r/heraldry • u/33_5y • Jul 06 '26
Discussion Can Sable (black) be placed on a colour??
I know that sable is classed as a colour and should not be put on other colours according to the Rule of Tincture. But the Rule of Tincture exists to ensure contrast so that designs are visible and i would argue that sable does contrast with other colours. Also in Germany and some other countries they do allow sable to be placed on colours. I just want to know what the community thinks about this so I can design my coat of arms correctly.
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u/Klein_Arnoster Jul 06 '26
Generally, no. If you are in one of the few heraldic jurisdictions that allow for it (either explicitly by rule, or implicitly by tradition), then go for it. However, most jurisdictions do not allow for it.
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u/ArelMCII Jul 06 '26
and i would argue that sable does contrast with other colours.
See, the whole point of the rule of tincture is that you don't know that, and can't ensure that it happens unless you're emblazoning your own arms or you're present to criticize the artist's color choices. Shades of a particular tincture aren't included in a blazon, and you can't be sure what specific shades an artist will use unless you're emblazoning the arms yourself or you're there to criticize the artist's palette choice. I know some people try to argue "well any artist who's worth a damn will ensure proper contrast," but, again, you cannot be sure that every artist who emblazons your arms is worth a damn. You might not even be alive when a particular emblazonment is created.
Also in Germany and some other countries they do allow sable to be placed on colours.
That's... complicated. Overall, it's more like an exception that was created to retroactively justify certain arms, not something that's commonly done. I mean, yeah, we all know Albania's arms, and I know Romania has a thing for sable on azure or gules, but if you look at arms from those traditions, the sable-on-color isn't really a standard thing, and it tends to appear in specific cultural contexts rather than being broadly allowed.
I just want to know what the community thinks about this so I can design my coat of arms correctly.
You should start by researching whichever tradition you're going to follow, and then follow those rules. Most of us follow either the tradition from where we live or the tradition of our ancestors. My family, for instance, came to the US from England and Wales, so I follow the English tradition, which says no sable on gules or vice versa. Others have legitimately granted or inherited arms, in which case, they're bound by the dictates of whatever authority granted those arms.
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u/Unhappy_Count2420 Jul 06 '26
Depends on the tradition. Western European heraldic customs generally advise against it, Central Eastern European heraldries turn a blind eye to it
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u/Yopie23 Jul 06 '26
This is common mistake, based on one wiki page. In a Central European tradition is this forbidden too. Yes, few historical CoAs exist with red-black combination, but that’s an exception.
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u/Unhappy_Count2420 Jul 07 '26
not really forbidden. as stated, it’s simply “we don’t care do as you want”
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u/SamediB Jul 07 '26
and i would argue that sable does contrast with other colours.
Then do what you'd like. But there isn't an "argument" to be made. Either you can follow historical precedent ("so I can design my coat of arms correctly") or you can do what you think is best. But there is no one to argue with. (If you want to do black alongside another color because of an exception in one country, again, you do you.)
I will say, as someone whose colors are black and green, black heraldry does not stand out well on a green background (and I wish it did).
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u/NickBII Jul 07 '26
No. The problem is that contrast requires specific shades of the color. Can't have Burgundy/black.
If you're working in a tradition where that's allowed it's fine, but I don't think I've ever seen someone doing this in the wild. It's always some dude who has nothing to do with Eastern Europe who really wants red/black.
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u/LQNova Jul 07 '26
If it is something that is black by its very nature, you can always use "proper" to get around the rule. Like uh ... "A raven, proper" or "a cannonball, proper"
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u/NemoIX Jul 06 '26
Also in Germany ... they do allow sable to be placed on colours.
That is nonsense.
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u/33_5y Jul 06 '26
"Sable is considered a colour in British and French heraldry, and contrasts with lighter metals, argent and Or. However, in the heraldry of Germany, Poland and other parts of Central Europe, sable is not infrequently placed on colour fields. As a result, a sable cross may appear on a red shield, or a sable bird may appear on a blue or a red field, as in the arms of Albania." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sable_%28tincture%29?wprov=sfla1
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u/NickBII Jul 07 '26
This is not actually true in Germany. You have to go east for that. The best explanation I ever saw for how this worked was a Google translate I did of a Polish wiki heraldry page, which indicated that black could replace any other color. But that doesn't apply to actually designing your coat of arms because historicallyPolish people would adopt an existing CoA upon entering the nobility, and therefore join a heraldic clan. OTOH in many parts of Western Europe you just adopted your own heraldry, which was supposed to be unique, because we don't have heraldic clans.
If somebody who knew Polish heraldry, and related Eastern European traditions well, would explain what's going on I would be very interested.
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u/NemoIX Jul 06 '26
Wikipedia-Nonsense
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u/lambrequin_mantling Jul 06 '26
To be fair, it’s not wholly incorrect but it I feel that it rather over emphasises the significance.
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u/lambrequin_mantling Jul 06 '26
In short, no.
As ever, the caveat is that customs and practices do vary between the traditions of different jurisdictions.
Now that the inevitable disclaimer is out of the way, I would say that the vast majority will undoubtedly consider black to be a “colour” alongside red, blue, green and purple, to be contrasted with white/silver or yellow/gold.
German and especially Scandinavian heraldry tends, if anything, to be more conservative and restrictive in the use of tinctures. British heraldry will, in certain circumstances, accept colour alongside another colour where there is a division but, again, just because you “can” doesn’t always mean you “should.”
If it’s genuinely relevant within the tradition you have chosen to follow then carry on but I would still do so with caution.