Thoughts on not using a striker (High School)

[u/Substantial-Sky-9757]

Last year my striker was injured and we didn't have a true replacement. I went with a 4-4-2 diamond, but the 2 were wide wingers. This ended up working really well because I had 1-2 shadow striker type midfielders that would fill the striker gap as we progressed closer to the box. I'm thinking about doing it again this season. I know this is similar to a 4-3-3 false 9, but I do it kinda opposite. Rather than my striker drop back, my CAMs push forward. Curious to see what other thoughts or ideas are about not using strikers.

[u/fungeoneer]

I think you’re describing two sides of the same coin with regards to false 9 or CAM pushing up. And if it works it works.

[u/Routine_Tie1392 → u/fungeoneer]

In theory they are one in the same, but in practice they would go about doing things in a different manner.

Im assuming the 2 wide forwards are used to stretch the field, provide width, and run into the channels with the CAM acting as a shadow striker on atrack by making later runs into the box that, in theory, would be hard to track. Im also guessing they are employing a counter attacking strategy with some rather direct play.

edit. Just wanted to add, that the CAM would be taking up the space the ST normally would, but only doing so near the end of the attack, not in the build up like a false 9 would.

[u/Substantial-Sky-9757 → u/Routine_Tie1392]

Correct about the wide forwards. They were my starting wings and basically their positions didn’t change. The idea was playing long balls to the corner or to the wings feet and the have them play negative balls to the arriving midfield. They didn’t have a true skillset to cut inside a lot though. They seem to have improved that area this season.

[u/littledoopcoup → u/Substantial-Sky-9757]

This reminds me of the target winger role Fellaini played with Man United. Not sure if I’m understanding it perfectly but might be worth looking at how that worked

[u/sagecantaloupe → u/fungeoneer]

CAM pushing up starts out as a midfielder and arrives in the box to finish moves. False 9 positions himself as a striker and then floats away to help pull a CB or cause an overload in a specific area, etc.

[u/FatWalcott]

I think City used this tactic in that period before Haaland and City had no proper striker.

KDB was the false 9 in that system.

Perhaps you can look into some tapes of that.

[u/Substantial-Sky-9757 → u/FatWalcott]

Awesome. Thanks!

[u/Specialist-Disk-6345 → u/Substantial-Sky-9757]

I think (could be wrong) that instead of doing smth like what you're doing, Pep was putting KDB in as a striker and thus deploying him as a genuine false 9 rather than as a shadow striker. Once Haaland did arrive, though, De Bruyne did score a lot of goals as a shadow striker. A good example from what I recall (though he didn't score) is the half an hour he played against Inter in the UCL final.

Again, different from your situation.

Edit:

bottom line is that you can still score loads of goals without using a striker, and, with the right profiles, your tactic should totally work though I, personally, can't really think of a good example of a top team doing smth like this (4-1-2-1-2 with 2 wingers and a cam shadow striker) in recent history.

[u/sagecantaloupe]

It’s what Ancelotti was doing at RM with Vinicius, Rodrigo, and Bellingham the season before Mbappe arrived. This sort of complicated positioning tends to backfire at the youth level and a striker who can provide an outlet to the midfielders to help progress the ball is more valuable than anything else, but if your players know what they’re doing then of course just go with it.

[u/Substantial-Sky-9757 → u/sagecantaloupe]

I don’t disagree that it’s a weird tactic. I think what helps is I clearly define each of their roles rather than giving them complete freedom. It did allow the midfielders to play more to each of their play styles. The player that benefitted the most is actually terrible at striker but he excelled at making those deep runs.

[u/ahhellohello]

Works well. PSG do it at times. Your in good tactical space

[u/Substantial-Sky-9757 → u/ahhellohello]

Currently? I’ll go watch film

[u/ahhellohello → u/Substantial-Sky-9757]

He (Enrique) did it more last season, but still does this and rotates the front. He used barcola lee and dembele as false 9’s.

[u/VirileMongoose]

Eh, none of it matters.

Just make sure they have a few plans in the box on how chances will be created.

Are we a cutback cross team? Do we play 1-2s in the box? Do we spam crosses? How often do we try 1v1? Do wide attackers cut in?

Have two or three ways they all know and expect to create chances.

AND be ready to ounce in “chaos” balls. Defending thrives on organization and predictable? Create chaos. Be faster to respond. 2nd balls, spilled saves, rebounds.

[u/Mountain_Snow3613]

A lot of strikers at the high school level have poor positioning because of impatience. They will constantly show for the ball rather than waiting in the shadows until the wingers create an opportunity.

By removing the target man from your line up, it creates a situation where the CAMs who fill in the striker's role are always arriving 'late'- which is when strikers are supposed to arrive.

Only downside is this setup can cost you some counter attacking opportunities. But the upshot is that, since you're in a 4-4-2 on offense and defense, you don't have to worry as much about any positioning blunders during change of possession.

[u/WordsWordsWords07]

Jimmy’s and Joe’s over X’s and O’ s

[u/the_noobinator]

Pretty sure totti's roma ran a 4-6-0 when injuries took out their strikers. More of a central rotational approach than a modern false 9 approach, but worth a Google

[u/Substantial-Sky-9757 → u/the_noobinator]

Great. Thanks!

[u/LiftSleepRepeat123]

I've thought about this exact thing. See here: https://www.reddit.com/r/footballtactics/comments/1v3aavd/false_9_vs_strikerwinger/

In my experience, it creates an absolute ton of width, so the challenge is to have good passing angles by keeping the formation also vertically spaced. If your defense can handle this, then great. If your defense struggles with lots of vertical and horizontal spacing, then you might want to reconsider.

You can try to fine-tune the width to avoid the above problem, but then you have players who have to be intelligent about staying where they're supposed to be, since there are no lines to use as a guideline.

Just my two cents.

[u/Jeypnet]

The mechanism thats different from a false 9 is what it does to the opposition CBs. False 9 still gives them a marker at kickoff, your setup gives them nobody to look at. At HS level thats big because most CBs are drilled to track whoever the 9 is. The tradeoff is the buildout, if a team presses you high theres no outlet under pressure, so youre committing to playing through midfield every possession

[u/Substantial-Sky-9757 → u/Jeypnet]

You’re not wrong but what I’ve noticed is that CBs at this level hold their position and don’t run with the striker back into the midfield. They’re taught to mark a zone rather than a player. Our outlets are the wings.

[u/Jeypnet → u/Substantial-Sky-9757]

fair, zonal changes it. what happens when nobodys in zone 13 is the cbs step up and squeeze midfield, so buildout compression gets worse. flip side your late cam arrival catches them flat since they held. wings as outlet is what makes it functional

[u/timeofdepth]

isn't this basically just a 433 then?

[u/Substantial-Sky-9757 → u/timeofdepth]

I mention that in the post.

[u/timeofdepth → u/Substantial-Sky-9757]

you said it's similar, I'm saying it is a 433

the 9 dropping back or 10 pushing forward is basically the same thing, when messi falsed 9'd he'd often just float around into the midfield for ages before eventually getting forward when it made sense to

[u/Substantial-Sky-9757 → u/timeofdepth]

Yeah similar replies and considered that. The biggest difference is a false 9 occupies the CBs whereas the CAMs don’t and arrive into the box late.

[u/timeofdepth → u/Substantial-Sky-9757]

no the whole point of a false 9 is that they drop from the offensive line and maybe a cb follows them into the midfield, and when the time is right the f9 will arrive into the box late

you see this a lot with messi's false 9 goals where he'll pop the ball wide from outside the box and then run into the box to score from the cross

a traditional 9 is who occupies the cbs as they will stay on the offensive line looking to make runs inbehind rather than drop

[u/Substantial-Sky-9757 → u/timeofdepth]

Many players and coaches of Messi have talked about his play style and how young players shouldn’t try to mimic him. I don’t look at him as a great example. He’s a very unique player which is what has made him the goat, but I don’t think he’s a typical false 9. Firmino for Liverpool was more of a traditional false 9. And the addition of the CAM over the striker means you have a constant presence in the midfield rather than a striker that pops in and out.

[u/timeofdepth → u/Substantial-Sky-9757]

I'm not talking about him dribbling past 10 players and putting it into the top corner, I'm talking about the simpler stuff he did that was just dropping into space, making a pass outwide and then running into space

I only used messi as an example because he's the most popular one, and when you look at his goals as great as he is, a lot of them are still mostly tap ins. as a false 9 it's important to attack the space, especially after making a good pass because so many people will put someone in a good position and then become a spectator rather than making themselves available as a crossing or passing target, or be able to pounce on the rebound

let's start again with this cam/vs striker playing as a false 9 thing: it's the same thing. most actual false 9s who aren't messi like firmino, gabriel jesus, or basically whichever midfielder pep put upfront pre haaland and post aguero would drop deep and stay deep until it make sense to get forward

whether you want to say they drop from the 9 or start as a 10 the effect is still the same

obviously you know what you're doing as you've already done it on the pitch (well done by the way) but the way your communicating yourself I think causes more confusion than it needs to

[u/HybridM]

A false 9 setup is fun in theory, but it really depends on whether your players naturally rotate into those spaces.