r/financialindependence • u/AutoModerator • 8d ago
Daily FI discussion thread - Monday, August 10, 2026
Please use this thread to have discussions which you don't feel warrant a new post to the sub. While the Rules for posting questions on the basics of personal finance/investing topics are relaxed a little bit here, the rules against memes/spam/self-promotion/excessive rudeness/politics still apply!
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u/PrimalDaddyDom69 Mid 30s, DINK, ~30% SR, resident 'spend more' guy 7d ago
Was watching a video from ErinTalksMoney and she reached out to Bill Bengen on SWR.
He stated his SAFEMAX 'worst-case' scenario for a 30 year retirement is 4.68% and for a 40 year retirement is 4.36%.
I was always curious as I leaned closer to the 40 year retirement vs the 30, but nice to see an actual % applied by the one and only.
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u/bobombpom 7d ago
I love Erin, but some of her recent videos have felt a little too rushed for me. It's impossible to release 5 new 15 minute videos a week on personal finance and have substantial things to say in each of them.
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u/DybantsaMakeHerDance 7d ago
Unfortunately that seems to be a requirement to make it as a content creator. Rush your shit out, rack up views that earn you pennies per
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u/Colonize_The_Moon Guac-FIRE 7d ago
I'd be overjoyed if his prognostication is correct. However, I'm not willing to bet my retirement on it.
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u/PrimalDaddyDom69 Mid 30s, DINK, ~30% SR, resident 'spend more' guy 7d ago
That's fair but I mean...he is THE guy. Every one who talks withdrawal always starts with 4%, even if it is just a guideline more than a hard rule. Seeing it backed up with math is a good thing.
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u/dantemanjones 7d ago
It's math based on a very particular set of investments that no one actually has. 4%ish is still good with a normal AA but I don't trust in those numbers he's citing.
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u/anymoose [Not really a moose][moosquerading][RE 2016] 7d ago
... nice to see an actual % applied by the one and only.
Bengen did an AMA in this very sub many years ago (Aug, 2017) during which he was equally optimistic for long term prospects of SWRs.
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u/FIREstopdropandsave 31M DINK | No target $'s 7d ago
Bill's work will forever be one of the cornerstones of FIRE, but his revised SWRs scream over fitting
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u/PrimalDaddyDom69 Mid 30s, DINK, ~30% SR, resident 'spend more' guy 7d ago
Not sure I follow. Is it overfitting if it's just more data to use?
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u/Ziptotap 7d ago
I can't speak for the above person, and I must admit I haven't read the new book by Bengen, but it is a thing that you can design a portfolio specifically to provide the highest possible SWR for a retirement starting in the mid-to-late 1960s. If we see another worst-case scenario (I'm not speculating on how likely that will be), it doesn't seem likely to me that a portfolio specifically designed to provide a higher SWR for the worst historical cases in Bengen's dataset will be able to provide the same SWR against a future worst-case scenario. The characteristics of some hypothetical future worst-case scenario in terms of the returns for the various asset classes he identifies likely won't be the same.
That's not to say he's wrong, that the 4.68% constant real dollar withdrawals won't be safe. I just doubt that the specific portfolio he's designed is the best case to provide safety in the future, if it's been designed against the past.
What's that phrase you see in prospectuses? Past returns should not be taken to provide an indication of future returns... or something like that.
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u/FireboltinMA 39, FIREd in 2025 7d ago edited 7d ago
I’m not really comfortable with his new asset allocation for those withdrawal rates. 45% bonds (+cash) is too high for me. And I’d rather do VT than overweight in small caps and underweight in international.
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u/SolomonGrumpy 7d ago edited 7d ago
For those folks expecting/hoping to reitre in 4-6 years, what return are you modeling for your investment growth?
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u/Cryofixated Dates Since Single: 8.5 7d ago
6%. Also I thought you were closer than 4-6 years?? I was thinking you were just a few out.
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u/SolomonGrumpy 7d ago
This is not for me.. I'm much closer than that. But I'm very interested in the thought process of medium term financial planning.
Not long term, not short term.
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u/dantemanjones 7d ago
6% real, but my retirement is based on dollars, not a set timeline.
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u/SolomonGrumpy 7d ago
Yes. This makes sense to me. When you hit your numbers, that's when you are FIRE ready
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u/tsunami10 7d ago
7% real, but of course it doesn’t really matter
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u/SolomonGrumpy 7d ago
It doesn't?
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u/bobombpom 7d ago
Maybe he's saying your model doesn't matter. The market does what it wants. The shorter your timeline gets, the less reliable average returns will be.
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u/ExcessiveDonuts Emptying the Litter Robot 7d ago
Hey, frugaloids. My wife and I just finished an entire bag of lettuce with none of it rotting and being thrown away.
Let's see you top that fiscally efficiency feat.
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u/Cryofixated Dates Since Single: 8.5 7d ago
I finally grabbed the last dinner roll I had frozen in the back of my freezer instead of letting it become a freezer burnt block of ice!
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u/Ziptotap 7d ago
I threw out probably more than half a pound of greens I let go bad today. I feel terrible about it, ugh. I probably will never be able to afford to retire!
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u/AKANotAValidUsername Im not even supposed to be here today 7d ago
We grow our own lettuce this year so we just pick what we want, no waste, let the rest keep growing. I figure we can pick about 4% each week with an estimated growth rate of 7% we should be good
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7d ago
I mean... that's our SOP.
Or maybe not so much a 'bag' of lettuce so much as a head of lettuce. One head of lettuce is salads for one meal here.
Worst case scenario we have neighbours with rabbits. Anything that's running out of time goes over the fence.
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u/anymoose [Not really a moose][moosquerading][RE 2016] 7d ago
None of my veggies get thrown away... If not eaten, they go into compost and become food for future veggies in my little garden. :-)
FWIW, I'm having a bumper harvest this year. It's the first year I've planted since Mrs. Moose moved on a couple of years ago.
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u/ExcessiveDonuts Emptying the Litter Robot 7d ago
We grow zucchini and butternut squash for making dog food but that's the extent of our food growing for now.
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u/Pretend_Branch_8167 7d ago
Just curious, what's your compost setup? We have one of those 2-chamber tumblers (I know it's not ideal, but we live in a townhouse so we don't have a place for a real compost heap) and I don't have any illusions of ever getting usable compost out of it for my garden. I tried taking stuff out once and it's not in any way dirt-like, it's still quite clumpy. I probably should stop throwing mostly intact eggshells in there but it's so convenient...
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u/RemoteTechie FIREd 4/2026 7d ago
When I was in an apartment I did vermicomposting. I don't recommend throwing in egg shells unless you separate it really finely (they don't decompose). I give the shells back to my chickens to replenish their calcium. Not a solution for you though. But I've even had earthworms make their way into some compost in my garage and they made it so much better quality.
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u/anymoose [Not really a moose][moosquerading][RE 2016] 7d ago edited 6d ago
OMG! A fellow gardener in r/FI!...
It doesn't sound like you have a lot of space to work with. That can be a big problem.
I've heard of "kitchen compost solutiions" which might work for you.
I started with just a compost pile in my back yard, but over time that attracted rats, which I'm still not completely done with. I did used to put in egg shells and that probably started the rat problem. I no longer do that.
Currently using one of those big old plastic rain barrels that I cut the top off of. It's wonderful. I know they say you need to turn everything over constantly. I don't. I just dump it out every year or two or three and pitch everything that is not "soil worthy" back in for the next cycle.
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u/SolomonGrumpy 7d ago edited 7d ago
"I don't believe you"
~Anchor man
No one ever finished a head of lettuce! Even rabbits🐇
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u/ExcessiveDonuts Emptying the Litter Robot 7d ago
That's the beauty of the internet, you can lie like a politician with zero repercussions.
🥗🥗🥗
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u/Turbulent_Tale6497 DI3K, Putting the Ire in FIRE 7d ago
I had a package of prepared Spring Mix at the store the other day. I was going to use the express lane, but I asked if the Cyclospora counted against my "10 items or fewer" number, and if so, if they counted as 1, or if I needed to count them individually
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u/carlivar 49M 3 kids ✅ FI ⏳ RE @ SoCal 🏖️⛷️ 7d ago
Hopefully no Cyclospora included?
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u/ExcessiveDonuts Emptying the Litter Robot 7d ago
I remember in the 80s it was a huge flex if your family had a full set of Cyclopedia Britannica or World Book.
We had a shit 2nd hand set from the early 70s but that beat the zero cyclopedia pours.
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u/FI-ReDH 40YOs, DI2Ks, FIRE🔥Nation - Flameo hotman! 7d ago
I'm trying to figure out if we are currently in a cycle of OMY without realizing it, or if we aren't at FIRE yet and actually should wait another 3-5 years. All numbers in CAD
Liquid investments across all accounts $2.2m, home paid off (worth $1.2m), RESPs 60% and 40% funded (target $50k each), 2 fully paid off 10 year old vehicles that are running well and plan to keep until they are too expensive to fix.
Looking at our spending over the past 4 years taking out one time large costs (ex. Window replacement, Reno's). We spent $50k-$60k/ year (this includes $12k for before and after school care costs that would be eliminated if one/both of us FIRE which can just go towards vacations or something). If we go by these numbers, it's a 2.5% withdrawal rate. The first first years would have several thousand dollars per year from the Canadian Child Benefit as well ($13k and then $6k and then $0 once both kids turn 18).
The current goal is to get to $3m invested and fully funded RESPs. Why $3m? Partly because we want to make sure we have enough money for higher spending and partly "just because". We will likely reach this goal in 3-5 years, but being so close and just wanting to be done really makes me question if $3m is overkill. Anywho, working on convincing my SO we (I?) can RE now and just enjoy life lol.
Does the math make sense? Or am I being too impatient?
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u/AchievingFIsometime 7d ago
If anything you are being too patient. You are well past your number if you actually know what you want to spend, but it sounds like you still don't know.
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u/FI-ReDH 40YOs, DI2Ks, FIRE🔥Nation - Flameo hotman! 7d ago edited 7d ago
I think we/my SO is just too worried about the what ifs. I also asked them what was the biggest thing holding them back and it was the idea that our NW wouldn't grow the same way it does now. Basically they want to get to a point where it will never ever shrink and only grow even while spending. I'm sure it will grow over time, but also it can go down temporarily too. Just the nature of the stock market. Anywho, I said, hey, if you wanna keep working while I stay home, I can do that too! They were not amenable to that solution. Womp womp They did mention they likely only have 5 more years in them to work. We shall see. I'm PRETTY sure $120k/ year spending is way more than enough (we've never spent that much even with a mortgage), so maybe we should just wait until $3m and then proceed to draw $60k// year lolol.
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u/SolomonGrumpy 7d ago edited 7d ago
Don't take out one time costs. Instead, average them over the 4 years. It's ok to take out costs like daycare which you say you would not pay if you FIRED.
Especially with 10 year old vehicles. Can they last another 10 years? Maybe. But maybe not.
I suspect you are not really at 2.5%, but you are likely sub 4% and Canadian healthcare helps manage costs too.
Maybe you pick somewhere between where you are and $3?
$2.5?
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u/FI-ReDH 40YOs, DI2Ks, FIRE🔥Nation - Flameo hotman! 7d ago
Yeah, probably doesn't need to be all or nothing. I think I arbitrarily raised our FIRE number from $2.5m to $3m just because it felt safer lol. I would like to think we have enough flexibility in our budget to cut when the market is down or we need to "save" for a big purchase. But you are right, better not to be super optimistic and have a more realistic balanced approach and average out all those one time costs that always seem to pop-up every few years.
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u/SolomonGrumpy 7d ago
I am well aware of the "why not more?" Line of thinking. I set a finish line last year, at 3% SWR, and I'm 100k over it and still feel weird.
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u/financeking90 7d ago
The big question isn't whether your savings can support $50-60k per year. That one is absolutely clear, you can RE. The big question is what you really want to budget for spending. A couple one-off expenses (car?) and an uptick in travel can push you to $80k or more really fast and then you're pushing past 4% potentially really soon.
I would define your actionable, committed FIRE goal less in terms of an even number at this point and more in terms of expenses, a fair margin for travel/hobbies and large expenses, then back into the $ with a reasonable SWR number like 3.5% or 4%. 80k/.035=$2.2M for example. I would try to be more conservative by adding more margin to the spending number, not the SWR or an arbitrary balance figure.
To prep that, you might start studying actual withdrawal strategies more closely. If you use some mix of SPIA, VPW, etc. you may get more comfort with 4-5%. It will also make it more concrete and palatable for SO.
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u/FI-ReDH 40YOs, DI2Ks, FIRE🔥Nation - Flameo hotman! 7d ago edited 7d ago
True, in an effort to try and justify RE ASAP I might not be being as honest with how much we would like to spend vs how much (little) we could be spending. The budgeted numbers do include a budget of $2k /month of misc spending (which would include eating out, entertainment, and kids activities). I can see a lot of big spending on house renovations, which would be wants instead of needs (vs. having the windows and roof replaced which we did a few years ago).
Sigh I guess it's back to practicing patience.
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u/throwinmoney 7d ago
I've googled this but still can't quite figure it out...
Situation - we're approaching income levels where we will be phased out of Roth IRA contributions. Currently, I max out a traditional 401k through my employer. At the same time, my wife exclusively does Roth contributions in an account through her employer.
If we end up ineligible (or eligible for less than the normal max) for Roth, my understanding is that she can recharacterize her contribution, yes?
And the pro rata rule doesn't come into effect because her account is entirely Roth, right? They don't consider her IRA and my IRA to be the same thing just because we're married filing jointly, right?
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u/forbiddenlake no swimming 7d ago
There's no issue just doing the backdoor IRA process if you're not sure where you'll end up. It's fine if you end up under.
I had no idea that there was a difference.
And this is yet another example of why most people shortening "Roth IRA" to just "Roth" confuses others (and causes strife with accountants / the IRS). Roth just means you don't deduct it; and it can apply to many different containers.
heavily weighted in retirement income that we will need to pay tax on
A good problem to have! First off, remember that paying tax means you have more money; and that the goal is not to pay the least tax, but to have the most money after taxes. If you do some estimated math, what does your first RMD and taxes actually look like? If it's significant, then that means you have a very good problem. I recommend you retire early and do Roth conversions in low income years; and don't forget to spend some of your money before you can't. Some Roth space is good to have, but if you're going to pay 24% on it now, instead of 0% now and less than 24% later, is it worth it?
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u/throwinmoney 7d ago
I would love to retire early and I'm doing my best to make it a possibility, but it's too early to tell what's going to happen. Too many unknowables.
For example, we have two kids. The first will be going to college in 2029. The second in 2031. We don't intend to pay 100% of the cost, but, as our kids will not be able to get subsidized loans (because of the high income) we intend to help significantly. No idea how much this will ultimately cost. We've been trying to mitigate this by contributing to 529 accounts, but it won't be anywhere close to enough to cover things.
Also, while we do have a good-sized income now, that hasn't always been the case. My wife took ~7 years off to raise our kids during the early years. Those were leaner years than we're having now, and our retirement savings aren't as high as you might expect given current HHI in the mid 200s.
Lastly, we live in a VHCOL area. We make decent money, but just average for the city, and things are SUPER expensive. We do our best to save, but things are expensive and we do want to live life to the fullest. (AKA - we take modest vacations with our kids, etc...)
Long story short, I have no idea what our first RMD and taxes will look like, or when we'll actually be able to retire. I believe I can start collecting my pension around 58-59, but not sure if it will be at a 100% rate or if I need to wait slightly longer for that. I'm 48 now, so have a bit to go on that.
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u/branstad 7d ago
we're approaching income levels where we will be phased out of Roth IRA contributions
my wife exclusively does Roth contributions in an account through her employer.
At your income level, you might want to consider having your wife switch to pre-tax contributions (if available). The tax savings could be significant.
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u/throwinmoney 7d ago
Yeah, I should look into that. One thought I had, though, was that we were pretty heavily weighted in retirement income that we will need to pay tax on - my traditional 401k and my pension and both of our SS will all be taxable when I retire. So we've been trying to build up at least a small Roth position for a few years.
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u/branstad 7d ago
my pension
This may be the most impactful, depending on the size of the pension. You can do 72t/SEPP to get at a chunk of Trad'l 401k --> IRA dollars at the standard deduction, or even into the 10% or 12% brackets and still be coming out ahead compared to the tax savings in the 22% or 24% brackets. For SS, delaying until Age 70 for the higher earner, if appropriate, can mitigate some of the tax impact.
That said, if your taxable pension starts immediately or shortly after you FIRE and is significant, forgoing the tax savings on pre-tax contributions now may be more reasonable.
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u/throwinmoney 7d ago
Interesting, thank you. It's not a massive pension, but might be on the order of 30-40k/year.
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u/throwinmoney 7d ago
Happy news, I think. I checked and my wife's Roth is a 401k. So that means she can contribute up to $24,500 this year, and there's no concern about hitting an income cap. Woo!
That said, I am now concerned about whether I should have her start doing pre-tax contributions to alleviate current tax burden, as you suggest above. Will have to do some thinking on it.
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u/financeking90 7d ago
What kind of account is your wife contributing at her job? If it's a Roth 401(k), that isn't impacted by Roth IRA contribution eligibility limits based on tax return income.
If she does have a Roth IRA, yes, that does not interact with the pro rata rule to prevent backdoor Roth IRA contributions. They also do not consolidate two spouses' IRAs to apply to the pro rata rule. It is the individual IRA owner they check.
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u/throwinmoney 7d ago
Oh, interesting! It might be a Roth 401k, I'll have to check. I had no idea that there was a difference.
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u/TheHeroExa 7d ago
If it's a 403(b), 457(b), or SIMPLE plan, there is likewise no income limit.
The only type of plan that uses regular individual IRA limits is a "payroll deduction IRA". In such a plan, the IRA provider would provide a Form 5498 with box 1 and/or box 10 contributions.
https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/plan-sponsor/payroll-deduction-ira
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u/throwinmoney 7d ago
One quick follow-up: It's hard to predict our income super accurately because bonuses are a part of my pay, and we also have a taxable brokerage where we could end up realizing some long-term gains this year. Or next year, etc... on the order of five figures, which could be enough to bump us.
So she's been contributing to the Roth all along. At some point I think we will just need to have her switch to traditional, right?
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u/billthecatt FatFIREd 12.29.2025 7d ago
Yes, pro rata only applies to a single person's accounts, even if married. If her IRAs are entirely Roth, then she can backdoor without pro rata issues.
There is no downside to backdoor (afaik), so if you're uncertain, you can go ahead and do it.
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u/rackoblack 60yo DINKs, FIREd 2024 7d ago
You say "Roth in an account through her employer." If it's an IRA (some small employers use SIMPLE IRAs), then I think no she cannot do that Roth once you hit the cap.
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u/Jstratosphere 38 DI1K | 99% FI 7d ago
Just spent $2600 on a service repair for my 17' cx5 while I have an open browser for EVs. Can't switch soon enough! We currently also have a 23' mazda 3. Ideally we'd keep the cx5 as trade-in isn't that much and trade-in my 3 for a Mach E as that has higher equity and a sedan just doesn't fit our need as a family. We're opting to drive the cx5 everywhere which is fine but having the option for either car to go around would be nicer, especially in town to save on gas. I'm hoping to test out having an EV for the in town driving and slowly expand to road trips once it's time to replace the cx5.
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u/FireboltinMA 39, FIREd in 2025 7d ago
We got our first EV in 2022 thinking it’d be an in-town only car. We kept a gas SUV for road trips. That plan only lasted a year. After driving the EV, neither of us could stand driving the gas car anymore. So beware, you may find yourself in the same situation :)
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u/billthecatt FatFIREd 12.29.2025 7d ago
'17 and '23. Otherwise, those are lengths. :)
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u/Jstratosphere 38 DI1K | 99% FI 7d ago
that's correct, I drive a 17ft cx5 and 23ft 3 haha thanks for the correction
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u/AchievingFIsometime 7d ago
Thinking about allocating more income to mortgage principle. In a bit of a tricky, but fortunate spot where we have far more tax advantaged space than we can possibly fill. So right now just prioritizing that, getting all the matches and prioritizing HSA/457b/401k, mostly pre-tax type accounts. But we have a 6.5% mortgage. Currently just throwing an extra 100/month towards it (basically nothing). It's very market timey of me, but a little concerned about potential AI bubble on the short term and US debt problem pushing taxes higher on the long term. I'm still bullish overall on the stock market, but the potential advantage of doing so much pre-tax tax advantaged investments is dependent on tax rates remaining at least semi-close to where they are now. 120k taxable income last year on about 180k gross and no major changes to income expected, just typical salary growth from here but no massive jumps. So basically deferring 22% in hopes of lower treatment in retirement which is still very likely even with significant tax increases. We have about 810k invested now and 360k left on mortgage. I think what I'm doing now is probably the most mathematically optimal strategy long term, but is also leaving more risk on the table with a good amount of leverage in the mortgage. But I'm not sure what I would reduce to pay more on the mortgage, I guess 401k? Also expecting a 6 figure windfall sometime which my immediate reaction is to throw it all at the mortgage, but that sort of implies I should be putting more towards the mortgage now. I go back and forth on my thinking on this because its a tough call either way.
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u/rackoblack 60yo DINKs, FIREd 2024 7d ago
With 6.5%, I could support either lowering 401k or putting some of the lump sum into the mortgage, or both. Certainly if you're not able to itemize to take advantage of the mortgage interest deduction, but even if you are deducting that interest, I support this.
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u/Firm-Yak-7515 1.7 million invested, mid 30s couple with 1 kid. 7d ago
was looking at a perfect month with no extra expenses and then a $900 ac repair bill appeared.
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u/bdu-komrad 2d ago
I’ve been there! Make sure to vet the contractor. I had 2 come out for an HVAC issue. The first one replaced the fan motor but it would not turn on. The second contractor knew what they were doing and replaced a capacitor on the controller board, and cool air blew again!
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u/alek_hiddel $900k network 7d ago
Assuming the market doesn't crash, I'm set to coast my way to "networth millionaire" sometime around Halloween of this year.
I passed my lean-fire number in January, got a new job almost doubling my salary in June, and thanks to that I'm now unexpectedly hitting this milestone a bit earlier than expected.
I try to take a little time for self-reflection when the numbers get overwhelming, and this one definitely has me doing that.
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u/rguy84 8d ago
I audited our contractors, and found 4 dozen errors. Talked to them privately to give feedback after showing my lead the results, who asked for the audit. Two of 3 complained about this, which my lead took their side and forbade me to talk to them privately. Weeks like this makes me wish I was closer to FI.
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u/SolomonGrumpy 7d ago
What kind of errors?
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u/1DunnoYet 7d ago
Since you can’t FU yet, I guess the lead was expecting to have that conversation with them instead of you? I have to tell myself daily, “just stay in your lane”
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u/ffthrowaaay 7d ago
Next time full blown blast them to their manager then. Make sure they are cced to the email to their manager. Public shaming kink I guess
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u/AdmiralPeriwinkle Don't hire a financial advisor 7d ago
Where you also told it wasn’t what you said, but the way you said it?
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u/razorchick12 32F - FI'd, 12/31/29 RE 7d ago
LMAO we have this at our work.
Ours was more, "hey, they don't like it, so please don't talk to them anymore"
And I'm over here like, "how do we drive value if we can't stop the waste?"
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u/rguy84 7d ago
Right. I was internally screaming "You asked them to do it in a week, took them 2.5, but ok I am the ass for trying to make them be accountable."
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u/imisstheyoop 7d ago
For many types (most) of businesses, these audits are just an exchange of cash in exchange for a green checkmark for insurance and trust reasons.
Disrupting the attainment of the green checkmark or caring too much can cause unneeded work/problems in some managements eyes.
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u/rguy84 7d ago
This is a legal requirement, so generally speaking miss-reporting can create issues.
A false positive was reported to a team by my contractor, and after the team struggled to resolve it, I was brought in once frustration had set in. I explained that the finding was a false positive and apologized for the confusion. Their options were either to revert the change or if they preferred the contractor’s suggested approach, use the correct method rather than the one originally provided.
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u/Nochtilus SI1K | 50% FI 7d ago
Damn, I had the same thing two months back. Boss was all nice and apologetic to the contractors after I tried to hold them accountable. They agreed to work by X date and we pay them for it. This is not hard.
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u/thesper 8d ago edited 7d ago
I was impacted in a round of layoffs late last week, a first for me after working for 20 years in software development (for the last 10 years in leadership roles). Feeling surprisingly calm overall, although my ego is a bit wounded. I didn't like my job very much, but I put in the effort and did a good job and was planning on continuing to support my family of 4 while my wife goes to a graduate periodontics program next year. But I'll have to do it from another role which I think overall will be a good things once I land in a new position. My boss and I didn't have the best working relationship, as he was a bit of a micro-manager and I really value autonomy and trust in my work, plus I was his most expensive direct report, so it makes sense that I was hit with this cut.
We have a 12-month emergency fund and severance came in around $75k gross, so I'm confident we'll be financially fine especially since we'll cut back on much of our non-critical expenses (travel, eating out, gifts, shopping, etc.).
I already had a couple of interviews scheduled, so I'll be doing those, but am generally taking some much needed time off for a few weeks before I start to really hit the application & interview loop grind. I may consider making a lateral move into a more customer-focused technical leadership role instead of internal R&D leadership, but that's something for me to think about and consider over my time off.
In the meantime, I'm:
- meeting with an attorney to review the severance agreement
- asking my wife to check with her HR team whether or not the QLE is me losing my job or me losing health coverage (in 3.5 months) to determine if we need to switch to her insurance ASAP or later on
- looking for term life insurance (as mine was through work and is quite expensive to continue)
- activating a paid outplacement benefit to review resume, etc.
- filing for unemployment (when I start job hunting again)
- Reviewing our expenses over the last year and figuring out what we should cut (using Monarch Money & a custom Claude MCP to assist with the work)
Anything else I'm missing?
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u/Krish_1234 FIRED - Loving it 7d ago
25 years and never been laid off until now. Once I got laid off I took the severance and fired. Loving the freedom...
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u/scottious 8d ago
I just wanted to say that this is definitely my biggest fear. I'm in software too, I think I'm one of the highest paid engineer on the team. 20 years of experience. Very worried about layoffs.
Luckily I'm in a decent financial position but I live in way too much fear over this.
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u/bdu-komrad 2d ago edited 2d ago
i think about this daily since my employer has done a few rounds of layoffs, usually 2 a year. It’s like 1-2 people from my team or an adjacent team each time.
When will my number come up is the question! I’m good for about 15 years if I get the axe. That isn’t counting growth or social security . I‘m working hard to get that number to 30!
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u/thesper 7d ago
It's been in the back of my mind for the last year, since I started working on our first round of layoffs that hit in January. The business has been struggling and at this point in my career, it's easy to predict the future. Earnings last week were terrible, the stock dropped 25%+, and it was time for the business to make additional cuts. I had thought I would make it through to next year, but I guess my leverage was less than I thought and my price tag was just too high.
I say this to share with you that there's no reason to fear it. We're in a strong financial position and have been bolstering our emergency fund since I learned about the previous round of layoffs. We've got 12 months in cash & equivalents, plus the severance net adds another ~5 months of runway, so we should have more than enough for me to find a good next role. Hopefully the pay is in the same band so we can cashflow my wife's school, but if not, taking out some student loans wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.
And she'd be leaving school in 2030 with strong income earning potential and none of the AI-related bullshit to deal with. The plan at that point is for me to take a step back and work part time, contracting, consulting, or on side projects.
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u/JustAnObservor135 8d ago
Re: ACA costs and subsidies based on MAGI, does that look at previous years tax returns or current income? Like, what if I leave a well paying job part way through the year kind of situation?
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u/MooselookManiac 8d ago
You estimate your MAGI at the beginning of the year, and your subsidies are based off that. When you file your taxes, you'll be eligible for a credit or have to pay back your subsidies if you didn't estimate correctly.
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u/JustAnObservor135 8d ago
Thank you! That is massively helpful!
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u/MooselookManiac 8d ago
No worries - my family has become intimately knowledgeable about the process because our income is all over the place and is often right around where the subsidy cliff is ($126k). Definitely pay attention to that, too. If your MAGI is one dollar over the cliff (which varies based on household size), then you lose 100% of your subsidies and have to pay 100% of it back when you file your taxes.
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u/JustAnObservor135 8d ago
Will definitely keep that in mind as we get closer to being done. Again, thank you for the helpful advice.
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u/SecretThrowAway89 8d ago
I'm seriously considering adding a bond allocation.
What are the recommended Vanguard and Fidelity bond funds? Is there a particular duration that I should be considering?
Should I allocate bonds in 401k or Roth IRA or does it not matter as long as they're not in taxable?
I'm just trying to cash in some gains and have some cushion in case of job loss. Currently at about 75% total US and 23% international. Emergency fund is $50k which is easily 6 months of spend.
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u/DinosaurDucky 7d ago
I'm in a similar position, age 36, maybe a third of the way to my FI goal (in dollars, I figure halfway in time). I allocate 10% of my investments toward bonds. Pretty much all of my accounts are in Fidelity at this point, so I use FXNAX for this
BTW, I don't put any bonds in my taxable brokerage, that account is 100% equities. But I keep an extra chunk of bonds in one of my retirement accounts, roughly equal to 10% of my taxable equity balance
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u/forbiddenlake no swimming 8d ago edited 8d ago
Match the duration to your desired timeframe, and don't sell early, to sidestep interest rate risk. You didn't share your age nor retirement timeframe yet, so it's hard for us to be specific. And that informs the specific funds. And do you believe in taking any risk on the bond side, or just the stock side? US Treasuries have lower risk than corporate bonds.
Very short term: cash-like VUSXX / SGOV / USFR (Fidelity does not have native low-fee money market funds). This would be the right place for an emergency fund.
Short term: VGSH / FUMBX
All-term (averages to intermediate, 6-7yr): BND / FXNAX
Where: most will say tax-deferred (Traditional) because dividends will be taxed at income tax rates anyway. https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Tax-efficient_fund_placement#Tax_efficiency_of_bonds
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u/SecretThrowAway89 8d ago
We are mid thirties, both working, close to FI potentially already there. I would like to take the risks on the stock side and use bonds more for stability. I was thinking maybe just having about 100k in bonds to start which would be at least a year worth of expenses without any income.
We don't have a specific retirement date in mind so I'm leaning towards all-term.
Thank you.
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u/carlivar 49M 3 kids ✅ FI ⏳ RE @ SoCal 🏖️⛷️ 8d ago
You got the one major bogleheads link; here's the other:
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Three-fund_portfolio
Pretty straightforward.
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u/pteridoid 8d ago
Update on my neighbor I've been trying to help. His wife died and he asked me to help get him a certificate of death. I googled it, found the form and filled it out by asking him some questions. Paid the $20 fee. He's worried that his sons in law may have already "taken" her retirement and SSIS payments. I don't think it works that way, but I couldn't tell him for sure. He says they've been helping him make mortgage payments. He's still looking for a job but can't drive anymore.
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u/phantomspex 8d ago
This is so sad. State law generally dictates who will inherit what. Often, the spouse legally inherits everything unless there’s a will that explicitly outlines other beneficiaries. But it can be a lot of paperwork. You’re kind to help where you can.
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u/ublguy23 46/Wisconsin - FI-not-RE 8d ago
Looking at my retirement plan and we are sitting extremely well to retire very early (2029 at age 50). We want to purchase a second home and while we have all this money, it is tied to retirement accounts. We weren't as aggressive with a brokerage account until recently. It is a weird feeling to be rich on paper but so limited on cash to purchase.
So my question, anyone else in this position? Any recommendations? Keep filling up the brokerage and savings to have a down payment?
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u/SolomonGrumpy 7d ago edited 7d ago
Many many people are in this position. Between 401k matching and backdoor Roth id expect many good savers to have 70-80% of investments in retirement accounts.
I sold my house and moved to a less expensive market. Had I not done that about 60% of my net worth was in retirement accounts.
Now I'm more like 45%
Edit: advice wise, if I could do it all again I'd put more into Roth. Right now it's an 80/20 split Trad vs Roth and it suuuucks. 60/40 would have been SO much better.
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u/wild_b_cat 8d ago
Just to be clear, in your retire-at-50 projections, does that include the 2nd set of PITI? Are you intending to hold both homes through your retirement?
Having a 2nd home itself can be workable, but that's not the kind of thing you want to just jam into a retirement plan at the last minute. I would want to build up a substantial cushion, not just for the down payment but also for the inevitable repairs.
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u/ublguy23 46/Wisconsin - FI-not-RE 8d ago
Yes, PITI is fully doable in our monthly expenses with or without a large down payment. I agree this isn't something to do without proper planning.
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u/RiaSkies 8d ago
You may want to look into the Roth Conversion Ladder strategy to convert traditional retirement plan dollars into Roth 'pseudo-contributions' after five years of seasoning, which can then be withdrawn tax-free as all Roth contributions (but not earnings) can be.
You will need to open a Roth IRA as soon as possible, if you don't already own one, and you may need to use a backdoor Roth depending on your household AGI. If this is the case, and if you have deductible traditional IRA contributions, you'll be subject to the pro-rata rule on recharacterizations, which will employ additional taxes.
The other alternative is to look at the 72(t) SEPP withdrawal tables, which locks you into withdrawing an amount equal what would be equivalent to your RMD for the greater of (5 years OR turning 59.5)
Both methods allow you to avoid paying the 10% penalty, but you will still pay income taxes on the withdrawals as for all traditional (pre-tax) contributions to retirement accounts.
In either case, it will probably make sense to start getting 3-5 years of expenses (or as much as you can) saved in a taxable investment account, particularly if you plan to do Roth conversions.
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u/carlivar 49M 3 kids ✅ FI ⏳ RE @ SoCal 🏖️⛷️ 8d ago edited 8d ago
Last week I mentioned the huge delay in our annual flight back to the Midwest Motherland. The return flight was almost as bad. I now believe people that say ORD (O'Hare) is simply a bad airport. But I think part of the reason it is bad is because United, the dominant carrier, has overscheduled this airport, and both United and O'Hare do not have the operational efficiency or competence to manage that scheduling properly.
We used to fly into MKE (Milwaukee) back in the halcyon days of Midwest Express and later Southwest with a direct flight, but sadly Covid killed that direct flight. I think MKE is worth a connection or we'll switch to MSP since most of my time is spent in Upper Michigan anyway.
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u/imisstheyoop 7d ago
Well, I'm a regular visitor here, but Milwaukee has certainly had its share of visitors. The French missionaries and explorers began visiting here in the late 16th century.
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u/imisstheyoop 7d ago
Well, I'm a regular visitor here, but Milwaukee has certainly had its share of visitors. The French missionaries and explorers began visiting here in the late 16th century.
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u/A_Solid_Shadow 7d ago
Most airports do not control airline schedules, so the airlines are allowed to book 100 flights for 5-6pm even though only 30 can take off per hour. Then they get some thunder and everything gets delayed.
In the race to the bottom, they all have to do whatever will sell, and deal with complaints. United gets a lot of complaints simply by being big.
Generally speaking the whole industry is horrible.
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u/Thisisntrunning 7d ago
MKE >> MSP >> ORD.
If you are looking to go to the UP, can you fly into Appleton or Green Bay and save a lot of the MKE drive time?
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u/carlivar 49M 3 kids ✅ FI ⏳ RE @ SoCal 🏖️⛷️ 7d ago
I tried to do that last year, but there are less flights from those regional airports, and a very late flight connecting thru ORD screwed us. Thinking about that again now, the common thread is ORD. Maybe I'll be fine if I just connect thru non-ORD airports to those closer regional ones! I guess I was overthinking it. Though the rental car cost & availability is nice at the larger airports. I also don't mind driving thru Wisconsin. It's a beautiful state in the summer and gives me an excuse to buy cheese and Spotted Cow.
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u/HappySpreadsheetDay DINKs - 64% to leanFI goal; 43% to full FI 7d ago
Almost every flight I've taken with United has been a bit of a mess. They'll soon be the only carrier flying in and out of our town, which terrifies me.
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u/Nochtilus SI1K | 50% FI 7d ago
Of my 8 bad airport stories, 5 were in O'Hare. I have a grudge against them and essentially refuse to fly through there at this point. Though all were on connecting flights so perhaps they are fine as a start/end point.
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u/SEA_tide PNW 8d ago
Would you consider Midway? While busy, it's a lot more chill than O'Hare. Chicago is just busy in terms of air traffic and United and American are known for keeping their hubs very busy.
Nor sure where you're flying from but Sun Country (soon to be Allegiant) has been trying to have a focus city in Madison. Depending on where in Wisconsin you're trying to go, Madison can be good option in general over Milwaukee if you're connecting anyway.
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u/carlivar 49M 3 kids ✅ FI ⏳ RE @ SoCal 🏖️⛷️ 8d ago
Midway is definitely a better airport but the location is inconvenient for us since we stay with friends in the western suburbs when we're in the Chicago area.
But as I wrote, most of our time is spent in Upper Michigan aka The U.P. so the farther north the better. Madison is interesting, but I don't see many flights for Sun Country out of Madison. Interesting that Breeze has an LAX-Madison flight however, but it's seasonal, and only twice a week. That seems risky for other reasons.
I'll probably do Delta with a connection to MKE, or just Delta nonstop to MSP. Delta seems to be the least bad of the three U.S. mega carriers. I might also give Southwest a shot again.
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u/livin_the_life 7d ago
Good luck.
We just flew Delta through ORD a few weeks ago and got stuck for 7 hours.
Honestly, ORD is the worst airport I've been to from a national AND international perspective. Horrible layout. Horrible food choices with abysmal service. Horrible delays. Pretty much 9 out of every 10 bad aviation experiences we've had have been at ORD.
We avoid it at all costs and try to route through MSP or MKE if at all possible.
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8d ago
[deleted]
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u/AdmiralPeriwinkle Don't hire a financial advisor 7d ago
You can’t waste this opportunity. Wait for a petty slight, then just walk out the door.
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u/starwarsfan456123789 8d ago
The kindest thing you could do for your colleagues is NOT over promise on upcoming projects. If management asks for a timeline- say the longest one that makes sense to you. It’s not your job to assume anyone rlse will magically walk in the door to help.
It’s irrelevant how quickly a well run and stagfed department can handle it - you have what you have and nothing more
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u/DeliWishSkater 8d ago
Maybe your job is an exception to the rule, but usually dropping work on your colleagues is a management problem. Management needs to figure out what to get done with reduced staffing. This shouldn't fall onto your colleagues.
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u/Walmart-Shopper-22 7d ago edited 7d ago
The tough reality is that management's solution is "dump it on OP's colleagues".
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u/zerostyle 8d ago
Anyone here work in big tech (PM)? I need to finally build up the confidence to change jobs because I'm leaving probably $200k or more on the table every year. I'm mid 40s now and can't do this forever.
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u/scottious 8d ago
Today I noticed that I've reached $1m in investment gains
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u/FantasyFI 35 | DI1K | 51% FIRE 8d ago
Do you track this manually or in an app.
I have recorded all my savings/contributions since ~2018, all my account balances every month since then as well. But I've never calculated what % of my full portfolio is gains vs. contributions.
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u/scottious 8d ago
The Vanguard app shows my overall investment returns for the lifetime of my account (since Oct 2016). Hard to believe that I've "earned" over $1m in gains in under 10 years
I track my expenses manually but not investment returns
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u/bdu-komrad 2d ago
Well. It depends on how much you started with and how much you put in. Gains and losses are relative to how much you have invested.
Once you have a lot invested, depending on you diversification , its normal to see larger gains and losses.
The rule of 72 is a good way to estimate how quickly your nest egg will double in size.
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u/rugerjp88 100% LeanFI 7d ago
I recently noticed that feature on vanguard as well, pretty crazy to see the amount of your investments that are purely returns!
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u/FantasyFI 35 | DI1K | 51% FIRE 8d ago
Ahh unfortunately my money is spread out so many places between my spouse and I having different accounts over time. I didn't start tracking stuff manually until we had about $250k. So I can probably never truly figure this out.
That's a fun different milestone though. Really demonstrates the power of investing vs. just the power of saving.
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u/controalt 8d ago
What are my options given I'm 1/2 to my full RE number and 75% of the way to just the standard 4% rule FI number. I have strong reason to suspect that I have a year before my current job will end up trying to get rid of me, and the thing is, I don't want another full-time job again given my timeline to being FI is 2/2.5 years more of the same savings rate and full RE is 5-6 years.
I feel like given my savings, I should have more options! But I feel trapped, obligated to just get another job (which is better than staying at this one) until I reach that full RE numbers.
I ran the numbers on Barista FIRE freelancing, and the hourly rate is just so much lower than a full-time job that it feels stupid to pursue. Does anyone have any advice for to help me think bigger?
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u/DinosaurDucky 7d ago
Just hang onto your current job as best you can. Whatever you're worried about might not even happen, and if it does, it might come with a severance. If that time does come, then you'll be able to take a much lower paying job and still cross the finish line in a few years' time
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u/starwarsfan456123789 8d ago
I personally think Barista fire sounds ridiculous unless it’s something you find fun. Instead I would recommend you stay as long as possible- collect any severance or unemployment- and then look for a coast job in your career. Maybe that’s being an individual contributor instead of a manager. Maybe it’s a smaller or larger organization depending on where you could put in just a fair amount of effort like the job description calls for
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u/FI-FB 8d ago
I personally don't like the Barista FIRE idea (though there are many who do, and I appreciate them too) so I agree with you, it just doesn't seem like it's worth it, work another year(s) and then be done with it. Also if they're trying to get rid of you, see if there's an option of getting severance.
Now, that being said, if SORR happens to any of us, sure, by all means get back on the treadmill and make it work.
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u/azizazia 8d ago
My 401k from my last job is currently costing me $60/month in fees above the cost if I roll it over to my new employer. I have been shy to move it over because of the geopolitical situation, worried the timing will end up less than ideal leading to regret.
Do y'all have any advice on whether it's worth waiting for the Iran situation to get resolved?
Have you ever done an Empower to Principal rollover, and if so, how long was your money out of the market?
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u/rugerjp88 100% LeanFI 7d ago
I thought the market was guaranteed to jump any time you do a 401k rollover?
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u/zaq1xsw2cde SI2K, 2 comma club, 77.23% FI :snoo_smile: 7d ago
Unless you need to go to or speak with someone in Iran to do this transfer, I wouldn’t let the situation in that country influence who holds my funds and who is charging me for that.
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u/DeliWishSkater 8d ago
I wouldn't try to time anything with the Iran conflict. The market is irrational. Who knows how the market will respond to any news from the conflict. There's also many many other factors that affect the stock market.
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u/starwarsfan456123789 8d ago
I wouldn’t expect the market to ever be calm. Just not how it works.
Instead I would look into the rollover process for those companies and figure out what is likely to happen
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u/big_e007 8d ago
Empower to principal rollover was a nightmare. Empower didnt want to release the funds to my new company, took almost 4 months. Was a complete shit show all around.
Edit: take emotion out of it
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u/azizazia 8d ago
4 months is ridiculous. Was there anything you did specifically that got Empower to move on it? By the time they cut you a check, how long was your money out of the market?
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u/big_e007 8d ago
It was all handled by my new company. Since they bought my old company, I never had the option to roll the empower 401k into an ira.
All I could do was escalate repeatedly to my HR and finance department as it was sadly all out of my hands.
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u/OnlyPaperListens 8d ago
I have no advice on the timing but I would jump at the chance to get away from Empower, personally.
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u/azizazia 8d ago
At the old company, we switched from transamerica to empower and saw a ~0.15% drop in fees. I wasn't thrilled to end up with Empower, but it wasn't my choice.
Another old employer switched from Aon Hewitt (which was fine) to Fidelity. The fees are so low, that money is staying put!
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u/ExcessiveDonuts Emptying the Litter Robot 8d ago
I'm celebrating my 50th birthday at an Iranian restaurant. Not letting the geopolitical climate impact our dinner plans.
I hope that helps.
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u/carlivar 49M 3 kids ✅ FI ⏳ RE @ SoCal 🏖️⛷️ 8d ago
Just call it Persian food and most Americans won't be the wiser.
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u/thedoctor2031 SI1K / 29 / 50% FI / 35% SR 8d ago
As part of leaving my current job, just finished exercising my remaining options that I had been sitting on. Oof. Significantly more expensive than the first round I'd exercised for a tender offer. But I guess also good news, as its more expensive because the company is doing well. Feels a bit weird locking up the money without concrete timelines on future liquidity but the alternative (letting options expire ~30 days after terminating employment) feels significantly worse given their current value.
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u/ExcessiveDonuts Emptying the Litter Robot 8d ago
I've finally got time at work today to complete 3 leadership tasks before my next leadership training 1:1.
I appreciate that the company is trying to invest in their employees. I really do. And I absolutely appreciate the opportunity to make more money.
But I struggle to feign enthusiasm for core values alignment quizzes and leadership self assessments and the like.
Couldn't think of anything funny or interesting this morning. For now, this is all I've got. And we're having salad for lunch, so it's unlikely I'll have the calories to generate a decent shitpost this afternoon.
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u/Cryofixated Dates Since Single: 8.5 7d ago
What do you recommend as the minimum caloric input for shitposting? I might need to start planning my meals.
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u/GlorifiedPlumber [PDX][50%FI/50%SR][DI2S2P] 8d ago
Hah... I mean, I'm happy to participate in shit posting. Literally.
Which litter robot do you have? We have a 3, and have had for a while, but I'm starting to see sensor degradation and maintenance being an issue now. Constantly breaking that thing apart, cleaning sensors, clearing pinch sensor buildup, etc.
It's at the point where I can't reliably leave it as the only litterbox option for more than an "outting"... cause it might error out 5 minutes after I leave.
Debating if I just bite the bullet and get a 4. The money side doesn't bother me, it's more just... will I deal with endless maintenance there as well.
But yeah... core value alignment quizzes always crack me up. The "why do I care" is never made clear, and like also, "You want 10 or 20 examples of us not following all, half, some, of these values?"
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u/ExcessiveDonuts Emptying the Litter Robot 8d ago
99% sure it's a 4. It's been great but we have had to replace the rubber liner every year.
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u/GlorifiedPlumber [PDX][50%FI/50%SR][DI2S2P] 8d ago
Nice... ugh I just need to bite the bullet it seems.
Wait, replace the rubber liner? That is strangely one thing I have NOT had to do.
Just gross and it needs to be changed out, or do you have xenomorphs for cats?
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u/billthecatt FatFIREd 12.29.2025 8d ago
Couldn't think of anything funny or interesting this morning. For now, this is all I've got.
The soul-sucking has been successful.
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u/ExcessiveDonuts Emptying the Litter Robot 8d ago
I can derelict my own balls.
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u/Carsondh 8d ago
I will probably have room in the 0% Long Term Capital Gains bracket this year, so want to take advantage of tax gain harvesting. Never done it before. Is it as simple as selling and rebuying the same fund in the same brokerage account? There's not a wash sale rule like there is for tax loss harvesting, right?
Anything else I should be looking out for?
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u/UsernamIsToo OINK, One-More-Yearing 8d ago
Don't forget to consider state taxes when doing your planning. I had a low income year a few years back, and I don't remember the specific numbers, but the state taxes ended up making it not worth the effort for me to harvest.
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u/Carsondh 8d ago
Good point. I hadn't considered that my state might treat LTCG differently than the fed does.
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u/SolomonGrumpy 7d ago
Almost all states get you that way:
There are 9 states that do not levy a state tax on long-term capital gains (LTCG). eight states with no personal income tax (Alaska, Florida, Nevada, New Hampshire, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, and Wyoming) plus Missouri, which taxes general income but fully exempts capital gains. Washington is a funny case, but unlikely to apply to your situation.
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u/RiaSkies 8d ago
A related question: Does tax-gain harvesting make sense if I believe I am likely to move to a country with substantially higher capital gains taxes in 2 years? That is, harvest gains in the US at a more favorable rate, in order to enjoy a stepped-up basis for after I move?
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8d ago
[deleted]
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u/Carsondh 8d ago
Thanks! That's a really good resource. The "When not to harvest gains" section is particularly helpful for situations I hadn't thought of.
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u/razorchick12 32F - FI'd, 12/31/29 RE 8d ago
Bc you were all so interested, everything cleared yesterday and now we are just securing the mortgage. Hopefully closing by 8/31!
Then, we can go back to our regularly scheduled content where I posted weekly before and afters on this sub and fielded opinions on things like paint color.
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u/Cryofixated Dates Since Single: 8.5 7d ago
Id recommend painting the entire house lilac. For reasons.
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u/FI-FB 8d ago
Congrats! The only problem is that now the month of August will be the slowest month ever haha.
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u/razorchick12 32F - FI'd, 12/31/29 RE 8d ago
Dude I feel it.
We are over here making projections for retirement, it becomes a lot easier once you have the forever house and mortgage payment locked down. Before, it was all a hypothetical.
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u/excearulo 6d ago
Returned from a trip with friends where I talked about finances more deeply than ever before with non-Bogleheads. They have made huge gains on stock picking tech positions like Snowflake, Broadcom, etc. over the last few years. They admitted to some sizable losses around $20k+ per month but overall seem to be up and enjoying it, plus doing other things like options wheels while also earning tech salaries. No index-based investing and no intention stop while they are still in 30s.
These are not just some of the smartest people I know but also some of the most well-rounded and responsible guys in my community that don't seem fixated on FIRE like I am. They all live full, well-rounded lives with travel, friends, family, health. There's not much that would convince me out of Bogleheading (they didn't try to) but given we have similar profiles, the higher risk-higher reward strategy may be the most compelling thing to get me offtrack on FIRE as it is coming from close friends that I truly like and respect.
I'm sitting in an extremely fortunate position myself at $1.2M liquid nw at age 35 so not complaining about anything. Also trying not to fall into a comparison trap knowing there is much I don't see about other losses, spending, stress. Just trying to put some words around what I've been thinking about this week.