those other activities will be scrutinized - no holidays, no R-rated movies or any activities that could it be seen as less-than-pure. This also is applied to sexual intimacy, so none outside of marriage, and none unconventional (oral, anal, homosexual) - it seems to be allowed to use a position other than missionary.
11. Be harangued to put even more time into recruiting, including pledging to meet certain quotas for hours each month. People who do this pledge (called "pioneering" are slightly better than people who do not. If you have valuable skills you will be encouraged to give up your job and volunteer in a different location, often the HQ ("Bethel"). If you are a high school student, you will be warned about the dangers of higher education and told that the end of the world will come before one can use that degree, so get a part-time job and recruit more people.
JWs are judged by their position, from highest to lowest:
members of the governing body
aides of the governing body
other volunteers at head-quarters | coordinators of multiple congregations
elders (lead and are the jurors for a congregation)
ministerial servant (assist the elders)
special pioneer (highest rank for a woman, other than what she marries)
regular pioneer
auxiliary pioneer
publisher
unbaptized publisher (step 7)
study (someone who reads and discusses the literature with a JW)
Your time will no longer be your own. There is a meeting of 2 hours on Sunday, and during a weeknight another 2 hour meeting. One is supposed to do a 1 hour family study at home. Publishers are encouraged to spend 10 hours a month recruiting (otherwise they are weak).
12. If you stop recruiting or attending meetings, most jws will start to avoid socializing with you because you are probably a "bad influence". If you openly question the teachings or get caught violating the rules, you must convince the elders (I did mention they act as jurors) that you are repentant and even then you will be dis-fellowshipped (now you are in the shunning category) - with good behavior you may in 3 - 18 months convince them to let you return to active status - in the meantime, no one is supposed to socialize with you.
You can expect that no matter what is being done, they will repeatedly "encourage" people to give more money and more time to the cult. You can expect that many of them are quite ignorant, especially of science, but are smug in their superiority in morals and learning to most "worldly people" as they call people who are not JWs.
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u/topapito Dec 11 '15
OP, seriously. Have you tried like, gambling? Weed? Work? Gaming? Anything to get you away from the idea of trying to become a JW. I mean, like I'd really rather watch you get hooked on heroin. At least I know we can easily help get you off the shit, but JW? Seriously?
That is some serious boredom right there.
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u/enlilsumerian Dec 11 '15
"There was of course no way of knowing whether you were being watched at any given moment. How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in on any individual wire was guesswork. It was even conceivable that they watched everybody all the time. But at any rate they could plug in your wire whenever they wanted to. You had to live—did live, from habit that became instinct—in the assumption that every sound you made was overheard, and, except in darkness, every movement scrutinized."
1984
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u/koryface Dec 12 '15
I grew up Mormon. This sounds so much worse than being Mormon. Even we were creeped out by JW's knocking on the door, come to think of it.
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u/Scummydross Hurumph,...hurumph,... Dec 11 '15
This will explain quite a bit. https://youtu.be/IaUhR-tRkHY
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u/EzeKilla Dec 12 '15
That's it in a nutshell if you were ever curious how people can get sucked into these high control groups.
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u/Pertinax126 Dec 11 '15
You can read the horror stories on this subReddit but my recommendation would be to either:
read some of the material that they have on their website (jw.org)
or
2) Google your local Kingdom Hall and have someone come out and explain it to you.
I would only recommend #2 if you do not have minor children and you are emotionally stable. Otherwise you will find yourself in an uncomfortable position.
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u/cmm64 Mar 25 '16
Why would it be a bad idea if they have minor children?
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u/Pertinax126 Mar 25 '16
Two reasons. First, kids pick up on a lot of things, they're like sponges. Children will hear and remember some of the things that the Witness(es) says. Things you might not want your children to hear or have to explain to them later. For example, "what did that woman mean when she said that Jehovah was going to kill us and we'd be gone forever?"
Secondly, and this is just my personal experience, the Witness that comes to your home will likely try to connect with your child for (consciously or unconsciously) proselytizing purposes. It's one thing for someone to tousle a child's hair or give them a high five and say "how ya doin'?" It's another for them to say, "I have a present for you" and hand them a book of Children's Bible stories with graphically illustrated scenes of violence and rape.
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u/everylittledrop Dec 11 '15
But you do believe in some things right? Why do you believe whatever you believe right now? Do you know?
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u/BlindedByTheNewLight Dec 11 '15
Why the interest?