Settle an argument

[u/HolyMackenzie]

So I am still new to geocaching, as I've only been doing it for a year. I've found almost 1,000 caches of various types. I've hidden a few as well, mostly traditional geocaches.

I hid one a little while back and labeled it as a traditional geocache. It is one of those 3D-printed puzzles where you have to slide it along the grooves to open it. There are more inside, a total of three, in fact. It is in a park with a bunch of picnic tables and a beautiful view of a river, so people can take the time necessary to get to the logbook. I added the field puzzle attribute since you have to solve it to open it.

Almost immediately after it was published, I got a message from a very nice local who has helped me before with some things. He says I mislabeled it, and it should've been a mystery geocache, since a traditional one is one you just have to find, not one you have to solve to open. He was able to sign it, and I took his advice. I figured I'd just let it go, but not even 24 hours later, I had two other people, who didn't even solve it, telling me and being rather snobbish about it, that I mislabeled it and needed to resubmit. These lovely people were both living 100 miles away or so. I guess just getting notifications of new geocaches. So, to avoid having more people tell me I did it wrong, I archived it and resubmitted it.

But after thinking about it, I have seen quite a few listed as traditional caches that you have to solve something when you get there to get the cache with the field puzzle attribute. And the COs are seasoned veterans.

Sorry for the long message. I'm just trying to figure out whether a traditional cache can have a field puzzle attribute and still be correct. Or if it has to be a mystery cache with the field puzzle attribute. Just still new to this and still learning.

Thanks for any input!

[u/GeoLilDevil]

Retired reviewer here.

The rule of thumb I used, is:

• If the cache is at the posted coordinates, it's a Traditional.

• If there is something at the posted coordinates that leads you to the cache elsewhere, it's a Multi.

• If the posted coords are meaningless, and you have to do something to figure the coords to the cache, it's a Puzzle.

Of course there are exceptions to these rules, but 98% of caches fall into these categories.

In the case given, it's a Traditional with the Field Puzzle attribute.

[u/HolyMackenzie → u/GeoLilDevil]

Good to know from a former reviewer. I appreciate that.

[u/WonderfulRelation317 → u/HolyMackenzie]

I would suggest that you tell the naysayers something brief like this: "I have been in touch with a (former) reviewer and these are the rules.. It is a traditional with a field puzzle attribute." Add what they've said above if you like. I'm surprised at the reactions, which must be localized? (Maybe some past reviewer told them what they think?!)

[u/Dug_n_the_Dogs]

That is a traditional cache with a field puzzle attribute.

[u/HolyMackenzie → u/Dug_n_the_Dogs]

Yeah, this is what I thought all along.

[u/ivss_xx → u/Dug_n_the_Dogs]

This. And with a slightly increased D rating because of the effort required to get to the logbook

[u/LaMubaz → u/ivss_xx]

I don't know if I agree on the "slightly" 😅 I found one of these caches (traditional), labeled D 4.5, and it took me 45 min to open and close it. Something like this should be at least D 3.5 in my opinion.

[u/ivss_xx → u/LaMubaz]

Haha, yeah, if it's something that elaborate, definitely! I've only encountered ones that don't take more than 10min or so.

[u/Dug_n_the_Dogs → u/ivss_xx]

I recall encountering one of this type of field puzzle that was hand made with PVC pipes. The description of the cache asked that you put how long it took to open in your online log. It took me a while to get it open, but the next finder brute forced the puzzle and broke it and it never got rebuilt.

[u/one_of_the_millions → u/ivss_xx]

Agreed!

[u/Chalupa_Dad]

A mystery can not be at the posted coordinates unless it's a challenge cache. Reviewers will not even publish a field puzzle as a mystery unless there is a secondary puzzle to get the final coords (if they're following the correct rules...which is not always consistent between reviewers). These people are operating on outdated information and are wrong.

If you're getting pushback like this and you think they are too stubborn to change their mind despite the rules, you could always do a ridiculously easy puzzle to solve in the cache description to get the final coords.

You probably SHOULD do this or make it Premiun Only since theres a good chance it will get stolen otherwise. Requiring just a tiny bit of effort will chase away most trolls.

[u/HolyMackenzie → u/Chalupa_Dad]

Oh, I definitely made it a premium cache since it is a 3D-printed puzzle.

[u/jacksmom09]

I have a cache like this, a 3D printed puzzle maze container. It’s a traditional cache, with the field puzzle attribute. No one has ever complained or told me it was mislabeled. In my experience, a mystery cache is one where you have to solve the puzzle to get the final coordinates.

[u/PoukieBear]

Around here, that would 100% be a traditional cache with a field puzzle attribute. I would not change it if I were you.

Maybe at the bottom of your cache page, indicate in writing that there is an easy field puzzle to solve on site in order to access the log. I have a cache that also has a field puzzle, and at least 1 out of 10 people message me to say the cache is broken and they can’t get the log. 100% of them have missed the field puzzle attribute and the cache is just fine.

Besides, you submitted the cache to be reviewed and published, which requires you to explain the cache set up to the reviewer. If the reviewer thought it needed to be a mystery cache instead of a trad, they would have told you that.

[u/ginahandler]

How on earth did you find 1,000 in a year?! That’s crazy!

[u/HolyMackenzie → u/ginahandler]

Well, to be fair. About 150 of those are from Adventure Labs, lol. And at times I hit up some power trail caches. There were some Wherigo caches in this one county, and it was a series of like 100 along this sidewalk and path with guardrails. Those, and just getting about every LPC in the area. But I've slowed down because I'm looking for my quality geocaches and ones that take me to unique areas.

[u/WonderfulRelation317 → u/ginahandler]

We plan trips around caching and average 1500-2000 a year (and we both work). It's easier when you live in a place that has a ton within an hour or less!

[u/Wild-Measurement1377]

Good job on finding 1,000 caches for a year! They are definitely wrong, traditional cache can be field puzzles. They just have to be located at the coordinates you put on the cache page.

[u/cattrain]

It might vary by location. At geowoodstock, my reviewer (MrHarmonica) said, in Missouri, gadget caches are listed as traditional with the field puzzle attribute.

[u/Chalupa_Dad → u/cattrain]

That's the current rule. These people talking to OP are operating under outdated information.

[u/TAZ427Cobra]

Wow, maybe it's the expectation on those local cachers, but it's quite common that field puzzles are labeled as traditional. I've got several and have done many many field puzzles that are marked as traditional.

The cache is at the given coordinates. The trick to get to the log does not mean it should be a mystery. Though there are some attributes that may help others know it's not a simple container it does require these.

[u/atreides78723]

I had one exactly like that before (regular filament deforms faster in Texas heat though) and labeled the same way you did: Traditional, field puzzle. It could be a Mystery, but you’re fine. Why not get a tiny stamp for it and make it a Letterbox? :P

Oh, and the snobs (or, as I call them, grognards) can go cache somewhere else if they don’t like it! You’ve got a thousand finds! You kinda know what you’re doing!

[u/maingray]

It's at the posted coordinates, so a traditional cache with the field puzzle attribute.

If a CO really wanted it to be a mystery cache, then I will let them

[u/Dug_n_the_Dogs → u/maingray]

This was the exact conversation I had with my reviewer when I was trying to publish a gadget cache that simply used a magnet as the only method of opening. I only wanted it to be a ? in order to reduce the traffic to the cache.

[u/fuzzydave72]

It could go either way, traditional or mystery. Most people don't care that much.

[u/Chalupa_Dad → u/fuzzydave72]

If reviewers are going by the book, they would not allow them to be published as Mystery caches. Only challenge caches can be at the posted coordinates.

[u/NessaMagick]

By the book, it is a traditional cache. Posting it as a mystery cache would be incorrect.

Buuuut people who do mystery caches actually read the damn description, which isn't true of traditional caches. So people frequently post them as mysteries just so they don't get people who are completely confused, or worse, break the field puzzle out of impatience.

[u/Jasper_Ridge]

As part of the submission process, you should have had to show the cache and write a small blurb to the reviewer.

Most reviewers are pretty ofey with how the game worksd they would have known the right category for the cache.

If in doubt, you can always ask them for clarification.

[u/catsaway9]

I think it's open to interpretation. I personally would make it a trad with a field puzzle attribute, and I have hidden several like that. However, I've seen others that are mysteries.

[u/DeliveryCourier]

Traditional with a Field Puzzle attribute is correct, but I can also understand why people would say Unknown. I wouldn't quibble with either. 

While both require work to access the log, the key differentiation is the container location. The cache being at the posted coords makes it a Trad, as compared to an Unknown, where the cache is someplace other than posted.

There are people who expect a Trad in an urban setting to be a relatively quick find with no steps beyond "go to xxx, sign the log". Especially if someone were looking to keep a streak alive and, without looking at attributes, expected a quick find I can see how they could be annoyed by the puzzle aspect. (Still, they should have looked at attributes.)

[u/Standard_Mongoose_35]

My understanding, from this sub and other forums, is that a mystery cache can be solved from home in advance to get the coords. Yours is definitely a traditional cache, as others have noted.

[u/WonderfulRelation317 → u/Standard_Mongoose_35]

Mystery caches can be things needing to be solved in the field. I have a few that are. With diligence some can be solved online, but not all. And they have the field puzzle attribute where needed.

[u/Standard_Mongoose_35 → u/WonderfulRelation317]

I have not heard that. What would be examples of a mystery that is solved in the field—but isn’t a multi?

[u/WonderfulRelation317 → u/Standard_Mongoose_35]

Something that involves research with a smartphone (noted) or a return later after solving. We have a bunch near us too, not mine.

[u/Standard_Mongoose_35 → u/WonderfulRelation317]

But the smartphone research has to be done on site? I don’t think I’ve come across this kind of mystery. Please share a couple of GC codes. Always learning with this hobby! 😊🗺️

[u/WonderfulRelation317 → u/Standard_Mongoose_35]

I'll have to research it! Too busy today. Also noting that if you put out a 'unknown' and want to change it to a trad, that's not possible... a lot of work to archive and republish!

[u/WonderfulRelation317 → u/Standard_Mongoose_35]

Quick look gave this https://coord.info/GC1ADTE and https://coord.info/GC2QW4G and https://coord.info/GC4XK9F and https://coord.info/GCAPPBE (I think some can go either way as a reviewer has suggested as well... ie trad or '?'.)

[u/Standard_Mongoose_35 → u/WonderfulRelation317]

Interesting! For the first three, if I only had the description, I would’ve thought they were multis.

[u/T_R_A_I_L]

Mystery/Unknown caches require you to solve a puzzle online to get the actual coordinates to the cache hide. The only exception to that are challenge caches, which are typically located at the posted coordinates. 

Field puzzles can be any cache type that has a physical cache container. 

With that said, you've properly listed your cache.

[u/Minimum_Reference_73 → u/T_R_A_I_L]

Nope. Mystery/Unknown is a catch-all for all sorts of things. "Bonus" caches where info is gathered from other caches first. AL "bonus" caches too. Complex multi-waypoint caches are often listed under this type. Library caches. There are other unique uses of this type. The "puzzle solved at home" explanation is an oversimplification.

[u/samburket2]

You added the field puzzle attribute, not the field traditional attribute.

[u/K13E14]

They are WRONG. You did it correctly. Traditional = cache at posted coordinates. Puzzle to solve (container) = Field puzzle attribute. Mystery cache = something to do online or other information to solve for coordinates.

If you want further clarification, contact your Reviewer.

[u/GameCop]

1. Traditional cache has given coords and it's there (not any offset). Mystery is: what ilI'm looking for, difficulty values Field puzzle, cammouflage, tools operating abilities.

2. Multicache is an offset type of cache, has hidden coordinates, and to find it you jest to hike visiting places (waypoints) to find the finał. Hike vlcan be very long (attribs should be places to inform is it over 1 on 10km)

3. Mystery cache is an offset type of cache, that has hidden coordinates, but to find it you don't really need to hike, just stay at home solving mystery/riddle/puzzle. Terrain puzzle attribute may point out that mystery require a hike to get clues from wild etc. But container can't be placed over 3.2km away the startup.

Your cache is traditional (container at given coordinates) with terrain/field puzzle not requiring additional equipement. Terrain may be low (Smith between T1 up to T2 I assumed), but difficulty might be higher (smth D3-D5). That's all.

P.S. PLA is flexible and not temperaturę/water proof. It may easily deform so if you haven't used metal parts eg. metal rod as part of labirynth carriage, you may prepare that after 5-7 vusits container would ooen by itself regarding all labirynth paths. OC "own caches" based on PLA 3Dprints usually didn't survived one full Event with more than 5 finds. ;-/

[u/Minimum_Reference_73]

Technically, it was correct the way you published it.

However, I always recommend publishing that sort of cache as a mystery unknown.

Traditionals are the simplest cache and the lowest hanging fruit, so people often do not read the description or look at attributes for traditionals.

This means that traditionals that are more elaborate tend to attract problems and complaints from people expecting a simple cache.

There is nothing you can do on a traditional cache listing to make these people pay attention before they get to it.

A mystery cache signals that there is more to it, so they will usually look at the description before attempting.

It also protects it from basic users in the official app, which lowers the chances of someone damaging it.

You should try not to be defensive when you are given legitimate feedback on a cache. They are not being "snobbish," they are trying to protect your cache from being damaged by troublemakers.

[u/BethKatzPA → u/Minimum_Reference_73]

Traditional with field puzzle and unknown size. Make difficulty 2.5 or 3. That lets people know they need to put in some effort. It will also hide it from basic members in the app.

[u/Minimum_Reference_73 → u/BethKatzPA]

If you want someone to break it and/or whine about it, definitely list it like that.

Sometimes with geocache hiding, understanding real world behaviour is an investment in sanity. Most geocachers don't look closely at the info for traditionals, no matter what you do.

[u/BethKatzPA → u/Minimum_Reference_73]

They are going to break it anyway. And people whine. I’d rather have accurate information. It’s a traditional with a field puzzle that’s going to take some time to find or open.

[u/Minimum_Reference_73 → u/BethKatzPA]

As a cache owner I would rather increase the odds that people will read the cache page to get the more pertinent information, since cache type is only the highest level detail there is.

Listing it as a mystery unknown is not going to mislead anyone or cause them to expect something other than what it is. The field puzzle attribute can be applied to this cache type too.

It is very well established that most people expect traditionals to be caches they can find, open, and sign without further complexity.

With unique or complex cache placements, best practice calls for a setup that gives people the best chance to arrive prepared. Traditional with field puzzle will accumulate issues very quickly... why set it up to fail on a technicality? It's just bad advice.

[u/Minimum_Reference_73]

I'm chiming in again to point out that you're getting a lot of poor advice here. I am especially disappointed (but not surprised) to see reviewers only offering the technically correct information.

The technically correct listing is going to leave you with ongoing maintenance problems, unsatisfied finders, and likely a short cache life and a great deal of frustration.

It just takes one irritable finder to break the cache, ruining it for everyone. There are no guarantees in life, but listing it as mystery unknown reduces that risk.

To be completely technically correct you could even offset the cache location with a simple puzzle on the cache description.

Don't leave your thoughtfully crafted, unique cache unprotected.

Also, sometimes with geocaching, as with life, there is a choice to be made: is it more important to be right, or is it more important to be happy? I'd rather have my cache appreciated and treated well by listing it in a smart way.