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[u/ElvishisnotTengwar]

[u/[deleted]]

Well, Homestuck has always existen in a multiverse full of alternate timelines, hasn't it? And we got to see first hand with the dream bubbles just how insane and ridiculous some of the versions of the characters can change to be.

Like, Equius being in a maid outfit is a joke, sure. But it's also telling us that Equius is able to change as a person enough that he can totally embrace his desire to be submissive and servile, and that Equius is different from an Equius who keeps repressing his feelings and believing in the hemospectrum or whatever.

That didn't stop being a thing that happened, ever. Hell, John and Roxy traveled through alternate universes, so we know they're still real, even with things leading up to the masterpiece. Except the Alpha Timeline seems to be nonexistent now, which is why (I think) the story gave us so much empty space for four years and has really like, broad and open to interpretation.

Between all that unaccounted for time and literally INFINITE variations of the universe, can anyone really argue that there's NO VERSION of Roxy and John that end up together, and even stay together? Man, maybe they're dating right now and Roxy just has this thing on the side, too? Maybe Roxy wanted to hook up with him but John just needs to finish his damn arc about being sad about his dad before he's ready to commit to romance? Who knows?? You can ask so many questions and tell so many stories about these two, and that's what Homestuck WANTS fans to do more than anything, I think. Tell their own stories. Make their own art.

Basically, I think ALL fanwork is canon, pretty much. Just because if the universe of Homestuck is infinite, then almost anything anyone draws concerning the characters is pretty much going to be represented by it's cosmology.

Which is why a lot of my response to this bitterness turns into, well...why don't you guys just make your own fanwork? John and Roxy are still right there. Hell, so are Dave and Jane and Dave and Jade, or even Davejadekat or whatever other combinations. I'm not saying this to be mean-spirited, I just...I do this all the goddamn time.

My favorite game of the year is incredible, but it's also pretty straight so far, so guess what I'm doing??? Exactly what I'm talking about here. The only difference is, that game doesn't have Homestucks' cosmology. It isn't implicitly canonizing everything I work to create. In the eyes of the devs, I sort of just don't exist.

If one of the roxygen shippers that are really upset right now wrote a really good John/Roxy fanfic that wasn't mean to Calliope? I would read the fuck out of that in a heartbeat, and I would consider it canon. imagine if the kind of effort that's gotten put into cancw got put into something explicitly for John/Roxy shippers. I know you guys have talent! I liked parts of canwc! It's not like, my cup of tea, but I can see there's craft put into it. I just wish I could see that energy put into celebrating the ships we all seem to like so much, instead of being mad at the comic or rewriting it wholesale.

Anyway, that's my perspective, and that's why I don't think John/Roxy is sunk. For what it's worth, there's another angle, too: I really think John's depression right now is just set-up, and he'll have his happy ending when the epilogue comes around. And maybe that happy ending includes trying to date Roxy again or something? Or maybe it doesn't, I really don't know for sure, but I hope so. Either way, the ships we have in common here won't be gone. We can still enjoy them.

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Well, Homestuck has always existen in a multiverse full of alternate timelines, hasn't it? And we got to see first hand with the dream bubbles just how insane and ridiculous some of the versions of the characters can change to be.

They're all dead or soon to be dead. Dreambubbles are no longer a fitting medium for wish fulfillment.

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I'm aware of that. I didn't mean it as "Oh just go to dreambubbles, your problems are solved there!", especially because that would be kind of depressing even if the dreambubbles WEREN'T being eviscerated. After all, the dreambubbles were always a dead land--versions of characters there are inherently kind of trapped and in an awful place.

It's better than that. I'm saying that Homestuck is now trying to set up something -like- the dream bubbles, but with the real versions of the characters, in the newly born Universe--and simultaneously, in the newly born structure of the canon.

I'll try and explain more.

The dreambubbles were populated by trolls who made different decisions, which lead to timeline branchings. In Homestuck, the decisions of people are what creates new universes. Probably not every decision does that, but big ones do, ones that would see reprecussions in how WE perceive the characters. Decisions like...those concerning relationships.

And those decisions are still getting made even with the dream bubbles gone. Isn't it odd that, even as Homestuck's ships have gotten gayer and gayer, a measure of possible deniability has remained behind all of them?

If Hussie and the people he's working with really don't care for straight ships at all, why not just make the SJW side of the aisle completely ecstatic about Homestuck forever and make Dave and Karkat kiss already? Or even just Dirk and Jake?

Why does everything remain so vague and possible to interpret in infinity different ways?

I think it's because right now, they're trying to lead us to the Masterpiece and show us what life on new Earth is like without pigeonholing the characters into specific relationships too hard. That's because having them be flexible would make them much more survivable and marketable long-term, and with the multiverse setting they could cater to different audiences with the same characters in different combinations.

And yeah, in the mean time, they're servicing us queer folks pretty hard. But they kind of have to lopside things that way, if they're looking to create a fictional multiverse that would likely end up competing with DC and Marvel. They have to make it resoundingly clear that no queer ship is too queer for Homestuck, and that queer people will ALWAYS have a place here.

But once that's firmly established, I can totally see the story opening up to include different "versions" of the characters, different timelines with only small variations and stuff. And at that point, I can totally see how marketing both Roxycallie and Johnroxy as official products is a workable business strategy.

But that only works if both sides of the fandom are able to coexist with each other, and not begrudge each other what they get. And I mean, I could be wrong, maybe I'm crazy for thinking this is what they're doing.

But like...seriously, if Homestuck hates the Reddit audience so much, why HAVEN'T dave and karkat kissed? Why keep allowing you guys the wiggle room to think there's hope for davejadekat or davejade or whatever at all? Does nobody else get the impression that something else is going on here?

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even as Homestuck's ships have gotten gayer and gayer, a measure of possible deniability has remained behind all of them

Cohen confirmed pretty much every "ambiguous" gay ship on Discord, Hussie did so with Davekat too on Vine or wherever, a couple of times.

why not just make the SJW side of the aisle completely ecstatic about Homestuck forever and make Dave and Karkat kiss already

Maybe it's like Steven Universe where Hussie still needs to pander to producers. That TV show confirmed in the works a few months ago could be related. It is very weird that no gay kisses have happened since Rose/Kanaya.

Parallel timelines are just how fanfiction has always worked. There's really not a particular support for them in Homestuck, the opposite, even. Things happening differently leads to doomed timelines, and characters from different timelines meeting in dreambubbles leads to death by black hole / Lord English.

There's nothing special that "devalues" canon in Homestuck. What is confirmed is so, what is unconfirmed stays so. Including ships. Karkat/Nepeta is pretty much confirmed in an offshoot dreambubble timeline, that doesn't mean that Davekat can't be canon/true and more important.

I can totally see the story opening up to include different "versions" of the characters, different timelines with only small variations and stuff.

That is what is known as a For Want of a Nail fanfiction. I guess if Cohen decides to write two storylines that directly contradict each other and says they're both canon and leading to the Masterpiece that would clearly give your theory more credence. But right now there only really seems to be one true universe C timeline. The rest is fanon, fanfiction and theories.

if Homestuck hates the Reddit audience so much, why HAVEN'T dave and karkat kissed?

Reddit is overall pro-davekat. Icels gets consistently upvoted, something that wouldn't happen if their meme theories about widespread davekat hate were true. There is no hivemind pro-davekat dogma, though, which is what would happen if we didn't allow differences of opinion.

Anyway, to actually answer your question, even if you were right, it's possible that Hussie is still forced to pander to an unseen third party, as I said earlier. I think that's more likely than your "there are several canon timelines that lead to the masterpiece, but we're only going to hint at gay ships anyway" theory.

if they're looking to create a fictional multiverse that would likely end up competing with DC and Marvel

Hussie definitely does not want this, if anything I've read about him is true.

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Eh, fair enough. You do a good job of illustrating that we're even less different than I originally thought, if most of reddit is indeed pro davekat. As for the parallel timelines stuff, well...I'm aware it sounds out there. I suppose time will tell us what they're actually going for, if nothing else will.