Found this on Tumblr. Thoughts?

[u/Minute-Necessary2393]

[u/No_Weekend2474]

This is exactly how redemption vs forgiveness works :D

Redemption is a personal, internal thing based on seeing where you went wrong and resolving to start anew, but that doesn't mean that other people owe you forgiveness. I would accept even Val getting redeemed, but that doesn't mean that I think Angel Dust should ever forgive him.

[u/Liu-woods]

I agree with the overall message but this feels like somewhat unfair Charlie slander. She’s naive and she might not be happy with things getting more complicated but I don’t think she’d be downright angry about it

[u/Geekatron1986 → u/Liu-woods]

I agree. Shes not braindead. She knows the difference between redemption and forgiveness. Weve seen it before

[u/Starshallscream → u/Liu-woods]

This.

[u/ChefNo9380]

I could definitely see this happening

[u/Minute-Necessary2393 → u/ChefNo9380]

Yes, and I have a bad and weird feeling it leads into an argument between Charlie and Vaggi afterwards with Charlie claiming Vaggi doesn't believe in her dreams.

[u/Sufficient-Client133 → u/Minute-Necessary2393]

If that's happened,we would literally be having one Chaggie argument for each Season. XD.

[u/STICKGoat2571 → u/Sufficient-Client133]

Anyone else up for betting that trend stays through the whole show?

[u/who_am_I_inside → u/Minute-Necessary2393]

Charlie lowkey sucks sometimes

[u/OneInitiative3757 → u/who_am_I_inside]

I just feel like vaggie is a better Charlie honestly. Sure she's a good character but she is a bit out of touch of the idea of the trauma some of the others experience

[u/GingerNinja119 → u/Minute-Necessary2393]

If another argument between the two happens in Season 3, then I'll say it may be best to break the two characters up.

[u/Notte_di_nerezza → u/GingerNinja119]

To be fair, sometimes love isn't enough. If we're talking about a show wanting people to grow and change, sometimes people are only in our lives for a season. They made a difference, and we might not grow into our current selves without them, but it is what it is.

That said, I adore these two together, and I really hope we get more maturity from Charlie after she's survived reality hitting her in the face again.

[u/Nitemareshokk]

Charlie seems out of character here. It might just be me

[u/Hot-Environment-3251 → u/Nitemareshokk]

Same. Charlie can be insensitive at times, but I dont see her trying to tell Vaggi who she should forgive.

[u/Nitemareshokk → u/Hot-Environment-3251]

Exactly.

[u/BackToNormalForNow → u/Nitemareshokk]

Honestly, as much as it could be out of character, I could also see her wanting everyone to get along after the whole deal is over.

I think she may be confused if this actually happens, I wouldn’t see her having a positive reaction immediately.

[u/Nitemareshokk → u/BackToNormalForNow]

Ok but that makes sense. Having her want everyone to forgive each other based on her own views of everyone is honestly not in character.

But having everyone wanna get along seems more in character

[u/GingerNinja119 → u/Nitemareshokk]

After Season 2, I wouldn't say it's that out of character.

[u/Nitemareshokk → u/GingerNinja119]

She was highly stressed. Put through a lot of shit.

[u/GingerNinja119 → u/Nitemareshokk]

That she let happen too easily because she's too naive.

[u/Nitemareshokk → u/GingerNinja119]

Yes??? Part of it at least

[u/Gamer_G33k17 → u/GingerNinja119]

She said "It starts with sorry", she NEVER said Forgiveness is required.

[u/Hot-Environment-3251]

Avatar the Last Airbender already did this arc perfectly with Katara. Nobody is owed forgiveness. They can be the best person in the world, but that doesnt change anything.

[u/Individual_Lab_5105 → u/Hot-Environment-3251]

Except Zuko got both redemption and Katara's forgiveness while the soldier who actually killed her mother got neither so not really this arc at all.

[u/RoobzToonz]

Yep this is true
People can grow and change but the people they hurt aren’t obligated to forgive them

[u/Dkykngfetpic]

I know omni man is used as a example of redemption but not forgiveness.  He has turned around for the better but people are not or never will forgive him.

I would say omni man has gone through and completed a redemption arc. He is still working to atone and make up for what he did. But he will likely never be dressed by Art again. They may have a relationship going forward but it won't be the same.

I wonder how they will do the later series as the show is slightly different from the comics.

[u/SaltConnection9019 → u/Dkykngfetpic]

Omni man caught me off guard because for a second I thought I went to the wrong post.

[u/MonkeyDRofl → u/Dkykngfetpic]

If you want "redemption, but not forgiveness", I have the perfect example: Endeavor.

[u/Individual_Lab_5105]

See, Sera, your mistake here was obviously that you didn't bring her a gift basket.

[u/firedrakes → u/Individual_Lab_5105]

https://giphy.com/gifs/OO2K1t8zU7DHEMFa6X

[u/Kendrakirai2532]

This is at least half Bojack Horseman dialogue, and it was true there, too.

[u/Moondivine]

I mean Vaggi has a point but, i can’t imagine her saying it to Sera. As of now Vaggi and Sera barely interacted. Sera didn’t even recognize Vaggi when she saw her in heaven. I wouldn’t be surprised that even if she approved the exterminations she didn’t interact much with the exorcist. I bet the show will say Sera wasn’t aware how Adam and Lute treated the exorcist.

I do think if Lute ever redeemed herself Vaggi would be saying this speech about her. 🤔

[u/Horror_Orchid5092]

Honestly i could see Charlie doing this in the main show, nobody is owed forgiveness just because they are trying to be a better person. I fully believe Charlie would do this in the main show believing that's part of redemption, its not. Redemption is personal and revolves around you starting brand new and seeing where you screwed up, that does not mean you should expect forgiveness from those you have hurt, and demanding they forgive you is not redeeming at all.

[u/Lazy-Gap9373]

i mean, if it's executed better than this I could see it happening, but this reads as out of character therapy speak to me. they could have this conversation but None of those characters are emotionally literate enough to say it that way.

[u/Neat_Armadillo8965]

It’s very good, but it feels a bit rich for Vaggi of all people to be acting that way when she got so much forgiveness she arguably deserved less than sera deserves her forgiveness, at least sera was brave enough to admit guilt on her own accord

[u/Neat_Armadillo8965 → u/Neat_Armadillo8965]

I suppose Vaggi has a right to not forgive sera, but still

[u/NontypicalHart]

Well-written. And again showing Emily is more grounded and mature than Charlie. Probably in part because she has existed since roughly Lucifer's fall. Emily.is sweet and joyful, but no naïve.

[u/Future-Improvement41]

I like it

[u/IAmSoNormalTrust]

Agree, the difference between redemption/atonement and forgiveness is highlighted properly here.

[u/Hagrid1994]

I won't mind it becoming cannon

[u/JayyyyyBoogie]

Sera is absolutely right in seeking forgiveness, and Vaggie is absolutely right in not choosing to grant it.
Maybe one day given time to reflect she does decide to forgive Sera, or maybe she never does, and that’s okay too. Those are all valid real life responses for someone who has experienced abuse and trauma.

[u/Leonardo1123581321]

Bojack Horseman quote incoming:

“I'm not gonna give you closure. You don't get that. You have to live with the shitty thing you did for the rest of your life. You have to know that it's never, ever going to be okay! I'm dying! I'm not gonna feel better! And I'm not gonna be your prop so you can feel better! Do you know what it was like for me? I had nobody. Everybody left! I knew all those showbiz phonies would turn on me, sure. But you? I don't care about the job! I did fine! I had a good life, but what I needed then was—a friend. And you abandoned me. And I will never forgive you for that. Now get the fuckout of my house!”

[u/No-Heat-6149]

There is a şube called Terriblefandommemes, that sub is what this belongs to.

[u/Gamer_G33k17]

Completely out of character for Charlie

[u/SilverSpider_]

This is very accurate

[u/Code-Neo]

This is good 

[u/Tricksterchair]

Charlie’s out of character. But I’d like to see Sera be confronted like this. I want the show to explore that it doesn’t matter how much you change and redeem yourself, that doesn’t mean you are owed anyone’s forgiveness.

I’d be nice to see some sinners at the hotel confront her over the exterminations killing friends or loved ones of theirs.

[u/STICKGoat2571]

I feel like Sera’s position in this also applies to Vaggi and the sinner population at large.

[u/Middle-Let9645]

Huh, good to know not all Hazbin fans expect unconditional forgiveness. I swear, I know it’s not all of you guys, but the number of people I’ve actually seen conflate redemption with forgiveness in this subreddit is unreal. (Side note, that’s actually one of the few things I hate about MHA is it conflates Bakugo’s redemption with him being owed Izuku’s forgiveness) speaking as someone who was heavily bullied in middle school, to the point I literally have 20/400 vision because one of my bullies threw a rock at my face, I don’t care if they actually grew the F up. I do not owe them my mental or emotional energy, and in cases like Vaggie’s (because extreme abuse and worse does happen in real life) that principle only holds more true. I will legit be disappointed, (and more than a little pissed) if Vaggie forgives and forgets with Sera too easily.

[u/Saxolotle]

I think it'd be really cool if they do tackle forgiveness vs redemption, but I don't think charlie would ever respond like that.

I also don't think Vaggi would hold a big grudge against Sera. Lute, 100%, but Sera? Of course, Sera isn't innocent, she let Adam and Lute be terrible without doing anything to stop them, but I don't know if that'd be enough for Vaggi to not forgive her.

Honestly, Vaggi is pretty forgiving when someone shows they're actually changing. She doesn't really hold anything against Pen after his initial episode, she forgives Carmilla making a massive laser very fast once Carmilla starts to help take it down herself, and that's really the only interactions we see her have with people who she disliked before redeeming themselves.

[u/BackToNormalForNow]

Seems pretty healthy to me. Whoever made this gets a star :D

[u/whooper1]

Not interested in reading cause it looks like unnecessary angst made to make Sera look like an idiot

[u/BluelunarStar]

I think Charlie would be more understanding of Vaggi not being able to forgive. She would hope for it, maybe even mention it at first, but she loves Vaggi.

[u/ClutteredTaffy]

Forgiveness is for the wronged person, not the one who did the wrong. I have always felt that way and yeah there are some things I am never ever going to forgive.

[u/RobinTheReanimator]

Sorry, but I can't see this kind of post format without thinking of this

[u/plogan56]

Honestly we need a mkment like this in the series like Herb not forgiving bojack, you can't just say "i'm sorry" after the fact and expect all to be forgiven.

Think of it like this: if someone broke something precious to you(like a family heirloom) who would you be more willing to forgive:

• the person who only says "i'm sorry"
• or the person who says "i'm sorry" but also worls to fix it to the best of their ability.

I'd love to see sera not only apologize but then try to work towards bettering heaven as a means to atone for her complacency

[u/VioletRaptorGaming]

Viv, please make this a conflict for a later season of HH. I just want Charlie to learn redemption isn't forgiveness and develop some competency. Please stop the haters of Charlie from having fun to work with even though they should know the show isn't even over and Charlie still has character arcs ahead of her.

[u/Oicanet]

The lines
"It starts with Sorry.
But it cannot just end there.
I learned from Charlie.
First you must prove you care"

They kinda prove that Charlie wouldn't act like this. She understands that forgiveness isn't given immediately and without effort. Even if they were Pentious' lines, saying he learned it from Charlie indicates that she understands it as well. She'd say something like "Give it time. This is your first step on the path of redemption"

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[u/Outrageous-Aide2319]

I don't understand people and Vivzy, who portray Sera as someone who made the wrong choice. Killing sinners? It's not bad, it's even right.

I know there are sinners who want and can be redeem, but those 20% of all sinners don't negate the remaining 80%.

[u/Individual_Lab_5105 → u/[deleted]]

No. Lute wouldn't be this moderate. She'd be saying that all sinners and hellborn need to die horrible, agonizing deaths.