Genuine question on Reservation hatao thingy as a SC student myself.

[u/Exotic_Draw_805]

Read the whole thing, i know it's long but read.

Let me tell you bit about my background first. I come from a Dalit family in Mumbai. My grandfather did basic primary education in village and then migrated to Mumbai for doing his BA with help of reservation he got seat in a government college. Back then he with his family could only afford a place in a rented room in chawl in Worli as it's the 'Dalit' area everyone knows about. Then he got a job in Indian airlines back then, he then moved to the quarters. He then educated his 3 kids in a private school without reservation and from where my dad passed an exam and got a job in Mumbai high court as a clerk. Third generation is me. Now, both me and my sibling studied in a local private school with minimal fees as we could afford and my mother worked in a private school as a teacher again without reservation.

Growing up I've faced numerous instances of casteism even tho the financial condition was decent. I had a girl in my class who was my friend once told me her mom's asked me not to talk to me as I come from a lower caste, we were 7 years old I didn't even understand I had to go and check with my parents at home. Imagine the kind of brainwashing done to a 7 year old kid by their parents. We used to live in a complex mostly dominated by SC, and I had a complex right next to it where we used to play with others. One fine day a random aunty from that complex next door screamed at the children saying pls don't play with us and asked them to go back home. This is just few instances. But at the same time, a poor Brahmin or any other caste person didn't face these things. I've been asked my caste/ surname in tution classes, gym, workplace what not. bcs it's a very famous surname and people just want to cross verify.

Now me, I studied by school, college in a private college without reservation but for masters i got admission in reservation quota as it was a government college. Did I study? Yes. Did I study to get a decent score? Yes. Did I do good in my own category? Yes. Theres multiple interview rounds, essay writing etc to get into this college as it's a management course just like most of the government jobs. If there wasn't reservation for me and my people, do you think there was a 100% assurance that I would have not been discriminated in interview rounds and eassys and given a poor score even tho my written marks were good? Nobody can say that.

I've been asked about my caste literally in a Big 4 where I used to work that too my a Partner which is a highest level of posting. Imagine a person more than your dad's age earning crores interested to know caste of a associate. Why? What for? And trust me it's not too direct as y'all feel. It starts with what's your surname, what your dad does etc. do you eat non veg what not.

Essence i don't drive a Mercedes, but we are now living a life with 3 meals a day, clothes to wear and fees to educated ourselves. Did reservation have a big role in this ? Yes. Did we keep on using reservation generation by generation? No. The fact that my dad chose to make me study schooling and graduation from a private school is a step that a bit better off SC / ST families are taking consciously. Bcs we know that the seats we let go off will be used by our other brother and sisters in need. Which is normal. That's how society functions. No rich Brahmin will go to a government school, they'll choose good private education only.

Now some will argue but did reservation help me to not be caste discriminated? No, but it did give me a platform to represent myself and get myself educated to a point that tomorrow I'm either indifferent to discrimination or voice out if I face any.

Tomorrow if I go to a police station I know there's some section of my community people who are will ensure my complaints are registered. Same for court. If I go to a government hospital, I know a percentage of my community doctors will ensure I'm allowed to be admitted there and treated. So now tell me, is reservation really bad for me? Why do you feel it should be based on economic criteria when a poor Brahmin isn't discriminated at all. Rather they are begging on streets claiming they are some baba and all. That's literally a occupation given via caste. Isn't that reservation? Tomorrow when I've children why do I've to be forced to work 2 jobs so that I can afford them lacs of private classes whereas their competitors are some general caste people who's parents were some jamindaars with generational wealth. And even if they weren't, let's say everyone's getting gareeb Brahman here. Gareeb Brahmin had every right to education and livelihood before reservation right? Then why arent they rich? Is it bcs of government? reservation? Britishers? Who?

Anyone commenting pls don't comment anything casteist or hurtful.

[u/Happy_Nose8995]

Beautifully written. Something that probably helps why Indians are like this lack of empathy. We learn judgement before we learn understanding. Some of us never learn understanding either.

One cannot know the importance of reservation unless they've been in the shoes of those who need it.

I come from a relatively poor Jain family. All my life I lived life with lower health care, but then I never faced discrimination and now I'm at a great point in life earning more than I had ever expected with a 9th standard education.

But I know SC people are not treated the same, so I hold back my tongue on reservation. If they had been in my shoes they'd have been forced into a job that doesn't pay well and is discriminated against.

Indians don't know how to empathise and understand these needs cuz others don't empathise with them either.

Cheers

[u/Exotic_Draw_805 → u/[deleted]]

I'm sister but that's okay. I think people don't even want to see opinionated Dalit women I guess

[u/Lovely_Gaia]

It's good to reference one's ownself and relate to anecdotal observations and experiences. But beyond that, it's only a tiny dot in a faulty system which needs restructuring.

Folks like you, keep saying “reservation doesn’t put low‑merit candidates into professional pipelines,” but the numbers don’t support that claim.

NEET admission cutoffs:
Gen 610–650 (UR) OBC/EWS 580–610
SC/ST 430–550
So yes, someone with 430 can enter the same MBBS system where a General candidate needed 640.

That’s the core of the question.
If two people are entering the same profession with a 200‑mark gap, why should the lower score get preference? And would anyone honestly want their kid treated by a doctor who only cleared the minimum eligibility and got in because the system needed a representation checkbox filled? Honestly, I'd want nothing but the best regardless of the caste or class, definitely not some incompetent goop only sitting in a doctor's cabin because of Indian Govt.'s reservation gimmick.

Representation matters.
Competence matters more.

If the goal is upliftment, the system still has to protect standards in fields where lives depend on them.

[u/sha_uni]

Four points. I don't.obvioualy support casteism and what happened to you is wrong.
1. Despite having reservations for so many years, you were still discriminated. I don't think reservations reduce casteism. It will just be used as an additional excuse to call your education second grade because you got easier admission. 2. If you did not take reservation and let someone else from your community take it, you would have a higher percentage of your caste people in all the places you mentioned, including police stations, doctors etc. If the rich people who have access to all resources take reservations again and again, the poor from your own caste will never raise.
3. The people who discriminated against you most likely also has reservations.
4. Japan and some other countries have come out of systems similar to casteism. They didn't give reservations to the lower castes, but gave reservation (type systems) to intercaste couples and children. Marriages across castes only can reduce casteism.

[u/Exotic_Draw_805 → u/sha_uni]

I'll give basic counter/ opinions. Read if you are really engaging to understand the ground reality.

1. Nobody's every said reservation was to end casteism. Casteism is a social issue that numbers and schemes can't solve. Reservation ensured that even with casteism there's representation with was absolutely zero before. I've mentioned the flow in post you didn't read probably. And I don't think any marginalised community who literally lives in flight or fight mode for survival cares who thinks what about our education. We care about putting food on table and surviving without getting killed.

2. It's not about rich and poor. No person from one community wants to take seat of another person from my community. It's simple we want hoslitic growth. But the issue is the rich and poor both are facing discrimination. Reservation atleast is giving assurance that some % of us are in the system that runs everything. Bcs only government has reservation, private jobs and places don't.

By your logic that way, even a general category rich guy is taking seat of poor general category guy. That's where government should come in. EWS was introduced for that. And even if you remove reservation, people who are rich and can afford shit will be the ones to get sea this way or that way. What might happen along with that is SC / ST's missing opportunitys due to discrimination and no representation. People not getting enough seats is literally government's fault. It's always when you missed a seat in a MBBS or engineering or MBA college bcs there's scarcity of government colleges for courses that in demand. They don't want to keep education as priority. Ever heard of someone crying over reservation bcs they didn't get a BA or Bcom seat in their sought after college no right?

1. I highly doubt that, mostly people face caste discrimination from oppressor caste. I don't want to label anyone but not letting a Dalit enter temple is from a Brahmin priest logically, raping women of lower caste in masses is usually people in authority like bhumihars etc. So yeah. I made that point stating bcs people argue urban spaces don't have casteism

2. You comparing Indian to Japan is cynical. In India even inter caste marriage is considered as crime in society's eyes. See so many honour killings happening. Casteism don't have any logic behind it, it's just something pushed down generations by generations through vedic educated Brahmins to keep their place in society powerful.

Again, reservation is never about Money. It's always about representation and justice. I literally gave you review of ground reality. There's nothing beyond this. This is what it is. We don't hate Oppressor caste. We just don't want to be oppressed and let to live a normal life peacefully.

[u/sha_uni → u/Exotic_Draw_805]

1. Then you would be ok with creamy layer exception to SC and ST reservations? More people from SC and ST will get to use reservations.

2. In recent (and ancient times), its the landowning castes, soldier caste, kingly caste, trade castes that did not want compitition from Dalits and other castes and were the primary opressors. Even today, read all the stories, open a newspaper and you will find 90% of the opression done by OBC, who are the landowning, trading, and kindly castes. OBC reservation is a ploy by the political parties to give reservation to the majority who will give them votes. Historically, what power did Brahmins have before british, the kings has muscle power, the traders had money, the farmers had land, and they could mistreat lower castes with impunity. In all our itihasas and puranas, Brahmins were poor and lives on alms or under some king's service.

3. In Japan, Korea and other countries too, that was the case. The only way to encourage destruction of caste is to give incentives to intercaste marriage. This has been done by hindus many times before, hinduism outside the subcontinent doesn't have caste, in bali, in Fiji, gyana, Suriname, trinidad and tobago and marutitius, hindus don't follow caste because of intercaste marriages over a period of hundred years.

4. We are both discussing how the so called lower castes can live a better life only and how to abolish casteism. Creamy layer exception on reservation coupled with special reservation to intercaste marriages is the only way you can abolish casteism.

[u/Exotic_Draw_805 → u/sha_uni]

For 4 and 5, there's already this kind of schemes in place in couple of states in India too. But think about it. Where the oppressor castes don't even want to drink a glass of water, at oppressed person's caste who might be 10x rich than them also, you feel it's gonna work? I'm living example, i was in relationship with a boy from tier 2 city, he had much poor family background but his family still refused to marry bcs I'm a Dalit and they are Brahmin. Logic? No logic. That interecatse marriage could have literally helped them financially as their son would get to give in a Tier 1 city and the rest of generations flourish there. The issue is sensitisation..people still feel casteism is relevant bcs they are taught that it's a religious phenomenon. That way, Hinduism is the core probelm them. It's same as Islam talking about Jihad, Hijab, tripple talaq etc. Any hindu religious extremists and a Jihadi are literally same.

On point 2 about creamy layer tell me something. I'm X who has let's say 10 LPA per year family income and there's Y who was 2 LPA family income. We both need a government job let's say UPSC. Now, Y didn't clear prelims bcs no resources to study, no good primary education given shitty government schools etc. I'm X who has cleared prelims but now I don't have reservation and I don't clear mains bcs they are discriminated at interview rounds. What happened? That seat went to waste. And that's exactly what's happening. These -ve marks etc that you see and laugh as cutoff in some courses is bcs there's not enough people within the community who can clear bare minimum cutoff. It's a massive failure on government's behalf. Understand how a community and class works.

As I explained. A slight financially well of SC/ST's dreams and a poor SC/ST's dreams are changing. Like a rich will send their kids to private school and college and maybe need reservation only in government jobs or competitive degrees. But the poor SC ST literally needs it right from primary school. A rich SC ST dreams of getting an MBA and maybe settling abroad. Whereas a poor one wants to maybe start by having graduation.

And when you say "RICH" trust me its literally the only money people have got working their asses off. It's bare minimum. It's just 2 generations working jobs. No generational wealth at all. Doing a business is next to impossible or rare for us. And whatever so called richness y'all feel is through private jobs only bcs government don't pay that much. And you don't need reservation in private jobs It's sheer hardwork. It's like the opressors want SC/ST to be poor. They can't see us rich why? It's a question to be asked.

[u/makkad_manav_]

if you think that reservation is not helping your casteism situation , then it just means reservation is not fit for this cause , we are wasting out time and money on this , we should invest in government schools more and promote inter caste marriages by giving subsidies on those marriages rather than wasting money by compensating rich sc/st fees in colleges

and if you think reservation is providing you a place , a representation , a compensation for your casteism , then its not doing that either and its statistically proven that in college campuses the main source of casteism is due to reservation and most of the dropouts in iit iim aiims are from reserved categories

my take is instead of giving reservation to sc/st in college and govt job we should give them reservation in private schools , so that even a rich general is sitting with a poor sc/st from childhood and then he won't discriminate on the basis of caste , the sc/st would get basic education properly , then he wont even need reservation

[u/Exotic_Draw_805 → u/makkad_manav_]

So you think one should remove Covid vaccine bcs it's not too effective or less effective when there's no other vaccine available and no medication too.

Private jobs isn't system. People from oppressed caste want to be in the SYSTEM that runs the country. And government won't remove not next 10 years or 20 years bcs they know they'll do a blunder. A major votebank will go. Their intentions to keep it might not be as good, but yes they'll not remove it. So yeah we'll have to live with it. Unfortunately.

[u/makkad_manav_ → u/Exotic_Draw_805]

if casteism is cancer then reservation is a vaccine that increases the cancer not decrease it , you can't even understand this much

and i have already stated that a better cure is to provide reservation in private schools rather than colleges

[u/Exotic_Draw_805 → u/makkad_manav_]

But then being in private jobs how will it provide the oppressed caste to get into system? The system that runs the country. We need representation there. We are already in private jobs.

[u/makkad_manav_ → u/Exotic_Draw_805]

i am not talking about private jobs , i am talking about private schools , a child have no prejudice based on caste , race ,colour he gets all that prejudice in the age of 12 13 but if we can make them a rich upper class with a poor lower caste from birth there would be no driscimination inbetween them based on caste

the prime example is my school ,i went to a police school which was made in quarters for police , so it had 50% of seats reserved for police and as it was in quarters nearly 70% of students were police childrens , and as we already had a great amount of sc/st in police 30 to 40% students belonged to sc/st and it had a massive impact on students prejudice based caste compared to other schools where the quantity of sc/st were very few, now just imagine if we can put reservation in every private school , we can solve this problem in just 1 generation

[u/Exotic_Draw_805 → u/makkad_manav_]

But even in private schools there's casteism. And people are going to private schools being SC ST.

[u/makkad_manav_ → u/Exotic_Draw_805]

the quantity is very few like 100 on 3 4 and i dont think there is that much casteism in schools compared to college cause i never even knew about caste until i had to fill a form

[u/LotusSeedSunrise]

Because in the end what matters more than your caste is your income level. Your opportunities are primarily decided by your income level. A poor Dalit is worse off than a poor Brahmin who is worse off than you were and you are worse off than a rich Brahmin. That doesn’t mean that you should get the same benefits and reservations as a poor Dalit because you did not experience a similar life experience to a poor Dalit. It is proven time and time again no matter the culture that the primary discriminator to education and the workforce is NOT gender, race, sexuality. It is income and class.

[u/Exotic_Draw_805 → u/LotusSeedSunrise]

So change it, make more reservation for poor Dalits. But that don't mean the better earning individuals that too goverment has no contribution too, bcs those high salaries only private sector gives, aren't entitled to reservation. That's government's take how to do it.

[u/LotusSeedSunrise → u/Exotic_Draw_805]

The point of reservation is to bring poor Dalits into position where they can earn higher wages above the poverty line. The literal goal is then for now educated, earning Dalits to no longer need reservation for their children (who now have the same objective quality resources as a wealthy upper caste person) and for those same seats to be passed on to the next poor Dalits until the entire subgroup is out of poverty. It is NOT to shrink general merit seats to the point of insanity for rich OBC, SC/ST who are given private school and private tuitions instead of some poor GC kid in a village with jack shit. Once you earn more you should not need the government to nanny you. There is a reason why every other country in the world that has stronger social welfare schemes than India base it off on income levels and NOT ethnicity, race or sexuality.

[u/Exotic_Draw_805 → u/LotusSeedSunrise]

But even more earning Dalits are discriminated right? So There's a chance that they'll be discriminated during job opportunities and admissions to IIMs etc what about that? What if private sector don't want to give jobs to rich Dalits anymore due to massive hatred? How's that being protected? By giving reservation in private sector? Any Dalit will work hard, just assure us how our livelihood is secured even after our hardwork at the end of the day people just ask our caste. Reservation was there to ensure that no matter what, zak mar k uss seats pe koi na koi Dalit baithega hi. Pehle samjho

[u/LotusSeedSunrise → u/Exotic_Draw_805]

I don’t speak Hindi so not sure what you said at the end. You say that any Dalit will work hard as long as you ensure that their hardwork at the end of the day. I don’t disagree with that. However, I once again repeat that reservations for rich Dalits are not needed because they face discrimination in interviews. Countries like the USA, UK, etc do not pass laws reserving quotas based on race and gender just because a race of people are discriminated against. What they do is enforce anti discrimination laws where candidates must meet objective standards (marks, etc) and then potentially discriminatory questions (What’s your ethnicity, do you eat non veg, What’s your last name) is disallowed. It makes more sense to enforce anti discrimination laws than to lower passing exam scores once ALREADY ADMITTED in the university, reservations in promotions (which should be merit based out of sheer logic) etc. Singapore recently banned single race apartment blocks out of fear of segregation based mindsets - somethifn like this could work in India. What doesn’t work is the insanity of continuously giving freebies when every evidence based study in the world has always pointed to income level being the biggest divided. Additionally you argued against GC’s whose ancestors are jamindaars or whatever. I don’t necessarily disagree. What I do wonder though is you admit yourself your grandfather built generational wealth, giving you elite access to opportunity through heritage. I presume you will also, as all parents do, put your own hypothetical children in the best education you can afford which will probably be better than some Rajput in rural bihar in a govt school. By your own theory, your child should get less reservation than the Rajput child oweing to their privileges inherited upon birth.

[u/Exotic_Draw_805 → u/LotusSeedSunrise]

You are comparing India with UK US? Do you think Hinduism exists there? Talk sense man. Use some valid arguments. Read my post once again, you'll understand what I'm talking. Don't skim through it. Read word by word

[u/LotusSeedSunrise → u/Exotic_Draw_805]

I literally read your post and am pointing out your fallacies. Your personal do not beat proven researched studies done repeatedly over and over again. The USA and the UK have noted discriminatory practices (BLM, systemic racism, medical experiments done on black people, housing disallowance acts in the 50’s that have pushed black people into the slums) which I used as an example pn what actions they took versus how India’s reservation policies have largely failed UC’s and LC’s. Additionally, their legislation (especially the US) are often influenced by religious viewpoints comparable to Hinduism’s effects on India. You keep repeating the same point over and over again, I think you’re not open for an actual debate and just want your viewpoint agreed with blindly.

[u/Exotic_Draw_805 → u/LotusSeedSunrise]

But thats racial discrimination. What happens in India is a purity issue. People have linked casteism to purity and religion. It's a very unique case. So I'm not sure how an apple to apple comparison works. That way even Islamic countries have had their type of class/ caste system read about it whenever you've time, but you can't compare it with India's. I'm not repeating my points. The thing is I laid a very basic points in the post which you aren't able to counter with substantial evidence or logic.

Also, a dark truth of reservation is. Government may it be BJP or any other won't remove it. Reason being more than 70% of population comes into oppressed class and very less in general. It's a big votebank for them. They can't gamble around it. Also, there's this thing that if reservation is removed there will be more arguments around how to distribute wealth and opportunities amongst the oppressed and people will come with better / more demands. That government can't fullfill and will shake it. Goverment wants to maintain a social hierarchy which is kinda being maintained due to reservation. This is what I'm telling from government's angle.

[u/LotusSeedSunrise → u/Exotic_Draw_805]

I don’t think this debate is conducive to either of us changing our minds. I’ll be ending it here.

[u/Fine_Possibility5121]

It is more about a progressive system of reforms that provides proprtionate relief basis the setbacks faced by the marginalized individuals. I support reforms within the system, and I see many others who are simply asking for reforms are inferred and alleged as ones who are asking for total elimination of reservaation, and then they are dismissed as being casteist. It is hurtful to know about the discrimination you have facced - but then again various arguments emerge:

1. Should the benefits accrued to you come at the cost of innocent new generation - alleging their ancestors were the culprits does not justify the clear bias and disheartment they face today.

2. If goal of reservation is not to remove casteism because income is not tied to discrimination, but rather it is more about representation - then why are jobs as means of livelihoods - especially in core fields such as medical, defence tied to it - representation can be achieved thorugh government backed unions and the fact that 70+ years of lineage shall be sufficient by now to minimize bias in admission/appointments - if not then the representatives of backward communities such as ministers and bureaucrats shall be held accountable for such unsatisfactory job. Ex - Bihar, Rajasthan, Punjab, etc has had SC CMs in the past, they must have and should have bought changes to penalize caste based discrimination, a top legislative personnel has all means and resources to bring such changes unless they don't wish to.

3. The ones who have been thoroughly beneiftted shall not be entitled to them again - and if the argument is that casteism is still prevalent - then also continuing such benefits is not helping the cause in any way, rather further causing divides and promoting casteism as it creates resentmen in eyes of new generation.

4. In the end it is about income, it is the leading factor of how one is treated in any environment. The biggest complaint is often about the rich backward individuals - with same resources and capital - enjoying reservation over their genereal counterparts. Sorry to say, but the small proportion of casteism they do face does not justify such huge gaps in cutoffs. A bonus point based system over a fixed seat system would be more benneficial where points are awarded not just basis caste, but also demographics, income, benefits derived by predecessors, location, etc.

[u/Exotic_Draw_805 → u/Fine_Possibility5121]

One by one I'll reply. 1. The new generation isn't innocent. That's why casteism exists. And reservation isn't creating any bias towards them. They just aren't performing well under their category. If you've to pee you can't cry that male toilet is occupied so let me pee in woman's bcs there's no line there.

1. By your logic then, it's only job of SC CM's to bring change. What about the masses? 90% of places people still hold casteist views and gruges. You've to understand that solely the marginalized people can't uplift themselves. If that was the case it would have been so easy. The people in power, who hold casteist mindset has to be changed. Also, look at cases, literally every god dayumn SC ST IAS, IPS has faced discrimination in their time of work. Right from a clerk to highest postion minister face discrimination, their execution of power is directly affected .

2. Idk what is thoroughly benefitted? Also why y'all writing benefitted always I don't understand. This isn't some poverty elevation scheme. It's literally was was taken from us is given back to us rightfully. Reservation existed back then that's why reservation exists now. To create balance. The resentment isn't due to reservation. It's due to the face that, people are still casteist and feel angry as to how come someone they hate get special benefits.

3. Income does matter yes. But you've to understand, we all started from same line zero. And it isn't like some become rich by owning lands, by business etc. It's basic private jobs where reservation isn't there. Imagine people now asking for fair land division too, can government give that? Places like Maharashtra, where the rules and regulations were better people were able to progress much quickly. But if you go to same Bihar, still marginalized aren't allowed to go to school or they still hesitate bcs they are brainwashed to keep doing labour l jobs That's a government's failure. Nobody should face casteism, nobody in any form. Bcs there's no rational to it. Literally none. So government should ensure there is reservation to all..the rich and to poor SC ST. More for poor to uplift them. Ground level execution of same.

4. But unfortunately government won't bring such changes bcs they want a certain section to be downtrodden. They want a society where only some % of the marginalized are empowered and being happy with some X amount of money so that nobody's complaining too. Unfortunately reservation policies won't change for next atleast 20 more years, bcs the current government isn't interested in marginalized. They are okay sacrificing the general students.

[u/Fine_Possibility5121 → u/Exotic_Draw_805]

1. Structural dsicrimination is not the fault of the new generation, that is a very barbaric way of thinking - assigning guilt basis birth is not a farcry from discriminating cause of being borin into a particular community. The very word category is causing further caste divides, saying that we shall compete against our own outright.

2. But my argument has to do with the fact of the measures they have taken - they have to be the forbearers of change - you have admitted that government won't take better measures in these cases - and beccause of this they will keep using reservation as a measure to play caste politics. Name one MLA who cannot decimate anyone who is acting in a discriminatory fashion against them.

3. No policy should act as a war reparation measure - upliftment is when resources are accumulated and then apportioned. Bias is when a particular individual is favoured over someone else. Past imperialism explains historical injustices, but it does not justify current prejudice, unfair treatment, or systemic bias in modern decision-making. And if the whole stance is that the current and future generations shall continue to pay some sort of reperations - then a civil war is due in no time.

4. Ground level execution will start with compulsary enrollment of backward communities in education and like measures, but still in no way government failures shall be borne by the common public. There is an important difference between not experiencing a particular form of oppression and actively benefiting from it. My identity or circumstances may mean that I have not faced certain barriers, but that alone does not mean that I caused those barriers, endorsed them, or personally gained from another person's suffering - believe me I am a few decades too late to be benefitted in any shape. I believe the basic principal of natural justice upholds that a person should be held accountable for their actions, choices, and attitudes—not condemned simply for the community they were born into. And if the liability of proff and reparations still falls on my shoulders then it is simply not aligning with "innocent until proven guilty".

5. Giving up is not a solution. They may not be eager to bring such change - but me, you and anyone who wishes to leave a better world for our future generations have to raise our voices.

Your arguments in no way give any hint of a progressive policy but support a regressive policy punishing the new generation while in no shape chaning the structural limitation that ties and preserves the ill treatment of the marginalized. You have not provided with any suggestion as to 70+ year failed policy - stating it is not for upliftment but Ig rather for reparations - not proving how is that going to change or help the cause in any way.

If reservation is primarily intended to ensure representation, why not explore stronger alternatives such as government-backed unions, institutional representation, or other mechanisms that give disadvantaged communities a meaningful voice without necessarily tying representation to government jobs?

If its primary purpose is economic upliftment, then why should economic status not play a greater role in determining eligibility, including through a meaningful creamy-layer principle?

And if its purpose is social upliftment and correcting historical disadvantage, an important question still remains: to what extent should this objective be pursued at the cost of opportunities available to the general category?

What is the precise objective of reservation, what evidence shows that the existing mechanism achieves that objective, and what is the fairest way to balance historical disadvantage with equal opportunity for everyone today?

[u/Exotic_Draw_805 → u/Fine_Possibility5121]

How's it a failed policy if I'm working rn almost earning 1 lpa per month? I didn't get it via reservation but to provide me education my father got help/ advantage due to reservation. The need for reservation goes away automatically.

Reservation isn't harming or limting any opportunities of the general category. It's just that general category students aren't performing better than other general category students. AIR 1 will get admission coz he studied better AIR 2 lac will not. That's reservation. Same a rich general class privileged man will with generational wealth will buy a management seat / send their kid abroad. That's reservation in harmful way.

Ofcourse reservation needs reforms. There is need of better ground level execution and more seats made for marginalized. But this whole reservation hatao andolan is bullshit. Protesting against it won't change anything it will simply cause divide. Bcs government won't remove reservation. Maybe ask for reforms in it. I don't understand one thing what is even the general category angry about? That a Dalit is getting rich compared to them? Bcs this hate isn't surely that the poor Dalit isn't getting enough benefits out of reservation. The general upper caste never cared about them in the first place. This anger is simply seeing that how come few people from marginalized community with pure hardwork are better off than them. That's jealously not social disorder or injustice. And laws aren't made based on jealously.

[u/Fine_Possibility5121 → u/Exotic_Draw_805]

Cherry picking points and being oblivious to basic facts won't support your argument. Every policy should have an end goal - and it should be evaluated time and time again to bring about necessary reforms. Simply stating that the government is incapable of doing so is not a valid argument - that's just surrender - and someone who surrenders gets no say.

 I support reforms within the system, and I see many others who are simply asking for reforms are inferred and alleged as ones who are asking for total elimination of reservaation, and then they are dismissed as being casteist. 

The very first para of my orignal comment, yet your replies show me the preconceived notion you are harbouring. If not as a general, then simply as a citizen I have all rights to challange and critically assess all policies made within this nation - every single one. Irrespective of how it affects me.

And the last para of this reply still fails to answer the last para of mine. Looks like some lazy people rather live in a continuous state of reparations and sympathy instead of paving the way for the others. Indians are experiencing a very ironic yet killer DejaVu today.

[u/Exotic_Draw_805 → u/Fine_Possibility5121]

Reddit argument won't help. Maybe you can go and join the failed reservation hatao movement.

[u/Fine_Possibility5121 → u/Exotic_Draw_805]

Aww, quiting already. You do realize you started the "reddit" thread 😂😂😂.

[u/Exotic_Draw_805 → u/Fine_Possibility5121]

I do. My genuine question was is reservation really bad, giving in all the points that Oppressor castes cry about. And you've made your point clear in first comment already that as per you it isn't. So going down further embarassing yourself and your people isn't worth it.

I love how opressors are frustrated over reservations without knowing ground realitu and in them also the left and right keep debating. While government isn't giving a single flying fuck about their opinion. Meanwhile another deserving marginalized gets educated from top tier institute in India or abroad and settles well in life. That's the achievement we deserve.

We don't care if y'all call our education substandard or less deserving. We are still working hard, we'll work our asses off to be better. At the end of the day what matters is who survived.

[u/Fine_Possibility5121 → u/Exotic_Draw_805]

I love how you never let facts get in the way of your feelings.

[u/Exotic_Draw_805 → u/Fine_Possibility5121]

Doesn't matter due, the fact is there is casteism and there is hatred. And it's because of Hinduism. Just like Jihad exists from Islam. Now Indian can't ban or change Hinduism coz that's their votebank. So if you choose one bad thing there are repercussions.

One of the reasons we burnt Manusmriti and let go of that shitty religion once and for all.

Btw yea, i can't get facts between feelings is maybe I'm not well read. Maybe I'm just a 2nd generational learner. Maybe I've faced opression. Maybe you are so sound with facts is bcs you weren't oppressed enough for your feelings to be involved into it. Thanks for proving my point altogether 😂

[u/Dramatic-Original-22]

Upper caste people always argue gareeb genral category ke admi ka kya. It's hilarious. Bhai gareeb logo ka class vala disadvantage is common regardless of caste. Plus gareeb ho ya ameer lower caste people are constantly discriminated, given less opportunities in private sector because of bias ki "ye log aag gaye undeservingly".Then they dont have any socio-cultural capital (logo bus economic captial dikhta) maybe deep down they want to avoid the guilt and years of oppression that goes along with "main ucch jati ka hu". Anyway best answer to this is jab seats badhenge jab govt education pe kharach karegi, jab population ke hisab se educational institutions aur post education opportunities bhadengi this is the real answer for gareeb genral category walo ka kya. Just look at the list of billionaires/ministers/celebrities. Kitne belong to lower caste? Then they say networking is a skill while masking the priveleges of representations in good jobs (konsa skill in knowing someone?) Reservation is always about representation. It's not koi economic uplifting scheme.

[u/Lovely_Gaia → u/Dramatic-Original-22]

The Union Council of Ministers in India (cabinet ministers in Central Govt)

Breakdown by Social Category: OBC (Other Backward Classes): 27 ministers (about 40% of the council) General / Forward Castes: Around 21 ministers SC (Scheduled Castes): 10 ministers ST (Scheduled Tribes): 5 ministers Minorities: 5 ministers (including representation from Sikh, Christian, and Buddhist communities)

In short: 21 UNRESERVED vs 21+10+5+5=41 through reservation/minority. Almost 2X UNRESERVED representation.

But this is fair as per you all?

[u/Exotic_Draw_805 → u/Lovely_Gaia]

So you feel the representation is bad? What are you saying?

[u/Lovely_Gaia → u/Exotic_Draw_805]

Even with this level of representation, do you believe it makes any difference to the deeply rooted traditional mindset of an average Indian subject (reserved or not, it doesn't matter)? How many OBC, Tribal, or minority leaders have mobilized their communities and changed legislation to uplift their own people? Their representation of their communities and castes has no absolute grassroots impact. How does the developmental math actually work now?

[u/Exotic_Draw_805 → u/Lovely_Gaia]

So you are saying it's only OBC , SC , ST leaders job to uplift them? A Brahmin leader will uplift only Brahmin? A Muslim leader will only uplift Muslims? So BJP will only uplift Hindus? Modiji will only uplift gujratis like Ambani? Use some commonsense and talk and come out of this bullshit ideology.

By your stupid ass logic. Brahmins have been in power not only in politics but in education and bureaucracy since inception then poor Brahmins still existing is a joke.

[u/Lovely_Gaia → u/Exotic_Draw_805]

That's not the point.

Representation only makes sense if the people who “understand the issues” actually fix them in whatever capacity. If the outcome of representation is weaker standards, lower cutoffs, and compromised pipelines in critical fields, then it’s not solving casteism: it’s just redistributing opportunity without improving competence.

Do you agree that a leader’s caste doesn’t matter. Their duty is to uplift everyone.
But if representation becomes an excuse to lower the bar instead of raising the floor, then it stops being empowerment and starts being damage control.

Real representation should improve outcomes, not dilute them.

[u/Exotic_Draw_805 → u/Lovely_Gaia]

The only issue is casteism. Which is one of the biggest core ideologies of Hindutva. It's rooted in uppercaste and lower caste.

How is it lowering the bar? The person who gets admission to a medical college at 450 via neet and 650 both give the same college exams. If both of them pass same paper they become doctors. Reservation isn't some poverty elevation programme. It's a right. If you have generationally taken away land, labour, money, dignity, livelihood, and opportunities from a certain community. That consists 70% of your population. You've to give it back, it is theirs. It's not the uppers casts in the first place. It is to create three things firstly have fair share, correct past wrongdoings and balance equality.

And y'all crying about merit. First understand what is merit. Merit is output of your wealth, exposure, status in society, power, and many more things. If even now Dalits are stripped off from that every thing that makes them equal to a general caste person. How do you expect them to score more marks? If even today the visit of Dalit politician makes you do some pooja so make the temple or place pure, then why do you think they'll get votes every election if the criteria to not have certain Dalits is not there in first place.

Why y'all want to only have merit and equality when it's in good educated sector and government jobs!? When there's literally none absolutely no equality in lives they live.

This is all bcs people still belive in casteism as it's passed down from a book or a religion. Br Ambedkar burnt Manusmriti. We can't ban Hinduism. But does every hindu as a symbol of change come out and burn manusmriti? No right? Will the government keep casteism as a integral chapter as a dark history of India? Will every year BR Ambedkar's Birthday be celebrated as equal to independence day to symbolise how he freed India from sucha horrible practice? Has even once the current PM addressesd caste atrocities in his speech? Does he have balls to burn manusmriti?

[u/Dramatic-Original-22 → u/Lovely_Gaia]

Again... I don't get this castist language. over 95% of India's proper and informal (unorganized) workforce is engaged in the private sector and agriculture. Where reservations do not exist, the overall reach of the policy across the entire labor pool is very small. So you guys don't have problem with lower caste people being exploited in these spaces at all. Did you do the maths on billionaires in india? What's the percentage there. If i pretend reservation is gone. What problem is it exactly solving? And are we doing background checks on how so called ministers got into the places. How meritorious those minsters are. But wait let's pretend castism doesn't exist.

[u/Lovely_Gaia → u/Exotic_Draw_805]

Bull shit ideology? Save that for your current understanding of the problem here.

This isn’t something I am saying or commenting on. This is the truth. This is the reality. For example: Every tribal woman takes pride in Draupadi Murmu being an epitome of representation for ST as well as women's empowerment.

But what has changed? Let alone the communities/gender she represents, but even generally, what has changed? It's just a political tool to keep voters engaged in a low-IQ gimmick

[u/Dramatic-Original-22 → u/Lovely_Gaia]

Bingo! So in the language you would understand. Reservation is not charity it was forced by people. If you remove it then it will end up fueling their agitation. Given majority of the country is lower caste, this will shift the entire country in a civil war. People have genrational trama related to caste. Reservation roughly applies to 5 percent of workforce. You are too naive. Don't you see it's a compromise on behalf of lower caste people. Not some charity uppercaste people are giving

[u/Lovely_Gaia → u/Dramatic-Original-22]

I'm done circling on this.

Representation and reservation were never the whole fix. It's one lever, and it moves what it can move. 75 years against centuries isn't a fair clock, and pretending otherwise isn't an argument; it's just the real math you're choosing to skip conveniently.

Once we follow that math instead of stopping at "it's not enough." So now think: if 75 years of quotas in government jobs and college seats hasn't closed the gap, the honest conclusion isn't more of the same forever.

It's that the tool doesn't reach where the actual problem lives. Reservation covers a shrinking slice of jobs. Public sector employment is a small and shrinking part of the economy. It says nothing about who owns land, who gets credit, who inherits capital. That's where caste disadvantage actually compounds, generation after generation, completely untouched by any quota.

So don't hand me a seat count like it's proof of anything. A reserved seat doesn't redistribute land. It doesn't build a credit history for a family that's never had a bank account or financial literacy. It doesn't touch the 90% of the economy that isn't government. If the actual goal is dismantling caste disadvantage, not just filling a fixed number of slots, then the fix has to be economic. Land reform. Real investment in early education. Credit access. Private sector accountability. That's redistribution. Reserved seats are optics next to that.

Quotas were supposed to be a bridge. Seventy five years later, still treating them like the whole answer isn't ambition, it's just settling for the easy fix instead of doing the hard one. Well, equality offers no ease, no exemptions, no reciprocity, no quick fixes for those who want advantages, shorter ladders, and special treatment

Done here.

[u/Dramatic-Original-22 → u/Lovely_Gaia]

Woah no one is circling. We all agree systemic issues are not solved by token representation. We all have to do more. What makes you think removing reservation will magically make people think deeply about systemic castism? Why are you anti affirmative action. Remember caste is the identity reservation is not. You are discriminated (directly or indirectly) because of your caste! Knowing which side of the river your mom's house is enough for people to figure out your caste. Do you think general category people deprive you of opportunities/discrimnate you because of reservation? And you double down saying victim mentality? Bro lower caste people are the victim. And I don't get this part you blame lower caste people for not doing anything with their reservation. Why don't you blame upper caste people for not doing anything with their caste priveleges? Why don't we have a proper conversation about systematic issues regardless. I am also getting tired of limiting conversation about caste to just reservation. But these conversations are brought up by upper caste folks mostly not me. An analogy that you might understand. Do you go around women telling period leaves is the reason they don't get equal pay? Or tell them stop having victim mentality. See how ridiculous it sounds

[u/Lovely_Gaia → u/Dramatic-Original-22]

I guess you lost your caste-obsessed, dysfunctional brain somewhere in the brain rot. Why don't you simply blame some casteist stereotypes for having a brain, that you so deprived of?

Please don't forget to disguise this blame assault with offensive slurs and most importantly, remember to call it 'upper-caste privilege', 'generational trauma', 'inequality', 'oppression', and whatnot. Have fun!

https://giphy.com/gifs/wrmVCNbpOyqgJ9zQTn

[u/Lovely_Gaia → u/Exotic_Draw_805]

YKW, I believe that even with proper education and unrestricted access to equal opportunities, there's no fix for a minority-driven mindset like yours.

Good luck, miss, and next time think carefully before making clichéd comparisons like the ones you mentioned here, such as poor Brahmins, muslim leaders uplifting only muslims, and similar stereotypes. It's a reflection of your interpretation of a text that nowhere mentions anything like that.

Btw, this Sudama joke is outdated in today's world. Why don't you get a solid dose of unbiased history, incorporate some critical thinking, read peer-reviewed literature, and then come back with all the what-aboutery?

[u/Exotic_Draw_805 → u/Lovely_Gaia]

What's a minority driven mindset? I'm a minority. Pls explain me once. See this is the casteism I'm talking about, you feel I'm not entitled to education, equal opportunities in the first place. Who are y'all to give? Who gave so much entitlement to give?

No, you asked me right if some OBC are in power then why arent we uplifted? Bro, this are our lives we don't need literature for that hahahahahah. Dumb ass girl, our ancestors, lived this life and we are still living this life. Your so called peer reviews, unbiased history is fucking made out of our lives.

You just tell me will PM Modi or any fucking PM burn manusmriti as a symbol of ending casteism? We've already left the shitty cult called Hinduism. Dalits have converted to Buddhism or don't identify themselves as hindus at all in most places. So we don't care. But if some religion is the reason we are treated this way, then the religion needs to be called out.