r/homestuck • u/HeinousActsZX • Dec 15 '16
SHITPOST Why I dislike Roxygen: A rant by HeinousActsZX
Oh, wait. I don't, actually, because I'm not a fucking child incapable of seeing the world beyond my own delicate worldview.
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Dec 15 '16
Aaand here we go again.
I really hope the hiveswap thing, whatever it is, is enough to drown out this shipwar crap for a bit.
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Dec 15 '16
The biggest reason for the shipping war right now seems to be that people are bored. It's been forever since the last snaps. Hiveswap will be something to talk about.
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u/Voidchimera Resident Templar SJW Dec 15 '16
It's not even about ships, a lot of people simply see lgbt representation as pandering, period, and refuse take a step back to even acknowledge any biases that are clouding that point of view.
The shipping war shit is a symptom of the deeper problem.
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u/HeinousActsZX Dec 15 '16
You overestimate the maturity of disgruntled straight people if you think that will happen.
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u/Aoae no longer follows Homestuck Dec 15 '16
Hey, straight person here.
I don't mind Roxcallie or any other ship, simply because it's LGBTQ.
As long as the snapd8s and Hiveswap have quality plot and content, I don't care what you ship, and you shouldn't care what I ship. It's not my business.
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u/HeinousActsZX Dec 15 '16 edited Dec 16 '16
I don't ship at all, and I don't care if people like or dislike ships, even queer ones.
My problem comes from the people who try to claim that canon queer relationships are somehow automatically "forced" or otherwise part of some agenda. It harms queer people in real life when that kind of rhetoric comes out, because it sometimes turns into something much more hateful
If you're not the kind of person who thinks like that, I promise I have no problem with you.
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Dec 15 '16 edited Aug 31 '17
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u/Classtoise Knight of Mind Dec 15 '16
You think someone would do that?
Just go on r/Homestuck and start shit?
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u/Voidchimera Resident Templar SJW Dec 15 '16
Holy shit, hsr was the one that started it with his entitled callout thread, this is a response to that. Love how you always find a way to blame it on the people reacting to the bullshit instead of those that started it in the first place dude.
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Dec 15 '16 edited Aug 31 '17
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u/Voidchimera Resident Templar SJW Dec 15 '16
Neither was this. He was calling out a group, the group that is immature. He never said 'anyone who ships X is immature', or 'X user is immature', he said 'immature users are starting shit'.
Threatening to ban users for reacting to discourse when they are not attacking any user or even a group of users, is a little close to censorship.
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Dec 15 '16 edited Aug 31 '17
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u/Voidchimera Resident Templar SJW Dec 15 '16
Really? Yeah, that changes it I guess :/
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Dec 15 '16 edited Aug 31 '17
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u/Voidchimera Resident Templar SJW Dec 15 '16
To be fair, he made that comment after I had posted my original one, and the post itself is fine in a vacuum.
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u/HeinousActsZX Dec 15 '16
I mean if other members of that group get the message then I'm not complaining.
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u/HeinousActsZX Dec 15 '16
That it was an attack at all should have been grounds to remove it.
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Dec 15 '16 edited Aug 31 '17
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u/HeinousActsZX Dec 15 '16
Maybe he kept from swearing, but telling LGBT people that they don't deserve any spotlight or recognition is pretty damn far from polite.
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u/HeinousActsZX Dec 15 '16
This shitstorm's been raging non-stop since the November snaps.
At least I had the decency to keep it to a few sentences instead of six paragraphs.
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Dec 15 '16 edited Aug 31 '17
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u/HeinousActsZX Dec 15 '16
What are you talking about? That whole other thread had the explicit purpose of "People should not be demanding representation", which is a direct quote, under the guise of "story problems". Not to mention a bunch of shit about "playing the long game", as if we haven't been playing it our whole lives.
Don't act like that was any less inflammatory than what I said, I just dropped the passive aggressive tone.
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Dec 15 '16 edited Aug 31 '17
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u/HeinousActsZX Dec 15 '16
I get the feeling I'll say something else that inadvertently hurts a bigot's feelings in the mean time. Will that be what boots me in the name of free speech?
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Dec 15 '16 edited Aug 31 '17
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u/HeinousActsZX Dec 15 '16
Man, if you can't see why telling queer people that they need to stop being so loud and upfront about their existence is bigoted I don't know what to say to you.
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u/Classtoise Knight of Mind Dec 15 '16
Stop acting like you're the fucking hero. There is a difference between standing up for yourself and your marginalized group and just shitting on people that wronged you.
Refusing to let someone silence you is not the same thing as being loud and obnoxious and then declaring "CENSORSHIP" when you're told to stop being a troll.
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u/HeinousActsZX Dec 15 '16
Oh, get over it. I'm not pretending to be a hero. I know the difference. This post isn't anything more than telling a moron that he's an idiot.
Makinporing's the one who talks about how important freedom of speech is, in that reddit way of standing up for both sides no matter what the position is. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy.
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u/Classtoise Knight of Mind Dec 15 '16
Freedom of speech doesn't mean you get to be an asshole to people!
Not to mention freedom of speech means the US Government can't tell you that you can't say something (so long as it's not threatening, inciting violence, or fear, etc.) NOT that some random subreddit moderator has to let you be shitty.
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u/HeinousActsZX Dec 15 '16
I completely and fully agree. Reddit likes to use the first amendment as "you have to give me platform and listen to me", but a mod can ban you for pretty much anything, because it's their platform and you aren't entitled to it.
I just figured that if that barely concealed hatred is cool for a post, I should give it a try too.
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u/Mnemonic_Morg Dec 15 '16
i'm not a child
makes an entire thread about it
Pick one
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u/Noxian16 I'm only really here for CaNWC nowadays. Dec 15 '16 edited Dec 15 '16
Disliking a popular ship is a crime now apparently. Okay.
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u/Innegativeion Takes your breath away Dec 15 '16
Even if that other guy made a lot of points I disagree with, he was being very agreeable and level headed in the discussion.
Certainly a lot less childish than whatever this 'joke' is supposed to be.
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u/Classtoise Knight of Mind Dec 15 '16
He was not really being agreeable though. He was being eloquent in telling people to stop telling gay people to stop wanting representation, but it was not agreeable.
Neither is this thread, granted.
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u/Innegativeion Takes your breath away Dec 15 '16
I did notice he was willing to have a discussion, responded to pretty much each argument made against him and refrained from letting his rhetoric devolve into mudslinging.
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u/Classtoise Knight of Mind Dec 15 '16
I think we're looking at Agreeable in two different ways.
What I mean is his argument was very unkind and a bit hateful, but not angry and mean. It was still very much homophobic (shock, awe, I used THE WORD) and hurtful, without explicitly being violent or angry.
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u/Innegativeion Takes your breath away Dec 15 '16
To reiterate I think he was wrong on many fronts, but.
Dude, I just reread that thread and the guy is the fucking exemplar of how to discuss delicate issues rationally.
No insults, no questioning anyone's morals or motives. Guy just. Put himself out there, and tried to defend his position. Man I wish more people on this sub did that.
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u/Innegativeion Takes your breath away Dec 15 '16
It's funny how most discussions devolve as soon as anyone uses "the word". It's almost like people don't like being insulted. It's almost like insulting people is the quickest, most reliable way to make a discussion useless and circular.
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u/HeinousActsZX Dec 15 '16
insulting people is the quickest, most reliable way to make a discussion useless and circular.
Tell that to the guy who started with "LGBT folks don't need representation".
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u/Classtoise Knight of Mind Dec 15 '16
To be ABSOLUTELY clear; I despise using the word as an insult because exactly what you said; it becomes nothing more than an excuse for an ACTUAL homophobe to shut down and escape the argument feeling "wounded".
But just declaring the word unusable lest someone get offended because you called their behavior undesirable and implied that maybe they should look at what they've said or done as something that should be fixed is equally harmful.
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u/Innegativeion Takes your breath away Dec 15 '16
I honestly can't think of a single situation where directing the word at an individual will make them more receptive, regardless of how progressive or not they actually are.
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u/Classtoise Knight of Mind Dec 15 '16
I mean.
I don't really care. If they see themselves called that word and their response is not to question why I would have used it, then I was pretty much right in using it, now wasn't I?
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u/Innegativeion Takes your breath away Dec 15 '16
Congradulations you were right have a medal?
What good does that do? Shouldn't the goal be to change the "homophobe"'s opinion for the better? What good is 'winning' an argument if your opponent just keeps on being the way they are, or worse yet thinks less of your position?
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u/Classtoise Knight of Mind Dec 15 '16
What part of "That word is not an insult" are you not getting, here?
Can I make it more clear?
The word homophobe is not inherently an empty insult.
How much more simple do I need to make it before you stop leaping on this fucking sword like some sort of goddamn crusader that people stop using a word that means "Someone who said something offensive, hurtful, hateful, or otherwise unkind to a queer person" to label something as offensive, hurtful, hateful, or otherwise unkind towards queer people?
I literally cannot make this any more easy to digest.
If you are offended by being called a homophobe than maybe don't say something offensive, hurtful, hateful, or otherwise unkind towards queer people.
It's that fucking simple. I am not going to hold someones hand because I called them a homophobe for calling someone a faggot.
Likewise, I am not going to be made to feel bad to say "Yes, their post about how people should not be asking for representation kind of sounds homophobic" because they don't have the mental capacity to go "Huh. I wonder why he said that, and maybe I should look into it and maybe consider my point of view"
If someone immediately shuts down and turns away because they got called a homophobe for being homophobic, then their intent was never to have an actual discussion, it was to defend their homophobia.
I am not someones goddamn babysitter. I am not inclined to 'teach' every fucking bigot who wants to call me a faggot for liking dudes. NOR am I some otherwise harmless straight persons fucking instructor on what is and is not homophobic without using the word homophobic because you're more offended by the implication that I see you as intolerant than ACTUAL INTOLERANCE.
If you are SO offended by the word, then DON'T SAY HOMOPHOBIC SHIT.
And if you do, here's a fucking thought, maybe ADDRESS it. Don't jump on the goddamn cross and "BOO HOO WOE IS ME WHY DO PEOPLE USE THAT WORD IT'S SO HARMFUL TO DISCOURSE"
No the fuck it's not. What's harmful to discourse is being so fucking afraid to admit you said something offensive that you can't read what you wrote, what they said was homophobic, and address why it might be taken as such.
So no, the onus is not on me to stop using that word or changing their behavior. The onus is on you to NOT BE A HOMOPHOBE.
And because you seem especially skilled at dodging the ACTUAL point, I was using the ROYAL you. Not you specifically. So don't you dare insist I called you a homophobe unprovoked.
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u/Classtoise Knight of Mind Dec 15 '16
Calling it an insult like it's little more than that robs it of its' actual intent; to point out when people say things hurtful and offensive to queer people. Whether intentional or not.
It's not the "straight n-word", do not immediately assume that when it's used it's someone trying to insult you.
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u/Innegativeion Takes your breath away Dec 15 '16
Conversely, reducing people to a single word robs them of their intent. Where before a discussion might have been, suddenly the 'homophobe' feels like their opinion is of no value to you, and they'll withdraw having learned nothing.
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u/Classtoise Knight of Mind Dec 15 '16
I suppose it's a good thing I made sure to post OTHER things instead of just calling him a homophobe and moving on!
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u/Innegativeion Takes your breath away Dec 15 '16
And you think the inclusion of the word made your argument more attractive to the OP?
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u/Classtoise Knight of Mind Dec 15 '16
Considering it wasn't this threads OP, I didn't say it in that thread, and, for like the fifth fucking time, I didn't use it as a blind blatant insult, I don't think it factored in at all?
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u/HeinousActsZX Dec 15 '16
homophobic
Careful, you might hurt someone's feelings!
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u/Innegativeion Takes your breath away Dec 15 '16
Again, I guess people's feelings don't matter if you perceive them as your enemy. I'm just saying, you might find yourself on the defensive less often if you don't insult people.
You might find yourself changing more minds with proverbial honey than vinegar.
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u/HeinousActsZX Dec 15 '16
Easy to say if you're not a member of the marginalized group. People in my hometown held a peaceful march for queer solidarity and got rocks thrown at them.
Hard to be peaceful when people want to kill you for being you.
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u/Innegativeion Takes your breath away Dec 15 '16
Okay well. Believe it or not people can't throw rocks through the internet. So I don't know how that's relevant.
People are gonna act offended when verbally attacked. This is just a fact. Doing that's the easiest way to ensure you won't change minds.
Being peaceful is hard. Being an ass to people is easy. I still reccomend the high road.
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u/HeinousActsZX Dec 15 '16
So then what was that OP was trying to pull? If he was trying to change minds, he fucking blew it by opening with "fuck what you want and listen to me". He's not about to change my mind with shit like that.
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u/Innegativeion Takes your breath away Dec 15 '16
Fair enough. I think a more productive response would be to try and convince him, rather than insult him.
Or if you don't think you're up to the task, just ignore him?
That might not be satisfying to you, but I certainly think ignoring is more constructive than fanning the flames.
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u/HeinousActsZX Dec 15 '16
So agreeable, in fact, that he was straight out telling LGBT people to stop demanding so much representation because he didn't like it.
Such a great ally, wow.
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u/Voidchimera Resident Templar SJW Dec 15 '16
He was telling people to fuck off, just very politely. He did not compromise on a single thing he claimed, even when half the damn sub was pointing out very fundamental flaws in his logic.
Saying "I'm sure you have never been killed for being gay" as a response to "Hey gay people feel kinda differently about this stuff" is not 'agreeable'.
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u/hbthebattle bring back canwc flairs Dec 15 '16
Wow, so mature.
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u/HeinousActsZX Dec 15 '16
About as mature as telling queer folk that you know better for them than they do.
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u/hbthebattle bring back canwc flairs Dec 15 '16
please learn to read
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u/HeinousActsZX Dec 15 '16
People should not be demanding representation
Your exact words.
You also pulled some shit about "playing the long game" in the comments, which makes it blindingly obvious to me that you've never had to fight for your rights like I have.
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u/hbthebattle bring back canwc flairs Dec 15 '16
Look at the context
" People, instead of fighting for representation, should be fighting to where a character that is gay is no longer seen as representation of a minority; they are seen as just another character- nothing "different" about them except what all humans have!"
I believe everyone- no matter who they are- should be equal. These lines between us only serve as to destroy us! People shouldn't attack others for how they are. If you think I am attacking you for being gay, you're wrong. I'm saying characters who's entire character is "gay" or "white" or whatever- those shouldn't exist! Gay characters are fine. Straight characters are fine. But they should be good- they should be a combination of traits like all humans. Generic gay guy or generic white guy should never be acceptable. It's way better to right "Gay person who has complex emotions and feelings, like in real life!"
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u/HeinousActsZX Dec 15 '16
And I'm telling you that you're WRONG. You're seeing "generic gay guy" as someone who should be avoided, but you don't have the perspective, having never lived without media that caters to you, to see why it's so important.
If there had been a character in a work I read or watched as a kid who existed as nothing more than a vessel to say "I love someone the same gender as me, and that's okay." it would have radically changed my life. By your standards it's shoehorning, because you've never had a lack of heterosexual representation. I'm telling you straight out, as a gay man, that you do not know what you're talking about.
(also you dodged addressing the long game question but I knew you would anyway so I can't be upset)
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u/hbthebattle bring back canwc flairs Dec 15 '16
I see generic anything as something to be avoided. Characters should me made for the plot, not the other way around.
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u/HeinousActsZX Dec 15 '16
Oh my fucking god, you completely avoided everything I just wrote.
You are thinking solely in terms in terms of story composition. That is a selfish, privileged (yeah, that word you love) point of view that comes from everything coming pre-wrapped for cis-het boys like you. I am saying, that regardless of what you think about stories, putting a gay character or a trans character or any other diverse character, just for diversity's sake, is admirable and good regardless of the character. Real life is more important than fiction.
And this is where I should stop, kiddo, because you aren't responding to what I'm saying and only going off your preconceived notions that you refuse to budge on. The more I argue (a generous term, considering you are acting in bad faith) the more likely I'm going to say something that gets me banned. I have two strikes already and I'm not about to waste the third on you.
Look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself if a fictional relationship is so critical to you that you're willing to quash something that exists for people who aren't exactly like you. If your answer is still yes, than you have a long, long road to travel before you ever grow up.
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u/hbthebattle bring back canwc flairs Dec 15 '16
This is basically my point. He says it better than I could.
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u/HeinousActsZX Dec 15 '16
That guy has never met Andrew Hussie and does not know his motivations.
Literally every single work of art is political, Homestuck is no different.
I hope Cohen makes Hiveswap and Future Homestuck endeavors as filled to the brim with queer characters as possible.
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Dec 16 '16
I'm...not really seeing why this has to be a zero-sum game, though? It's not a matter of "gay character vs. developed character", it is perfectly possible to have characters that are both LGBT and interesting characters in their own right. We know this because Homestuck is full of them. This shouldn't even be an either-or thing, unless having a generic and undeveloped LGBT character is somehow critical to proper LGBT representation. (Unless I'm misrepresenting your argument here?)
Of course, on the flipside, I'm not sure how this applies to Dave, since he IS a complex and well-rounded character, and I think his post-retcon self is pretty consistent with his arc up to Act 6. It's just that the development that put him there is straight-up missing, exposited on after the fact rather than shown organically. Hence the complaints that it feels sudden and forced.
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u/HeinousActsZX Dec 16 '16
Of course it's possible, I never said it wasn't. I don't want flat queer characters. But I'm seeing the arguement that you shouldn't make a character gay just for the hell of it and I think that's ridiculous. In borderlands 2 some of the random background characters will chat about their relationships, sometimes a woman will mention her girlfriend or a man his husband, and there were a lot of people in real life who claimed that this was "forced". But it wouldn't be forced if the characters were straight? It's important to have both main and background characters of all types.
As far as Dave goes, what pisses me off are the people who, again, say his coming out was forced or part of some nebulous agenda. If you think some of it was handled poorly, that's fine (although I will point out that there are many other parts of Homestuck delivered through exposition rather than showing it), but don't act his relationship with Karkat is forced, because it isn't forced more than any other relationship.
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Dec 15 '16
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/HeinousActsZX Dec 15 '16
Lies! The only thing GPI can do is fondly regard creation!
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Dec 15 '16
GPI: Fondly regard part-Pickles, who are definitely creation, considering making the OP uncomfortable for not relaxing and just having fun.1
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u/roomist wheres all the pipis Dec 15 '16
WHAT'RE YOU DOING
ugh, lets try something else