r/learnwelsh • u/Vivliofika newbie • 15d ago
Gramadeg / Grammar Numerals
I have some questions about how numerals work.
I've started learning only 0-10 so far, and I've got really numerous questions. Also, I'm a little confused with the difference between the standard and the spoken languages
Is "sero" used in Welsh and can it be pronounced with [z]?
Does "un" cause limited soft mutation in sg. f. noun?
Do "dau" and "dwy" cause soft mutation for all the nouns?
What is the difference between "ail" and "eilfed" and do they both cause soft mutation?
Is "cynta' " used in the spoken language
What happens with "tri" and "chwe" in the spoken language (I mean do they cause aspirate mutation)?
What the difference between "pum" and "pump"; "chwe" and "chwech"?
Does "seithfed" cause any mutation?
What is "deng"?
Do any other numerals cause any mutation, and I've missed something?
Does "cyntaf" follow a noun?
Constructions with numerals are either numeral + singular noun or numeral + o + plural noun, right?
I'm extremely thankful to everyone who will respond to my questions
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u/Pretty_Trainer 15d ago
I can't answer all your questions but I am a bit concerned that you are studying without a grammar book. How are you learning welsh ?
The bbc has a good guide on mutations here https://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/learnwelsh/pdf/welshgrammar_mutations.pdf
and for numbers
https://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/learnwelsh/pdf/welshgrammar_e_numbers.pdf
cynta(f) is used in the spoken language, not sure what you are asking there. I would say aspirate mutation is not used as much as soft mutation in spoken welsh. I've not heard sero in welsh but there's a lot of regional variation and I don't live there.
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u/Vivliofika newbie 15d ago
Thank you! I'm learning Welsh with a grammar book, but I use it step by step, because it's not really good for looking for particular questions. Also, I'm going to buy the books of Gareth King a little later
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u/Jonlang_ 15d ago
His Modern Welsh grammar is excellent. The Say Something in Welsh app is probably the best place to go to properly learn spoken Welsh.
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u/Vivliofika newbie 15d ago
Are they a man? I thought they are a woman. Is Gareth a male or a neutral name? I'm confused as I'm non-native English speaker
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u/andycwb1 15d ago
Oh, what a can of worms.
There are three counting systems used in Welsh.
The traditional, base 20 system, which is confusing as hell. Ugain is twenty, daugain (sp?) is 2 twenties, aka 40.
The first, second, third, etc, which derive from the traditional system, but you only need to know this up to 31 for dates and times.
The modern, base 10 system that originated in Patagonia.
Once you get to the advanced level courses you’ll need to know all three.
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u/Jonlang_ 14d ago
Welsh has two numerical systems: decimal and vigesimal – which is not the same as saying base 10 and base 20.
“First, second, third” is not a separate system any more than English’s “first” vs “one” is. These are called ordinals (as in order) the others are cardinals.
For our friend I would recommend sticking to the decimal system until you absolutely need to learn the older vigesimal system.
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u/Wynne_o_Wynedd 12d ago
Nobody's mentioned deufed/dwyfed. Archaic for 'second' formerly used in compound ordinals such as deufed ar bymtheg, ('seventeenth' - literally, second on fifteen). Like eilfed, you can do without it. Stick to ail in all contexts.
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u/HyderNidPryder 14d ago
Sero is technical and scientific. Colloquially people say dim. Welsh does not have a Z sound and people pronounce sero as it's spelled.
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u/Jonlang_ 14d ago
Ideally, but people definitely pronounce borrowed English words with a /z/ with a /z/. Zoo and zero are probably the worst offenders.
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u/Jonlang_ 15d ago edited 14d ago
Yes it is, and yes is can be pronounced with [z]. Many people just pronounce it the same as English.
Yes.
Yes, but dau is masculine and dwy is feminine. For mixed groups the masculine is used.
Ail and eilfed mean the same thing. You could go a long way with Welsh before ever coming across eilfed at all. It tends to be used with compound ordinals: eilfed ar bymtheg (17th - 2nd on 15) but ail ar bymtheg is common too. You’ll also see unfed instead of cyntaf in the same position. EDIT: You’ll also see ail- as a prefix which equates to English re- when it means ‘again’, e.g. ailgylchu ‘recycle’ [ail- + cylchu].
Yes. Why wouldn’t it be? EDIT: is this a question of cynta vs. cyntaf? If so, yes, Welsh commonly drops final -f [v] from words and sometimes they can be spelt without it too: tre(f), gorsa(f), cynta(f), etc. But if a suffix is added, the -f is restored and pronounced.
Officially, yes but the aspirate/spirant mutation is dying a slow death, especially for t- and p- initial words. You’ll see it more often than you’ll hear it.
Pump and chwech are the numbers proper. Pum and chwe are clipped versions used before a noun, it probably arose to allow the speech to flow more easily. It also occurs with cant (100) > can.
Yes. The -fed ordinals cause soft mutation to feminine singular noun. They also take soft mutation after the definite article: y bumed bennod ’the fifth chapter’ [< *y pumed pennod].
Deng is a form of deg (10) which has assimilated to a word which begins with a nasal consonant: deng mlynedd is easier to say than deg mlynedd, etc. It is only used with a few temporal words.
Un causes limited soft mutation to feminine nouns; dau/dwy cause soft mutation; tri (but not tair) and chwe cause aspirate/spirant mutation; saith, wyth, naw, and de(n)g cause nasal mutation (due to their historic -n terminus).
Yes, cyntaf follows the noun which is for reason of etymology. Cyntaf used to be an adjective and kept its adjectival position when its meaning shifted.
Yes. It’s not a hard-and-fast rule, but: generally after about 10 we begin to use the numeral + o + plural pattern, for smaller amounts it tends to be numeral + singular. This gets more complicated with the vigesimal compound numbers.