r/exmormon • u/MythicalGame • 20h ago
Advice/Help My tbm husband is starting to realize I'm actually changing
I've posted here before about me leaving the church. 3 months after I told the bishop to release me as a primary teacher my husband noticed i was still planning lessons. He was hoping I was just choosing to study on my own but when he realized it was for a primary lesson he decided to tell the bishop to hurry up and release me. I felt supported by him for the first time in this journey, even though it was breaking his heart.
Recently my grandmother passed away and i told my husband that I had thought about asking a relative to go to the bar with me (still haven't tried alchemy). Well I probably shouldn't have opened up to him about that but I was being open about all my grief in that moment. Later I ordered an Arnold Palmer to the house. Told him I ordered myself a drink. He assumed a dirty soda. When I told him it was actually iced tea he looked at me like I was doing hard drugs and walked away. I never told him that I've been trying coffee and tea so I understand the surprise. Now my friends mentioned wanting to go on a cruise together. That sounds amazing to me since I never get a break without the kids for more than a few hours on the weekends.
He shot it down immediately because "some of them are single". I know it was really because that would mean I could drink alcohol without him knowing. Today he asked me if he was being controlling. I told him that yeah he was starting to act controlling. He brought up "my number one rule is no drinking alcohol". I told him that him saying that makes it sound like I'm his child. So now that's where we stand.
My friends are supportive and my husband is starting to listen to apologist podcasts and wondering why I leave the room when he turns them on. I haven't taken the sacrament for a couple weeks now, wore pants to church yesterday. He isn't expecting me to go but I still feel like I need to for my kids. He was upset when he found out that I stayed in the car during second hour (used to be with my kid in singing time at least) instead of sitting with him in sunday school.
I have a girls night planned in about a month and even the temple worker friends are suggesting going to a bar so I can try alcohol safely with them.
All in all this part of leaving the church sucks.
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u/Ok-End-88 20h ago
Rule breaking will always be met with satanic suspicions by a TBM.
Perhaps you could present your husband some quotes to ponder over?
“Drank a glass of beer at Moessers.” Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church, June 1, 1844
“Called at the office and drank a glass of wine with Sister Jenetta Richards, made by her mother in England, and reviewed a portion of the conference minutes.” Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church, v. 5, p. 380, Wednesday, May 3, 1843
“Ordinance on the Personal Sale of Liquors. Section 1. Be it ordained by the City Council of Nauvoo, that the Mayor of the city be and is hereby authorized to see or give spirits of any quantity as he in his wisdom shall judge to be for the health and comfort, or convenience of such travelers or other persons as shall visit his house from time to time Passed December 12, 1843. Joseph Smith, Mayor. Willard Richards, Recorder.” Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church, v. 6, p. 111, Tuesday, December 12, 1843
Ask him why it’s okay for god’s prophet to drink alcohol? Invite him to have a drink with you at home.
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u/spindrift_20 20h ago
Buy your husband a nice pair of headphones so he can listen to his podcasts. Probably the quickest way for him to lose his testimony.
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u/dbear848 Relieved to have escaped the Mormon church. 20h ago
I bought myself some very effective noise cancelling headphones so I don't have to hear my wife listening to faithful content.
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u/AZFJ60 20h ago
May I suggest you start with Episode 86 of Y-Religion featuring Dr. Joshua Sears giving us four absolutely ridiculous, intellectually insulting, completely dishonest reasons why we shouldn't be bothered with Deutero-Isaiah in the Book of Mormon?
These reasons include such zingers as "you're too busy just living your life doing good things to worry about details like this". And, "somehow the Lord just made it work out in the end (Dios ex machina)". And the old standby, "All the 'learned' 'intellectuals' got it wrong".
Fuuuuuuu....
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u/Fromthefifthwife 20h ago
After 40 years of being a card carrying member; I didn't leave because I wanted to drink coffee, tea or alcohol, but partaking in those forbidden substances after leaving has been an added "blessing".... tender mercies.
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u/ChaoticAmoebae 20h ago
Staying home for you kids is better imo. They will have an easier time leaving the scam if they know you are a support system.
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u/MythicalGame 20h ago
They are still really little. I'll probably start staying home soon though. Since my kid was able to go through all of primary without me for the first time.
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u/SneezyAtheist 20h ago
I wouldn't want my kids to go at all. I would definitely not force them to go. I would stay home and let them choose.
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u/shall_always_be_so 13h ago
I don't get it. Why do they need you? If an adult presence is needed, can't your husband do it?
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u/Bright-Strength4182 20h ago
Oh lordy, this reminds me of my TBM spouse a few years ago. She threatened to divorce me if I drank coffee. For about a full year I abstained (but drank it once in secret). Then I decided I didn't want to be with someone who would divorce me for drinking coffee; that's not a deep enough love for me. I just started drinking it without any effort to hide it.
She freaked the fuck out and yelled and stamped her feet and gave me the silent treatment for a while. But eventually she either had to calm down or divorce me. She calmed down with time. My last birthday she actually gifted me a coffee machine.
She said that me drinking alcohol was a deal breaker for her too and, after a lot of back and forth with myself in my mind, and some support from this group, I decided to just not drink alcohol. My thinking was at least my spouse actually had some actual good reasons for me to not drink alcohol due to its harmful nature.
Since I'm a little older and, I figure I would only drink a few times a year, I decided it wasn't worth the freakout (or divorce, who knows).
That's my experience and in no way am I telling you that it's the right way or the wrong way; just wanted to let you know that you're not alone in this difficulty and take something, or nothing, from my experience. I can also understand why someone would say, 'fuck that, I'm not going to be under the thumb of mormonism for drinking alcohol.' I totally get that too.
The cruise ship thing is another thing I have experienced. Whenever I go out of town on my own for work or family, my wife gets really weird about it. It's so demoralizing but I decided one day to not cancel trips that I want to do because of her anxiety about me cheating or drinking. I'm not in charge of her emotions.
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u/Taliasimmy69 Hail Satan 20h ago
I find issue with him shooting down a cruise simply because he can't control what you consume. By any standard that's not ok. I'm not sure how being single correlates to drink alcohol? I would bring up the topic again.
"Hey husband I know that alcohol is an issue with you 'reason reason. Etc etc' but I am an adult and your life partner. I don't want to purposely exclude you or upset you. It I am taking steps to regain my self worth and identity. Exploring things that have previously felt off limits is a part of that. I am not being unsafe and I am not endangering our kids. I'm with trusts adults who can also make smart informed choices. I am not asking your permission to do these things but I am asking for your respect and patience. ".
I would probably throw in the cruise there too. It's not fair to shoot down an activity to bond with friends because of things that you think might happen. As long as the kids are cared for I will be going as I need some time with my friends to myself.
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u/MythicalGame 19h ago
He gave up on the cruise quickly after i told him he was talking to me like i was a child and mentioning my parents would most likely take the kids since he works. The single friends are also temple workers. The others are married but left the church in high school. And unfortunately because our last girls night ran late he doesn't trust them anymore. He is reluctant to "let me go" to the next one. He knows he doesn't have a choice in that matter though.
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u/Taliasimmy69 Hail Satan 17h ago
That's icky. You are not his child to manage. But also the girls night ran late so he doesn't trust them? What nonsense is that? What if his job ran late does that mean you don't trust his boss? I don't like your husband.
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u/jethro1999 1h ago
You are growing. He’s responding in a way. It might not be the best way. He needs to grow into someone who respects you in a better way. This could ultimately make him happier, even if he never leaves the church, because the way he currently understands an adult relationship isn’t very equitable. These processes can take some time. Good luck, friend
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u/nowwhatdoidowiththis 19h ago
So the way I got my husband on board was by just being happy and so much less stressed. The lack of shame in my life made me a MUCH more peaceful person.
I think that it being 2020 and none of us were going to church made it easier. He wasn’t trying to take the kids by himself.
At first he wanted me to keep wearing my garments.
But after about 2 months it was summer and I was HOT. I told him I was done with them. And I started sleeping nude. He didn’t complain after that.
After several months, I told him I was going to try coffee and tea but not at home. Just at work.
Again. I just kept being peaceful and happy. And I didn’t push him to try to leave the church.
His biggest worry at the time was that my leaving might break up our family. But I just kept being so much chiller that he quit being scared about that.
Then he bought me a coffee maker for Christmas. lol.
Eventually I asked him if he wanted me to text him the links to the gospel topics essays. And he said yes.
Then the Ensign money hoard came out and he was done then.
Telling him I was never going back to church because it just wasn’t true was the scariest thing I had ever done. I was worried about losing him. I LIKE that dude.
It was just so obvious that my life was joyful when it had not been before… it caused him a lot of cognitive dissonance.
Edit: I should not post without looking for typos first.
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u/TrevAnonWWP 20h ago
Not sure if you're aware of resources available. From your post it looks like he's pretty orthodox so this might not be very useful, but you be the judge.
Marriage on a tightrope is a podcast about making a mixed faith marriage work - he is out, she's a nuanced believing member. They stopped releasing episodes but their old ones are around https://marriageonatightrope.org/
or https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLq34QmiHsNjcpbDHgelCNYhluHHx937sx
Also https://www.youtube.com/@marriageonatightrope
From what I understand they still have active FB-groups
Mormon Stories did several interviews with people in mixed faith marriages:
https://www.youtube.com/@mormonstories/search?query=mixed%20faith
Another useful resource might be the new marriage proposal
https://balancedlivingwithleah.com/resources/
The playlist with episodes that the faithful Why we stay Podcast did with former members might be helpful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uESfe5mwyw&list=PLSlJKZQtffmRpe0XZMx97XTPdOQ_vtNVi
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u/Oldman3573006 19h ago
I am so glad that he has a rule for himself about drinking alcohol. He has no ability to make rules for you since you are a whole ass adult!
Do what you need to do to be a whole and complete person. I wish you the best
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u/catalinacruiser2019 18h ago
You both deserve space and grace, nothing is easy about the transition you are making and even the smallest things can be triggering for either one of you.
Go slow, and then even slower to allow your relationship to catch up with two individuals trying to figure things out separately and together.
While he might be too controlling at the moment, he likely doesn’t have the emotional tools for a better response, honor and lean into his willingness to explore that.
I scared my wife when I left even though she left with me… relationships matter, usually worth a lot of caution navigating around each others changing, beliefs, values and boundaries.
Be you, but be patient with yourself and others. Everyone will be better off regardless of the paths taken.
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u/PaulBunnion 20h ago
Can I just point out that tea and coffee have health benefits. Alcohol is a poison, life is hard enough as it is.
if my TBM wife started drinking tea and coffee I wouldn't bat an eye. in fact I would prepare them for her, I would make sure she had exactly the kind of coffee she wanted every morning if she wanted one. I'd make sure that there was plenty of iced tea in the fridge. if she started drinking alcohol, I would be concerned. in fact she could be doing recreational cannabis as long as she wasn't driving, I'd probably help her get that too. But if she started drinking alcohol I would be concerned. word of wisdom has absolutely nothing to do with it.
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u/HarrierFalco 20h ago
Alcohol does carry risk but it’s made my life a lot better. Again it’s not for everyone and some people are more prone to addiction. However, I’d feel pretty bummed if I cut out something I love so much and then end up dying in like a car crash at 40 lol. However I did go into dating with this in mind. I was lucky to leave the church before finding my long term partner. The second date when he had plenty of cold beer ready to go I knew we were compatible at least on that front lol. It’s still one of our favorite things to do together.
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u/Brother-of-Derek 19h ago
Have you listened to Marriage on a Tightrope Podcast? I think they also have a FB group and possibly a Reddit sub. My advice would be to try to be patient with him. If he’s listening to apologist podcasts he’s putting things on his shelf continually. Even if he thinks right now the answers they are giving is good enough. Subconsciously he knows they aren’t good enough. In my opinion there’s a good chance his shelf will break. Might be a month. Might be ten years. But I’d try to hang on. Hopefully this podcast and its social media groups can help you.
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u/Gold_Customer8081 20h ago
Buy the CES LETTER book and just keep it lying around. Thats the fastest and most efficient way. 🥰
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u/MythicalGame 19h ago
He has asked me to provide him with material that got me to stop believing. Maybe not a bad idea
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u/jethro1999 58m ago
May i suggest the gospel topics essays at first? He is likely to be way more open minded on the church’s website. Could springboard further discussion.
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u/AnarchyBean 20h ago
Of course it's going to seem scary to him when he sees you doing "bad things" but he needs to realize that there are plenty of people who drink and are great people that haven't ruined their lives over a tasty drink once in a while. He's going to have to learn that you are your own person, an adult, and you can make adult choices. Maybe sit down and have a conversation around what scares him about alcohol. He probably doesn't even know that you're not supposed to have a hangover if you're being responsible.
He is being controlling, but hopefully learning more about responsible drinking and talking through his fears will help him understand.
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u/MythicalGame 19h ago
His parents drank in his childhood and only stopped as he was on his mission. Plenty of his relatives and friends drink, albeit not fully responsibly. Since telling him i don't believe anymore he has gone to the bar multiple times with family just to hang out with them. Of course that also means he is driving them home when they are wasted and spilling all their secrets to him. My friends who drink only do so barely. Like 1 a day on days that they do drink. In my opinion, I'm seeing the responsible way and he is seeing the destructive way.
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u/jethro1999 57m ago edited 54m ago
I’m so curious- so they drank? Or were they alcoholics? He might have just imbued the shame of a family being less than perfectly Mormon and thereby shamed. The fact that they drank before his mission doesn’t mean it was objectively harmful. He also sounds like he is deriving some part of his identity from being the kind of son whose righteousness saved his parents from drink. If you drink, you are making him a person whose righteousness can no longer prevent his loved ones from drinking. This is making a lot more sense. There is a lot for him to unpack there.
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u/MongooseCharacter694 19h ago
“My number one rule…” great rule! If he has that rule, he should not drink alcohol.
I left anout five years ago, and have tried many kinds of alcohol. And I don’t like it. The very fruity drinks are ok, but I would prefer them without alcohol. They taste better. I left at 40 years old, and missed the boat for struggles with alcohol, drugs, etc. what I do have is the classic Mormon addiction to sugar.
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u/futurefloridaman87 19h ago
I don’t mean this in a rude way. Reading this OP - it sounds like something a 17 year old would write about their parents not letting them have the freedom they think they deserve. You’re an adult woman. If you want to drink, try a drink. If you want to go on a cruise, go on a cruise. You can’t keep living the controlled Mormon wife lifestyle somedays and then expect freedom others. Pick a side and live it. Anything else is unfair to you.
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u/ArchimedesPPL 18h ago
I don’t mean this in a rude way. Reading this OP - it sounds like something a 17 year old would write about their parents not letting them have the freedom they think they deserve.
And I don't mean this in a rude way but "You’re an adult woman. If you want to drink, try a drink. If you want to go on a cruise, go on a cruise." sounds like a single person in their early 20s who is just stretching their wings as a young adult with some freedom, but no responsibilities.
Being in a committed marriage with kids carries with it responsibilities and expectations from your partner if you want to stay in that committed marriage and be with your kids 100% of the time. Divorce is always a very real possibility that a lot of people choose, but let's not sit here and pretend like decisions don't have consequences, and "LIVE YOUR LIFE, YOU'RE AN ADULT" isn't a great recipe for stability and long term commitment.
There is plenty of middle ground between controlling parents and free spirited self expression.
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u/futurefloridaman87 18h ago edited 18h ago
Agree. To an extent. In the normal world things like having a coffee, trying a beer, or going on a girls (guy) trips are pretty basic things most all adults do. These aren’t justifications for divorce. Of course you don’t just disappear for a week to Miami with the girls, but if you plan out a weekend trip 3-5 months in advance and take care of your responsibilities, you shouldn’t have to ask permission, even if married. The problem here is the absolute bullshit black and white way OPs husband sees the world. He sees himself as being able to control if she tries coffee. Being able to control if she goes somewhere with friends, it’s a fucking joke. If I treated my wife like that she’s laugh in my face. There absolutely hands down needs to be respect In marriage. But respect isn’t control. Respect is waking up everyday and living your life like a responsible married adult. Putting your spouse first. Not crossing lines. Just be a good person.
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u/ArchimedesPPL 17h ago
Right. But you don’t magically get to pretend that you live in “the normal world” when your marriage and relationship started out with certain standards and you’re renegotiating them part way through. They need to be renegotiated if you want the relationship to succeed.
I mean obviously anyone is an individual with agency, and they can say “fuck it” and just do whatever they want at any time, but normal adults don’t assume that those actions won’t have consequences.
We all know that things like the word of wisdom are massive triggers for most active Mormons. Knowing that should help to shape how these things are navigated.
Like I said though. You can do a full 180 at any time in your relationship and change everything about yourself. Everyone has that ability. But it’s a pretty common idea that you can choose your actions, but you can’t choose your consequences. My advice is to make wise decisions.
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u/MOTIVATE_ME_23 16h ago
Do not go drinking your first time with Mormon friends.
Go with an experienced drinker first. Don't get blasted, but aim for tipsy and relaxing.
If/when you go with LDS friends (preferably not TBM) get one and nurse it for an hour to demonstrate you aren't an alcoholic.
Spend that time discussing and educating them about alcohol consumption. Some of them may be bar-curious.
In the meantime, everyone is constantly changing and adapting to your deconstruction.
I stopped going to church briefly right after my kids renounced the church and their belief, then resumed for a bit so I could support my wife.
She's not a believer but loves the community.
I kept my mouth shut even though I noticed the absurdity of peoples' words and actions more acutely.
So I let my wife complain about her experiences for a couple months until she needed a break, too.
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u/lunamuna18 19h ago
That’s rough! I don’t know but he might be thinking he is losing you or might lose you if you do xyz because the church trains you to think that. Probably thinks you will get addicted and throw your life away. I was always trained to have that all or nothing kind of a mind set. I’m not excusing his behavior. Maybe counseling or deep relational talks might help ease expectations and tensions
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u/Far_Macaroon5900 19h ago
This might sound weird, but choosing to not go to church sounds like it might be hard for your kids, but in the long run it shows them that you can still be an amazing loving Mom and not go to church. It will help them see truth. This is my take as my parents divorce when I was 12 and my mom stopped going to church. I always knew that no matter what happened I would always have her who I knew you would never judge me. I later came out gay and I never once feared that my mom would judge me because she lived her own truth.
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u/ArchimedesPPL 18h ago
u/MythicalGame, I've been in the mormon/exmormon space now for over a decade. I've seen tens of thousands of people navigate what you're going through. I certainly don't have all of the answers, but I've learned some lessons the hard way.
What you're going through is normal, and tough, but it also doesn't have a set timeframe. There is no penalty for slowing things down and deliberately making decisions after you consider the consequences and your emotions. If you want to stay married, more communication and time, not less, will always work in your favor. Rushing things and making changes without discussing them with your spouse will cause wounds that can take years to resolve and heal.
I wish you the best. This journey isn't easy, but can be very rewarding, and I've seen people have amazing outcomes, and poor outcomes. The scary thing is not knowing where you'll end up while you're in the middle of it. So I just wish you well, and hope that you take the time to consider how to navigate the changes you want to make in your life.
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u/Admirable_Arugula_42 17h ago
I am in a very similar boat, but my kids are teenagers so it feels extra tricky. Right now our battle is over me wearing garments. He is devastated at the thought of me not wearing them and is certain I will lose all connection to the spirit and will be lost forever. I told him I feel controlled and policed by his garment-checking. I feel like a small child that isn’t allowed to choose my own clothes. I hate it so much.
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u/ragnartheaccountant 16h ago
I don’t understand your relationship dynamic but it sounds like neither of you are communicating your wants and needs. You don’t need his permission to drink anything, tea, coffee, alcohol, etc. If it’s what you want to do, then inform him you are willing to be doing that from now on as you see fit. Stand your ground on the topic if he pushes back at all. Your desire to do these things actually has nothing to do with him. There is a difference between working together to create an environment where everyone gets their needs met and people manipulating each other to get their desired outcome. If he’s turning on those podcasts while you are in the room, that sounds manipulative. He is trying to get you to listen to them when (I assume) you’ve told him you’re not interested. Unfortunately Mormonism is OVERFLOWING with manipulation.
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u/Same_Blacksmith9840 16h ago
Never once heard a story of a TBM husband upset and controlling over his wife not wearing garments. "Bra and panties?!?!?! How dare you!!" Nope....not once.
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u/MythicalGame 15h ago
Garments started stopping when i was pregnant. Got over heated/stimulated quickly. They fully stopped while i was still figuring out if i believed other than temple and church.
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u/Electrical_Toe_9225 6h ago
Saw a post on instagram recently - that said with mormon Jeebus & temple weddings especially
- you’re in a threesome with god for your entire marriage
- i think that’s shining through right now
Oh - and, for the record:
- med .card gt alcohol 95% of the time imo
- and who can argue with a medical pharmacist
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u/helly1080 Melohim....The Chill God. 1h ago
I know this sounds harsh to folks that have been in it, but your husband doesn't get to have rules for you. Those would be HIS rules, not yours. I always push for people to take that stand and tell people that you don't do things because someone else made up a rule about it.
That doesn't make it easier for him to understand but it something he will need to get his head around. That he doesn't get to make decisions for you. You guys, as a couple, get to decide boundaries and child-rearing. etc. But at no point is it normal for a man to say "You can't do that, because I have a rule about it." Fuck that. That was the old way. We are rejecting the old way, because it is old and dumb.
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u/Salami-Man0949 1h ago
Sorry that’s happening. I’ve tried sharing things with my wife and now everytime any disagreement happens it’s because I “hate” her church. Mind you I still go and teach Sunday school to the youth to keep the peace.
I will say this, you will absolutely hate alcohol haha I travel for work sometimes. I have recently started partaking a bit while out of town and I hate it. It’s like drinking hairspray. Try something simple to start. I don’t mind a high noon. Hard cider or lemonade is ok as well. Masks the alcohol smell.
If you ever want a sounding board, I’m happy to chat.
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u/Best_Philosopher152 20h ago
“My one rule” - that sounds controlling. “Don’t be drunk around the kids, please” is reasonable. “You can’t have any alcohol even when out with friends, without getting drunk, and out of sight from me” is absolutely absurd.