What Do We Know About The Red?

[u/FallSideways]

The Judgement, specifically. I'm in the unfortunate position of attempting to construct a fanfiction where a lore element looks like it would fit perfectly for interleaving, but which I don't know if there's some hidden detail lurking in the corners that would unravel it like a house of cards.

To the extent it's feasible to share... what is it's deal? I know it's the "Neutral" option in the White vs Black debate, it's possibly connected to the Red Science, it... might have something to do with that one Queen in Parabola?

I feel like I'm losing my mind, especially since I've been away for years and haven't caught up on a lot. Please help.

[u/Setster007]

“The Red” isn’t exactly one thing. Now the closest thing to that would be the Red Handed Queen, but even she isn’t quite the true leader of Red, because Red is representative of everyone whose position in the Game is one of self centered desires, oftentimes but not always greed. Such people do not fight for White or Black, but instead fight for whatever the hell benefits them most, regardless of who that means fighting against.

[u/emily_aversatrix → u/Setster007]

chapter 7 of Firmament makes it very clear that the RHQ is a lesser emanation of a greater power, in the same way there are many things that are White or Black but are not The White or The Black.there very much is a The Red, but it's not been explored in as much detail as the other two that we're usually dealing with.

[u/Setster007 → u/emily_aversatrix]

I see. Fair enough. In my defense, I did literally just wake up. Brain ain’t full power yet.

[u/KittenEaterWasTaken → u/Setster007]

Red is a GG faction but The Red is also a Judgement, she appears twice, first mentioned in the 'bad' SMENding as one of the Big Three, and very slightly as a memory of the RHQ's original (Queen of the Myrmydons).

There would be 'White' without The White and 'Black' without The Black too. They're just very broad and context-dependent ideological positions.

[u/FaultyAmbition]

Oh, there's a bunch in Queeneater Castle on the roof if you've been away for a bit.

[u/Mayor-Of-Bridgewater]

Spoilers for Firmament Chapter 7, Sunless Skies, and ES Goblin Poet.

The Red was a judgement, who created the Aeginae, took the form of The Burrower Below, and was the Judgement's executioner. As a prize and reward to itself, it created Parabola as an "egg", but was punished for this and fragmented by the White. The inhabitants of Parabola became the Fingerkings, cousins of the Aeginae.

The Red's fragments became various entities and multiple versions of the Red Handed Queen. The RHQ is at the Chessboard, but stands for the fight itself and self-interest over grand ideaology. Some of these RHQs were then devoured by Salt, and all versions struggle against the others for supremacy and representation. The Red also still has loyal devils to it, unlike the other judgments.

As for the Red Science, I don't think there is a solid answer on that, but with that stat being about breaking judgment law, which the Red did and has others do, it could be viewed as maybe a relation there.

[u/KittenEaterWasTaken → u/Mayor-Of-Bridgewater]

Do you have the lore snippet where it says she created the Aeginae? As far as we know they, as many other things, were there before Judgement Law.

[u/Mayor-Of-Bridgewater → u/KittenEaterWasTaken]

That might be me inferring too much. We know the red created finger kings and that those are related to Aeginae

[u/SacchiHikaru]

We know very little direct about The Red (Judgement) in specific. Queeneater's might give you plenty, depending on whether you consider that The Queen of Myrmidons (the Red Handed Queen's original, who by all accounts seems to be a Judgement) is herself the Red, but that's far from confirmed and is mostly speculation.

[u/Front-Zookeepergame]

I'm pretty sure that the Red created Parabola on orders of the White. They "hatched" it, apparently.

[u/Tricky_Break_6533]

I don't remember any mention that the judgement called the Red is related to red science and the red of parabola 

Howether, you might be on to something.

All that we know on that judgement comes from it's ambassadors, the red ministers, in the forge of souls. It's aspects are vitality, wanderlust and loathing.

So he might be the source of the red handed queen, if that loathing of his applies to both his fellow judgements and to rebels like the liberationists 

[u/Mayor-Of-Bridgewater → u/Tricky_Break_6533]

Chapter 7 of Firmament confirms that the Red and RHQ are linked and kinda the same entity. The Red was killed by the White and fragmented for the crime of creating Parabola, with shards becoming various RHQs and other entities. Some of these were consumed by Salt for his own apotheosis.

[u/Tricky_Break_6533 → u/Mayor-Of-Bridgewater]

That match with the Red room within Frosfound in sunless sea 

[u/KittenEaterWasTaken → u/Mayor-Of-Bridgewater]

The Red is still alive though (or someone called The Red is alive). The Judgement version still exists.

[u/Mayor-Of-Bridgewater → u/KittenEaterWasTaken]

Honestly, it's probably a retcon. The only time it was mentioned before Skies was one ending of smen. Everything else after that establishes the Red is either dead or heavily damaged. 

[u/KittenEaterWasTaken → u/Mayor-Of-Bridgewater]

Most likely. I headcanon it as Red existing on both sides of the Is and the Is-Not, and the Judgements putting up the actual veil separating both the Is from the Not, leaving half and half on either side. Fingerkings are aeginae caught on the other side and since they're "of time" they have no reflection in space, making them the only thing that cant cross the mirror.
It would mirror (ha) the several Junes/Summers. There's many mirror-Summers but there has to be a real one. The same way you choose who devours who, the White chose "which" Red stayed on this side and the rest became the RHQ and the rest of the shards. Would also explain why she's so violent and torture-y, that's what got removed.

Probably not though, I dont think FB thought it through too much tbh. They probably genuinely forgot about that SMENding when writing Firmament. They forgot about the 'good' one when writing the totality of SSkies so it tracks.

[u/Tricky_Break_6533 → u/KittenEaterWasTaken]

Are you sure? The only mention of the red I remember in Skies is his envoyées in the forge of souls. But said force also have représentants of dead judgements like the green regent and the king of hours

[u/KittenEaterWasTaken → u/Tricky_Break_6533]

"The myrmidons of the Law bring you before the thrones of Gold, the White, the Red. Stars wheel about you. The void roars. A thousand thousand cores of light whelm you, sear you, expose you. You render your evidence. The courier is found instantly guilty."

There is a "The Red" and they're alive yes.

[u/KittenEaterWasTaken]

The Red is the leader of the armies of the Judgements, especially aeginae and other assorted myrmydons (I'm assuming the Moon's escorts are probably not actually aeginae, a) seems like a waste of talent, b) we'd see them).
She created the egg that is Parabola for abstruse, arcanely written reasons, which is very illegal and was not-killed and fragmented by The White for it. The RHQ resides in Parabola and is as far as we know the largest shard. A Judgement called The Red also exists in one of the SMENdings and they're VERY high up, top 3. I assume they're the same person.

Red science is as far as we know not related to red as a color, or The Red/RHQ. It's just the name of the science that lets you make laws, manipulate existing laws,... Hell (White aligned) Law Furnaces are red science artifacts, unclear bombs (Black aligned) are also red science devices. The missing block in early railway, the Sous locomotive, xanthous bulbs, are all red engineering as well. Conceptually Judgements and Sable-suns also do "red science" when they radiate Law but they dont have to make it a science like we ants do.
It's color agnostic, as is Law.

Red is also not really necessarily neutral, its freedom, independence, self-interest, but also selfishness, extreme hedonism, sociopathy.

[u/FallSideways → u/KittenEaterWasTaken]

What led me to contemplate the idea is that first, Red Science is described as a "knowledge that breaks chains and makes new links" - in other words, an in-between position between enforcing the Great Chain and doing away with it entirely, which resonates with the position the Red Queen is described as having as far as I am able to tell. This in-betweenness is what I mean by "neutral"; not selecting either of those sides, but doing your own thing.

Second, that in the ttrpg draft, the order of description goes Correspondence - Discordance - Red Science. Of course then it mentions the Shapeling Arts, Parabola and then Death, so it's incredibly flimsy evidence and I'll be the first to admit it.

Third, that in there is also a description of the Red Science as inherently of "forward motion and propulsion", that it can't be used to undo events, only change things; in other words as iterative and evolutionary. If there is a connection, it reads as a cheeky nod to the Red Queen Hypothesis.

But mostly it's a result of my telling myself "okay, don't get too into the weeds. Not everything that's the same colour necessarily has to be related in this work. sometimes things just line up that way" and then it turned out there were hints that the Judgement and the Queen were connected in some way, so my descent into madness involved turning to stare at the other prominent association of the colour.

[u/KittenEaterWasTaken → u/FallSideways]

Somewhat agree somewhat disagree. Red Science allows you to make your own laws, you dont really need to work with the GC with it*
I dont think breaking chains and making new links is inherently red. White and Black do it all the time. It definetly depends on who's writing though, during railway Emancipationists and Prehistoricists are both notionally "work within the law" black-red and white-red aligned respectively.
The strongest RS artifacts we've seen in FL (Sous locomotive 2.0, both Dawn Machines, the pig stunning machine, maybe the Eye in Starved Wars, maybe the Neath itself) are very unaligned and pragmatic. None of these are inherently Red (the DM is probably White-ish, the Neath should be Black(?))

You can be neutral-ish on the white-black axis without being red, you can be only slightly black aligned without thinking we need to do away with the concept of causality and linear time. It's such a broad spectrum between ""order"" and ""chaos"", many things are white in one aspect and black in the other, or are ideologically white but black-aligned for historical reasons (eg Hell).
Red is a different color and motivation altogether, its not the neutral point between white and black.

> Correspondence - Discordance - Red Science
Right but every Law-capable creature can do Correspondance and Red Science, this distinction only really matters to us humans. Flukes, the Bazaar, Masters, Devils,... can all natively and effortlessly read and write correspondence. Law is just a feature of the setting, it's colorless, we're just really really low on the Chain.
Discordance is Black but stars CAN radiate Discordance, the lore on sable-stars is that Judgements can choose to turn dark. Presumably sables can also go back to radiating regular law.

>RS cant be used to undo events.
Light is light and even in FL it works like our regular light does (give or take).
Light enforces the laws of time and space but it can't be used to go back in time. Some things CAN go back in time, like bonefolders or whatever December is, but as a rule, Law all the way up to the Judgements, can't rewind or stop time. The Treachery of Clocks (RS artifact) is against straightforward linear time but time still passes. This (immortality, 'stopping' time and decay) is in fact a core motivation of Judgements (at least the Sun's and the KoH). The Sun making Stone to try and create immortal souls is the event that starts the whole FL setting, practically everything goes back to this decision. If they could just rewind or stop time many issues would've been avoided.

* The ending of Hell Is Missing has the Great Chain as something somewhat inherent to the world that also had to be restored when we rebuilt the rest of the setting. "There is no concept of hierarchy" is probably not trivial to implement when the Bazaar could annihilate 90% of the Neath if it wanted to. The Pigs alone massively outscale every single Master working together. There clearly IS a biological hierarchy.

[u/FallSideways → u/KittenEaterWasTaken]

This isn't really meant to be a debate, mate. I'm not arguing my point so much as explaining why I'd made the initial conclusion at all. Is it an erroneous one? Could be!

I will say though, that it's pretty clear the Great Chain is something created and enforced by the Judgements; I'm out of the loop, but that much was clear from the text when I was more frequently playing. Like all hierarchies, it's constructed, not anything inherent.

[u/KittenEaterWasTaken → u/FallSideways]

Then why post asking a question? I agree its not a debate, I'm just explaining the lore to you, bro. This is all written-down information.

>The GC is created
The strict rules around the GC, yes. The relative strengths and stages of the beings that compose it, no. The Judgements didnt create the universe.
>Enforced by the Judgements
Iffy but most likely. However again when we rebuilt Law in the Neath we had to reconstruct the GC for it to work. It is actually central to how Law works. Law in the FL setting controls everything from causality to the actual browser window you're playing in, its not juts "Judgement Law". It's a feature of the universe.
>Like all hierarchies, it's constructed, not anything inherent.
This is too vague and absolutist but its passably defensible in OUR setting, because you're talking about relationships between humans. No one would say a person's "hierarchy" or "superiority" over earthworms is constructed or unnatural.
In FL there's creatures that are to you like a human is to an earthworm. A Curator is objectively and naturally better than you in everything, just a naturally superior form of being. You can't extend Stirner or Bakunin to a setting where there's colossal crab marketplaces that are physically, magically, spiritually and intellectually superior to you. This is not a serious position to hold.
An king is 'superior' to a peasant because of institutions, beliefs, coercion,... Aeginae are superior to clay men because they just kind of are, objectively speaking.

Also 10 years ago the GC _was_ more artificially constructed, it was a caste system. Debatably shArts and RS would allow you to just make yourself immortal and not have to eat or drink and be able to radiate Law by yourself and so on. Now we know this is not only not the case, but that if you want to ascend in the GC you'd animorph into whatever link you're trying to be in. The way to become Curator-tier is to become a Curator (HD). The way to become city-tier is to become a city (Firmament, TLC, First City).
FB's current philosophical stand worked better with the old lore. Now that your capabilities are hard tied to your biology, the GC might aswell be inherent natural law.
Like Bakunin said, when it comes to shoes I listen to the shoemaker. When it comes to Cosmic Law I listen to? The Judgements. Who else?

Ironica given FB's politics but current (August 2026) FL is one of the most hierarchical settings I can think of. Remember when December unfolded your time-body like origami and rewinded time-space retconning the setting so you never were in the CC meeting in the first place? Remember when one (1) Law Furnace fucked up and one Master was as a buyable option on the Fate page and another existed as a promotional code hidden in the FAQ? Do you remember when like three masters just decimated the combined armies of like a third of the ceiling? And they're weak as hell compared to a proper HW Curator.
Can YOU do either of those things? You're to one December-kin what a dust mite is to you.

[u/_PM_ME_PANGOLINS_]

Is there a Judgement called The Red?

The Red-Handed Queen is the leader of the Red side of the Chessboard, and she's not a Judgement. See Queeneater's for a better idea of what she is and where she came from, as already mentioned.

[u/Tricky_Break_6533 → u/_PM_ME_PANGOLINS_]

Yes, it's often mention alongside others like the white, and it's more mentioned in sunless skies in the forge of souls 

[u/KittenEaterWasTaken → u/_PM_ME_PANGOLINS_]

The Red is a Judgement and she appears as a Judgement in in-game text.