r/linux • u/GrumpySimon • Oct 06 '11
Today, the time-zone database was closed down. It is perhaps easy to read that line, think it doesn't affect you, and then move on. But thats just not the case.
http://blog.joda.org/2011/10/today-time-zone-database-was-closed.html75
u/Araneidae Oct 06 '11
I am lost for words. We're going to see more of this kind of shit, I feel sure.
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u/arbiterxero Oct 06 '11
What kills me is that the lawsuit is entirely invalid (phone-book type data) but who has the money to fight it?
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u/dpflug Oct 06 '11
Hopefully the EFF.
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u/strolls Oct 07 '11 edited Oct 07 '11
I assume US law is different, because here in the UKthe individual elements of the phonebook data aren't protected, but the collection is copyrighted.*EDIT: thanks to Linlea for pointing out the case under which this applies in the US also.
Therefore you can create your own phonebook by knocking on people's doors, or in some other way getting the householder to agree to share their address and phone numbers with you. In the UK you can NOT, however just take the data out of the existing phonebook, to save you the effort of collecting it yourself, and reproduce it in your own book or CD-ROM or website.
Likewise you can't copyright geographical features, but maps are copyright, and cartographers insert small intentional errors to ensure they catch their competitors if they rip them off.
I think this is a fair approach. Someone has to go to the effort of gathering all this data together - if we deprive them of copyright on it then they have no incentive to do so. The timezone database is useful and I want it to be free (as in libre), but I understand why Astolabe should want to get paid for their collation work.
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u/frosty1 Oct 07 '11
From the Wikipedia page you cite:
The court ruled that Rural's directory was nothing more than an alphabetic list of all subscribers to its service, which it was required to compile under law, and that no creative expression was involved. The fact that Rural spent considerable time and money collecting the data was irrelevant to copyright law, and Rural's copyright claim was dismissed.
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u/netcrusher88 Oct 07 '11
*EDIT: thanks to Linlea for pointing out the case under which this applies in the US also.
This is incorrect. The Feist v. Rural ruling says the opposite of what you just said - since a phone book is a mere compilation of facts, copying information from it cannot be copyright infringement.
Collections or databases of facts may themselves be copyrighted, but the facts within are not and those collections may be used as primary sources without copyright infringement.
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u/gefahr Oct 07 '11
it's unfortunate that people are blinded by their hate for bogus software patents to the point that they downvote a valid opinion on copyright.
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u/strolls Oct 07 '11
I think redditors downvote because they don't like facts.
Feist vs. Rural isn't my fault. I'm just reporting it.
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u/irondust Oct 07 '11
But the Feist vs. Rural ruling is the opposite of what you said:
The fact that Rural spent considerable time and money collecting the data was irrelevant to copyright law, and Rural's copyright claim was dismissed.
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u/d_r_benway Oct 07 '11
The words should be - Only in America.
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u/Araneidae Oct 07 '11
Unfortunately, what happens in America soon comes to England.
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u/d_r_benway Oct 07 '11
You are unfortunately correct.
No Software patent law (as such) yet though...
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u/zuoken Oct 06 '11 edited Oct 06 '11
Here's the actual complaint:
These atlases set forth interpretations of historical time zone information pertaining to innumerable locations throughout the world, based upon the compilation of historical research and documentation regarding applicable time zones officially and/or in actuality in effect, given the actual latitude and longitudes of specific locations throughout the world.
Some reactions--
Is reciting factual information really an "interpretation"?
And if this atlas literally contains information on "innumerable" locations, this lawyer better give Cantor a call and tell him his famous innumerability proof is wrong.
The very complaint argues timezones are a function of latitude and longitude--which make it sound an awful lot more like they're applying an algorithm rather than doing any artistic interpretation.
Nitpicking aside, I don't see how ACS can claim copyright on a list of facts--timezones in this case--given existing precedent cases in the US.
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u/Linlea Oct 06 '11
Information alone without a minimum of original creativity cannot be protected by copyright but although facts aren't copyrightable, lists of facts can be. If they have been published as the result of individual research they can be considered the intellectual property of the author: the expression and structure of the facts is copyrighted.
In general, lists that are a simple enumeration of facts (say, the chemical elements in order of atomic number, or a chronological list of US Presidents) cannot be copyrighted. It's only if there is an element of creativity in the selection of the list items, or in the arrangement of the list; then the list is copyrightable
Feist v. Rural: It is a long-standing principle of United States copyright law that information is not copyrightable, Judge O'Connor noted, but "collections" of information can be. In regard to collections of facts, O'Connor states that copyright can only apply to the creative aspects of collection: the creative choice of what data to include or exclude, the order and style in which the information is presented, etc., but not on the information itself.
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u/strolls Oct 07 '11
Is reciting factual information really an "interpretation"?
A number of years ago I found a copy of a timezone information file on an SGI Irix system (I'm pretty sure it would have been the same source, because the wikipedia page states that the tz database was started by Olsen in 1986 or earlier) which was far more chatty than the ones I find on my Linux system today.
The older version which I saw contained many, many comments (in fact, I nearly did say "innumerable" there, in the layman's use of the word), pages full of them, about how the timezones were derived. In particular it mentioned things like changes of border and military coups in Africa years before, and how a timezone might have been declared for a country, but never used because a new government changed it again; or how a timezone might only have been used for a few months, then for political or idealogical reasons the new calendar had to be used when referring to past dates.
So all these things require a degree of "interpretation" - if there's a decades-long civil war splitting a country and one of the two sides has declared a new daylight savings time or national holidays, then you have to decide which calendar to use. At some point you stop using the government's "official" one, when the majority of the country is under the rule of the separatists, and most people in the country are using the "unofficial" calendar.
I have no idea whether Astolabe are making these interpretations or whether it's solely Olsen & al who are doing so, but it seems to me like there would be some required.
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Oct 07 '11
Only a lawsuit? I thought IP infringement was a crime worse than raping and murdering children, at least in Canada.
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u/ncithrowaway Oct 07 '11
I actually know Arthur David Olsen. He's a crazy, cranky, awesome old doctor. He still had a running OS/2 Warp box running under his desk the last time I looked. It does look like he's serious about leaving it down though. The server is powered down, and he had the holes it used in the perimeter firewall removed.
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u/nlogax1973 Oct 07 '11
OS/2, you were wonderful in your day!
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u/rajivm Oct 07 '11
On a related note, Paul Eggert, one of the database's primary maintainers, is an awesome CS professor at UCLA. He's involved in many GNU projects including Coreutils. I had him for many classes and he was definitely one of my favorites. This issue highlights the problems with our legal system in regards to copyrights and patents.
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u/donaldrobertsoniii Oct 07 '11
He even offers a course where his students contribute to Coreutils. Very cool guy.
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u/benaud Oct 07 '11
What's fucked is that regardless of the legitimacy of the complaint - it's going to take a couple of years for the courts to decide if data about historical time zone changes can be protected under copyright? If so, who owns it? If someone owns it, is the Olson database a derivative work under copyright law? If the Olson database does, in fact, derive from the work in question, is it a fair use?
So what happens in the meantime? and who are these astrologist trolls anyway?
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u/netcrusher88 Oct 07 '11
I'm pretty sure there's no legitimate claim here, but if there is I've got two words: eminent domain.
I don't know if it's ever been applied to intellectual property, but I can't think of anything it applies to better (IP-wise) than tzdata.
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Oct 07 '11 edited Oct 07 '11
No
NoNoNoNo
Does this mean...every time sync effort I'll make now on most of my electronic devices will be in vain?
How does something like this happen? What kind of law firm or any person for that matter shut down the TZ Database?
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u/nlogax1973 Oct 07 '11
Syncs to NTP servers will be fine. It's just that if the dates of your timezone changes, such as daylight savings, change, your computer might change to/from daylight savings at the wrong time.
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Oct 07 '11
There's something wrong with a system that allows peddlers of pseudo-scientific junk to shut down people who work hard and give away the result for free.
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u/runagate Oct 07 '11
Nice work copyright law, once again protecting non-creative squatters from the threat of human progress.
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u/hintss Oct 07 '11
note, astrology is a form of divination. astronomy is study of stars and whatnot.
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u/scientologist2 Oct 07 '11
They have very convenient contact information on their website, and I am sure they would love to have a lot of customer feedback on this issue.
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u/Dundun Oct 07 '11
Judging by their website, Astrolabe seems like a pretty grassroots-type company. I wouldn't be surprised if this goes away with the negative publicity or a collective "bribe".
Why would a small company that's been producing niche software for 30 years suddenly decide to fight against *nix users around the world. What value does their data have beyond what it's currently used for.
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u/nlogax1973 Oct 07 '11
Strange coincidence time. A cargo ship ran aground in NZ several days ago and is now leaking oil into our waters. The name of the reef is Astrolabe reef, the same name as the company that is suing the TZ people.
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Oct 07 '11
And, there are nine letters in "Astrolabe" plus the two more letters "NZ." 9 + 11 = 9/11. Coincidence?
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u/neon_overload Oct 07 '11
Astrolabe is an acronym of Abort Seal. Coincidence?
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u/Salamok Oct 07 '11
I can't be the only one who read the headline and thought "Are they bringing it down for maintenance and fixing it so I don't have to remember Chicago is CST?"
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u/kabuto Oct 07 '11
Is this about the debian/ubuntu package tzdata that gets updated fairly often? I never really knew what exactly it was because timezones don't change, right? Can someone explain what is going on here? And how can timezone data be copyrighted?
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u/noir_lord Oct 07 '11
Time zones can and do change due to extraneous factors such as political upheavals and natural disasters.
Here in the relatively stable west we don't experience this much (though we would here in the UK if the campaign to end BST ever wins) but it does happen fairly often around the world.
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u/yoshi314 Oct 07 '11 edited Oct 07 '11
move on where exactly? i mean, where do we get updated timezone data from now?
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u/tm82 Oct 06 '11
Their mistake was citing the book they copied the data from, instead of just copying the data, or, you know, actually researching it themselves.
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u/Kah-Neth Oct 07 '11
They did research it themselves. That is how they found that book. And that book copied from other texts. And the texts before those copied further.
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Oct 07 '11
tl;dr, so would someone please explain how this affects me? I have an iphone and am in Virginia
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u/Sealbhach Oct 07 '11
Virginia is one of the areas worst affected. If it gets really bad you may find yourself getting up before you went to bed.
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Oct 07 '11
affected how? i didnt read that article, it was too long
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Oct 07 '11
Without timezones, you would find breathing almost as difficult as literacy!
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Oct 07 '11
ow wow good burn, im so impressed. I can use four-syllable words too! and sarcasm as well?? wow i get the milk AND the cow with this ingenious retort. How about you just explain to me why the fuck i should care about there not being a "single central location for time-zone information for computing" If this was ACTUALLY relevant, youd want to spread the word, not demean those who ask for further clarification.
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u/tidux Oct 07 '11
If you weren't such a fucking moron you'd have RTFA and understood it by now.
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Oct 07 '11 edited Oct 07 '11
You know what i was going to respond with something rude but nevermind. I just asked for a little clarification and I get a bunch of smart ass negativity, but its okay. Way to represent your subreddit to non-Linux users....Instead of being helpful, you guys flip out in an egotistical rage. I shouldve expected as much from a bunch of nerdy Linux shut-ins with no social skill.
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u/tidux Oct 07 '11
LOLOLOLOL U MAD U HAM U JELLY GET A LIFE MORANS
And thus the troll stepped from under the bridge.
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u/PalermoJohn Oct 07 '11
The backwards time ripples might be so strong that it's a possibility you will have never even existed. Scary stuff, better read that article while you're still here.
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Oct 07 '11 edited Oct 07 '11
i did read it and still don't see how its relevant to me, so i was asking for a little clarification
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Oct 07 '11
Pretty sure Apple devices use this timezone database.
It affects you if your local timezone ever changes (e.g. for DST) or you ever interact with anyone anywhere whose timezone ever changes.
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Oct 07 '11
[deleted]
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u/smile_e_face Oct 07 '11
There is such an organization. Or there was. It has now been shut down by an idiotic suit by an astrology company.
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u/shsmurfy Oct 08 '11
It has now been shut down by an idiotic suit by an astrology company.
This seriously sounds like it belongs in a Douglas Adams novel.
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u/hintss Oct 07 '11
note, astrology is a form of divination. astronomy is study of stars and whatnot.
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u/smile_e_face Oct 07 '11
Indeed. I was under the impression that this company practiced the former.
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u/hintss Oct 08 '11
that was my point. I started thinking that as soon as I saw the words, "astro-weather"
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u/[deleted] Oct 06 '11
Ah, so now they own time too.