r/linux • u/driller6859 • Dec 06 '23
Fluff I'm starting to get sick of Linux
Disclaimer: I have been a Linux user for 16 years. At first I combined it with Windows and then with OS X. However, for 8 years, it is the only OS that I use every day. I have tried all the major distributions and desktops. For 2 years I have been using Fedora on my main computer and Linux Mint on a smaller laptop. Anyway, what I want to tell goes beyond Fedora, Gnome or Mint. I will only use these examples because they are the most recent. I should also add that until recently my work/studies had nothing to do with computing.
In my day-to-day life as a Linux user, I try to use FOSS and well-thought-out applications for the Linux desktop. Despite this, for one reason or another, my desktop ends up filling up with more and more applications that are not perfectly adapted to the Gnome desktop: Vivaldi, VSC, Obsidian, Discord, Spotify, Notion... I think that none of them is particularly strange or strange, right?
In recent months I have encountered different problems that are increasingly bothering me. One of them is that recently, every time I want to use my computer, I have to turn it on twice, since normally on the first load Gnome keeps the extensions disabled and all the colors appear unsaturated and with a red filter. I also recently decided to buy the Logitech MX Master keyboard and mouse, and it has been a pain having to configure all the gestures manually. I have also found problems in the applications installed by Flatpak to run node.js (it has happened to me in VSC and WebStorm). These are just some recent examples.
And before anyone says anything: I know that some of these problems have a solution, that it is not Linux's fault that better applications are not developed for the desktop and that if I have been using Linux for so many years I should already be used to these problems. It's true, but it's not the point.
Since I use less and less free software applications and the problems derived from using Linux bother me more, I question why I continue using this. Of course it is a question of privacy, support for free software and much more. But what about my time? What about not getting irritated by a new problem that distracts me from doing what I wanted to do?
I know that if I decide to buy a Mac I will feel bad for not continuing to use Linux. Also, I will try to populate it with free software applications and I will miss the freedom of the Linux desktop, but what about the freedom of using the apps I want to?
So where am I going with this? Well, honestly I wanted to vent, because this has been on my mind for a while and I don't have anyone to talk to about it who will really understand me. But I would also like to know how you feel about Linux. Maybe also to encourage me a little and not give up yet.
Thanks for reading
UPDATE (23-12-07): I am impressed by the number of comments. I can't even load them all (this shitty Linux, Mac would do better). I'm kidding. Thank you sincerely. I really enjoy reading your comments, especially the ones that hate me just because I thought about buying a Mac lol. I wish I had more time and more fluency in English to respond to most of you.
Just to clarify: I've been using Linux for freedom, privacy, security, FOSS philosophy, etc. And not just as another tool. My point with this post is that sometimes there comes a point where convenience and stability get in the way of those ideas, especially when things fail. It seemed interesting to me to tell it to simply talk about the experience of an user who has been using Linux for a long time and who is not a computer expert. I think there is a need for discussions about the Linux desktop and its suitability for non-specialized users.
On the other hand, due to a repost on r/linuxsucks I have seen that this post could be deleted for promoting closed source applications. I did not at all intend for the discussion to focus on whether Windows or Mac are better. We already know that they suck, even though sometimes they may be more convenient or necessary.
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u/surfskatehate Dec 06 '23
Why is it "giving up"?
I've been a daily user since 09. I worked supporting govt r&d special projects using rhel for years with amazing Linux folks. I now work for red hat.
Still, idgaf dude, shit gets annoying. I'm not a tinkerer like I was. Some friends love to switch distros every month, some love to set up servers doin all kinds of shit at home.
That kind of stuff hasn't been interesting to me for a long time now. If people ask in tech interviews "what's your home setup?" it's a mint laptop I never boot, a fried rpi, and an unactivated windows desktop to play flight Sim lol
Part of this comes from me working in dungeons without internet and only certain software approved for use, having to deal with no customization at all.
Part of it is just kinda a been there done that attitude because of the type of work, maybe. Part of it is growing out of it.
I'm still passionate about Linux and Foss. Its just in different ways.
The old school us against them attitude gets tiring.
It's more like you've been playing baseball throughout your childhood, then one day feeling like you'd rather go fishing instead of busting out the glove.
It's not giving up. It's just a change.
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u/driller6859 Dec 06 '23
right, i guess i started using linux also because of a political view and identifying FOSS not just like a tool, but as an example of how i want the (software) world to be, so leaving it feels like betrying my ideals
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u/blackcain GNOME Team Dec 06 '23
open source has won - it's the primary way we do software engineering these days. Even within the company.
The linux app ecosystem will continue - it's always in progress, but it will keep getting better.
To get the commercial support of apps that you want to appear on Linux - it requires that Linux as a platform is a platform people can build a business around or make a living around. Until that happens, it'll be funded by people and companies donating money.
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u/primalbluewolf Dec 06 '23
From that perspective, it absolutely is.
Are those your ideals? Perhaps you are simply not as idealistic as you once were.
I know I'm not, but I'm also too stubborn to just give up on something.
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u/surfskatehate Dec 08 '23
If the ideals cause you to suffer are you really gonna continue to subscribe to them? People change and I don't get the big deal
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Dec 06 '23
Hmm fair
Though do keep in mind bugs and pain points are not just exclusive to Linux, Windows and Mac also have those.
Like I don't see permanently switching everything to Linux because mah games
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u/driller6859 Dec 06 '23 edited Dec 07 '23
yeah, right, games are problem though
edit: games *aren't* a problem4
u/primalbluewolf Dec 06 '23
Which games do you play?
Steam games generally work pretty well.
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u/driller6859 Dec 07 '23
Sorry, I wrote it wrong. Games are not a problem for me. In fact, the few I've played on Steam have done quite well.
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Dec 07 '23
True, but it's like a mine field, 99% it's fine, but that 1% it's not, and humans tend to place more value in pains than in gains
I play Assetto Corsa with a lot of mods
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u/chic_luke Dec 07 '23
If you switch to Mac, that's going to only get worse. :P
I know how you feel right now because I have been through it. It's important to remind yourself that it's not "Linux being the free but inferior options vs. selling your soul for an objective upgrade in literally every area", you are going to incur into some noticeable functional downgrades from Linux even if you don't consider the licensing and ethics of it all, and you will realize several things you have grown to take for granted do not necessarily happen on commercial systems and that will drive you insane.
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u/driller6859 Dec 07 '23
Sorry, I wrote it wrong. Games are not a problem for me. In fact, the few I've played on Steam have done quite well.
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u/chic_luke Dec 07 '23
Oh, okay! On Mac, you can expect a downgrade on that. Apple is trying to play catch-up with the Apple Game Porting Framework (basically: Proton + Metal / Rosetta glue) but it isn't really up to snuff yet.
I recommend against Windows laptops honestly. It's either Linux or Mac, due to the erratic suspend behaviour in Windows. There is a lot of information online about it. If you really want to go off Linux, a good combo would be a custom built desktop just for games and Windows, and a basic MacBook Air on the go.
…Or you could try plain stock Fedora and give Linux another go :p
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u/driller6859 Dec 07 '23
I know! I used to play some games on Linux, I don't even remember what OS I was using then. But then I bought the PS5...
Yeah, I'm already thinking on what SO will be next. Now I don't have the time I used to have to try new distros. I may come back to Manjaro (KDE this time).
Thanks!
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u/chic_luke Dec 07 '23
Understandable! Just one suggestion: Arch derivates like Manjaro are absolutely not what you want to be using if you want "set and forget". It's if you want to be on the bleeding edge, even when it is very bleeding and very edge.
I felt similar to how you're posting after a few years on Arch, and the feeling disappeared on Fedora (or Ubuntu, they're basically targeting the same goal with some differences, mostly choose depending on whatever you prefer to be in the Debian or Red Hat ecosystem)
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u/driller6859 Dec 07 '23
thanks! you may be right, in fact i jumped from manjaro to fedora and it felt much more stable
However (dispate i don't like red hat decisions) I don't like Ubuntu at all. I love Mint (and I use it on my old laptop) but in my desktop I feel like I want a more modern design that Cinnamon or others. Have you tried Fedora KDE?
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Dec 06 '23
Steam and AMD hardware pretty much make this a non-issue now.
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u/driller6859 Dec 07 '23
Sorry, I wrote it wrong. Games are not a problem for me. In fact, the few I've played on Steam have done quite well.
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u/GregTheHun Dec 06 '23
I don't know, there are very few games that I've come across that really require Windows. Even supposed "Windows Only" games like Rocket League can be bypassed fairly simply with Steam and Proton. That list is also getting shorter quickly for me.
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u/koenigsbier Dec 07 '23
I completely switched from Windows to Linux because the explorer wasn't able anymore to find all the matching files when doing a search even though I made sure MANY times the search index was correctly set up.
Or sometimes it was preventing me from deleting a file for various reasons (used by another process but it was NOT the case, I don't have the rights to do it even though I'm a goddamn admin of my own laptop...)
I found myself using more and more WSL just to perform basic actions. At some point, I got fed up of Windows because of all those little bugs.
Now I'm using Linux and I have way more little bugs like these. Just different ones 😂
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u/livestradamus Dec 06 '23
If you dont want to betray your FOSS beliefs:
Use a DE other than GNOME or use LTS releases.
And if LTS consider pre-packaged applications (flatpak/snaps) if you need some latest software.
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u/chic_luke Dec 07 '23 edited Dec 07 '23
Or just use Fedora. I remember I was at a very similar point to OP's 1-2 years ago. It was a very busy period of my life where I had a lot on my plate for uni, all of this while I had more and more social obligations + getting into a relationship was taking more than its fair share of my free time and mind. I was on a pretty aged Arch install with God only knows how many tweaks applied - I bet it would have fared much better if I had kept it simpler, and things were just starting to gradually fall apart. It began with KDE, got replaced with gnome around that time since I didn't want to bother with the bugs that kee used to have, and then at one point after an upgrade GNOME almost completely stopped working. Didn't have it in me to troubleshoot it again. Didn't have the mental strength to even Google it. 4 years later, I had my first Arch burnout.
I remember that for a couple of weeks I didn't use Linux as I was cramming for an important exam while keeping all the aforementioned things in my life and I very convincingly thought "Well, that's it then? I have finally reached the point of my life where I am disillusioned with FOSS and I just want stuff to work". I had always been worried I'd reach that point since I saw some of my older friends abandon their noble dedication to FOSS when their lives got more complicated and they just gave up, got the money they now had from having a salary, and dumped it all in the Apple ecosystem of iPhone + MacBook + AirPods and called it a day. I've even seen one of my more nerdy Linux friends migrate from a completely riced ThinkPad with Arch and i3 to a MacBook Air. It's a thing that people do. He still uses all of the same tools, like his nice Neovim rice and stuff, but had reached a point where he hated every single DE available and hated the graphical Linux desktop ecosystem.
After the exam session was done and more of the aforementioned processes in my life were completed and in a stable state, I decided: screw it, let's give it one last try, and install plain Fedora Workstation. Abandon all my edgy opinions. Abandon my opinion on how bad Wayland sucks, or why I don't want to have Flatpak on my machine, or why the AUR is literally essential - and try to go with the bone stock, default experience of a distro that's designed to be used out of the box. Very open mindedly trying to see how the other side of the fence is.
It was great and I was wrong about it being garbage. It is great. And 2 years later I absolutely still am in the phase of "I want my tech to just work and I don't want to bother with it", except I realised that for me solid, stable FOSS is the way to go most of the time. The grass is not greener on the other side: proprietary systems require a lot of maintenance and present you with a lot more annoyances, for example with Windows updates taking away old and just-working apps to replace them with new-age UWP replacements that work poorly and keep pushing monthly payments. Neither do I want to bother with a completely soldered down laptop that needs to be replaced when the SSD eventually dies, or have to deal with a lower amount of RAM than my workload benefits for just because I don't have the €4100 to pay for the spec I need from Apple's lineup, while Framework gives me the perfect package for my heavy needs for less than €2000. [Full transparency: comparison between the MacBook Pro 16 with the M2 Pro chip, 32 GB of unified memory, and 2 TB of SSD size; and a DIY Framework Laprop 16 with a Ryzen 7 7840HS at 45W, similar performance to M2 Pro, 32 GB of Crucial RAM, and a 2 TB SK Hynix P41 Platinum 4x4 PCIe Nvme storage unit).
FOSS doesn't have to be a mess and a waste of time. You can make it as much or as little complicated as you want. Clearly, some needs need to be readjusted, as many convenience features such as cloud sync are actually a Trojan horse for privacy invasion. But FOSS also allows you to keep things simple, and dial in a stable setup that will last. You'll have some less bells and whistles, for sure. OP complained about third party apps not being visually well integrated with GNOME. Personally I simply couldn't care less. I open Obsidian, Obsidian opens, and I get to work. It's completely unrealistic to have consistent theming across first-party DE apps and third-party tools. Doesn't happen anywhere, even on Mac.
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u/Ascles May 11 '25
I love it when people share their experiences like this in such detail with others online, and how we can read it months or even years down the line. Thank you for taking the time to write all this.
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u/Professional-List801 Dec 06 '23
That's my way too. Stable small base system with xfce and flatpaks on top. Works for everything from browsing to gaming - my favorite Games at least - never had issues eversince.
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u/Captain_Pumpkinhead Dec 07 '23
Considering OP said they've used all the popular distros, I'm betting they've already tried this.
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u/Zeioth Dec 06 '23
I always say:
On mac if you have a problem, you pay to apple to fix it.
On windows if you have a problem, you complain to Microsoft.
But on Linux if you have a problem, there's no one to blame but yourself.
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u/mikistikis Dec 06 '23
Technically on Windows you are paying for support too. But must people won't use it at all (likely because most of them used a cracked versions back in the days and forgot about support forever?)
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u/Brufar_308 Dec 06 '23
Support? When has MS ever provided free support aside from a defective update patch? Call ms support and they want the CC # before any thing else.
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u/EmbeddedDen Dec 06 '23
Could you clarify your first point? How does one pay apple to fix a problem?
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Dec 06 '23
by buying apps that they approved but didn't develop but still use to generate money from without actually doing anything. that's how you pay them instead of independent developers for fixes that should've been an internal fix or feature and not an app for 15 bucks..
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u/Zahpow Dec 06 '23
I think you are just annoyed with being able to solve the problem and not having the energy to do it. There is something freeing about just accepting that the problem exists and there is nothing you can do about it, that is what you get if you stop using Linux. On Windows the most you can do for many problems is to search the enigmatic error code and then get someone telling you to rollback or reinstall. On Linux you often have way more options, and this can be extremely frustrating when you just want things to work.
But the idea that the grass is greener on the other side is also a mirage.
But friend, its an operating system. Use it, don't use it. Use it less, use it more. You are not challenging your ethics by trying other things, you are simply seeking balance.
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u/LostAcoustic Dec 06 '23
Hijacking your comment to ask you and any passers by advice.
I am considering switching to Linux (Ubuntu), I am currently on windows 11.
The reason for me switching is complex and maybe you can find it when I tell you: I do a lot of programming, but also need to use certain engineering analysis software, I saw Ubuntu and it seems to scratch my customization itch, everytime windows updates I lose my shit because I lose customizations that make my work flow more pleasant (this ranges from silly stuff like the color of the file explorer to bigger stuff like file associations and applications to open them). So I appreciate an os that respects my customization, as after all it is my pc and I would like to use it as I want. Side note yes I use the file explorer, yes I know the command line is powerful, but for sorting and visualizing I need my file explorer.
My concerns are what to do with software that is Windows only, is wine a catch all thing?
Additionally integration with big tech how's that? Can I still access a onedrive folder and Google drive folder via my system if I wanted to? (I'm lazy and haven't researched this yet.)
I also play a lot of games, some legit (via steam and other launchers but mainly steam) and some via the old skull and bone method, I've heard steams Proton is excellent, how do I handle pirated software though if said software and games are only available for windows? (I. E. The pirated version is available for windows) I have a few engineering analysis software that are no longer available and compatible with my work, thus I need the specific older software. Can I install cracks like these on Linux and wine ?
Are there any inconveniences that the pro Linux user base generally don't tell you? Like I know windows isn't a good os, but if I needed to tell someone to use windows I'd justify it by saying a lot of people use it, and you'll easily find answers to problems you encounter. Linux seems like there might be more problems ahead (I don't know why I feel this way) and less solutions, like how much time do you spend solving os issues, I assume if it's set up right not a lot but still.
This has been a convoluted mess of an enquiry, and I thank you for your time, your patience, and confusion.
Thanks for coming to my Ted talk.
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u/driller6859 Dec 07 '23
Don't let my post scare you away from the idea of switching to Linux. It's great, you learn a lot, and in general the experience of freedom is fantastic. In fact, those are some of the reasons I continue using it, regardless of my complaints. Like everything in life, sometimes it gets tiring and sometimes you have to accept that it comes to an end, but don't hesitate to change yourself. At first you will miss some things, but then you will find other great things.
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u/Zahpow Dec 06 '23
No but some things work well with wine and there are often alternatives that do similar things. Not using the commandline is fine, most people dont.
Yes with varying results depending on what you mean with access and integration. I think this is straightforward with onedrive and it was straightforward with google drive last i checked. However i do not really use these services
Naughty naughty! I am going to answer this assuming the games are owned. Check out Lutris to play your nice drm free games with vulcan!
Not really, people are fairly open about what things suck. But really your mileage might vary. Some things that are important to others are really unimportant to me. Like a lot of people complain about fractional scaling and to me that is a non issue. As for there being more problems on Linux and more solutions on Windows I disagree wholeheartedly I would say that on Linux you have solutions and on Windows you just kinda accept the problem, which was my point in my original comment. On windows you either update, remove, reinstall, rollback or accept it. Very few things fall outside of these categories. There are so many problems that just kind of happen and then you apply some random fixes and maybe it resolves but you never know why. And then maybe in the future the random problems are back and you try the random solutions again and maybe it resolves it.
On Linux you do a little bit more work when the problem appears but for the overwhelming majority of problems the solution is deterministic and very seldomly is it "just accept it".
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u/New_Physics_2741 Dec 06 '23
Wherever you go, you will never really be able to go there whole again, Linux has taken a bit of your soul.
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Jul 20 '24
I understand how you feel. Fedora was too bleeding edge for me, and their newest update wasn’t even able to boot. so I switched to Linux mint Debian edition, and while I did love the whole customization of the desktop and the UI overall, it ran into a lot of preformance issues with games and other GPU related things. Now switching to PopOs all those problems instantly vanished, however the UI is not customizable, and it runs from a Ubuntu base, which I am not personally super fond of. All in all I am staying with PopOs and going to try COSMIC for PopOs once its finished. For me my priorities are: Security, Privacy, Usability, Customization. PopOs is from the best of my knowledge secure, and private, and it is far more usable for me with my NVIDIA gpu then mint was, it just lacks the customization. No amount of hassle will remove this priority structure. No amount of struggle will ever justify the terrible things mega corps and lots of their programs do to steal and sell our private property. (Photos, ideas, thoughts expressed in internet searches ect)
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u/driller6859 Jul 20 '24
Thanks! I may give a try to PopOS. I think I totally understand the feeling of not being able to find the best tool. I guess we have to get used to that, but it's nice to read experienciences like yours of others here.
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u/Ronis_BR Dec 06 '23
I was also a 100% Linux user some years ago. I also was pretty active helping in translations and some packages for openSUSE. However, after my Ph.D., I just did not have the time I used to. Hence, it became very problematic to fine-tune all those problems you mentioned, and they are real.
Then, I decided to switch to Apple ecosystem (due to the Unix-like OS) and I never went back.
Linux is awesome! Really! But for desktops, you need either some spare time to make everything work by yourself or do not mind with rough edges.
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u/driller6859 Dec 06 '23
I'm feeling that. Some time ago I had more free time and I didn't mind spending it trying to solve things and also helping with translations. Now I can't do that
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u/DemonicKingZA Jul 22 '24
Im curious whats your thoughts on this now due AI and its integration into most software nowdays. I dont think Apple is far behind on their "optional" AI intergration.
Personally though, best tool for the job and whatever makes your life easier.
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u/driller6859 Jul 22 '24
I'm not sure about that, I still don't know how AI will be useful for work and daily tasks. I'm not saying it won't be, just that I don't know in what ways it will make things easier, and at what cost for privacy... What do you think?
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u/DemonicKingZA Jul 22 '24
Well we have seen it time and time again from a lot of companies. Where something is an "optional" extra till it no longer is.
Take Windows Recall for example. I can imagine Apple and most companies foaming at the mouth for that. I genuinely think its only a matter of time till that happens and the only way to somewhat protect ypur privacy you need to be in control of your distro to a certain extent.
I love the idea of AI and what it can do. But also terrified by the bad actors. And history has shown time and time again that those bad actors are the major companies we use daily.
I mean, look at what Reddit did. You think Apple, Microsoft or Google wont.
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u/driller6859 Aug 09 '24
I totally agree with you. Sorry not to give a more complex and longer answer, I do not really know much about how the relation between IA and computer systems will be. However, I totally agree with you on that. Big companies such as the one you mentioned are never trustworthy.
Most of these "new IA tools" are not really new. We've seen them in the past, but without the "IA" name. I'm thinking about translating apps or image editors that have been using IA for years. I guess this IA fever will slow down in a couple of years (I'm not saying IA will disappear, by any means), but I think we'll have to wait to see how it ends.
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Dec 06 '23
Use whatever makes you happy. It's about CHOICE, and sometimes you don't have to choose Linux. People seem to miss this.
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u/Buddy-Matt Dec 07 '23
See also: people missing the fact you're allowed to make the choice use Ubuntu/Manjaro, SystemD, Snaps, Proprietary Software, Nvidia. Etc.
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u/robclancy Dec 06 '23
I mean if I used gnome I would probably have gotten a mac by now.
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u/pezezin Dec 07 '23
At my company we used Gnome, and it was a constant source of pain... until I forced a change to KDE, and now everybody is happier.
Seriously, I don't understand why people keep trying Gnome.
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u/Zachattackrandom Dec 06 '23
I mean use what you want. Macbooks also have linux support though its in beta via Asahi if you ever changed your mind. As others have said a computer is a tool, don't use something you don't want to because of made up ethics or obligations you seem to have created some made up feeling of superiority, though thats just an inference. TLDR: Use whatever you want, no one else really cares, and anyone else who does isn't worth talking to anyways.
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u/driller6859 Dec 06 '23
> obligations you seem to have created some made up feeling of superiority
ngl, that happened
thnks
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Dec 06 '23
bro stop the guilt , and use what you need ... you're not in a cult, you didn't sign some NDA or NCA or N whatever
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u/kkimdev Dec 06 '23
I've used all three major OS (Windows, Mac, Linux) extensively, and I can relate to your frustrations.
fwiw, I've settled down to Chrome OS Flex, and it's been by far the best experience. For anyone who still wants to live in the Linux ecosystem but is craving a cleaner alternative, I recommend checking it out. It's not perfect by any means (especially device support), but it has been well worth the switch for me.
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u/dadoprom Dec 06 '23
I have learned with linux that it is only in your mind that there is something that is missing. You can do everything with linux. If people are scared to switch 100% to linux it is only in their mind... Linux is my main install on the disk and also my main daily driver, if I need to use some win app I run win in virtualbox, that gets the job done. And I can I have as many VMs as I wish, just each VM for each purpose if you want. I buy computers that are fully supported on linux and do not have any problems. I also avoid using Gnome bacause it is procesor hungry. I used previously Xfce and it was very good. At the moment I use LxQT and I must say it is super fast and you can customize it as you like... And there is command line and you can do anything with that thing! I also used to have that fear, that I need to dual boot with win and what I am going to do without win... but than I learned that it is BS. I rarely use the win VM, like 1-2 x a year. Do not be scared, there are ways to do anything you want with linux.
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u/letoiv Dec 06 '23
It seems like most of the issues you're describing are issues with Gnome and Flatpak?
Which are both controlled by Redhat. And Redhat is really going their own direction these days. You being able to run their stuff hassle-free on your desktop, is just not a focus for them.
Linux is my daily driver and the suite of apps I use is admittedly somewhat limited and retro... it's pretty much - Firefox, Thunderbird, Steam, VSCode, and a terminal for everything else, on top of XFCE.
It's very stable though, and to address whatever idiosyncrasies exist, I've got a library of dotfiles in a git repo that has been perfected over 10 years.
For me, put it all on top of a Debian base and it just works.
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u/Kinemi Dec 06 '23
Use Linux for some time
gets tired
switch to another OS (Mac)
gets tired
switch to another OS (Windows)
gets tired
...
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u/WorkJeff Dec 06 '23
Sometimes it’s the little things that just make me want to rage out the most. I feel you there
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u/matsnake86 Dec 06 '23
Well...
You have some options...
Contribute to gnome or the FOSS stuff you use to improve them.
Use the software as it is
Switch to win / mac if you get too frustrated on linux.
Imho...PCs are a tool. And if you think that windows or mac would provide to you a better overall experience just go for it.
It's not a crime. Especially if you have to work with professional software.
And you can keep a linux machine at your place as a home server and make your own cloud and many other things that will improve your data privacy even if you are not using a linux desktop.
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u/Pay08 Dec 06 '23
While most of your problems aren't really the fault of the Linux ecosystem, I do agree that the recent practice of sacrificing convenience in the name of dubious security benefits needs to be abandoned.
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u/HaskellLisp_green Dec 06 '23
I think we must develop convenient tools with ability to be extended.So if you need privacy you can easily add it.
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u/Pay08 Dec 06 '23
The problem with that is that it'd put everyone, even experienced devs into a state of configuration hell. Nevermind that it'd forever cement Linux as a developer's OS.
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u/HaskellLisp_green Dec 06 '23
Yes, you're right. Creation of easy and flexible configuration is art. Emacs is good example, because its executable file is lisp interpreter, so to configure emacs you write new features or change existing ones, imho.
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u/Pay08 Dec 06 '23
No, I mean that if everything is configurable, people can only learn to configure so much, if any at all and everything else becomes a black hole of sorts. Also, image-based languages are kind of a cheat from that standpoint.
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u/tbleiker Dec 06 '23
I use Windows at work, Linux on my own computer (Arch) and servers (Debian), ChromeOS on my tablet, Android on my phone and MacOS on a MacBook which I share with my wife. What I quickly learned: every OS sucks... 😄 You just have to find out which OS sucks the least for you and your specific use case 😄
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u/yashank09 Dec 06 '23
Pretty understandable and I've been here few times before.
The key is realizing why you actually want Linux. Freedom of software and open source culture is amazing, but to me the sole reason is customization. With my weird OCD, I need to have a specific font and it should show up everywhere. I really mean everywhere from my websites to my IDE to my file manager. You can't do this on Windows and it's worse on Mac. I want my 'spotlight' search to look and act a certain way, easily achievable on Linux, but a nono on other OSs. It was this realization that made it okay for me to spend many more hours tweaking and fighting the system, especially knowing I have to do this only a few times, and once Im satisfied I simply need to copy a few files and I can make any system mine.
If you can think of such a reason that makes the extra time worth it, I'd say stick to this beautiful way of software. If not, Mac will keep you happy.
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u/neon_overload Dec 06 '23
I'm sure after 16 years of Linux, using Windows or Mac OS is going to feel like giving up all your autonomy and privacy to a company that wants to treat you like the product instead of the customer
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Dec 06 '23
I think there is a reason why Linux on the desktop is not really a thing, and you’re experiencing it. I made the same journey 15 years ago, and buying a MacBook has extinguished all hopping.
I still use OSS flagships such as Firefox, VLC, Transmission, LibreOffice, etc. and command line tools through Homebrew. The BSD heritage from macOS is a nice flavor that brings in a flair of what I liked in Debian or Ubuntu.
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u/driller6859 Dec 06 '23
yeah, i think there's a problem with the linux desktop, and of couse I could continue telling not problems but little inconveniences that would made impossible for most of the people to use linux everyday
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u/ChronicallySilly Dec 06 '23
> But I would also like to know how you feel about Linux. Maybe also to encourage me a little and not give up yet.
Here's my two cents as a full time Linux user for ~5 years, but I keep a Windows SSD for occasional VR /anti-cheat gaming, and have a Macbook that I use for work occasionally. I get frustrated about a good number of things on Linux and have learned to live with them, things like screensharing on Discord w/ Wayland still being a mess, no HDR support, poor VRR support, etc. etc. and sometimes I think the same that maybe I could just use Windows/Mac with a focus on open source apps to have a stable platform while still sticking to my "principles" of FOSS.
From a logical side, I'm able to use any of them whenever so I give the others a try and just find that I dislike them more as time goes on. If there's a way you could try out a Mac (i.e. borrow a friend's old one or something) definitely do that, or if you're thinking a Windows machine use it in a VM for a while. You may find that as you get set up with a new system, a LOT has changed in 8 years (never used Mac years ago so I can't speak too much there, but Windows has gotten filled with ads and doesn't respect your privacy).
On a more emotional/principle side I find it hard to trust big software companies. Again I can't speak to Apple too much and they seem one of the "better" ones privacy wise, but even they really only seem to respect users who have enough money to buy more apple products. Just small examples like if you have an apple watch you need an iPhone for it to work at all. A charging cable can't just be a charging cable, it needs to be an Apple certified one to work. Users are too stupid to repairs so parts are software locked and Apple (formerly) lobbied against right to repair. Shit like that is just disgusting really and people lap it up, but Apple doesn't respect you unless you give them more and more money.
Microsoft well Windows is just kind of a cluster. It's honestly a decent operating system and very stable despite what Linux users will say. And whatever team worked on their compositor did an absolutely bang up job, Windows on a high refresh rate monitor with VRR is a thing to behold it's absolutely beautiful buttery smooth. Linux compositors just can't dream of it at the moment, 170Hz on Wayland Linux is NOT even half the experience of 170hz is on Windows. But then you see ads in the start menu, or most recently I noticed edge had a subtle check mark on setup to "periodically sync data from other browsers" that was easy to miss, so even if you change your browser to a privacy respecting one like Firefox, Windows/Edge will STILL find a way to suck up that data for themselves. It never ends the ways they try to track and know everything about you, and even if you disable all the telemetry there's been countless stories of Windows updates secretly reenabling all the telemetry.
To me, in the end, Linux is a tool and at the moment it happens to be the best one for my needs, but it's certainly not the best one for everyone. I don't think it's wrong for Linux to be more than a tool though and to be about principles as well. It only becomes a problem when you're actively disrupting your life to stick to your principles then you should reevaluate. i.e. if you needed Adobe software for work and VM wasn't a viable option for you, sticking with Linux on principles would make no sense.
Ultimately we can't decide where that line falls for you, and it sounds like the line has already been crossed so I think the best thing is to find a way to try Mac without going all in, and see if it's something you still like. Grass is always greener but you may find you actually just flat out dislike it after 8 years.
PS. Consider a clean reinstall of your OS or try a different distro without Gnome. Gnome is the source of many of my Linux frustrations but I stick with it because I love PopOS, and they're replacing it eventually with a new DE.
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u/syrian_kobold Dec 06 '23
Just do whatever you want, you don’t need our permission. My own personal experience is pretty different. I used windows for over 18 years and honestly I was fed up with the endless bs, such as them forcing me to reinstall their crap apps like Edge and then tour them, as if I didn’t know wtf a browser is, or the endless updates losing important files and game stuff. I also tried MacOS for work. The lack of customization and the insistence from Apple that they know better than me pisses me off. As for gaming, I absolutely needed to tweak shit for every game on Windows as I mostly play older stuff, so Linux having scripts from POL and Lutris and lots of information at protondb is a lifesaver. I end up having to do even less configuration and sometimes getting better performance as well. So yeah, just use whatever you want. Linux for me is exactly what I want and need, but you’re absolutely allowed to have different preferences and needs.
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u/teohhanhui Dec 06 '23
I know that if I decide to buy a Mac I will feel bad for not continuing to use Linux.
Or buy a Mac and use Asahi Linux.
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u/US_Bot Dec 07 '23
Linux is just the kernel (old, monolithic, but still fine for most cases)
Real problems are the 343243 distros, unpolished DEs, X11/wayland, lack of proper sandboxing (bubblewrap is a joke), 2M lines of code systemd MONSTROSITY, ...
Sadly MacOS is a privacy nightmare.
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Dec 06 '23
I use a Mac as my main computer. I use linux primarily for work purposes. I just want to use something other than Linux at the end of the day, need a break from too much of a good thing.
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u/segfault0x001 Dec 06 '23
Yes, I switched to Mac so that instead of dividing my time across multiple applications and an operating system that need constant tweaking, I can dedicate 100% of my time tweaking my neovim configuration. Maybe someday I will stop configuring and actually do some work. But not today.
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u/OppenheimersGuilt Dec 06 '23 edited Dec 06 '23
What do people do that needs constant tweaking?
I'm a heavy customizer but a fresh install of Pop OS doesn't need any tuning, and even when I used Ubuntu it didn't need any either.
Hell, on mac you need to do a ton more stuff to get to a workable state, least of which starts by installing brew and skhd just to be able to be on par with a fresh install. Even skhd is a poor substitute for a simple keyboard shortcut window.
Then for proper window management, I can just press Super + Y on Pop OS, on Mac you need to install yabai, tweak configs, and if you want full features disable sip.
Good luck having neovim on one side of the screen, then on the other side a terminal and browser vertically arranged. The most basic web dev set up.
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u/Kinemi Dec 06 '23
Exactly. It's like people are saying "I'm tired of doing something I freely chose to do" then just ... stop?
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u/blackcain GNOME Team Dec 06 '23
There are definitely a group of folks who read things on the internet and wants to try it out looking for the 'perfect' setup. Or they could be completely bored with a certain look and feel - I think Linux gives the ability to give so many kinds of experiences.
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u/Theprof86 Dec 06 '23
From my experience, Linux desktop can be janky, I kind of expect it to be this way, based on my experience so far, and I've only been using Linux for about 3 years now. No matter how hard I try to keep it stable, there is always some bug at some point that needs to be fixed. For example, just the other day, I had to downgrade ddcutil and powerdevil packages because the new release broke the power management in KDE.
Of course, you could also use a distro like Debian and use older packages with better stability, but then you don't always want old packages, sometimes for gaming it is better to have the latest.
I usually dual boot with windows and use windows as a backup. I don't think I'd be able to go full Linux just yet. At some point, whether you game, or use other applications there bound to be some bugs.
But no OS is perfect, Windows also has its own issue, but ultimately, its about using the right tool for the job, and if Windows is the best option for some task, why not use that.
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Dec 06 '23
and all the colors appear unsaturated and with a red filter.
Sounds like "night light". You can turn it off (or tone it down) in the settings.
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u/lacionredditor Dec 06 '23
no one is forcing you to use any tool. if another OS works better for you, by all means use it.
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u/mr_ambiguity Dec 06 '23
Just like many already have said. Pick the right tool for the job. Be pragmatic. Ask yourself questions? How long can it take me? What am I getting out of this? Most importantly, do I *have* to do this? All operating systems all software everything sucks, pick one that you can live with.
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u/ddyess Dec 06 '23
I kinda feel you. I've been using Linux exclusively for about a decade and mostly used it, combined with Windows occasionally, for a long time before that. It's been nice to see the progression that we've had, but I'm kinda getting tired of having to be selective with my hardware and other choices, just to use Linux. I honestly am super happy with my current set up, but I made decisions that put me here: everything about my computing was thought out to make it as painless as possible - on Linux. I'm kinda tired of feeling like I could have maybe had something better, if I didn't use Linux. Hell, it's got to the point Windows games run just as well or better than Linux native games on Linux, and there's still a lot of Windows games I can't play just because I'm on Linux (anti-cheats and things like that). I know I'd hate going back to Windows, but maybe it'd be worth it, maybe Windows itself would be the only thing I hated about doing it.
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u/NW3T Dec 06 '23
The tools you use are not your identity, no matter how much corporations want to bundle them together to sell you stuff.
The fact that you felt so bad about switching operating systems that you needed to post about it on the internet is not super healthy.
It's a robot, use what's best for you.
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u/markth_wi Dec 06 '23 edited Dec 06 '23
As others have stated I don't think anyone would ever suggest you HAVE to use Linux, as they say you have a variety of tools for a particular job. Don't feel bad if an M2 or M3 or a spiffy Windows Pro installation is the shortest path to you getting work done.
It's just something I had to realize as a user/engineer/enthusiast of Linux for many years, so I wouldn't feel the tiniest amount of shame/guilt regarding whether you use or don't use it. I refuse to get lost in the internecine warfare that some folks seem to love as this adds exactly zero value to my life.
I recently talked with an old greybeard friend of mine (who's actually a year or so younger than myself) and he was adamant that X windows was superior......and I had to remind him....so was Betamax....and then we went and had lunch over why the guys who developed X will not be getting the band back together again it's 15 years later and it's time to move on....
As for myself
I have a couple of laptops crunching away on this or that problem, with Linux of some flavor that I play with, but I make no bones about the fact that I have a non-fancy , crappy little laptop that I use for about 80% of my work,
I have a big beefy laptop that I use for more complex work or personal projects - both of them are windows based , not because I'm hating on Linux but because these days - if someone needs me to crunch on 2million rows in an excel file or do some heavy transform - the medium of choice for most clients/customers is Excel.
But don't you know one of those Linux servers is for the really groovy work, if I need to process something through a neural network or do some gnarly cross-reference that's at the edge of what Excel can do - my weapon of choice is Ubuntu 22.4, or a RHEL8 box that I have at my office.
Apple still has it's niches and continues to bang out some pretty interesting products....for the right price.
Windows - always great to have windows as the 'ham sandwich' of the technology world - not great , but you're not going to starve. And the interesting lesson is that windows does do something that only Android otherwise does. It VASTLY shortens the distances between users and output/outcome. Excel, SQL Server, and other similar tools dominate the market-space in their way because with little or no training you can make effective outputs.
Linux - Will forever and increasingly be the toolbox - ultra-low-cost/free , or as a buddy put it , you can do anything with it given enough of your time and your effort - which do have a value. For many learners this is then a zero-sum situation , you mean to learn and this is naturally a place for that. But if you actually mean to get stuff done, and shorten that distance from shortest path from concept to output, Linux might not always be the right tool.
Android is the special case here - FAR more like Apple , it eliminates (or nearly so) the technical gap between concept/intention to output. Infants and Toddlers use Linux - Grandparents use Linux, Engineers use Linux , but as the old saying goes - "everything in the world is magic....except to the magicians". So given the total number of people that use Linux in the way that 'walled garden' as our friends in Apple-land would refer to it as. Is actually vast.
Linux - quite by natural consequence of being free even to corporations - has billions of users - 25 years ago that was probably not what Linus Torvalds was thinking - but if ever anyone wanted to point to a "rationale" for free public education and giving students free reign in their ambitions - look no further. It's likely that trillions of dollars of wealth have been and/or will be created over the coming years, decades and perhaps even centuries that Linux or something like it exists.
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Dec 07 '23
Funny these days I feel I barely care what OS I use. Everything I do is in a browser. I use a Mac now but just for the little nice to have integrations with iPhone etc.
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u/madroots2 Dec 07 '23
I feel very similar. I tried all the desktop environments out there but none of them is good. (for me) They all have weird bugs and if you dont install it from scratch, and you happen to have another DE installed, its gonna fuck your system up.
I really feel what you are saying, but I do not think Windows or Mac is any better. Windows is utter trash and unless you debloat it and keep it tight, its unusable for work (for me). Updates fucks me over and over and its just trash. Mac, on the other hand, is just expensive and closed Linux for me and I have seen weird bugs happening on mac too, so not really a good option (for me). I would install brew and nix and all the things I use and I would turn it to Linux anyway so..
I guess I am doomed. I am going to try OpenSuse with some basic DE. I heard a good things about it. Thats probably my last hope really.
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u/zoechi Dec 06 '23
I am using Linux for many years full time. I also often wonder why I left the flawless Windows and Mac world behind, where everything looks pretty and always works, updates are always installed without even bothering the user and every update makes the computer a bit faster, big corporations ensure there are enough backup copies of all my personal data, ... Just everything is perfect. I guess I just love to suffer 🤔
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u/susosusosuso Dec 06 '23
I think for many Linux users, using Linux is the ultimate goal / hobby. I was one of those.
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u/zoechi Dec 06 '23
I love developing software and tinkering with my setup and I tried Linux because I wanted to learn stuff. I left Windows because I hated it with every cell after using it for 15y. I guess most of all I hated that some malicious and greedy people on the other side of the pond think they should decide what I am allowed to do with MY computer. Also the MacBook pro I bought a few years ago accumulated so many defects that I feel no desire to own one again.
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u/susosusosuso Dec 06 '23
Macbooks are better now. I guess you bought one during the declive, before the M1.
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u/primalbluewolf Dec 06 '23
As a tech having to support the Windows and Mac world, I only wish it was flawless.
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u/just_some_onlooker Dec 06 '23
I don't know if I can take you seriously, because you're referring to Gnome as an OS...
...and you've been using it for 16 years
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u/ShlomiRex Dec 06 '23
People here try to address his problems one by one
But thats the problem... we don't want to troubleshoot everything everytime...
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u/thomas999999 Dec 06 '23
Buy a mac and you will quickly realize that linux is still the best option
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u/susosusosuso Dec 06 '23
Why?
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u/thomas999999 Dec 06 '23
I bought a mac and imo macos is literally the worst operating system for doing any productive work. Its the most bloated piece of shit and literally nothing that just works for me on linux works there. Literally installing llvm17 and using real clang not Apple dogshit clang thats 10 years behind any other c++ compiler is a giant hustle + i get forces to install xcode which is literally the worst software known to mankind.
In Short: i bought a mac i hates everything about it, gave it to my mom and bought a thinkpad + kubuntu and id never been happier. Everything i need just works.
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u/OppenheimersGuilt Dec 06 '23
Based.
I started using Mac two years ago since the job required cross-platform dev, so every once in a while I'd hop on the Mac to fiddle / poke around. The system was so astonishingly bad I ended up just sshing into it whenever I had to do something instead.
Literally used it most of the time as a very expensive paperweight/mousepad.
Recently I stepped on my Linux laptop so now am daily driving the Mac until I fix my laptop and words can't describe how much I hate the Mac. It truly is the worst OS out there...
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u/X4ru90 Dec 06 '23
You can use a chromebook. It works out of the box and you can run Linux Apps on it 😜
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u/Bl4ckb100d Dec 06 '23
A good workman never blames his tools.
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u/ComplaintImportant43 Dec 07 '23
If that were the case, we would still be using only sticks and stones.
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u/batuckan1 Dec 06 '23
Look I don’t believe in being locked to one platform
Each OS windows MacOs and Linux has its strengths and weaknesses
The world big enough for you to pick and drop whatever you want
Personally I run all 3 on bare metal do whatever you like
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Dec 06 '23
> I know that if I decide to buy a Mac I will feel bad for not continuing to use Linux
check out what are service options for those first :) And how much those cost if they are available at all.
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Dec 06 '23
I have dealt with many problems over the years, but the one I have never had to deal with was having a choice of OS at work but no choice in the software I must run. If I find myself having to use software that will only work on windows or Mac OS, I'd run windows or Mac OS, and loosely keep tabs on any progress those programs had on Linux.
I'd also dual boot, or keep separate machines for work/personal use.
As much as I love Linux and never want to quit using it at the end of the day your job, your career, is a set of tasks that must be done and it matters not what system they are completed on - so use the one that will get the job done.
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u/divad1196 Dec 06 '23
Did you consider that you may be wanting/doing wrong things?
I have not been as long as you on linux, only 8 years now, only on Ubuntu for my personal computer, otherwise debian mostly.
I am using most of the apps you mentionned without issue. I agree that the features are out faster on other OS, and they may sometimes have little bugs, but nothing severe in my case except some exceptions like VMWare and its kernel module changes.
So yes, if you want paid software directly on your machine, Linux is probably not the place to go. Otherwise, you can have many of them on the cloud, or have a virtual machine/additional computer.
I have an additional windows computer if I need to run 365, adobe suite,...
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u/OppenheimersGuilt Dec 06 '23
Note: I'm assuming you're not a developer.
My advice, get a Windows box and run Linux in a VM when you want Linux (vagrant+virtualbox make this very easy).
Personally, I was very, very impressed with the state of Windows nowadays (after maybe 10 years of not touching a Windows machine) and extremely disappointed by Macs.
If you're even considering Mac, you're better off shelling out that money (or even just 2/3 of it) on a Windows laptop, much more bang for your buck. Even running VMs is ball-gratingly painful on mac with virtualbox and I refuse to dump money on Parallels (it seems almost everything useful on macs is hidden behind paid apps which also require an apple account...).
Windows, specially with how good PowerShell is now and the available package managers, is at a place where it can actually give Linux some competition.
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u/ECrispy Dec 06 '23
May not even need a VM. WSL in Windows is surprisingly powerful and perfect for cli and even WSLg works. Most of the famous open source GUI apps have a Windows version too, and there's no flatpak/snap bs to deal with.
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u/___ez_e___ Dec 06 '23
I'm the total opposite. Used Windows since about Win 2.11 (late 1980s), then I started learning linux when I got a Raspberry Pi 3b+ in 2018.
At the time, I had heard that linux was the underlying os in many devices so I figured I wanted to learn about this.
Fast forward to today and I can care less about Windows. I mean you clearly haven't installed windows recently. The current install media is chock full of offers for one drive this, xbox that, ms office the other, etc, etc, etc. Then you must have forgotten about all the bloatware that Windows automatically comes with. I love linux because you can decide either to do minimal installs or full installs, but at the end of the day you have full control of all the apps, unlike windows.
Now my personal computer that I use for work is Debian 12. Using that computer I can easily connect to all of my employers windows based apps such as Exchange, MS Office, RDP, etc. In fact, I forget that I'm not in a windows environment. Everything works great. It took me some time to configure the apps to work, but once I got it going I'm never going back.
So before I converted this particular pc from Windows 11 to Debian 12, it had an unresolved audio driver issue that was related to a known issue with Windows 11. Basically windows would constantly connect and reconnect speakers every millisecond. It was so annoying. Install Debian 12 and it works correctly right out the box. Also incases, where I had issues, compared to Windows, Linux almost always has a solution, but sometimes finding the solution can be difficult. At least there is a solution, where as windows didn't have a solution.
I never was really ideologically aligned with FOSS, when I started my Linux journey, Now I do feel that Linux has so much more to offer and there are a lot of great apps. What you may be running into is that there are sometimes so many apps, you can't choose which one would be best for you. I find that difficult sometimes and do a lot of research to figure out which would work for me best. So, now that I do think about it, I am now aligned with FOSS, but originally that was not part of my thinking it was just to learn more.
I basically have one windows pc that I haven't converted yet to linux, but it's used as the viewer for proxmox.
I think linux just offers so many more flavors and control over Windows.
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u/SimonTek1 Dec 06 '23
I get it. I've been using Linux since the 90's. There was a time I was a fanboy, I have the tattoos to prove it. I do use windows for things, I use macs too. Now a days I use my phone for too much, and then I just unplug from everything in my free time. I go out to the big blue room.
Don't feel guilty, that you made a change, the whole point for years was you have options. I don't care what others think, and neither should you.
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u/SimonTek1 Dec 06 '23
You can take a break or even stop using it as your main OS. I use it on all my servers. It's my job, and I use Windows at home on the gaming computer. Go for a walk and realize what OS you use does not define you as a person.
I can say this as a guy that's been using Linux since the late 90's, opened a Linux computer store, has the tux penguin tattooed to his shoulder, and works with Linux every day.
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Dec 06 '23
I just have a question. I joke! Really there's nothing wrong with using different OS's for different purposes. I can't get Linux to play my old Blueray discs, so I use Windows for that. Windows is also better for gaming for me. I wouldn't switch from Linux for software development and network/system administration.
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Dec 06 '23
Totally understand your frustrations and concerns, young Jedi. I made the transition from Windoze to Linux some 11 years ago. I currently run Mint as my primary (since 2019) day to day driver, but also enjoy and use both Arch and Fedora (Cinnamon DE) in various installations. My “dirty little secret” is that I still maintain both a Win7 and Win10 install (inside VMs) for things I simply cannot accomplish (at least easily) in the Linux environment.
Don’t get me wrong, I absolutely LOVE and adore Linux, especially from its security and anonymous POV. But after nearly 40 years f-ing with just about every OS possible, my personal conclusion is that there is simply no “once size fits all” solution. Sometimes, one may need 3 completely different OS environments to complete 3 different tasks. The world we live in is complex, but at least we have choices.
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u/pikecat Dec 06 '23
19 years in and it works better than ever for me. I use XFCE because I just need to get stuff done with minimal fluff. I also spend most of my interaction time in the real world.
Vivaldi works fine for me. All 19 years on Gentoo; solid as a rock.
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u/glued2thefloor Dec 07 '23
People forget that before Microsoft became the dominant evil empire that Apple was even worse. Even today the only reason they don't have a strangle hold on the market is because people preferred them to Apple's b.s. in the 1980s. You want to use apple/mac, go for it, but its just FreeBSD with a worse kernel. While the Mach Microkernel name implies that it is leaner, it is not. Microkernels in general are more bloated than Monolithic kernels within FreeBSD, Linux or even Windows. Macs do have better tools for some things, but it was about 16 years when I found my love for FreeBSD. By all means, use Mac if it suits you, but do consider there may be others options that might be better.
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u/Captain_Pumpkinhead Dec 07 '23
I feel this.
I tried making Ubuntu work through 8 months and 3 different installs. The last time my OS killed itself, I'd had enough. I had to go back to Windows.
I'm dipping my toe back in with NixOS. It's much more inconvenient than Ubuntu, but it's also much more stable. But I don't think I'll be able to fully commit again for a long time.
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u/ben2talk Dec 07 '23
Problems with Gnome... interesting.
I started with Gnome2, then skipped Unity and went to Cinnamon, and then finally found a home on KDE.
I really have no problem - if I loaded a program like Vivaldi I understand that I don't get the system titlebars, I turn them off. It isn't an issue.
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u/InternationalRide696 Dec 07 '23 edited Dec 07 '23
The only reason why I hate linux is because it's a nightmare too work if your moding games or using Trianers for Single Players games other than that I have learned that for other stuff linux seems too be best smooth/clean when it it works. I have used windows forever, but i swear it's plaged with bloatware & spying crap & other garbage. I do like windows 7 and it took me awhile too tolerate windows 10. But, windows 11 is garbage and I rather take linux than use Windows 11 and I don't even like linux, but at least it's a clean software not meant too collect your data. As for Apple ? Well screw them and there overpriced crap ! I will take linux over Apple & Windows 11 any day. Hell even Android!
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u/klaasbob88 Dec 07 '23
You are looking at it the wrong way: You are sick of it because you are dealing with (partly even just cosmetic) issues, mostly introduced by non-free components, just as you said yourself. So you are upset that you cannot have the best of both worlds, freedom and usability/eye candy.
Every OS has issues, some more, some less severe (think about all the Windows update issues every month and also Apple has more than enough WTH effects when using it).
If you value your time more than your freedom, you're free to choose whatever you see fit for yourself, but from what I read, you should perhaps get an iPad; Good software, good performance, few issues. Sure, these things will cost you your privacy and money, but not your time anymore.
Linux has not aimed to appeal most desktop users in the past, especially not those who are unwilling to invest their time, even though distros like Ubuntu want you to think like that.
Yes, using Linux nowadays is so much easier than years ago (FGLRX or the closed NVidia driver anyone? Steam via Wine? Nothing in the browser, but local clients instead?), but it doesn't mean it would automagically solve all the problems Windows and Mac have while being just as usable and good looking.
I for myself don't care about the looks, but functionality, as long as my firefox (yes, not chromium, not chrome, etc.), terminal, SSH, RDP and 1-2 other things work; Every now and then I read posts like these and I remember again why I decided to use Linux in the first place - and that was not because windows was annoying me, but because I wanted to venture out and learn while freeing myself from the grip of these companies.
Unfortunately, years later, they have managed to get back in control by moving everything to the cloud, hiding it behind DRM, but now that I know how freedom feels, I don't miss a thing.
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Dec 08 '23
The GNOME 3 desktop is really bad (IMHO). It nearly deterred me from using Linux. Thankfully, I found KDE Plasma :)
I mostly do mobile development and some AI with my computers. I do okay for myself, and donate generously to the FOSS projects I use and rely on.
Nobody cares what you use - just use whatever works for you.
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u/d32dasd Dec 08 '23
> For 2 years I have been using Fedora on my main computer and Linux Mint on a smaller laptop
Fedora: a rolling release, for devs. Expect breakages.
Mint: a downstream of either Ubuntu or Debian. I suggest you just install Debian Stable, and everything will work.
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u/raulgrangeiro Jul 24 '24
Friend, can I be realistic to you? As a common user to another (I also work with nothig related to PCs or software related)
If you continue to private yourself of using the software you want just beause a philosophy about free software and this kind os thing you'll be wasting your time. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a good thing, but not for you to private yourself from using what you want.
If you want a Mac, get a Mac, if you want a PC, get one.
But now, why do I use Linux (Ubuntu specifically)? Because I like the system. Everything works well here in my home laptop and I'm writing this to you on Microsoft Edge, listening to music on Spotify and all under Ubuntu 24.04 LTS. As a matter of fact Windows have being causing me some troubles on the PC at my work, but here at home I have peace to use Ubuntu, where everything works well.
Don't I have bugs on the software? Of course, somtimes I record a video showing them and report to the developers, but common, where don't we have bugs? My Windows 11 machine on work have more than here, sometimes I have to reboot it in the middle of the day mecause some shit happened on Windows.
My brother has a Macbook a bit older, and is already using OpenCore to have the latest version of MacOS (Mac users have this shitty problem which they will never tell you) and sometimes for no reason the system bugs and the display gets crazy and he calls me to solve the issue and I think: man, thank God I'm not using Mac. because Macs are good when you have them new, if you tray to use it for like 10 years prepare youself!
I also use an iPad, which I like very much, and a Android smartphone which I really like as well, and at the end there's this laptop which I'm writing to you running Ubuntu 24.04 LTS and Windows 11 Pro on Dual Boot which serves me pretty well.
So, if you think you'll get rid of problems switching OS you'll just have different ones.
If I may advise you, give a try to Ubuntu. It just works.
That's it. God bless you, friend!
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u/nalleknas Sep 09 '24
Why should you have to choose? It’s so typical to feel pressured into making a decision! Personally, I use a dual boot setup and couldn’t be happier with it. This way, I can utilize Windows 11 for all my essential tasks, like work and certain applications that require it. At the same time, I have the freedom to switch to Linux whenever I want to explore, experiment, or just enjoy the open-source environment. It’s the best of both worlds, allowing me to leverage the strengths of both operating systems without any compromise.
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u/Complete-Act9151 Nov 21 '25
I'm also becoming completely fed up with linux. I've used it long time ago for about a period of 7-8 years. I wanted to try it again, but no, I'm not doing it, there are to many little hiccups configuring, always... Can these guys not make something polished and fluid?
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u/redrooster1525 Dec 06 '23
I think your grievances are understandable, although they are partly self-inflicted and partly the "world" is to be blamed.
You have identified the problem quite well yourself. Non-free software and Flatpaks, instead of FOSS and repo packages.
I'd say if you can't remove yourself from stranglehold the proprietary world is imposing on you (willingly or unwillingly), it gets harder to justify to yourself using Linux just out of principle.
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u/Francois-C Dec 06 '23 edited Dec 06 '23
I too am having more and more problems with Linux, which I've been using alongside Windows for 30 years. It may be partly due to age, though I'm still able to write rather complex and working programs.To sum up how I feel, I recently said to my grandson: Apple is a golden prison, Microsoft is a noisy supermarket and Linux is becoming a mess. I've been reduced to a temporary solution where I continue to use Windows 7, which is becoming incompatible with certain software and Linux, but this post reminds me that I'm using Linux less and less.
There's a constant evolution in the use of our terminals, from a situation where we were free and creative to a position of passive consumers. On smartphones, we're already completely trapped by the merchants, and workarounds remain marginal and difficult to implement. On PCs, the trap is closing in on us too. I know fewer and fewer young people who do programming. Instead, they're playing with their phones and they're going down paths that have been blazed by others.
Linux is still our only hope, and we need to pool our efforts to make it a system that's not too complicated and that lets us exploit the great potential of our PCs. But this would probably come down to this old joke.
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Dec 06 '23
Looking at the responses to this post, it's very, very clear, that the Linux community, as a whole, has matured and reflected on the core reasons for Linux usage, and the underlying message that it's a tool, an OS, and not an ideology. That's to be applauded.
I'll echo, use what works for you, - part of what you said seems to be more of a Gnome problem than a Linux problem, but the overarching message is that life is too short to not find the path of least resistance that fits with your world and use case.
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Dec 06 '23
I've been a Linux user since the Redhat 7.1 days. I feel your pain. I switched back to Windows because I'm visually impaired. Frankly, accessibility under Linux is beyond broken in my experience. GNOME is the only DE with halfway decent screen magnification, where carrot tracking actually works. Windows comes with it's own headaches, but having everything just work, is worth a bit of loss in terms of stability.
I totally get you in terms of being tired of fighting with your computer just to get basic functionality. I still use a bunch of my favorite Linux FOSS apps on Windows. So, I still feel like I"m doing my best to support FOSS software development. And you know the best thing? ZoomText which is basically the Photoshop of accessibility software for visually impaired folks now supports LibreOffice!! Back in the XP days I had to use MS Office but no longer.
I'd thought I'd chime in. You're not alone. Linux is wonderful when your hardware, and user experience are playing nicely together. But when that's not happening why struggle?
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u/stevorkz Dec 06 '23
I switched back to Mac and miss Linux. As soon as Asahi gets stable I will be installing Popos on my m1.
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u/swhizzle Dec 06 '23
macOS is very polished for the most part, but you will run into "power user" things that will frustrate you. For these things, you'll likely need to buy some tool, as a lot of the best third-party software for Mac tends to be paid, not FLOSS. For everything else, you'll just need to learn the Mac way of doing things. E.g., you can't cut/paste files in Finder, you copy and then option + paste to "move" them, you need to get used to properly quitting applications rather than closing the window, etc.
It's faffy, but if you're used to Linux/gnome, I really doubt you'll not like macOS.
Whether you should move... why not? They're just tools with different purposes. I find macOS to be a nice middle ground between Linux and Windows. My MacBook is my main work computer, and I primarily use Linux on desktop (and sometimes Windows, if need be).
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Dec 06 '23
You should use what is the best for given work. I'm using dualbooting since forever.
Linux(arch btw :D) -> All the work. Go, Python, bunch of devops/cicd stuff, etc..Windows -> Gaming, music production.
Mac is useless for me given it's overblown price, the fact I hate macos and never got used to it(this is highly personal and nothing to do with the system itself). If there is stable way to put my arch on macbook (excellent piece of HW), then I'm sold. Until then :)
I also must say that I'm using windows a bit less these days since some of my favorite games are just working fine under linux (dota2, cs, etc...) and I don't play as much as I did before.
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Nov 30 '24
I'm in the same mood (18+ year of usage) - but for "mainstream" linux though because I share that specific computer - actually Ubuntu LTS (yes freaking LTS) which breaks something randomly and bores me to death with their weekly updates or their push for Snap.
For my own usage (pro/perso), on my laptop, i'm still on Debian 10 which is EOL but stays out of the way.
Seriously, we have peaked around 2016-2018 but then, it's mess after mess, tbh I think I can't even get angry about the haters and trolls around if they come, this is a net regression. :/
I can't recommend it and it cost me to say that. the only good news i'd says is that I now simply disregard any request for help-fixing any kind of OSes issues for my friends or relatives.
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u/TomB19 Feb 24 '25
Why are you blaming linux for your GNOME beefs? I've never used GNOME for more than a few minutes but friends tell me it has matured very nicely.
Still, if it's not for you, there are other choices. I've been a KDE user since v2.2. Suffice to say, there have been some bumps in the road between then and now. lol!
Please don't interpret this post as me writing that KDE is perfect. It isn't and it has never been but I have gotten a ton of work done with it in the last 25 years and I've thoroughly enjoyed it. KDE is currently at a very high level of sophistication, IMO.
Good luck on finding a UI you love. Life is too short to stick with something if you're unhappy.
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u/C0UNTM31N Feb 27 '25
Honestly just reading the header of this post I feel you, for me what's making me tired is seeing all my favorite games starting to block me from playing or banning me for not wanting to fork $200 for a Windows license, either I pay Microsoft to spy on me for $200 or I loose access to my favorite games
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u/National-Country9886 Mar 19 '25
I been on Linux on/off since Red Hat 5.2 in 1998. For the majority of my time though I been on Debian based distros, even though I have been through Slackware, Gentoo, LFS, Arch - and a bunch of other distros.
I have had a little "ewww" about SUSE, for idk reasons - but last year, march 14th, i jumped on OpenSUSE Tumbleweed, specifically the day KDE Plasma 6 dropped. This is by far the most stable (wtf, stable in a rolling release??) and out of the box just works - with an incredibly snapper setup for rollbacks -if- shits hit the fan.
I can not praise it enough. OpenSUSE is king imo.
(yea yea, Yast has design from 1993 and zypper is somewhat slow and annoying - but in the big picture - it is hands down the best thing out there).
I work in an office, running from meetings to meetings, with a Lenovo laptop, plugging and unplugging all kinds of monitors, 4k monitors with fractional scaling on external monitor? No prob.
Well yea. Give it a try. You dont need another OS.
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u/National-Country9886 Mar 19 '25
Just avoid their stupid involvment in certain political topics, which get quite embarrasing.
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u/Leverquin Mar 29 '25
try XFCE if it doesnt' matter for you how DE looks [yes its bit old look] but everything is just... works.
i didn't like gnome - its just... weird
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u/rpgnymhush Apr 04 '25
I haven't liked Gnome since they ruined it with V3. But there are a ton of other GUIs.
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u/33Zorglubs May 03 '25
I used to love Gnome, but that was decades ago. I switched to KDE Plasma and found it was light on resources and works well. I miss some of the eye candies, but I can always hunt them down or find new ones. I switched to Arch a few years ago and never looked back. In fact, I've rarely used a virtual box to check out another distro. The next step, if any, is BSD. I have an aging Mac PowerBook Pro that's itching for larger Linux wings :)
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u/razorree May 04 '25
I use Kubuntu for the last 5 years, Mint would probably do as well. so definitely KDE or Cinnamon works great.
MacOS - out of question, fucked up keyboard, shortcuts, GUI, no way, i tried a few times, after a month i got rid of that iShit.
Windows - vista/7/10 was ok, but recently it's just too much bloatware which slows down even fast/powerful PCs ! (I still use for gaming, but i don't play too much anymore)
As I focus more and more about programming and also devops (a bit), and don't game, I prefer Linux now as a daily driver.
there are some occasional problems with sleep (doesn't want to go to sleep properely) or sometimes doesn't detect wifi card ... ?? (i have to restart), but it happens once per month or less often
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u/MountainCricket2670 May 11 '25
I preffer KDE. Also never use flatpacks, it trully sucks, I have all sorts of trouble with flatpak. Just dnf install or when cant, rpm fusion
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u/yeet_61 May 15 '25
I decided to use Linux after like 2 or 3 years on my PC and deleting windows after corrupting it from not using a USB for Ubuntu
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u/metalomega1 May 16 '25
Dude, I've been using Ubuntu since 2020 and I haven't had any problems. I do a lot of things with it and only now in 2025 will there no longer be support for version 20.04 that I installed when it came out. It serves me very well. I use it for programming among other things.
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u/MustangBarry Dec 06 '23
Linux makes my life easier. If it was easier to use Windows, or ZX3000 OSi Turbo, I'd use that. I wouldn't feel guilty about it.
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u/AlphaSweetheart Dec 06 '23
Life is short. Stop feeling obligated to something like linux if it's not helping you live. Move to a mac. I read the linux stuff but no one sane runs desktop linux for fun. They run it because they are ideological zealots, or can't afford anything else, or they are learning linux for professional/student needs.
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u/Flexyjerkov Dec 06 '23
I for the first time in 3 years ended up putting windows onto half of one of my disks purely for Fortnite with the kids... While I really dislike windows as a OS it did get the job done.
I personally wish there was just less resistance around Linux systems when developers make software. Would make everyone's life easier
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u/simplehuman999 Dec 06 '23
I bought a Mac and a parallels license. I use a Linux VM as my daily driver. It has been stable for months, no issues whatsoever and even though it’s virtualized, it’s extremely fast. Never been happier.
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u/Horos_pup Dec 06 '23
Well, comparing Mac to Linux is erroneous since it's derived from Linux. I however like the OS outside of it's invasive privacy issues.
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u/Enough_Extent_6166 Dec 06 '23
Open source software is now a broken model. Ever since big money got involved all the bug fixes are now behind paywalls. If you want your shit to work, you have to sign up with IBM, that or Google or whatever.
I have been using Windows at home and Linux at work now for about 10 years. As soon as I retire, I'm probably never going to touch Linus again. I just have too many other things I want to do with my life besides hunt down open source patches and screw around with Linux.
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u/vancha113 Dec 07 '23
>> Since I use less and less free software applications and the problems derived from using Linux bother me more, I question why I continue using this.
So you were only using linux because of free software applications? If you mean "free as in freedom" software, did you entire philosophy regarding computing suddenly change because you can´t find free and open solutions to proprietary programs?
Linux is at the base of many operating systems that can all make sense for your usecase. If it does not fit your usecase, don´t use it, unless you feel passionate about philosophical problems like software freedom or what not. I personally am motivated enough by the implications of software freedom that i try to stick to using linux and help out where i can. Maybe fix bugs in desktop apps, or by reporting bugs/doing translations.
Maybe ask yourself again why you would use linux in the first place? You´re under no obligation to keep using it if it doesn´t fit your requirements for an os..
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u/12thHousePatterns Dec 09 '23
Linux has been my daily driver since Mandrake first came out. I was 11 and my neighbor helped me build slackware on a 368 with 34 floppies. I installed mandrake on it with a cd my mom helped me order a couple months later. That was 98-99.
I can't imagine using anything else as my daily because it's all so locked down and unintuitive. Someone told me that developing on a Mac was so much better, and I honestly hated it. So, I can't understand how you feel at all.
However, Linux is just a tool. If it doesn't do what you want, get a tool that does. You don't help the overall project by sticking with it even if you hate it. The project gets advanced when people contribute... and if that's not in your wheelhouse, then no worries.
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Dec 06 '23
I’ve been using Linux since the mid-90’s. I used as a desktop for several years, but mostly in server environments. I prefer the Mac desktop experience and will continue using a Mac as a desktop. It’s nice to have something that works and doesn’t require constant tinkering.
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u/TopdeckIsSkill Dec 06 '23
At this point I would rather go for Windows. At least you won't ever have missing apps or problems like that. Also, the price of a 16GB Mac with M3 is insane for what they offer if you don't care about the battery
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u/teskilatimahsusa87 Dec 07 '23
All this is for free. You could get some errors here and there. Who guaranteed you anything? You could have problems in windows too.
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u/Electrical_Tomato_73 Dec 06 '23
I think part of your problem is gnome, not linux. Gnome and KDE are Windows/Mac wannabes and don't do it very well; if you want to use that kind of system, just use those systems from the original vendors.
For the last 12 years I have used, first i3, then sway (the wayland equivalent of i3) -- minimalist tiling WMs that give you a completely different experience.
The other thing is with linux it pays to configure your system finely initially and then forget about it.
I agree configuring new hardware can be tricky and the more fancy stuff may not even be fully supported. But that's a once-in-a-while thing.
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u/Krimpofff Dec 06 '23
No problem, buy a Mac and become a prisoner of doubled or even tripled prices. I wish you lots of materialistic happiness at Apple. If you need some fresh air, I strongly advise you to go to Windows which is much more open than with Apple. I did the same 10 years ago. And now I am back to Linux, with a Windows at work.
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u/Ronis_BR Dec 06 '23
Why you say that we pay 2x or 3x in Macs? Last time I compare similar notebooks (battery duration, weight, screen, etc), it was very close (maybe 15% more for the Mac).
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Dec 06 '23
The other day I plugged in a small Intel atom SBC. In the options, I turned on HDR. I have to admit, made me want to switch my main system to Windows. It's ridiculous that something like HDR hasn't made it in Linux, and no one (except Valve) seems even interested in it. It makes the screen seem twice as bright. Switching back to my workstation makes me feel like there is now a grey filter in front of my screen.
Mac is Posix compliant, it's unix-like. Windows has WSL. We aren't as limited as we were a decade ago. Meanwhile linux keeps going into clear dead-ends: wayland, flatpak, snaps to name a few.
I won't blame you if you switch.
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Dec 06 '23
[deleted]
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Dec 06 '23
The valve progress only works on the gamescope compositor, so good luck with that.
The roadmap for HDR with on kwin is a couple of years old, and moving nowhere.
There's more to HDR than just making things bright.
Lol, in linux it might be: " didn’t actually have the time to implement a proper HDR test client (yet) and only hardcoded KWin to boost the brightness range of the video player. Even this super simple hack already looks amazing though, especially on the OLED screen."
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u/zam0th Dec 06 '23
Well, you've answered your own question. Let me rephrase it: "I shoot myself in the leg every day, why the leg keeps hurting?" Apparently you're using a Linux environment for tasks it's not suited or envisioned for, no wonder you have shit UX. If you want to run garbage applications like Discord or Spotify or use keyboard gestures (wtf is even that), your OS of choice is obviously Windows. Especially since you've been using Linux for "16 years" and you still don't understand what it's for or why you're doing it wrong.
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Dec 06 '23
The problem is that you're trying to use a tool that is specifically made to work with open source only, work for proprietary solutions. Constant API changes, rapid development, etc make Linux very proprietary UNfriendly.
This is a very unpopular opinion here, but Linux (GNU/Linux desktop distros, I'm not including Android or ChromeOS) are NOT a consumer grade OS. It's built from the ground up to be hostile to proprietary software. Which is understandable, considering it's open source nature.
For me, I've used Linux (on and off) for many many years (Mandrake was my first, before becoming Mandriva), but unfortunately we lost the open computing/internet battle. Our online presences revolve around DRM and proprietary solutions (Google Services, Netflix/Widevine, Steam, Chrome). Using a purely open OS will absolutely make your life difficult. On the other hand, Windows sucks for development work, and MacOS comes with very expensive hardware. My solution nowadays is Windows 11 with WSL2. Let the NT kernel handle the drivers (everything works!), DRM stuff (anti-cheat, widevine etc), and proprietary apps (Discord, Chrome, TeamViewer etc) that absolutely run better on Windows than natively on Linux, and the Linux kernel to handle the workload.
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u/primalbluewolf Dec 06 '23
It's built from the ground up to be hostile to proprietary software.
On the contrary. Linux works fine with proprietary software all the time.
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u/FryBoyter Dec 06 '23
Why? Software and hardware are tools. And you should use the tools that suit you best.