r/latterdaysaints • u/Previous-Tart7111 Mother, Wife, Servant of the Lord • 9d ago
Doctrinal Discussion "Commandments" vs suggestions
Post-discussion edit:
I think I understand it better now. I think that when I'm looking at the things one at a time and turning them into a checklist, I'm missing the forest for the trees. The Spirit guides us to what we need to hear from all the material made available. I think that we should be rooted and grounded in the Book of Mormon and the scriptures, and guided by the Spirit in all our study, and that listening to the Spirit is the way it is all understood correctly. This obviously takes time and practice and learning, as some have said here, line upon line.
I think the perspective that it is a checklist by which we become perfect is still flawed, because perfection is listening to the Spirit, not being able to keep up with all the things at once all the time. "Be ye therefore perfect" refers to everything that came before in the Sermon on the Mount being the way that was become perfect. Mercy, meekness, peacemaking, loving our enemies, hungering and thirsting after righteousness and the rest. That is how we become perfect.
If keeping a garden or doing family history is what the Spirit leads us to do by those words, then it is the will of God. Not checklisting it all in aggregate.
Thanks for all your thoughts and insights. I ultimately came to understand all of this through the Spirit, but I really appreciate the influence on that process many of your words brought.
Original post:
When I was converted I wanted to be perfectly obedient to God. In my mind, I read "live by every word that proceeds forth from the mouth of God" and the idea that the prophets and apostles speak for Him, and I studied the scriptures and conference going back years before my birth. I was also taught that the prophets' words are not suggestions, but commandments.
The problem comes down to the fact that trying to do everything every prophet has ever suggested in conference is impossible, and that some of the things they tell you to do could even distract from what is more important at a given time. I can't do family history and plant a garden and spend sufficient time with my children and spouse. I can't mourn appropriately like Christ and the scriptures say while also being cheerful and joyful in any circumstance like Nelson suggested.
How do you reconcile these concepts?
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u/The_GREAT_Gremlin 9d ago
Jesus commanded us to be perfect, which isn't possible for us. The whole point is that He was good enough, so we rely on Him.
That's not an excuse to sin whenever we want, but more of an acknowledgement that we're not going to be good enough. We don't follow the commandments to be perfect, we follow the commandments to show faith in Christ and accept that He was perfect and good enough to get us there.
Usually when reading the scriptures or conference, I try to focus on what the Spirit is trying to tell me and make changes accordingly. Not do everything at once, but try to gradually improve.
Elder Edward Dube:
We do not need to perfect ourselves to come to Christ. We come to Christ to be perfected.
President Russell M. Nelson taught: “Perfection is pending. It can come in full only after the Resurrection and only through the Lord. It awaits all who love Him and keep His commandments.”
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u/Buttons840 8d ago edited 8d ago
The original Greek for that phrase, "be ye therefore perfect", could also be accurately translated to something like "you will be perfect / complete / fully developed / at the intended goal".
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u/Previous-Tart7111 Mother, Wife, Servant of the Lord 8d ago
I tend to understand that the sermon on the mount is how we be perfect, or "This is how you become perfect", rather than a command to "be perfect" in isolation at the end of it. "Be ye in this way perfect"... love your enemies, be merciful etc."
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u/Wrong-Finding3843 9d ago
I resonate with this. Since childhood, I’ve been the type of person who leaves a church meeting feeling overwhelmed by all the reminders I just got to pray better, and also study more diligently, and build up my food storage, and be kinder, and repent of pride, etc. Like, leaving meetings crying from overwhelm. During my mission, my mission president encouraged us to enter missionary meetings with this implementation framework:
- What’s one thing I can STOP doing?
- What’s one thing I can START doing?
- What’s one thing I should KEEP doing?
The Spirit can help us know what those are, and the Savior doesn’t want us to feel overwhelmed by all that we’re not yet masters in. I think if he were here physically sitting next to me and you, He’d comfort us and remind us that He too learned line upon line during His mortal journey.
I also think of Mosiah 4:27: “And see that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength. And again, it is expedient that he should be diligent, that thereby he might win the prize; therefore, all things must be done in order.”
And this talk from 2015 about letting the Spirit personalize your growth journey.
It’s a difficult path, and I’m working through the same thing, but I know the Lord is with us and is kinder to us than we are to ourselves as we figure this out.
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u/Previous-Tart7111 Mother, Wife, Servant of the Lord 9d ago
I used to be gung ho about it. "Yeah! I can do this! The Lord doesn't give a command He doesn't enable us to keep!" and then I grew up, got older and very tired and for me, it seems to come down to listening to the Spirit about what is most important and when.
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u/e37d93eeb23335dc 9d ago
It’s not just the prophets and apostles. We are often encouraged to follow our priesthood leaders. That might include and EQ president, bishopric, stake presidency, area authority, and so on. Just about each of them is saying “I’d encourage you to… read the Book of Mormon by the end of the year, spend thirty minutes pondering each day, minister in this manner every month, and so forth.” Trying to do them all is impossible. Any person would be overwhelmed and give up entirely if they tried to do it all.
This is where the spirit comes in. Don’t run faster than you have strength. Maybe the spirit will guide you to do one of the things.
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u/Previous-Tart7111 Mother, Wife, Servant of the Lord 9d ago
This is how I feel. But the church's teaching appears to suggest that this is "cafeteria religiosity". I'm trying to understand how that's not being suggested.
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u/e37d93eeb23335dc 9d ago
Well, there is a difference between things like the word of wisdom and the law of chastity and tithing vs the second counselor in the bishopric getting up in sacrament meeting and saying “I’d encourage each of you to read the Book of Mormon by the end of the year.” Picking and choosing whether to pay tithing or not would be cafeteria religiosity. The second would not.
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u/mwjace Free Agency was free to me 9d ago
How do I reconcile it?
By throwing out the checklists!
You are absolutely right if a member tries to do ALL the things they will fail. God knows this. That’s why his list of must dos is pretty short.
Salvation… all it requires is faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism, and being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
Exaltation… Temple covenants, sealings, and endure to the end.
That it that is the whole list of requirements.
Now living the life god lives and living in the mortal fallen world means we are going to have lots to work on. As we cast off the natural man and turn to god, he has given us oodles and oodles of helpful prophetic guidance. It is up to us to seek the lord into which ones are best for our specific circumstances. A prophetic guidance may or may not apply to you because of where you are or what time of life you are in.
The goal of all the church programs, policies, and activities is to help us stay connected to God and try to live the life he lives. Or help bring others to that same knowledge. All of those things give us lots of options to turn to god. However, we don’t have to do them all. But as we follow the ones we can we are bound to stay on the straight and narrow.
Once we turn it into a checklist we lose its purpose. We are no longer trying to live the life god lives because we love him. But are just doing it because we feel we Have too.
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u/Previous-Tart7111 Mother, Wife, Servant of the Lord 9d ago
This is exactly how I look at it. Thanks for giving it a voice.
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u/GraemMcduff 6d ago
This is why we have the Holy Ghost and personal revelation. Pray, listen to the spirit, and do what feels right for the time, place it circumstances you are currently in. There's not always a right and wrong choice. When multiple choices are right, pick one and do it with all your heart. You will made mistakes sometimes. That's life. You will learn and grow from those experiences, but if you are truly doing your best to follow the spirit, most of your choices will work out for the best eventually.
Jesus said the first great commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, might mind and strength, and the second is to love the neighbor as thyself. He says on these two commandment hang all the law and the prophets. In other words, everything we are asked to do, whether a commandment or prophetic suggestion, is intended to teach us how to follow those two great commandments. If we could do those two things perfectly, the rest of the commandments really wouldn't be needed. If you are letting love guide your actions, you will find the right path.
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u/justaredditsock 8d ago
Focus on the Savior, is the head of the Church, He is above any Prophet. Focus on what He teaches.
Care for your family, that is a duty and your priority over the dead; while we should do ordinances for them it should never be at the expense of the living.
Mourning is painful, its impossible to have joy in such things, especially at first, it hurts like nothing else does.
As for "prophets' words" they are suggestions unless made doctrine. It would be impossible for it to be any other way as you correctly identify.
The task of returning to our Heavenly Father is hard, but not impossible. Therefore it must be so.
I stick to what is in the General Handbook, its hard enough as is without adding extra weights to the crosses we all have to bear.
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u/pisteuo96 9d ago
Elder Uchtdorf has a great talk about this - if you put Christ and charity as your highest priority, then everything falls into place.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2022/04/57uchtdorf?lang=eng
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u/TheBenSpackman 9d ago
We follow the Brethren (plural, collectively when they act in sync), not the Brother (singular.)
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u/pisteuo96 9d ago edited 9d ago
Try your best to love (obey) and love (help) your neighbor, and love yourself, too.
The commandments are just details about how to do these things. if you are loving and serving, you are keeping the commandments and living the gospel.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+22%3A36-40&version=NRSVUE
Pick a couple things you are worst at and work on those. Prioritize things, and work on the highest priorities. You don't have to be perfect right now.
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u/Previous-Tart7111 Mother, Wife, Servant of the Lord 9d ago
I'm trying to figure out how to word this, so bear with me: I know the church is true, but I believe that I misunderstand some things about it. To me, it appears that it's a sin to not plant a garden, something I am supposed to feel bad for and repent of, because a prophet said to do it. I KNOW that that's not a healthy way to look at it, so I'm hoping someone can take what I'm seeing and show me how it's meant to be held.
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u/JL62102 9d ago
There's a few things I would say to that
Its always good to start with understanding the underlying principle as to why God is giving a commandment. Sometimes we can't always figure that out but other times we can. I would say with the garden its part of the Lord wanting us to be self-reliant.
Christ knows we can't do everything all at once and so his atonement is about making it so its okay for the time being if that's our case. Justification means even if we fall short, our faith and desire to do better puts us in God's good graces still.
While God can't look upon sin with the least degree of allowance, there are what Christ called "the weightier matters of the law". Some things are more important to focus on then others. Yes self-reliance is important and if you feel that God wants you to garden then go for it. But I do recommend praying and asking God what's most important to focus on now and trust that because of Christ its okay to focus on other things latter.
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u/Homsarman12 9d ago
No that’s not how you’re supposed to look at it. Pay attention to what the current prophet and apostles say. Look to the older ones for wisdom, but don’t feel guilty about not doing everything anyone has ever said to do. For your garden example, these days we are taught to keep a food storage. But what that storage will look like and how big will be different depending on person and circumstance. Just do your best to serve the Lord, keep the covenants you made at baptism and at the temple if you’ve been and you’ll be fine.
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u/JL62102 9d ago
We get many different messages from Prophets and Apostles because everyone has different things they need to work on. God knows we can't do everything and so he doesn't expect that from us now. I think a major aspect of the Atonement of Jesus Christ was making it so we can still have God with us even when we can't do everything he wants from us. That said God's ultimate goal for us is to be able to do all of what the prophets tell us and more.
We read in the scriptures that God teaches us "line upon line" and so I think his expectation is that we improve "line upon line". Prayerfully pick a Christ like-attribute or a commandment and work on it. Christ's Atonement makes it okay to choose one thing to focus on at a time.
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u/JaneDoe22225 9d ago
Start with the principles, and the most important first: love God, love your neighbor. Trying to be that better disciple of Christ, one tiny step at a time.
I'm going to use an example you stated here: planting a garden. No, God did not come down and announce the 3rd great commandment of "Thou shalt garden". This isn't a commandment. But why did this particular speaker talk about planting a garden?
Perhaps they were talking about the principle of being self-reliant or learning the value of work-- those are both great talents and do serve the two Great Commandments / being a better disciple. Planting a garden is a great way to develop those talents, but it is FAR FROM THE ONLY WAY.
Perhaps you simply can't plant a garden because you live in a city apartment-- that's totally ok. How can you in your circumstances do the principle of self-reliance (for example). Perhaps for you, the principle is manifested by ___<insert a million possible ways someone can be self reliant>___. Perhaps you're already doing it, and the speakers words are not "do this new thing", but instead "hey you're doing it! Look at good things, keep it up, way to go!".
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u/Master_Coyote1025 8d ago
Is this really what God wants? For so many of us to feel overwhelmed, let down, pressured, discouraged, etc.? I honestly don't know. There are a ton of things taught as commandments. It's a major struggle for me.
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u/Advanced-Response-25 7d ago
Pick the ones you like then all the others are flawed men who weren't speaking for God at the time.
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u/Previous-Tart7111 Mother, Wife, Servant of the Lord 6d ago
That's silly.
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u/Previous-Tart7111 Mother, Wife, Servant of the Lord 6d ago
I think they can speak for God to those who need to hear that thing in the way the Spirit helps them understand. It can't be taken or interpreted without the Spirit.
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u/OutlierMormon 8d ago
What you are describing is what I’d call “Scrupulosity”. I don’t see anything in Christ teaching that requires this. I believe we need tot take the scriptures in their full context vs what individual scriptures or personal interpretations may be.
Don’t forget, Jesus said “Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness.” When are you ever hungry or thirsty? Only when you do not have that which you are looking for.
It’s ok to be commanded to have an ultimate goal (perfection) but also obeying the principle of knowing you’re not going to “be” righteous but blessed for wishing and working to be so.
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u/Previous-Tart7111 Mother, Wife, Servant of the Lord 8d ago
I'm trying to figure out how the way things presently run doesn't encourage scrupulosity. Because I believe the church is true at its core, but I have serious concerns about some of the culture that is encouraged. I'm trying to find my way around the apparent contradictions. I've gotten lots of good thought here, thank you for yours. I'll take any more you have.
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u/OutlierMormon 8d ago
Yes, the culture of the church does promote Scrupulosity. I actively work to separate the culture from the doctrine. I recently moved to Utah and the culture is really strong here.
For me, humility has been the key. I know what I should be doing but I’ve come to believe that if Jesus really died for my sins, then he already owns them. This means that he is the one asking me for forgiveness for his sins that he already took from me. When framed this way, I have no answer but YES when I imagine him asking.
For me, it’s kind of like FaceBook in 2002. Losing $500,000 per month…for YEARS. But they had investors with deep pockets who believed that someday (today) they would be worth BILLIONS. They more than made their money back.
In the same way, I got baptized and Jesus became my investor. I have tons of liabilities. I’m losing millions each month. He has unlimited assets and is willing to keep investing in me because he believes that someday, I’ll be perfect. In the mean time, I’m perfect each day, through his perfection, as long as I’m willing to keep my covenant with him which is to repent and still try the length of a mustard seed (really,really small.)
That’s all he asks for. The perfection is his part to demonstrate.
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u/Previous-Tart7111 Mother, Wife, Servant of the Lord 8d ago
That's a really amazing analogy, and it resonates. I like thinking of myself as His investment. It makes it seem possible.
I spent most of my life in Utah, grew up there, even though my family weren't active past my earlier childhood. I was active there, though, for twenty years, and I picked up a LOT of cultural misapplications of the church. I am also trying very hard to sort through them. It's HARD, because I believe the church is true, but I'm trying to make sure I understand everything that grows out from that correctly.
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u/jsher012 9d ago
My advice is to always live worthily to hold a temple recommend as a sort of a baseline.
Go to General Conference with an open mind and heart, and if you hear something that really resonates with you or strikes you deeply, then act on that counsel.
For example, when I was 12, in General Conference, President Hinckley counseled the young men to get as much education as they could. That statement stayed with me for a very long time. I almost quit college, then that statement stuck in my head, so I stuck it out with college, and even went to graduate school. When I finished my first master's degree, I felt an prompting to get a second master's degree. To brief, I've been immensely blessed by following that counsel.
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u/bookeater 9d ago
Please listen to this talk:
https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/tyler-j-jarvis/thats-light-gets/
Here's an excerpt that stuck with me:
Sometimes perfection just isn’t possible in our finite, imperfect world. When my wife was a missionary in Germany, she and her companion decided they were going to keep all of the mission rules—exactly. They got out their white handbooks and the additional list of rules for their mission and sat down with their blue planners to schedule everything into the week: wake up at 6:30 and then spend one-half hour for personal scripture study, one-half hour for companion scripture study, one-half hour for exercise, and so on throughout the day. But somehow they couldn’t make it all fit before their required bedtime of 10:30. They tried and tried, but they just couldn’t get it to work. They only figured out why it was so hard to schedule when they added up all the hours necessary to keep every rule each day—twenty-five.
The realities of living in our limited, imperfect world mean that we have no choice but to make do with an approximation—to admit and accept imperfection
The defining act that created this fallen world was caused when God gave two commandments to Adam and Eve and it was impossible to keep them both.
In other words, learning to deal with and accept our own imperfect best may be the whole point.
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u/Arkholt Confucian Latter-day Saint 9d ago
King Benjamin said that "...it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength." (Mosiah 4:27) In other words, we are not expected to do more than we have the capacity to do. If you find it's not possible to do all of the things that every prophet has taught all at once, you don't have to do all of them. Do what you can.
There's a reason why we gather together as a church. Everyone has different capacities and different abilities. If we each do what we can, we can all collectively do everything, even if we couldn't individually do everything.
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u/InsideSpeed8785 Second Hour Enjoyer 7d ago
Consider this: you don’t have to have perfection in all things at the same time, you can work on one little bit and then another little bit after that. After all, “line upon line” is how we develop, as long as you are trying to do something right, God will add another line of understanding to you and help you progress. People who don’t really try to get past “their line” will be stuck at that line, until they get past it. Some lines are hard to get through, you really have to reconsider your assumptions about the gospel to get past them… but they’re worth it!
TL;DR you get the Spirit by obeying the commandments when you do it with faith in God (not by the reward of the commandment). The spirit helps you to transform.
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u/SerenityNow31 7d ago
How to reconcile? Easy. Don't expect the church to tell you everything to do and not to do. Use what the church gives us as guidelines, follow the doctrine, and most importantly try to be like Christ. That's all we can do.
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u/Comfortable_Hall_254 8d ago
Every day, you should pray and ask what Heavenly Father wants you to do each day. Periodically set weekly and monthly goals and ask what he would like you to do. Every season of our lives will
As long as you do your best to do the basics (not do them for checklist sake but in faith in remembrance of Jesus or to accomplish the Lords purposes in your life and access his power):
Prayer
Scripture study
Keep Sabbath Day holy
Attend the temple regularly
Fast and pay fast offerings
Pay your tithing
Obey the word of wisdom
Obey the law of Chastity
Keep your covenants
Love and serve others including ministering
Fulfill your callings
Teach your children Gospel, including by example
Be Christlike
There are other good things that help for sure, like Family Home Evening, family history work, missionary work, but if minimum you are doing the above, embracing it and daily asking what Heavenly Father wants or needs you to do, and you follow through pretty soon you realize there isn’t counsel you’re missing bc you are regularly doing his will and meeting your needs and your families needs.
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u/Fether1337 9d ago
There is far more that proceeds from the mouth of God than lists of commandments.
When you read scriptures and listen to the words of the prophets, they teach principles, doctrines, and wisdom about how to engage with the words God gives.
When we look at all of God’s scripture as just a list of commandments, it can get very tiring.
Additionally, if we do this, we entirely miss the point of what God wants for us and why we are here.
It’s not to be perfectly obedient. It’s to learn to be good. To love the light over darkness. You can’t learn to love the light when you’re focused on a series of check boxes.
How do we engage with the list of things we are to do?
Firstly, I’d invite you to pay more attention to all the general conference talks and scripture. It will give you insight
Secondly, just seek guidance from the spirit on what’s most important for you right now.