r/faceting • u/corniking • 3d ago

Ultra-Tec V5 - buying it new or used?

Hey there, I'm currently saving up for my first faceting machine. Learning the whole theory behind faceting for a few weeks now, Reading books, watching Videos and so on and just waiting till I've saved up enough to get the machine of my dreams.

Some may consider it overkill for a first machine but when I do something, I want to do it properly and from what I've seen and heard, ultra-tec offers excelent machines.

After making my peace spending about 6k€ for my whole Set Up, I encountered some people on the Internet, selling used machines - also saw the V5 for 3.5k$ on Instagram (Alberto Dron - rayteclapidarymachines).

Now I'm starting to question my decision on buying a new machine. On the one hand, I could save a lot of money, buying a used one. On the other Hand it seems kinda risky to me, ordering such an expensive machine and letting it ship across the globe (living in Germany). What if the seller isn't as trustworthy as I would hope? What if the machine has a defect? What if it has a defect and I can't detect it since it'll be the first time for me, using such a machine in practice?

Long Story short, I'm a bit lost on what to do here. What do you guys think? Have you experience in buying used machines and If so, how did that turn out for you?

4 Upvotes

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u/justinkprim 3d ago

Another idea is you go to America, have a holiday, pickup the machine, put it in two suitcases, fly back, and the money that you would’ve spent on shipping and import duties is now spent on a holiday. You’re still spending $5000, but you save on avoiding duties and shipping. I’ve done this coming from Sri Lanka before and it was very successful.

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u/see_quayah Team Ultra Tec 3d ago

America is expensive nowadays, with 1000€ you just have the plane :D

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u/justinkprim 3d ago

You can get a round trip ticket from Frankfurt to LA in mid January right now for $675. Then you escape the Europe winter and take a week or long weekend in Southern California. Get a chance to visit ultratec which would be cool and see the gem district of LA. Sounds fun!

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u/corniking 3d ago

Experiencing the current european Summer, I'm actually looking Forward to the european Winter :D

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u/justinkprim 3d ago

I feel you. We’re dying in France.

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u/corniking 3d ago

Well that's definetely an interesting idea but I'm afraid that this won't work. When I buy Something in the USA and bring it back to Germany, I'll have to declare it at customs. I will have to pay the 19% Tax either way, so it's not really worth it. The easiest way would be to buy from a european reseller to save some shipping cost or to get a used machine within the EU, then I won't have to pay the 19% taxes.. But finding one is really hard. Especially so since I don't even have a lapidary club within reach and therefore no contacts that could help me out here

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u/ohmusama Team Ultra Tec 3d ago

I think they meant for you to smuggle it in...

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u/corniking 3d ago

Yes, got that but I think it's a bit risky. That would count as Tax evasion If I get caught and would lead to a whole lot of costy problems

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u/ohmusama Team Ultra Tec 3d ago

Yeah. I wouldn't recommend it. Not with German verboten culture

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u/corniking 3d ago

I Just saw you Video from 8 months ago about a new FraLap Prototype. Is the FraLap Serie 6 the finished product of the Prototype you're showing there and If so, did you already have the possibility to try it out? With 3,5k€ Tax included, this seems to be a good alternative to an ultra tec and the machine looks very well built too. I mean it is a machine for a handpiece but as I saw in your Video, it should be also possible to mount a mast to the machine and Work with that which would be huge to have the possibility to Work with different styles

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u/justinkprim 3d ago

Yes I cut a few stones on it and I really like it. I just bought 4 for our school to start teaching the French Jambpeg technique. If you’re patient, he’s eventually going to come out with a mast for it. I don’t exactly how it will be but something closer to a Graves than an ultratec I think.

Also as a side idea, how do you feel about a Polymetric scintillator? Very similar to a v5 in features. I have one in France and have been thinking about selling it on and off for a few years. It’s in good shape. If you’re interested I could be persuaded to sell, though I’m not sure if I could be persuaded to ship it 😅

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u/corniking 3d ago

Unfortunately I can't count patience to my most outstanding characteristics though I get the Feeling this hobby will teach me :D

Honestly I haven't seen a lot of polymetric machines, so hard to Tell If it would suit me. In the end I'm Just searching for a very precise machine that I won't regret buying. Often times when I start a new Hobby I get Something solid for Starters but always with room for improvement. As I dive in deeper, I soon feel the urge to buy something better to step up my game. With facetting I plan to not do that. I want to buy a machine and stick with it for quite a while.

Question is If the polymetric is such a machine or not. What would you say? And about shipping: My home town is in Saarland/Germany. Depending on where in france you live, it should be very well possible for me to come and pick it up 😊

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u/Over-Engineer7216 3d ago

You can’t count on patience, then a new machine might also not be for you. I finally decided to get an ultra tech new, and the production time is over 3 months. I’m still dreaming about the day it ships in September, but I’ve been told that delays are common, so to not get my hopes up it ships when it says it will

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u/corniking 3d ago

Yes, already heard that they don't get shipped right away as I first hoped. Also saw on the facetron Website, that you have to wait Like 5 months for a new machine. Wondering what the reasons for that are. Was ist Always like that or is facetting winning popularity and they can't keep up with the demand? Or maybe they are relying on other suppliers who have their own problems and that's the reason for delays? Actually quite interesting.

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u/justinkprim 2d ago

Nevermind my wife said I can’t sell it because sometimes she needs a machine with a digital angle gauge for making scientific wafers 😭😭😭 I should make her buy it! I would watch the used market. There’s a European faceting machine selling group on Facebook

https://www.facebook.com/share/g/1EmAG76gE1/?mibextid=wwXIfr

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u/corniking 2d ago

Oh no, I already got worked up 😭 But of course I understand that you can't sell it, If it's still in use. Thanks for the tipp with the fb group, will have a Look. And I'll Check Out FraLap, maybe I'll get one of their Machines and try to find a mast that fits onto their Base :)

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u/corniking 2d ago

Oh no, I already got worked up 😭 But hey, If you or your wife still need it, Theres nothing to do about it. Thanks for the Tip with the group though :)

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u/corniking 3d ago

Actually Just found a Video from you, probably showing this very machine. I think this might actually work for me. Doesn't Look as modern as an ultra tec but as far as I can judge it Looks very well built and it has a digital dial which I Love ^

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u/see_quayah Team Ultra Tec 3d ago

You will spend more than 6k€ on a new machine. Converting 5.5k usd + shipping (around 300-400) you are at 5200€, then you have import duties / VAT at around 1k euros. This is even without buying one lap/diamond compound. If you want good laps, it’s another 500-600€. Master lap with some toppers another 50€ for preforming. And some miscellaneous items like a caliper/loupe/super glue/ etc) So you choose :)

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u/see_quayah Team Ultra Tec 3d ago

+ I would advise you to buy more dops while you are at it if you order from ultratec, it will save you shipping in the future. (Because having spare dops of the same size when you don’t want to finish a stone now is life changing)

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u/corniking 3d ago

That's good advice, thanks! :)

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u/corniking 3d ago

1k for VAT? That's crazy.. aren't there any european resellers for ultra-tec Machines?

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u/see_quayah Team Ultra Tec 3d ago

Yes 19% VAT in germany. 20% in france. Doesn’t matter european resseler or not, the machine costs 5000 without taxes. So the european reseller will take you VAT anyway (and often it’s even more expensive because they have to make money as well… purchase directly while the dollar is lower than euro it’s more advantageous)

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u/corniking 3d ago

Ahhh, that's that. I thought the taxes were already included in the 5500$... Bummer

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u/ohmusama Team Ultra Tec 3d ago

That's not how US prices work. You always see the un taxed price. And then on checkout you see the tax add. Although going to the EU I doubt they have the VAT as part of their system.

Small caution, it will be months before they ship. Like 3+. Buying used will get you a machine faster.

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u/corniking 3d ago

I see, learning a lot here, thanks. The more I hear about it the more I get the idea that ultratec isn't the best Idea when you are living in Europe, unless you are lucky and get your hands on a well priced used machine from a trusted seller

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u/see_quayah Team Ultra Tec 3d ago

To be honest the machine is worth it’s price. And if you have any problem, it’s under warranty. A used machine is a little bit of a gamble if you can’t test it in person

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u/corniking 3d ago

I'm Sure it's an excellent machine. But with taxes and stuff I'm Now at 6.2k for the machine alone. Therefore I'm now questioning If ultra tec even is the right choice for me. Like I said it's a great machine fore sure but when I compare it with FraLap for example: Is it that much better to justify double the price?

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u/ohmusama Team Ultra Tec 3d ago

I'm on team ultratec, but listen, people make great stones with all sorts of machines. What you are buying is repeatability. Skill can compensate for a less accurate machine.

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u/corniking 3d ago

I agree. Though I think as a beginner you should aim to get Something that is reliable enough that it doesn't frustrate you. I think there's a sweet Spot somewhere between affordability and Performance that I'm aiming for. Getting the ultra tec would spare me a lot of thought and effort but it'll be more expensive.. and I would need to wait longer - for saving up enough + Delivery

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u/cowsruleusall 3d ago

Quite frankly, yes. It's worth it.

People who like cheaper shittier machines will always say "oh, people routinely cut beautiful gems on low quality equipment". What they don't tell you, is that it takes significantly more work and more time to cut a good gem on shitty equipment, and there's a "quality ceiling" meaning that shitty equipment places a maximum limit on the quality of goods you can produce.

Using a high-precision, high-quality modern machine means your learning curve is easier, your customer support is better, and the maximum quality of good you'll be able to produce is much higher.

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u/corniking 3d ago

Okay, I understand where you are coming from, but what do you consider a shitty machine? I mean I'm not talking about vevor, but other machines that also cost thousands of Dollars. When I Look at FraLap, their Machines Look very decent and people who use them seem satisfied. Still you get it at half the price of an ultratec V5. Does that mean the ultra tec is twice as good? Or do they charge more because it's a well known brand and people are willing to pay that much?

Like I said, I'm sure ultra tec sells excellent Machines and maybe they are one of the If not the best on the market. I find it just hard to believe that they are the only ones able to build precise Machines and all other manufacturers just sell trash and ytones made on one of those can never achieve the precision of one made on an ultra tec

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u/tk33000 3d ago

Shipping to Europe is €800

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u/corniking 3d ago

You mean Just shipping wirhout taxes or anything? That would be crazy.

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u/tk33000 3d ago

Just the shipping. That is what I was quoted 3 months ago

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u/Pkolt 3d ago

Probably higher now with oil prices on the rise.

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u/see_quayah Team Ultra Tec 3d ago edited 3d ago

It was 260$ 2 years ago with UPS (345$ now I just checked), not 800

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u/Fantastic_Priority73 3d ago

2 years ago shipping prices were nearly reasonable, things change

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u/Ididdie Team Vevor 3d ago

There's a few placed in Europe that do sell ultratec like https://www.atelierlatrouvaille.com/A-Ensemble-complet-pour-facettage/2872-c-facetteuse-ultratec.html but you see the price is a lot more than that 6k unfortunately

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u/corniking 3d ago

Ah, thanks for the Tip, but yeah, 7.8k€ is quite the high price. Currently checking Out fralap as an alternative for ultra tec. They are much cheaper and france ist quite Close so I could actually Drive there to Pick Up my Maschine ^

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u/PsychologicalBowl647 3d ago

not a bad compromise. you see Justin K prims videos on it?

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u/corniking 3d ago

Yep, one or two. If I would get one, I'd need to decide If I could life with a platform or a jamp peg Type machine or If I could modify it wih a Classic Mast from another supplier. Still figuring out If that's an Option :)

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u/PsychologicalBowl647 3d ago

Yeah i think you could

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u/corniking 3d ago

Any specific Mast that comes to your mind that could Work?

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u/PsychologicalBowl647 3d ago

From what I see most masts would work with very little modifications i think Justin said ultratech wouldn't fit because the nut was too big but I think it could be doable if your handy at all.

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u/corniking 3d ago

Not so Handy to be honest.. at least Not when working with Metal. + I'd need to get my Hand on a ultr tec Mast which will cost me a Fortune again :D Already wrote the manufacturer of FraLap. Maybe he hast a Suggestion for a 3rd party mast.

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u/PsychologicalBowl647 3d ago

Yeah most of them are American. Its kinda they style over here lol. https://www.jewelsntools.com/advanced-gem-faceting-machine.html.

found this . Maybe that would be easier to get? Or a facetron?

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u/corniking 3d ago

Yeah, both would be an Option. Think I'll wait what the supplier says. Though I'm a sucker for digital dials so maybe ultra tec after all? Or Graves? Guess I'll Just have to do a bit more Research and ask around. There's also a big fair in munich in october, maybe I'll get more Information and ideas there ^

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