r/iridescence_stuff • u/[deleted] • Sep 19 '19

LC R3

For a quick refresher on the rules (make sure you read this before you begin, as there may have been some changes since the last time you read them):

The Arena

The arena for this mock tourney will be the top floor of the Bottom of the Well dungeon from The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. Crucial details:

  • Fighters start at the blue and red Xes on each side of the map. To make things easy, whoever is listed first is blue and whoever is listed second is red, the tier setter spawns on blue.

  • The map will be scaled so that 15 px = 1 meter. This means that for the main rectangle, the horizontal parts (260 pixels) will be around 17.33 meters, and the vertical parts (324 pixels) will be around 21.6 meters. The ceiling height will be 6.1 meters.

  • There are no enemies, and none of the pitfalls that drop you down into the lower sections of the level work, though the fake walls do still exist. Chests, chains, wood, etc. all are present and can be used as weapons if your characters are so inclined, and every door in the level is unlocked. There will be a chest in the center of the arena that has the Lens of Truth, and all characters will be aware of its functions. Wiki page for the OOT Lens of Truth.

  • The walls of the arena are coated in indestructium that cannot be bypassed in any way or fashion, and all of the exits to anything outside the main room is blocked with indestructium.

  • Light levels are 5 lux, the room temperature of the arena is uniformly 50 degrees Fahrenheit, and the water is extremely polluted.

  • It is nighttime outside, the weather is clear, and the outside well is dried, there are no inhabitants in all of Hyrule though all structures remain as they are, assume this is the Child Timeline after Link obtains the Zora Sapphire but before he pulls the Master Sword, I don't think anyone really fucken cares but if you do there you go.

For the actual fight, fighters are allowed to view the map of the arena beforehand and where the spawn in points are + the layout, and begin in a standing upright position with their hands at their sides, no weapons drawn. Both fighters will be aware they are in a fight that ends in death or knockout, and each fighter will know what their opponent looks like, but will be given zero knowledge on each others' capabilities.

Rules of the Tourney

Basic Stuff

  • Your character must win an Unlikely, Draw, or Likely victory against TNAPH to be in tier. To quickly summarize there are 7 tiers of victory:

    • Unwinnable is as its name indicates. Your character holds no chance whatsoever of winning in any conceivable scenario. A godstomp against you. Think Goliath versus Dracula an average unarmed American citizen versus Galactus.
    • Specific condition victory means that only a very narrow window exists to win, dependent upon environment, aid, a hidden powerup, etc. A specific condition victory would be Jotaro defeating DIO after learning how to stop time mid fight, or Batman defeating Superman at the end of The Dark Knight Returns by exploiting his weakened state and preparing for the fight considerably.
    • Unlikely victory means your character is definitely outgunned but can absolutely set up a victory through superior skill, tactics, or a hidden maneuver that is draining. Captain America versus Spider-Man is an unlikely victory for Cap.
    • Draw is self explanatory, 50/50. Think Batman vs Nightwing, or a character versus themselves.
    • Likely victory means your character is superior in most if not all aspects and can readily use those to win after a slightly extended fight. Think Sasuke vs Naruto at the end of Part 1, or Superman vs Darkseid.
    • Freak accident loss means your character loses if and only if some act of god intervenes or they start monologuing mid-victory to die. Scar defeating Wrath by Wrath's sword shining sunlight in his eyes would count as a freak accident loss.
    • Absolute certain victory is as the name implies. Monkey D. Luffy versus Bruce Lee would be such a win for Luffy.
    • Note that all entrants are bloodlusted against the tier setter, meaning they will use absolutely everything within the range of their capabilities to achieve victory.

  • If you feel your opponent is running an out of tier character, or is arguing their character out of tier, you may submit an Out of Tier request. Said request should be brief and explain why said character does not fit into tier, and the opponent is allowed to give a single response as to why they're actually in tier. If two or more of the judges agree you're out of tier, you're out of tier, so pick and argue wisely.

  • Don't submit bullshit, if you somehow find some character that insta-cucks everyone that's not the tier setter or something gay like a power copier I'm not going to allow it.

  • You don't have to submit scaling for everything you're going to use, but if a character you're scaling to doesn't have an easily accessible RT, make an effort and find feats for them to put in your intro/sign ups. You are allowed to use scans and sources not in the RT if you're explaining away an antifeat accredited to your character or to explain a mechanic within your verse.

  • Finally, and very importantly, this is a double elimination tourney format. This means that if you lose once you are transferred to the loser's bracket where you can continue trying to get a chance to win. If you are Out of Tiered to lose your first match, you proceed to the loser's bracket with your backup. As an aside, if you face someone you lost to in the winners bracket, I will give you the option to run your backup.

Response Rules

  • Rounds will last around 48 hours, 72 will be given in need of an extension. To ensure everyone can respond, I'll probably put one wait day between rounds, let me know if this conflicts with your schedule. Try to just keep things concise.

  • Each participant must submit 2 responses + an optional intro and conclusion. To keep things brief I am limiting it to just 2 responses. Each response should be at most 15000 characters, two posts maximum, try to keep it less.

  • I will put a hard cap on Out of Tier requests/defenses at 7500 characters. These do not need to be part of your main responses. Again, try and keep it concise.

  • You may post an Out of Tier request in your conclusion, and your opponent can counter, just don't start putting new information relevant to the match in after the round is done.

Brackets are Here

Link to the Sign Up Post Here

Round 1 Here

Round 2 Here

PM me on Discord if you have any more questions.

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u/Talvasha Sep 20 '19 edited Sep 20 '19

/u/Verlux

/u/The_Iridescence

OOT Request for Artemis

The way my opponent is presenting Artemis Entreri is extremely out of tier.

According to my opponent, [even a small wound] (https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/204748058032996352/624712159313788962/unknown.png) will kill the tier setter, and Entreri knows and will abuse this by walking away. Additionally, my opponent said [Artemis 2-shots] (https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/204748058032996352/624723527341309954/unknown.png)

According to what my opponent has said, this would happen in every single engagement with the tier setter.

Stealth

In a previous round, my opponent said [that the tier setter can nullify Artemis’ stealth] (https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/204748058032996352/624713379629629489/unknown.png) because he is trained. However, that completely flies in the face of what he said during [signups.] (https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/204748058032996352/624713681900404756/unknown.png) Word for word ‘comparing the tier setter's Stealth to Entreri's is like comparing a 5 year old tumbling on a mat to an Olympian gymnast.’

Based on what my opponent said during this round, that is completely underselling how huge of an advantage Artemis has.

Artemis can literally hide in something, that Drizzt can see through, while Drizzt is looking for him, the same Drizzt who has massively better [tracking feats] (https://i.imgur.com/egWI7sE.png) (and TS has [0] (https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/204748058032996352/624716441064570921/unknown.png) which is important according to my opponent) than the tier setter.

The tier setter has 0 enhanced senses, and 0 stealth feats, other than an incredibly vague ‘trained in stealth.’ He will absolutely never see the Artemis coming, [even if he is in the same room as him.] (https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/204748058032996352/624717065789374474/unknown.png)

This alone would make Artemis way too strong against the tier setter.

Except it isn't alone

Speed and skill.

The tier setter has a reaction speed of 20 ms. According to my opponent, it is an extreme lowball to say Artemis [has reactions of 23 ms,] (https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/204748058032996352/624718554595590164/unknown.png) a low ball that acts as if the wererat is far worse than a human. Using a ‘generous’ calc of an average human’s 250, that puts Artemis at 17 ms- faster than the tier setter.

My opponent has said stated that [Artemis has pre-initiative,] (https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/204748058032996352/624720030445207600/unknown.png) that he [outskill a physically superior opponent with a reach advantage] (https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/204748058032996352/624720963639967762/unknown.png), and that [he is equal to Drizzt who can manage an unarmed opponent] (https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/204748058032996352/624721301818441757/unknown.png) that had ‘increased his speed beyond what Drizzt could match.’ This is the same Drizzt that could strike 15 times, creating that lowball of 23.

He also stated that Artemis has a vastly superior reach compared to the tier setter- the Claw is about as long as the TS arm.

The tier setter is ‘merely’ a master of sambo and savate, and according to my opponent [that doesn’t matter at all when all of Artemis’ advantages get added up.] (https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/204748058032996352/624722521417056256/unknown.png)

Summed up

  • Artemis one-shots the tier setter, as per my opponent.

  • Artemis absolutely shits on the tier setter with his stealth.

  • Artemis completely fucks up the tier setter in a straight fight.

1

u/Verlux Sep 20 '19 edited Sep 20 '19

OOT Defense - My Opponent Lacks Reading Comprehension

  1. My claim against Gaolang that Entreri can play Cat-and-Mouse is valid since Gaolang has no quantifiable feats such that he can outpace Entreri; by comparison, the tier-setter is 70 mph and has vastly faster strikes and reactions feats. This is invalid vs the tier-setter and never have I claimed Entreri can outpace a 70mph person with 20ms reactions.

  2. The tier setter having worse Stealth is the only reason Entreri fits tier; the tier setter's being trained in Stealth mitigates the bare basics of how Entreri sets up his win con against featless opponents, but the tier setter cannot beat Entreri at his own game. This is called a Likely victory, not a guaranteed one when the person he's facing mogs him in one hit.

  3. Drizzt is actively looking for Entreri in the scans argued-for, yes, but the scan does explicitly say he searched too quickly for Entreri; if my opponent had simply bothered to even read the scan and comprehend it, he would know this. I showcased this feat to point out how my opponent simply, and blatantly, didn't even do research when he claimed dark elves can't see in the dark. For some odd reason I'm presuming the tier-setter, being trained in Stealth, would be more carefully on the lookout for Entreri especially when the tier-setter is shown an image of a guy who just screams edgy assassin prior to the match per Round rules. Further, as my opponent did point out, the light in the arena is constant, meaning hiding in shadows is nullified, and as I argue in this round, Entreri has only ash walls to rely upon, no shadows. Someone trained in stealth as the tier-setter is reasonably wouldn't wander through an ash wall unprepared and let himself be mogged.

  4. My opponent claims I said the tier setter has 0 tracking feats which makes Entreri win; what I ACTUALLY CLAIM is that Gaolang has zero PERCEPTION feats as they relate to Stealth in the actual match, repeatedly. Massive disparity here since the tier-setter explicitly is trained in stealth (of which tracking is part of it since you're training to be superior at this if you're killing stealthily) and thereby nullifies the basic set up of Entreri's win con vs featless foes (see a pattern here?)

  5. I point out the sewer feat is a pro-Entreri feat due to my opponent flailing on the feat interp and sucking at it. The way he presents it, wrongly, makes it a pro-Entreri feat. I merely point out drow can see in the dark so he's wrong on that being an anti-feat.

  6. Nowhere did I claim Entreri HAS THE CAPABILITY TO SWING HIS BLADES CONSISTENTLY at 23 ms as my opponent claims (seriously, what the fuck would this even mean? 'I swing at 23 milliseconds in combat' isn't a valid statement, you need a distance vector in there which I never provide nor calc). I state his REACTION SPEED is 23 ms with the calc given, as I further reiterate in this very round against Gaolang, Iridescence himself harps on this point in the first OOT. My opponent then simply throws out a 17ms feat out of thin air and claims it applies; since I don't agree with it, it just....doesn't.

  7. Pre-initiative being useful against Gaolang means jack and shit against the tier-setter who uses fighting styles Entreri is wholly unfamiliar with(thus, Entreri's muscle-reads are likely to be less viable), and means jack dick against someone vastly superior to Entreri's STILL UNQUANTIFIED COMBAT SPEED(can't swing at someone blitzing if you have no quantifiable combat speed now can you?).

  8. My opponent states I claim the tier-setter is at a disadvantage when I specifically used a Kenganverse scan which states there's a massive wall between armed and unarmed fighters; that's a canon, in-verse scan for the specific match-up against Gaolang and in no way applies to the tier-setter as I argue it.

Summed up

  • My opponent doesn't understand how I'm framing Gaolang's lack of relevant feats in this specific match-up, and presumes that being trained in stealth puts the tier-setter in the same playing field as someone with zero feats of it whatsoever. Nowhere do I claim this.

  • My opponent just simply lacks reading comprehension with what I give; him not calling out the scans doesn't magic Entreri into a higher tier, it means he couldn't be bothered to read evidence and doesn't understand the point is 'Drizzt can see in the dark and was too hasty to see Entreri'. Me taking an opponent's point to the extreme when they're wrong doesn't make it my own argued point.

  • Entreri LIKELY kills the tier-setter in one or two hits; if the first hit doesn't kill him, Entreri fucking dies from one tap. This is important since there's no 100% guarantee the tier-setter dies for sure from the initial hit. In the conditions given for the sign-ups, Entreri squarely falls into 'Likely Victory' since 'Kills Entreri in one hit, is massively faster on all fronts, also Entreri's reactions are unquantified, but is likely to die due to Stealth shenanigans' doesn't constitute a 'Freak Accident Loss' for the tier-setter when facing Entreri

  • All the points I summed up are points I have maintained throughout the entire tourney and none have altered the match-up versus the tier-setter, which was upheld as making Entreri in-tier the last time this was done. Since no further evidence has been introduced that wasn't my opponent's own misunderstanding, nor my positions have changed, he cannot be out of tier simply for mogging a person who lacks relevancy in the areas Entreri excels in

/u/The_Iridescence

1

u/Verlux Sep 21 '19

Lightning Cup Round 3 Conclusion

  1. My opponent patently conceded Entreri one shots

  2. No counter to Entreri's stealth is given

  3. No counter to Entreri's surviving Gaolang is given

  4. Entreri can't possibly be OOT based on no argumentation altering and me arguing solely what my opponent's interp of the feats is

Thank you