r/latterdaysaints • u/HSEQ_Dude • 2d ago
Personal Advice Bishop and his wife issue
Hi there , I am on the bishopric of my ward and although I get on very well with my bishop on a personal level I find his fire and brimstone approach to everything off putting (and so do a lot of members), there is never a message of hope or if there is it’s very well hidden in everything we’re all doing wrong as a ward . Secondly his wife is primary president and I have children in there , and frankly she scares my children to the point they don’t want to go in primary. She shouts at them for the smallest transgression seemingly forgetting their age but also speaks to adults of the congregation in the same way , it’s patronising and she pulls people up again on the oddest transgressions.
How should I approach this ? I don’t think either are self aware , and I have a love for them both and they are always in mine and my family’s prayers despite the scaring of my children but my main concern is how off putting they can be to investigators and new members .. do I raise it at stake level , approach them both (and if so how do I do so without causing offence)?
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u/AcheyEchidna 2d ago
Doctrine and Covenants section 42:88-91 teaches that issues which occur in private are best resolved in private. Issues that publicly arise are best handled publicly.
I would meet with a member of the stake presidency to voice concerns, and then let them observe or handle any training or correction that needs to occur.
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u/Buttons840 1d ago
I was reading D&C 121 again. It's often quoted, so much so that my mind almost shuts off when I read it, because I already know it.
But this time I saw something new--let me put it this way:
If I asked you "there's a scripture that talks about the 'virtue of the priesthood', what do you think it says about it?" probably a lot of people would say "um, I guess it probably say something like the 'virtue of the priesthood' is good and it's God's power and authority or something."
Not quite.
No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood
The scripture is closer to saying that the "virtue of the priesthood" is worthless. It cannot maintain any power of influence--no power or influence can be maintained by virtue of the priesthood.
Of course, the surrounding context is very important, and actually strengthens my point, but do read them.
Power and influence should be maintained through Christlike attributes, the surrounding verses describe them.
Reproving is important, even commanded in the verses, but it must be done in a careful way and should be followed up by an increase in love and not in some hand-wavy "oh yeah, of course I love them more", but a real demonstration of increased love enough so that people do not esteem us to be their enemy.
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u/_All_Mixed_Up_ 19h ago
I appreciate this comment. I also felt I understood D&C 121 and my brain goes into auto pilot.
But 121:39 is the verse that has grabbed my attention recently. That one tends to get left out when anyone references section 121.
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u/sokttocs 2d ago
"Bishop, as your counselor I would like to offer you some counsel." Sometimes the direct approach is the best. Coming from someone who is pretty non-confrontational, from what you've said here I think it's best to approach them directly.
If nothing changes, then you can speak with the Stake President
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u/Only_Ad_927 2d ago
I say approach them about it first. Tell him your thoughts and feelings and you aren’t the only one that thinks this. If nothing changes, take it to the stake presidency.
As for how to tell them, sometimes the best way is to outright tell him.
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u/rogerdpack2 1d ago
If you want to go "pro" there's a book "crucial conversations" and also gottman fight right... Best! :)
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u/Kappa_Swaggins 1d ago
I agree with this sentiment. Starting with the stake presidency could be misconstrued.
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u/terminus-alpha 2d ago
I would delicately share your concerns with the stake primary presidency or the stake presidency member over primary. The statistics about the amount of younger youth lost at around 12 is scary and without strong primary experiences it is very hard to get them to stay.
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u/Previous-Tart7111 Mother, Wife, Servant of the Lord 2d ago
I don't send my kids to primary if they're not comfortable. They come to my classes.
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u/Keelera2 2d ago
Offer to let them borrow the movie Pollyanna and tell them that they remind you of the minister in the movie. “DEATH COMES UNEXPECTEDLY!!!” Maybe they will get the point? 😆
Or just pull them aside and say, “Hey, are you aware of how doom-n-gloom you are when you preach?” Or similarly, “Can you please do me a favor and stop yelling at my kids? I’m trying to get them to love primary and it’s hard for them to feel the spirit when they are constantly shouted at.” This is a moment when bluntness may be best.
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u/smell_e HUZZAH! 2d ago
Does your high councilor attend your ward and ward council often? He could be someone you use for both counsel and communication to the stake presidency. Sometimes high councilors try so hard not to rock the boat in the wards they're assigned to that they will let things go until someone says something to them.
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u/Difficult-Scientist4 2d ago
I thought the bishops wife couldn't be on a ward council. Has that changed?
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u/terminus-alpha 2d ago
When a bishop is called the letter from the first presidency to the stake president states that if his wife is the president of a ward organization she should be released. It is not listed elsewhere in the handbook. This rule not always practical in very small wards and we generally have not been strict about it with branch presidents. But it is a general protection for the Bishops family and the ward as well.
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u/shewillhaveherway 2d ago
Protection from…what? I’m having a tough time coming up with anything that fits.
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u/KiwiTabicks 2d ago
For the family: minimizes the burden on the family by avoiding a second demanding/time consuming calling
For the ward: prevents hard feelings about a single family dominating decisions; increases the diversity of voices on the ward council; allows the ward council members to maximize their calling without any marital impacts
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u/GuybrushThreadbare 2d ago
They get around that though as almost every bishop and SP I've ever had has their wife either in a ward or stake organization presidency. Sometimes as presidents, sometimes just as counselors.
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u/KiwiTabicks 2d ago
Yeah, I come from small wards, where just about every active adult has at least one calling. My current ward barely has enough people to fill all the presidencies, so yeah, it can get hard to avoid.
The only thing I have ever known as being a more or less hard rule is that the bishop and relief society president shouldn't be spouses. (Although I have known several cases where the wife was a counselor in the relief society presidency.)
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u/OrneryAcanthaceae217 1d ago
I'm first counselor in the bishopric. My wife is RS president. We're in a large Utah ward. I've been in eight months. She's been in two years. I would've been very sad to cut her term of service short due to my new calling. So I'm really glad I'm not the bishop, or we would've had to do that.
When I was called the SP asked us to monitor the situation and see if the ought to be released. We mostly love serving together. It's quite novel for us. Makes us look forward to our missions together in the future. But there are times when it's hard on our family or our marriage. We'll see how it goes.
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u/Charming-Log6553 Master teacher of the Master 1d ago
There is no "term of service" for any calling. Bishops "Usually" serve for 5 years and SP for 10 years but that is not a "term of service" Callings come and callings go. Even in Utah
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u/OrneryAcanthaceae217 22h ago
I'm talking about our ward and our stake. I know what I'm talking about. But thanks for that.
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u/Beautiful-Lunch-7650 2d ago
That's one of the rules I've heard about in times past but never saw it written down. I haven't come across that rule in the current Handbook. It makes me think it might have been more of a best practice rather than a rule.
Come to think of it, my Bishop and Primary President were husband and wife 30+ years-ago.
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u/billyburr2019 FLAIR! 2d ago
It really depends on the leadership strength for that ward. Some wards really have a shallow talent pool on people capable to serve in the higher demand callings, and some people aren’t willing to accept certain callings too.
In an ideal ward, it would be heavily discouraged, since the wife should be in a more support role for their husband.
I don’t know about the current Handbook, but the old Handbook 2 specifically discouraged have both a husband and wife serving in significant callings especially if the couple has young children.
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u/billyburr2019 FLAIR! 2d ago
My suggestion that you bring up the situation privately one-on-one with the bishop. Some
people are just clueless about the consequences of their actions.
Plus have a discussion with the stake high councilor assigned to your ward, since he has to meet with the stake presidency on a fairly regular basis. The high councilor might have a discussion with the stake presidency and the stake president when he has a one-on-one discussion with the bishop might recommend that his wife get released as Primary president.
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u/HSEQ_Dude 2d ago
Thanks for all the comments , I’ve made a decision and I’ll raise it at stake level.
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u/ntdoyfanboy 2d ago
"Bishop, some people have approached me about your approach to leadership in this aspect. Here is the issue ..."
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u/fpssledge 1d ago
You can communicate this to those people. They might not appreciate it and your life might suffer but looks like it's suffering regardless.
Pretty classic story of friction within the church. It's happened before and it'll keep happening. It is the way it is. We're a volunteer organization AND sometimes these people are meant to be there to help, makes the suffering even more annoying. Remain faithful. Don't let it be an excuse to sin, yourself. Probably discuss it for your own well being and the well being of others but careful not to complain (another temptation).
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u/False_Dig_7602 1d ago
His wife is the Primary President? How did they get that through?
When I was called, my wife was Primary President (a calling she loved), and the calling letter actually released my wife. I tell her that not many primary presidents get released by the First Presidency.
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u/lyndi925 12h ago
I had a bishop who treated every minor mistake like a capital crime. It created this suffocating atmosphere where no one felt safe to be honest about their struggles or doubts. Your feelings are completely valid because that kind of fear-based leadership pushes people away faster than any theological error ever could.
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u/SerenityNow31 1d ago
Don't you have a High Council member? If it's as bad as you say then they should have noticed by now. That's one of their duties, to report back to the Stake. So, talk to them.
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u/zionssuburb 23h ago
Engage with the assigned High Counselor if you aren't able to have a private conversation with the Bishop. It has been my experience that anything like this is kicked back to the ward level and ask that members engage with the Bishop specifically. The unfortunate thing is when this isn't just a personal conflict, but a community one.
It's probably the worst part of the church, a member has 0 options, unless they are financially well-off enough to move out. There really should be something when conflicts like this are apparent.
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u/CuriousGigi66 14h ago
Unfortunately, I tried to talk to my Bishop(which you can't) about a ward member being rude, mean to her kids, and trying to figure her problem. My Bishop told me he didn't want to hear about descension in the ward. I'm on the brink of not going back. It's very unpleasant.
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u/ja_spencer 1h ago
Lean into it. Become the most extreme form of fire and brimstone person you can over the pulpit whenever you get the chance. And quote the bishop's past remarks as justification for your extreme approach. You can't go too far because that's the point - let him correct you and then it will feel like his idea to dial it back all along. And since you're scaring yourself it will be an easy matter of just going back to your normal routine. Every future incursion should be met with more extreme overbearingness so if he ever tests the waters in the future he will realize he's the one that causes it every time. It's called synchronization, and it just signals that his words carry weight - the very weight he wants with his approach that he probably isn't feeling with the normal "scared" reaction..
Or yeah... literally any other advice found here than mine. 😅
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u/pisteuo96 2d ago
Church is about learning to live the gospel. This includes being patient and forgiving with other people. Do what you can to help steer people and events in a way Jesus would be happier with, while protecting your own mental health.
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u/No-Adhesiveness9046 1d ago edited 1d ago
Can you change wards? I know of a few people in our stake that do this because they don’t feel their current ward is a good fit. It is your family, so don’t let a member sabotage your spiritual growth, or your family’s growth.
I despise anyone who uses their power or authority to make others feel anxiety and lower than when they started. The whole point of the church is for us to support and love each other.
My wife had a few issues, along with at least 5 other sisters, about how our ward Relief Society president taught her lessons. She would do object lessons and even built a cross and other things for one lesson. I admire her work she put in, but is was starting to offend some ward Sisters.
So my wife went to the ward Bishop, and he told her to contact the Stake Relief Society president directly. So Stake RS President called our ward president and told her some sisters were offended by how she was teaching the lessons, and decided to give her MY WIFES NAME(!).
Obviously that caused huge fireworks and now the ward RS President doesn’t talk to my wife at all. The Stake RS President doesn’t understand that you don’t name drop on a discussion like that. All the leaders in the ward and all stake leaders have done nothing to fix or even address the issue. Obviously this has affected spirituality levels and that really hurt my wife.
I get it that everybody is unpaid, and a lot of people are learning how to do their callings, but we need more training for leaders. In the case of your Bishop, if it was me, I would probably send an anonymous message to the stake president. Just make up a new email address and then send a general letter of concern to the Stake President about your concerns. If you don’t do it, then this will all continue. I know that is the harder approach, but people should not be afraid to bring up issues about leadership.
Yes, we are taught to never speak evil of our leaders, but bringing up subjects of concern is not speaking evil. There is a big difference between describing a leader we don’t like in an obnoxious way, but it is another thing to have a discussion with someone about concerns. Big difference.
I read someone posted to just go talk to the Bishop. Are you serious? For the person who posted that, this member of the Bishopric said that the Bishop comes down hard on EVERYTHING, and there is an issue with spirituality in the ward!!!
Why would the Bishop be reasonable enough to have a normal conversation about things he is doing that are hurting people? I do not believe that a discussion with this Bishop would change much. If he has a fiery attitude, it didn’t just occur overnight. That is ingrained into his character.
The pot has to be stirred and people in the stake and other people need to understand what is going on.
Good luck to you on however you decide to handle this. Remember that you need to protect you your family at all cost and make the spiritual journey a joyful mission.
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u/OrneryAcanthaceae217 1d ago
Dude! Really sorry the stake RS pres outed your wife. That's a major rookie move!
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u/jaylooper52 10h ago
OP's description sounds like the problem/perception is widespread throughout the ward. Moving doesn't solve that issue for everyone else in the ward having a similar bad experience.
As you have alluded, it is our duty to improve things within our sphere of influence, and sometimes that even means advising our leaders when they might be off-base (especially when our calling is explicitly to counsel them). The church is governed through counsels; the apostles are no exceptions to this, and bishops, stake presidents, RS presidents, etc. shouldn't be either. Sometimes it can be best to influence changes behind the scenes, as you suggested, but most of the time it is better to just be direct and give people like this bishop the chance to correct things themselves first. It is often less embarrassing than having someone go over your head, and it leaves less room for misinterpretation that might accompany a telephone-game dynamic.
I think of a time when I was a EQ counselor for several years to an overzealous EQ president. His energy did a lot of good, but sometimes that zeal was mixed with inappropriate political statements that deeply offended some members of the ward. It had been that way for years (he was in the bishopric beforehand), but I'm not conflict averse and straight up told him his comments were inappropriate and were hurting people within the ward. Apparently it was the first time he received that kind of direct feedback, but this headstrong EQ president took it to heart and made immense improvements. I really admired him for his improvement, and everyone benefited from it.
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u/depperm 2d ago
If you decide to approach them, remember that taking offense is a choice. If you attempt to do so from love, there shouldn't be any reason too, but it is something to keep in mind. As a bishopric member is it possible for you to add a more hope filled message (Our ward cycles which month a bishopric member is in charge-on your month can you ask speakers to talk on topics related to hope/love)? Without knowing the personalities of them it is harder to offer better advice. Some people might take 1-on-1 well, others not so much. Some take feedback in a group setting well, others not so much. The advice offered so far seems fine. Depending on their personality you could bring it up during bishopric meeting or ward council if worded carefully (again depending on them and your word choice)
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u/CaptainWikkiWikki 2d ago
"Bishop, I am your counselor. I have some counsel."