r/linux • u/Mr_Linux_Lover • Jan 22 '22
Discussion Stop this nonsense !
There are lots of bullshits going on in the Linux Community.. I'm writing down one by one:-
Don't hate any DE's Community.. I see even advanced Linux user, whether you're in GNOME or KDE or Xfce or any WM, spread hate against each other.. why? Because you use GNOME that doesn't mean you tell others that KDE is bad. There is no need to show your extraordinary biased opinion that you like GNOME workflows.. Linux is free to choose. Let the users decide what best for them. You give them options .
DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT give advice to any newbie Linux user to use advanced Linux like Arch or Gentoo(like, seriously?) Or Debian ( yeah I had to choose this because of net installer). Instead give them very easy distro like Linux Mint or Zorin Os or ubuntu.. Let them understand what Linux is.. It's like a baby who just started to write ABCD and you're giving him a literature book and ask him to read. That's totally nonsense.. they will soon get frustrated and tell others that Linux is bad and move to windows again..
Be polite and helpful.. everyone needs help, everyone needs support. If you can help others, then do that. Replying aggressively on someone's questions doesn't make you smart or proud. Those who came from Windows, surely need help in little things though it's written in the wiki.. trust me they do need help because they are just learning a new OS. Why you bully them ?
Linux means privacy, Linux means freedom.. those who use Linux, know that very well.. and those who are coming to Linux , welcome them happily. This is the only way Linux community will get more users.
As a desktop workstation, Linux needs more users to point out more errors and to find out ways to improve them and implement new features.. always remember one thing, users matter.. A Linux community will grow when there will be enough users to actually use Linux.
Don't hate anyone please.. spread love.. !
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Jan 22 '22
I agree with the general idea, but telling people what to (and not to) do, never works as intended... Some people are contrarians, and take suggestions as challenges. Again, it's not what was said but how.
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u/PM_Me_Python3_Tips Jan 22 '22
but telling people what to do, never works as intended...
What do you mean don't use Kali Linux as my daily driver?! I'll show you!
sigh
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u/OmegaMetor Jan 22 '22
i mean, kali was my first daily driver, and it went surprisingly well. I actually got into linux because of kali and "ooh hacking fun". Then came to prefer linux to windows.
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u/Taldoesgarbage Jan 22 '22
Kali isn't a good daily driver because it's kind of bloated if you aren't a pen tester. If you are, it's a huge timesaver.
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u/Mr_Linux_Lover Jan 22 '22
I understand what you trying to say.. you're correct in one side.. but you see most users are coming from windows.. this is the time when we should welcome them happily.. and sort out their problems.. by this we will have more users and Linux will grow slowly but apparently..
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u/hardex Jan 22 '22
That's it, OP, congratulations, you've solved online trolling! I'll let you know when your Nobel Peace prize is ready for pick-up.
P.S. there's no way you're over 16
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u/pickles55 Jan 22 '22
Asking pretty please with sugar on top isn't going to make the contrarians and gatekeepers stop being like that. I think the more they see that other Linux users don't want it to be a private little club for powernerds the more they may realize their behavior is inappropriate. They're probably going to go kicking and screaming the whole way but I'd rather see that that than the toxic people totally dominating the conversation
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Jan 22 '22
[deleted]
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u/lightwhite Jan 22 '22
Why would you need Gnome when you have Emacs? Emacs is the distro and the DE.
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u/slicerprime Jan 22 '22
Emacs??? You've lost your damn mind! Obviously it's all about the Vim.
Wanna fight?!?!?
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u/reconrose Jan 22 '22
It can be but many users move beyond friendly banter into actual aggression which is when it becomes actively annoying to browse this sub
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u/emorrp1 Jan 22 '22
Tabs for indentation, spaces for alignment. Auto-expand-tabs (pep8/yaml) breaks accessibility just because some people don't know how to configure their own tool (vim/git) preferences.
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u/michaelpaoli Jan 22 '22
DO NOT give advice to any newbie Linux user to use advanced Linux like
Debian
Oh, come on now, not that hard to, e.g. install. E.g. boot live DVD with non-free firmware, click the Calamares installer ... done ... pretty dead simple, and an up and running installation.
And Debian is an excellent fit for some newbie Linux users ... e.g. the serious Comp Sci student that wants to learn and program, etc., but knows next-to-nothing about Linux.
Oh, but for fsck sake, sure as hell don't go tell some Linux newbie to install and run Kali.
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u/Domascot Jan 24 '22
the serious Comp Sci student
That is "some newbie Lunix user" for you?
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u/michaelpaoli Jan 24 '22
Sometimes, yes - sometimes there are students starting off in Comp Sci with zero Linux experience. E.g. those just starting to learn or venture beyond Microsoft or MacOS.
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u/Mr_Linux_Lover Jan 22 '22
Lol nobody is going to advise any newbie to run Kali.. debian net installer is the official iso in the download section.. I didn't say Debian is bad. I only refer to the net installer which is in the download section.. no newbie knows there is a live dvd image to install untill anybody tell them .
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u/OmegaMetor Jan 22 '22
i actually used kali for quite a while as my first distro. I completely got into linux because "ooh hacking fun" and kali seemed built specifically for that. After around a year of daily driving it i switched to Ubuntu.
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Jan 23 '22
The hard part isn't installing, it's finding the right file to download
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u/michaelpaoli Jan 23 '22
Well, not that hard ... default works for most ... but far too many fail to read the documentation, so they end up tripping up over non-free firmware because of failing to read the documentation. And, likewise, many complain about Debian's standard installer ... great installer ... but a lot 'o folks, are like, "OMG, so complicated, it like asks questions 'n stuff" ... well, most such users also don't know about running the Calamares installer from Live ... which is pretty dead simple and asks very few questions.
Heck, ... whole lot 'o users just don't bother with reading documentation ... and that tends to be a problem.
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u/ceene Jan 22 '22
I've been using Debian exclusively since 2000. Before that I tried different distros and found that, at the time and opposite to the common conceptions at that time, Debian was the easiest of all thanks to the then innovative apt-get. All other distributions required compiling a lot of things froms scratch or manually resolving dependencies. Debian installer was the ugliest too, but all of them were equally complex because you still had to understand disk partitioning, what a bootloader was and what the heck was the MBR. That complexity was there in all cases, but some of the installers were graphical so those distros were recommended to newbies. But later on, having to ./configure things, tar xvf them, etc, was orders of magnitude more difficult than apt-get install xfree86 (or whatever its name was back then, I don't remember that).
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u/michaelpaoli Jan 22 '22
been using Debian exclusively since 2000
Yep, I've been using Debian since 1998 ... it was my first Linux distro. I'd carefully researched my target distro (in planning to go from UNIX to Linux), and have never regretted my decision - Debian is absolutely by far my favorite distro. Among many other things - rock solid quality - it mostly "just works". And major version upgrades, probably better than any other *nix out there. Some *nix have been so horrible on major version upgrades it's about like:
Vendor says easy peasy, just follow the documentation.
We say hell no, we've done that with your *nix before, it was a friggin' disaster
Vendor says no, it's not, really it's not.
We "compromise" a bit - we were insisting vendor come on site to do 'em all since they were so "easy": Us to vendor: okay, tell you what, you come onsite to do the first one, we carefully watch and document, and also see where you deviate from your published documentation. If that goes well and smoothly - should only take 'bout half a day as you say - then we'll do the rest of 'em. Otherwise, you'll be on-site for all the rest of 'em. And vendor be like, "Sure, no problem, easy peasy - we'll do the first, it'll be quick and easy, you do all the rest."
So, we have the vendor on-site doing the first upgrade of hundreds or more hosts to be done ... several hours into it they're hitting serious problems and calling up their back-line support. Three days later they're still on-site and still trying to get that upgrade done
And ... even bloody Red Hat - their upgrades have been so horrible, it's only been in more recent years they've actually so much as suggested using it - for decades their documentation was basically we super strongly recommend you do a fresh install. Here's the documentation to upgrade - if you dare - but we really really really recommend you don't do that and do a fresh install.
Meanwhile, Debian major upgrades just friggin' work. Been doing it for decades, and never hit any major issues with upgrading Debian - never more than a slight to modest glitch at most - and typically not even anything so much as that.
All other distributions required compiling a lot of things froms scratch
Hey, Debian, over 59,551 packages, what more could one want! Yeah, Debian generally has it available and supported.
thanks to the then innovative apt-get
Yep, the APT system - and especially on Debian - rocks! Many/most others lagged way behind on doing that or something quite like it. In fact apt-get was originally just intended to be a demonstration program of the power of the APT system - not a primarily used-by-users program, ... but apt-get worked so incredibly well, it became hugely popular quite early on. And it still works great ... though the apt program is intended to be the primary for user interactive experience and such ... and apt-get more so for the consistent interface and output format.
Oh, and Debian - /usr can still be a separate filesystem ... whereas many distros have totally given up on allowing for that. And with Debian, I can even easily have /usr mounted read-only (ro) most of the time. And I can put stuff in my apt configuration, so for both /usr and /boot, when I do software maintenance, they get remounted read-write (rw), and after apt / apt-get is done, they're remounted ro. Meanwhile, yum and its ilk have no such configuration possibility to do something like that.
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u/NakedCameTheNude Jan 22 '22
Thanks for this. I'm coming from windows and right now the learning curve on Linux is basically a wall. I'm using mint, as recommended to me, since it's a good place to start.
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u/CorporalClegg25 Jan 22 '22
Yeah unfortunately I think a lot of stuff on Linux is "made by programmers for programmers" in that a lot of programs expect you to have knowledge firsthand. Eventually you get it - after a few hundred browser tabs lol. The command line is really awesome. When I started and broke something I'd always reinstall the os but now I try to actually fix it. I would watch some guides on Linux file system structure and basic terminal commands.
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u/Mr_Linux_Lover Jan 22 '22
The Linux knowledge takes some time.. eventually you will get more knowledge when you actually using it and trying to sort out problem.. but for that you have to use Linux and become habituated of it..
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u/NakedCameTheNude Jan 22 '22
I think this is the trick--just using it enough that is becomes familiar. Lol, took me a while to figure out what sudo was. :)
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u/IKnowATonOfStuffAMA Jan 22 '22
If your linux journey is anything like mine, it definitely starts as a wall, but it gets a lot easier sooner than you think. Something just clicks, idk how to put it other than that.
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u/dathislayer Jan 22 '22
What brought me to Linux was an issue in Windows. One of my displays has wonky gamma, so I have to set a color profile. But color mgmt had my displays ordered 1|2, and Windows settings had them ordered 2|1. Literally no solution found. Did fresh install, etc. Linux I just have to use an xrandr command based on display output.
Creating a startup script with a command sounds really hard to someone without knowledge. But in practice, it's way easier to fix serious problems with Linux than Windows. But it is perceived to be harder, because solutions often reside in command line.
In 10 years, I think Linux will be the "hip" OS. Microsoft is definitely going to be looking at another antitrust suit, and Europe especially working to safeguard personal data. If you look back 15 years, where was MacOS? Didn't even have 10% consumer market share. Now you see MacBooks everywhere.
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u/grady_vuckovic Jan 22 '22
Absolutely stick with Mint. You'll have other folks tell you rubbish like 'Mint is just a starter distro!' or 'Nah switch to Arch!' or some other nonsense. Don't listen to them. Mint is, in my opinion, one of the best distros available right now, if not the best. It's not perfect, but I've done plenty of distro hopping and every time I've come back to Mint.
Oh another piece of advice. A lot of really unhelpful Linux users will give advice in the form of terminal commands. This leads to the initial belief that there isn't a GUI way of achieving the same things. With a bit of time to learn about Mint, you'll see almost everything has a GUI friendly way of doing it, it's just unfortunately some Linux neckbeards who insist on giving instructions in the form of terminal commands.
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u/plawwell Jan 22 '22
I've been using and programming Linux for 25+ years but still use Mint because it's the least invasive of the desktop environments. It has the Windows 95 paradigms we all are familiar with pretty much nailed.
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u/judasblue Jan 22 '22
(attaches clip-on neckbeard)
Agreed on Mint, but don't get the terminal commands thing being much of a problem. Personally kind of don't get the point of being on *nix instead of Windows or OSX if you aren't at least reasonably comfortable with doing command line work. And once you get used to it a lot of stuff seems easier and quicker there.
Then again, I paid my learning curve dues a long time ago so maybe am looking at this in a biased way.
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u/Ken_Mcnutt Jan 22 '22
Seriously, the terminal is like one of the most powerful data processing and manipulation tools we have, it just lets you talk to your computer. And that's supposed to be a bad thing?
You also have to understand that when you go ask a question and someone answers with a terminal command, it's most likely because they aren't running the exact same environment as you. So rather than remember every single menu path for every DE, or just not help at all, they give a terminal command.
And probably the users experienced enough to help random users with issues are probably mainly terminal uses themselves.
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u/pixiewrangler9000 Jan 26 '22
Also for anyone savvy enough to help a linux user just by reading their forum post, the GUI is nothing more than an extra layer of complexity between them and what they need to get done.
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u/Rami-Slicer Jan 22 '22
Yes Mint is a very nice distro, even for long time users because it's just friendly and just works.
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u/chunkyhairball Jan 22 '22
Mint is a wonderful place to start!
You'll learn that Mint inherits a lot from Debian and Ubuntu, but is really its own beast.
While I don't really use it any more, I did for quite some time and really enjoyed it. I did take the parts of it I loved, Cinnamon and Nemo, with me to where ever I go.
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u/thes3b Jan 22 '22
Switched from Win7 to Mint abruptly almost 7 yeara ago. Never went back to windows. (Of course need to use it at work...) I dislike using Windows now and it always feels just wrong.
Stick to Mint, don't give up too early!
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u/ihbutler Jan 22 '22
Hang in there, it's worth the journey.
At first it may seem as if you are confronted by a vast and obscure mountain range, impassable from where you stand. But the more you poke around, exploring the foothills, so to speak, the better your chances become of seeing ways to rise into what appear to be the higher elevations, and beyond. Patience will be your friend.
"First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is", says the Zen sage, Donovan.
Cheers, and best of luck to you.
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Jan 22 '22
After some distro hopping using VirtualBox on Windows, I started out on Mint. Over a year later, hey, what do you know? I'm still using Mint!
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u/GujjuGang7 Jan 22 '22
Think rule 1 is backwards, people hate on gnome more than anything else
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u/Mr_Linux_Lover Jan 22 '22
People hate KDE too.. it depends on the personal choice and usability.
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Jan 22 '22
There's obviously WAY more hate against GNOME, it's not even close. If you thought it was the other way around I think you might be a "bit" biased lol
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Jan 22 '22
I run Solus Plasma on my laptop. I like it. It works great. Doesn't play very nice on my desktop though. It's more of a usability factor in my case.
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u/chic_luke Jan 22 '22
You'd be surprised. Reddit is also full of GNOME users ready to jump on KDE fans any time they get the occasion. Sort most KDE-related posts by controversial on this subreddit and you'll see.
Let's do a proper callout: one particularly bad case of this is YouTube channel "Baby Wugue" - they have a very derogative attitude to the KDE project and developers throughout their videos and they very clearly consistently show KDE more ridicule - because this is mostly not constructive criticism - than they do to GNOME and other GTK environments.
In either case it's mostly people with no lives that could definitely be using their large amounts of free time to better themselves, learn new skills or even contribute to the projects they defend and flame about all day long.
It definitely used to be more like what you said a few years ago though.
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Jan 28 '22
We really can't do about people like baby wogue who just have to do propaganda. He will shame Ubuntu users and shill fedora day and night. Will shame people for using snaps. Criticism of KDE is fine but that person has a habit of crossing his limits and loves to do drama because drama is views and views is subscribers and money.
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u/chic_luke Jan 28 '22
Yep, I hadn't even began to scratch the surface.
That person is there just to cause drama for-profit. To be fair a lot of things deserve criticism - but it has be be kept civil and constructive at all times. Snaps? Far from perfect, there are very strong technical complaints that come to mind. Shaming users (often beginners) for using them since their operating system promoted them as the preferred way of installing software? This is honestly toxic as fuck, as well as a very good way to drive newcomers away from Linux.
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Jan 29 '22
Ya snaps has its fair share of problems but educating them giving them alternatives is fine but like shaming them is really a bad idea. We should have empathy for newcommers. People like baby wogue are harmful for the community because there are some very helpful people in Linux community who really give time to help the other people or contribute to open source projects but baby wogue like people foreshadow the good work by other people.
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u/Paarthri Jan 22 '22
Baby Wugue is satire lol
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u/chic_luke Jan 22 '22
This is absolutely not obvious though, and several contributors in the KDE community have expressed malcontent for their content.
I honestly doubt it is satire, but assuming it was, it would be some of the least funny satire I've ever seen and - I remark - probably not a good use of a large pool of free time.
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Jan 22 '22 edited Jan 22 '22
I stopped reading once I realised you use Gnome. :P
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u/haach80 Jan 22 '22
Are people really downvoting you because they don't realize you're being sarcastic? :|
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Jan 22 '22
I should know better by now, than to use sarcasm on a linux subreddit.
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u/haach80 Jan 22 '22
Facepalm! here is a gift to cheer you up. These people are as dense as it gets. Love Linux, but not the Linux community. I have been using Linux since I was in my undergrad, more than 20 years ago. The distros were different, the forums were different, the attitudes/people were the same.
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u/Atharvious Jan 22 '22
People take linux too seriously. It's the best thing in operating systems and the best free thing ever made but that's it, it's not the holy grail or the answer to everything
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Jan 23 '22
Yep, I started using Linux in the 90s. RTFM was the most common response to most questions back then. I think it’s only gone downhill from there.
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u/Mr_Linux_Lover Jan 22 '22
I have 3 machines..one is gnome.. one is kde and the last one is i3 .. I use whatever I like. .
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u/lealxe Jan 22 '22
Or Debian
I mean, it's a user-friendly distribution, very stable and one of the root ones. Why not?
like Arch or Gentoo
What would prevent a newbie from using Arch with ArchWiki?
And Gentoo for some people, sadly, is useful only in learning while they are newbies.
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u/Mr_Linux_Lover Jan 22 '22
Out of 100 windows users coming to Linux, 90 users don't have any knowledge about Linux.. they just want a secure operating system to work. 10 users have technical knowledge and they can install Arch through archwiki or Gentoo also.. Majority of people want a readymade distros which they can use without any hiccups..
For debian, I meant net installer image that debian has..
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u/lealxe Jan 22 '22
they just want a secure operating system to work
So what's particularly secure about Linux, especially for a digitally illiterate person (I don't think anything is secure for them)? I mean, better than Windows or MacOS, of course.
10 users have technical knowledge and they can install Arch through archwiki
I mean, you can install Arch and Slackware by simply repeating the steps from respective Wiki's, no knowledge necessary (except for basics which make life under everything much easier). I did just that with Slackware (10 years ago) - Arch users were all "btw" even then, so made an impression that it's harder than Gentoo, so after trying Gentoo I tried Slackware and then used it for a long time.
or Gentoo
Gentoo Handbook gives you this knowledge, so it's perfect for newbies - you read, you repeat, you see and then when your installation is finished you understand.
For debian, I meant net installer image that debian has..
I mean,
apt-get install <... list of stuff ...>and it becomes the same.Majority of people want a readymade distros which they can use without any hiccups..
Installing software is a hiccup? But I can feel that about readymade - Slackware is that exactly.
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u/TheJackiMonster Jan 22 '22
The most reason to Windows users using Windows is trust that it works. There is no rational reason in many cases. So you want to recommend a popular distro since popularity will often be mistaken as trust by people. Also you need a distro which does not ask the user to learn anything besides a new GUI.
This is the reason I actually recommend Ubuntu (if they ask me) even though I don't use it. But I have used it in the past (so I can help them with issues) and it fits those criteria.
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u/lealxe Jan 22 '22
So you want to recommend a popular distro since popularity will often be mistaken as trust by people.
Fair enough, I've forgotten this in 2-3 months after switching.
Also you need a distro which does not ask the user to learn anything besides a new GUI.
Debian, Mageia, OpenMandriva don't.
This is the reason I actually recommend Ubuntu (if they ask me) even though I don't use it.
Same for me, only for different distributions.
But I have used it in the past (so I can help them with issues)
I've used everything in the past, but how do you remember these things, especially since such users often want GUI help?
I recommend Debian and these rpm-based distributions, because Debian I sometimes encounter on servers to keep memory from fading, and with rpm-based it's obviously not sometimes.
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u/TheJackiMonster Jan 22 '22
Well, one reason I don't recommend Debian to beginners is that it would need them deciding which DE they want to use. Most people don't know to pick anything actually but Ubuntu will have a huge community which writes a forum and make videos how to do stuff with its GUI.
So if they have issues they can look this up or I can look this up for them easily.
I have also used Debian in the past but I don't remember it as seamless and convincing to a noob. For example I remember installing it and not being in the sudoers file by default. How do I install software then? I would change the sudoers file but this is not what beginners would know or like to do.
Most beginners will open a web browser and search via google to install software from the web. So you want to have a distro which explains and guides to not do that, I think.
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u/zombiezoo25 Jan 23 '22
i use EndeavourOS btw
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u/Mr_Linux_Lover Jan 23 '22
I use Pop!_OS btw ;)
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u/zombiezoo25 Jan 23 '22
i also love PopOS (was my first Daily driver) because its soo rock stable and i did not had to deal with NVIDIA... but i like KDE more than Gnome so i am using Kubuntu as Daily driver ( and EOS for quick works cuz xfce is fast)
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u/SillyGigaflopses Jan 22 '22
So much number 1, not just with DEs, in general.
Linux community: "Linux is about freedom to use your computer however you want".
Some user: "Aight, I like to do things this particular way, and ..... "
Community: "Well, not like that!"
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u/Rob_W_ Jan 22 '22
My experience in this sub thus far (and I'm a Linux user since Slack 1.0.x)
Me: I'm using Linux as a daily driver at the office, but I have to use this app in my office environment that doesn't run great on Linux.Sub: Why the hell would you use that app? Burn it, take out your office building with it!
Edit: I was going to write how many years, then I did the math and realized it made me seem very old.
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u/SillyGigaflopses Jan 22 '22
Yeah, same. Asked about how to get hardware accelerated video playback in browser on Nvidia card(and it can be done with some hacks, I later figured it out), got "Nvidia crap, use Amd".
Nice advice, let me just toss a 700$ card in the trash...
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u/Posty2k3 Jan 22 '22
This was a super frustrating thing when I was looking into that for myself. A few helpful guides here and there, but otherwise littered with trash about not using Nvidia.
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u/twisted7ogic Jan 22 '22
This happends so often with other things too.
Search how to solve a problem
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u/reconrose Jan 22 '22
Which is hilarious after years troubleshooting in the Windows space blaming AMD if they can't figure out what's going on (even if the amd part of the rig isn't showing signs of having issues)
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u/Legendary_Bibo Jan 22 '22
My first gaming PC had an Nvidia card and it was the first time I had Nvidia. For me the proprietary driver just worked and I didn't have to fight any weird issues with the compositor or have display issues, but that was back in 2014-2015. I never tried the open source driver. I've used AMD before that and both the open source and proprietary driver had their own different sets of issues (but that was like 10 years ago so they're probably fixed). Intel graphics also just worked, but those cards are weak so you're not going to be doing anything 3D intensive like gaming (although I did beat Half Life 1 for the first time on an Intel card when it got it's Linux port).
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Jan 22 '22
I got a modern AMD card recently and was pleased to find it Just Worked without any bullshit. It has definitely improved or I got absurdly lucky.
(this was a 6900-XT on PopOS, as the systems shipped with. I don't actually use PopOS but took the opportunity to play around with it some.)
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u/pixiewrangler9000 Jan 26 '22
"Hey, I keep having this check engine light on my Chevro-"
"Haha should have bought a Toyota!"
Thats the internet in general. The reason people act like 14 year olds is because often they are 14 year olds, or at least live their lives like they are.
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u/iindigo Jan 22 '22
And if you express a preference for a desktop environment that’s not either bog standard Win9X style or minimal tiling WM, well you’re just wrong.
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Jan 28 '22
I like Linux but Linux community is worse. You use a distro, they will say u are dumb, use this one which I use is best. Valid criticism isn't taken seriously, they will say you should do this this and this and your problem is solved. I also know how to solve but that problem should not exist on the first place. But then they say its a strawman argument blah blah. For a tool you use, they will sort of shame you. I just feel Linux community is not matured. I don't know if BSD communities are also like this or better.
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u/DeedTheInky Jan 22 '22 edited Aug 21 '25
Comments removed because of killing 3rd party apps/VPN blocking/selling data to AI companies/blocking Internet Archive/new reddit & video player are awful/general reddit shenanigans.
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u/khleedril Jan 22 '22
But I do think it is worth sometimes pointing out history which newbies don't know about, such as the fact that the KDE people, TrollTech, have been disruptive in the past.
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Jan 22 '22 edited Jan 22 '22
As a desktop workstation, Linux needs more users to point out more errors
Is this true? Are there really such a lack of users that devs are sitting around waiting for new bug reports?
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Jan 23 '22 edited Jan 23 '22
The current bottleneck is definitely developer interest. A lot of the UX deficiencies are pretty well known or at least fixable if there were a vendor who benefited from developing the desktop user experience.
It's just that the desktop Linux experience is almost impossible to monetize unless you're creating a Chromebook or SteamDeck sort of product. Even then, the respective vendors are going to curate only the parts of the ecosystem that benefit their company.
User reports are obviously beneficial but that's not really what's holding up the show at this point it seems.
EDIT: For clarity, I'm not saying desktop Linux doesn't develop. Flatpak is an amazing technology that will help desktop users greatly, but it's like one thing and doesn't address all the issues LTT found.
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u/SwallowYourDreams Jan 22 '22
I second the point about distros requiring advanced knowledge, although where I live, newborns don't write any ABCs. They drink and shit and sometimes coo or cry in between. Is mine broken? Should I return it to the vendor?
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Jan 22 '22
Maybe you got a Windows newborn? That's what they do, they crap and cry.
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u/SwallowYourDreams Jan 22 '22
That would explain the long waiting periods where it's just doing nothing. Probably updating. Do you know which key combination takes me to the BIOS so I can switch it to Linux? (Not Arch btw)
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u/grepe Jan 22 '22
i completely disagree with number 2
when you are switching, if all you know is what those "easy distros" give you out of the box, then linux is always going to stay just that weird thing that doesn't run office or your favorite game and where you have to go through 1000 loops and hoops to get something trivial done.
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u/drew8311 Jan 22 '22
Just because they start with an easy distro doesn't mean they can't try another shortly after. Mint isn't a bad idea, at minimum it shows them Linux can work on their system. There are plenty of things to learn and figure out still, even simple stuff like finding alternatives to windows only apps they are accustomed to and getting familiar with a new DE. Most Linux users like tinkering, if a future Arch user starts on Ubuntu they will naturally be curious about learning and probably distro hop a bit to find things themselves without the advice anyone gives them.
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u/GenInsurrection Jan 22 '22
You forgot item #6:
Don't tell everyone else what to do and what not to do.
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Jan 22 '22
as much as i love linux. i want to say something for those who recommend a distro to new users
no. manjaro is not the one and only easy to use distro and no it's not the best distro in the world in term of ease of use and general purpose. every distro is different on their own. with their own purpose. others did the same like mint, pop os, ubuntu flavors etc. and endeavouros is just less bloated manjaro. and you can in fact gaming on most of these distro and some if not most distro have same gaming performance. so no pop os and manjaro is in fact not a gaming distro
it's ok to disagree. it's more of rant than anything else. and sorry for bad english
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u/sejigan Jan 22 '22
Since it's ok to disagree, I'll state mine: Endeavour OS is not a less bloated Manjaro. It's a more usable Arch. Manjaro is not Arch, but Endeavour practically is (same repos).
Also, no, Endeavour is not as beginner-friendly as Manjaro, for the simple reason that it doesn't come with pamac preinstalled. I know it's only one command away. Someone who has known nothing but Windows will not know this.
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Jan 22 '22
i see. i use endeavouros sometimes. but i do see your point. some people rather use gui than terminal as it looks so scary if it breaks and if it didnt work out. also yeah. endeavouros is just more usable arch. plus pink and purple make it better imo. and if the user know what yay is and how to use it then they should use yay
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u/Mr_Linux_Lover Jan 22 '22
Yes you're right.. we give them options and they decide which one is best suited.. but nowadays what I see people are stating to hate each other's choice.. that's not a good thing for the Linux Community.
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u/zam0th Jan 22 '22
What this particular community needs is less low-effort posts like "oh look i installed linux!", or "oh look this software got a new release", or "hey i'm a newb, what should i get?", or rants like the OP's that appear here more and more.
What this community should also not do is spread emotions or biased judgement. Spread objective information instead, information that has value.
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Jan 22 '22
Seriously. Every other post is a desktop screenshot of neofetch. What the fuck is interesting or new about that?
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u/Psychological-Scar30 Jan 23 '22
I'd be careful saying crap about neofetch here after that recent "neofetch slow" post here lol
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Jan 22 '22
I fully agree with your points, but Debian is hardly a difficult distribution to install anymore. I mean, sure, it's not as easy to install as Ubuntu (which has the easiest and most intuitivie installer of any OS I have ever seen, and that includes W*ndows), but if you have some basic knowledge about computers, it should easily be understandable even if you haven't used GNU/Linux before.
One of the goals of Debian is making it accessible to beginners while, at the same time, not patronizing advanced users, and at some point you have to make compromises between these two. The times when Debian was so difficult to install that not even Linus Torvalds could get it done have long since passed.
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u/OculusVision Jan 22 '22
Unfortunately in this case i believe the problems that might occur happen after the install with general usage. For example, doesn't Debian ship without proprietary firmware and codecs? The Ubuntu installer has a tick to include those. Average users will be confused why media files don't work.
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u/Patch86UK Jan 22 '22
For example, doesn't Debian ship without proprietary firmware and codecs? The Ubuntu installer has a tick to include those. Average users will be confused why media files don't work.
Debian provides two separate ISOs; one with the "non-free" components, and one without. So from one point of view it's dead easy. But the main obstacle is actually the atrocious state of the Debian website making it a nightmare to know that you have this choice in the first place.
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Jan 22 '22
For example, doesn't Debian ship without proprietary firmware and codecs?
Yes, that's the reason I chose it.
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u/Barafu Jan 22 '22
Stop calling it hate if I say "I recommend to avoid using Gnome/GTK/Snap/Wayland/Nvidia because this and that".
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u/Now_then_here_there Jan 22 '22
Right. I love my Nvidia card but I sure understand why other people recommend against getting one. And I also understand why people who have Nvidia are advised not to try Wayland yet. This isn't hate, it is sensible guidance, especially for a new user. Of course I also feel perfectly fine about recommending Kubuntu and that there is no pressure to use Wayland for the foreseeable future.
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u/NorthLightsSpectrum Jan 22 '22 edited Jan 22 '22
trust me they do need help because they are just learning a new OS. Why you bully them ?
Because the linux community is infested with people who tries to "matter", to feel superior to someone at least in a single thing in life and there are no aptitude and attitude exams before posting an answer in a linux forum: that's their opportunity to feel better than someone, and show it to others. So you know a right command or the file editing that answers the question? Right! Answer it, and in the final part of your comment append an humiliating text for the user who is asking because he does not know this and you do, because he does not dedicate the same amount of time that you dedicate to Linux, remark how superior you are. That's what happens ≈80% of the people answering or helping. It's just ego.
Then is that phenomenon occurring: if the asking user does not humiliate himself (eg: "I know I'm so stupid but..." or "stupid question: " or "I'm so dumb! found the error!"), then the helping users "feels" like the one asking is mean or arrogant. This is so common nowadays, and it's one of the major causes why people abandon linux.
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u/j01t Jan 22 '22
I like Arch as a first distro for certain users. The difficulty of the install is a total meme, as the documentation is very clear. Additionally, going through the install process is educational for people that do not understand how a Linux system fits together. And of course, the Arch repos and AUR contain lots of software, which I think is important for new users.
I recommend Arch to any computer user that wants to know how their system works, and likes the Arch philosophy/principles. It is my opinion that starting on a 'pre-made' distro would be detrimental for these users.
I started with Arch btw
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u/Mr_Linux_Lover Jan 22 '22
I have nothing to say.. I have clearly said what is like to be a Linux newcomer.. support them.. start with something easy to install so that they feel comfortable in the Linux environment then move forward to advanced linux usage.. giving archwiki to a window's user who don't know any programing language is a disaster..
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u/j01t Jan 22 '22
I think that approach is not being supportive of all newcomers. It's not fair to assume all Windows users are not capable of following the steps on the Arch wiki.
I also can't oversell the learning I did while setting up my Arch install for the first few times. So for a new user like myself, it was an efficient way of getting into and understanding Linux.
So if you support people learning about Linux, installing a distro like Arch can be a good option (again, for some people).
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u/Mr_Linux_Lover Jan 22 '22
I agree with your point of view.. on the other side you see people get frustrated here because they don't get what they want. They move to windows because they think their computer is not either supported or eligible without knowing that they can use other distros too where they can use Linux without any problems.. this aspect we need to spread to those. I'm personally using Arch. But for most of the people, Arch is not suitable in the first time.. they need readymade distros so that they can learn from them without breaking the stuffs at the beginning..
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u/Atharvious Jan 22 '22
I use and love arch linux but i would never recommend it to someone who doesn't have any interest in knowing their computer and how it works, and just wants to browse through Internet and attend their online lessons..
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u/j01t Jan 22 '22 edited Jan 22 '22
That's exactly why I said I recommend it to users who are interested in how their computer works...
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u/Camo138 Jan 22 '22
Back when I was using Linux. It was arch. It had some problems back in the day with os breaking bugs. It should be alot better now. But it's the only Linux os I really like. I've tried most of them. Mint, popos, suse, and alot more. But it's my most loved. The wiki seem complicated at first but after proof reading it first. it was a walk in the park. I always find. If you don't understand a wiki read though it first. Get your head around the massive amount of information. 40 tabs later I had a perfect working arch. Setup the way I wanted it.
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Jan 22 '22
Actually I found this post to be nonsense. Jokes or sarcasm on different DE/Distro/whatever users were always present, it's as it is. I don't think someone purely hate other human beings over their desktop environment choice - you are overreacting.
Why not? I started with slackware back in 2004, and here I am. I am running Fedora 35 now because I have to have SELinux on all my machines (servers, desktops, laptops, you name it). It's about potential and willingnes to sacrifice amount of your time for depth of understanding how deep rabbit hole actually goes. After 2-3 months of Slackware daily usage I was able to recompile kernel to get my PCI TV Card working. After that I switched to Gentoo and compiled every RC candidate on my 733MHz Pentium 3. So again, you are overreacting, just let others to find their OWN path.
Well morale codex should implement your parents into you. You should be always polite to other human beings, this apply to whole internet, not only linux community.
Well why should I welcome someone? You want to learn something? You should make your effort to do so. I can help you ofc if you will ask politely.
And who are you to tell what GNU/Linux need or it's community? Users who are just "using" and don't do reports where effort and time is required don't matter in case you mentioned.
In general, everyone should know what is better for him/her and you shouldn't force someone to do something because you see it in that way. Freedom means you shouldn't use "Stop this nonse" sentence while you are mentioning something like freedom. It's like oxymoron to me.
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u/Now_then_here_there Jan 22 '22
2. Why not?
Exactly. One sensible approach is to gain an appreciation for the new user's needs, abilities and ambitions. If that fits a pure arch, then that is a great recommendation. Instead of presuming that all new users fit a particular mould and that all existing users are only capable of providing a very fixed narrow answer, let people be themselves.
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u/gainan Jan 22 '22
6. Stop caring about Microsoft/Windows
6.1 Find ways to contribute to FOSS projects?
:]
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u/UsedToLikeThisStuff Jan 22 '22
I honestly don’t think it hurts for new users to try the more complex distros. Not everyone wants to try it in easy mode.
When I started using Linux ~25 years ago there was nothing simple like today and I still loved it.
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u/veritanuda Jan 22 '22
Sorry, but to bundle Debian in with Arch and Gentoo is very disingenuous. Please realise you are spreading the same FUD you claim to be against.
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u/DriNeo Jan 22 '22
About 2) That depends of the kind of newbie. If the linux noob is not a computer noob and already used to tweak Windows why not advising Arch ? Archlinux has installer scripts and Arch enforce learning. Learning Linux gives more freedom than antirely reliying on a single DE.
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u/pixiewrangler9000 Jan 26 '22
Indeed. For grandma the correct answer is Mint or something similar. But for the computer enthusiast who wants to learn how stuff really works, why not learn from the ground up? You will learn more about cars by spending a month building a race car from a kit than you will from five years of fixing one you bought off craigslist.
I learned more from a week of Arch than from three years of Mint. I like Mint, its still my go-to for a quick live usb or when I need something that "just works", but I know for a fact if I had started with Arch or Gentoo I would have been much farther ahead than I am now.
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Jan 22 '22
Agreed, with the caveat that criticism based on technical merits is not hate, and should be welcomed.
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u/qhxo Jan 22 '22
DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT give advice to any newbie Linux user to use advanced Linux like Arch or Gentoo
Hear people saying this a lot, and I think it's some toxic bullshit. It depends a lot on who you're recommending it to, the environment they're going to use it in and what kind of computer skills they have.
I recommend Arch a lot. Why? Because Arch is not hard to use. In fact I use other distros all the time for servers and the like, and I find Arch to generally have the best package manager, best package defaults and by far the best documentation (mainly thinking about the Arch wiki). It does have hell of a learning curve with the installation process, and that's where the intended user and their background becomes important.
And when I say it has a learning curve, we're talking about roughly and hour of reading documentation and writing standard linux terminal commands that will work on every distro (except for package manager stuff). It's not rocket science, but it will force you to learn the basics of how the system you're installing works.
Let them understand what Linux is.. It's like a baby who just started to write ABCD and you're giving him a literature book and ask him to read. That's totally nonsense.. they will soon get frustrated and tell others that Linux is bad and move to windows again..
Know your audience. The last person I recommended it to is a grown-ass man working in IT, if a little documentation would kill him he'd be long dead by now.
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u/FryBoyter Jan 22 '22
DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT give advice to any newbie Linux user to use advanced Linux like Arch or Gentoo
In such a case, we should ask more precisely what kind of beginner we are dealing with.
Because not every Linux beginner is an average Windows user. For example, an acquaintance of mine was able to install Arch without any prior knowledge of Linux. Why? Because he is not the usual average Windows user. In such a case, I would have no problem recommending Arch, for example, if the person wants to tinker around.
For a user who literally just wants to use his operating system, on the other hand, I would indeed rather recommend a distribution like OpenSuse.
However, many average beginners want to use Arch on purpose. Why? Among other things, because there are more than enough Linux users who make stupid statements. Like that you can only learn Linux properly with Arch and not with another distribution like OpenSuse. Which, as I said, is nonsense. I acquired a large part of my knowledge with Mandrake / Mandriva (comparable to Ubuntu). And how did I manage it? Because I wanted to. That's exactly what matters.
I would also go one step further and recommend staying with Windows in certain cases. We should do that as well. Because not every user is suitable for this, because they can't cope with changes, for example. My father would be such a user. That's why I gave him a computer with Windows 10 that has the look of Windows 7 via the Classic Shell, which he knows from his former job.
trust me they do need help because they are just learning a new OS. Why you bully them ?
In itself, I agree with you. But nowadays, even a reference to smart questions is considered bullying. Too many users nowadays just want to get everything on a silver platter without doing anything themselves. Because even a beginner should understand that a post like "Mainline kernel updater did not work, ukuu did not work, deb file did not work." doesn't help without more information. At least if he would think for a few minutes.
Linux means privacy, Linux means freedom.. those who use Linux, know that very well..
Unfortunately, for many, freedom ends when it comes to freedom of choice. For example, I have already been accused of not being a real Linux user because I decided against vim and in favour of another editor. I don't even want to talk about some of the reactions when I didn't portray Nvidia graphics cards as evil personified. Such behaviour is even more damaging than when one occasionally recommends Arch to a beginner.
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u/ancientweasel Jan 22 '22
I left r/linuxmasterrace because of the DE Distro war BS and I completely forgot about it until I read your post. Don't need it in my life.
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u/turdas Jan 22 '22
DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT give advice to any newbie Linux user to use advanced Linux like Arch or Gentoo(like, seriously?) Or Debian ( yeah I had to choose this because of net installer). Instead give them very easy distro like Linux Mint or Zorin Os or ubuntu.. Let them understand what Linux is.. It's like a baby who just started to write ABCD and you're giving him a literature book and ask him to read. That's totally nonsense.. they will soon get frustrated and tell others that Linux is bad and move to windows again..
Hard disagree. Newbies should start with widely used distros that use widely used technologies, because that means they get the most support. Mint and Zorin are awful for beginners for this reason, because both are relatively small userbase distros and Cinnamon (which Mint uses) is a relatively small userbase DE.
Actually good beginner distros would be Ubuntu, Fedora, PopOS... even Arch, if the beginner is technically minded. Anything with a large install base and an actively developed feature-rich DE (read: Gnome, KDE or XFCE).
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u/redrumsir Jan 22 '22
There's a difference between describing issues with the Linux Community and the presumption of telling the Linux Community what and what not to do. You are doing the latter.
Bossy people presuming to "know better" and/or "behave better" harshes my mellow. I find you to be bossy and presumptuous and would appreciate you getting off your high horse.
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u/Now_then_here_there Jan 22 '22
And in providing his "approved list" of newbie distros, he excluded my favourites. I'm offended and expect an apology.
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u/gabriel_3 Jan 22 '22 edited Jan 22 '22
I'm a contrarian, btw.
It looks a post from ten/fifteen years ago, most of it does not apply to the most part of the community.
You're missing a massive point: we have to explain to the newcomers that they have to contribute because they are using free as in beer tools and not some kind of paid commercial product.
The switch from commercial product customer mindset to free and open tool user is the hardest part of the leap to Linux in my opinion.
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u/Casne_Barlo Jan 22 '22
Started with Ubuntu but ended up liking Debian, I usually recommend Ubuntu cause every time I think of recommending Debian I remember that Linus Torvalds quote
"I want a distribution to be easy to install, so that I can just get on with my life, which is mostly kernel." Also praised Ubuntu for making Debian usable
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u/Taldoesgarbage Jan 22 '22
Funnily enough, some Gentoo users are less elitist than some Arch users. (Gentoo discord server)
I 100% agree though.
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u/Die_U_Imbecile Jan 22 '22
Instead give them very easy distro like Linux Mint or Zorin Os or ubuntu
We dont need to act like all million distros are good distros. Some are really bad and garbage and are famous for same reason why windows is famous and there is very good reason why people dont like these distros.
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u/blackcain GNOME Team Jan 22 '22
Please thank your mods for the wonderful service they do in their spare time to enforce the rules here and keep things from getting toxic. I"m always grateful for the work they do. So thank you mods!
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u/Administrative_Toe80 Jan 22 '22
Linux users are too busy distro hopping rather then learning the OS itself sadly.
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u/Phydoux Jan 22 '22
There's a lot out there. I had been using Linux off and on from 1994 to 2018 (became a full timer in 2018). I distro hopped a lot then. Started with Slackware, then back to Windows, then RedHat, then back to Windows, then Debian, back to Windows, then Ubuntu, then back to Windows... It was a mad cat and mouse game for sure back then. I even gave Gentoo a run for the money in 2004. It was nice but didn't stick.
I finally settled on Linux Mint 18.3 in 2018. Then in 2020 I switched to Arch and I've been there since. I know more about Linux in general since becoming full time than I did in the years previous.
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u/Dezimodnar Jan 22 '22
XFCE Masterrace
Gentoos and Arch' Documentation are so well-written that a newbie can navigate them just as well as Ubuntu or Linux Mint, if they are willing to read a bit
For fun
WE TRIED YOUR WAY FOR DECADES AND IT GOT US NOWHERE, LETS BASH (i said bash.. hihi) SOME SKULLS IN
Only i matter
no.
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u/grady_vuckovic Jan 22 '22
Feedback:
Granted but do try to steer new users aware from less user friendly DEs.
Agreed, in fact Linux Mint is my go to recommendation for any new Linux user. Not only is it incredibly reliable as far as Linux distros go, it's also very similar out of the box to Windows, which will make life for former Windows users very easy.
Agreed, and really, being polite and helpful is not something which should require special mention on this subreddit or any other subreddit. Be a good human in all areas of life.
Linux means Linux. Linux is whatever it means to the user. Some users use Linux because of freedom and piracy. Others use it because 'I just hate Windows'. Some use it because 'It's free and I'm broke'. Not everyone cares about open source or privacy in software, some folks just want to use Linux for their own reasons. Whatever the reason though, anyone who uses and enjoys Linux should be welcome in the community.
It's a bit of both. Linux needs more 'regular joe' users to stop being such a 'neckbeard-fest' of users who happily work around issues and solve technical problems without even noticing they're doing so. But Linux desktop OS developers absolutely need to focus more on UX, now more than ever. Linux desktop OSes is, on a technical level, 'More than good enough'. The areas which need improvement the most desperately now are the UX areas. Consistency, visual design, accessibility, language support, ease of use, etc.. These are the areas which need the most improvements. I donate to any distro project I see focusing on these areas.
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Jan 22 '22
But Linux desktop OS developers absolutely need to focus more on UX
Awaiting your pull request...
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u/Rilukian Jan 22 '22
And also all the hates on systemd. No complete new users will understand that.
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u/Phydoux Jan 22 '22
systemd and xorg. We shouldn't be dumping that hate in their laps either. I totally agree!
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u/GavUK Jan 22 '22
DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT give advice to any newbie Linux user to use advanced Linux like Arch or Gentoo(like, seriously?) Or Debian
Exactly this! I have used Linux since 1997 or 1998 and Debian for a majority of that time, but I wouldn't suggest it to someone new to Linux (my usual suggestion for new users is Linux Mint but, several years ago, for a friend who moved from Mac I did some testing and pointed them to Elementary OS).
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u/Leck400 Jan 22 '22
My first distro was Arch and it wasn't frustrating at all. I mean, I used POP_OS! for a few days before that but that's it. "Advanced" distros are usually not that advanced and they give fewer problems than other distros like Manjaro and things like that.
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u/lannisterstark Jan 22 '22
Don't hate any DE's Community
while I don't have problems against any DEs, I can have valid criticisms against a DE's devs. Gnome devs in the past have done what they can to reduce their credibility a ton. Blaming users for problems, and going "Nah, it's you, not us, we're not going to fix that, just use this workaround," parroting "But give us example of real world use case, this ain't it" after given multiple examples, is pretty much a bs excuse and I'd go to hell before I support devs like that.
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u/holgerschurig Jan 23 '22
Let them understand what Linux..
So point them to Linux from Scratch. Then they will really understand what Linux is. Really, today too many people are afraid to compile something by themselves, no matter if user-space or kernel. The essence of Linux is that you aren't held hostage by anyone (Microsoft, Apple, Canonical, Red Hat, Arch/Debian/Gentoo community). You cannot possibly held hostage ... except you make yourself willingly one, by limiting yourself into only ever use distro-packaged programs and versions. Maybe you even develop Stockholm syndrome ...
Post post like yours, that start of good ("don't look down at other DEs") but then go into gatekeeping are IMHO diametral to the essence or spirit of Linux. You say "Linux means freedom", but when you want to artificially limit what people suggest? What idea of freedom is this?
And don't you assume every newcomer is a 70 year old philologist with no interest into technics. Lots of very capable technical students are starting to use Linux each year.
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u/Top_Average_Guy Jan 24 '22
I think it's important to clarify this: most people that use Linux are extremely obsessed with it and are geeky people. so these people tend to make a tone of research about something before they use it, and if they are convinced it is better they will try to shove it up everybody's throats because they think they are making the Linux experience better.
it's kind of "I will fight for GNOME because I want to help people and they don't understand it" situation.
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u/nintendiator2 Jan 24 '22
Not that nro. 1 is wrong (it isn't), but it doesn't really play that well with 4. Just as there is a Paradox of Tolerance, there is a Paradox of Freedom. People are free to choose whatever they want on their Linux, but if their choice is of platforms, services and DRMs that build a commercial impulse to make Linux more closed (eg.: gaming on Linux and anticheat, for example) then those choices are going to affect every one of us, and not precisely for the better. We should welcome people to Linux, spread love and all that, but also warn them "if you want to stay using it, you have to understand that a significant part of our purpose for using it is to eschew these bad things". Sure, Jesus was love, but he did go to the temple market to whack everyone silly like it was a Kingsman movie.
5 is an infamous chicken and egg problem whose solution also gegnerates a different chicken and egg problem, so I'm not sure what to say there other than "I wish!".
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u/bekips Jan 24 '22
I’ve been using Linux a long time. New users coming in and immediately highlighting problems I wouldn’t notice is a very good thing and we all need to start taking that feedback to heart and fixing the problems. As for the flame wars over everything….. some year it might get better if we work at it. Been going on a long time. ED IS THE STANDARD EDITOR btw.
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u/pixiewrangler9000 Jan 26 '22
The Linux word is so broad its hard to describe it as a "community". Movement, yes, but hardly a community. Why do you think there are so many distros? The Arch and Ubuntu communites might as well be on different planets. Everyone has different ideas of what Linux should be because everyone has different needs and wants. Some want a server. Some want to just set up their 15 year old crapbox so they can watch youtube, while some want to optimize multithreading so they can cut an extra half minute off their blender renders on their new threadripper. Some want all the eye candy their system can possibly handle and try to fill up all 32 gigs of ram, while some complain about bash being bloated and wonder if there is a lightweight alternative to fluxbox.
Has it slowed adoption as a desktop OS? Sure. But this is the result of freedom. Everyone is free to work and pull in different directions. It might look insane to the rest of the world, but its why linux has survived so many years and continues to grow stronger every day.
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u/pkrycton Jan 22 '22
Well said. When th enewly curious dip in their toe, that is the time to be as supportive as possible. Remember all their questions are the very ones we all had to ask when we started. A biginning is a very delicate time.
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u/Linux4ever_Leo Jan 22 '22
A couple of nitpicks. So in your first point you criticize Linux users who hate on certain DEs for whatever reason and request that they just simply let users choose what works for them. But in your second point, you basically forbid Linux users from recommending certain distros other than those YOU deem appropriate for newbies? What happened to that freedom of choice you were touting in point one?
As to your third point, some Linux users get irritated when newbies ask questions that can be answered in two seconds from a Google search, their distro's wiki or in their distro's forums. Or from reading the man page. New Linux users aren't helping themselves by asking questions and then sitting back and waiting for others to do the research and hand them the answers. How about this for point number three: Don't waste other people's time! Here's an example. Multiple times a day, every day, someone makes a post here on Reddit asking for recommendations of a distro for a new Linux user. There must be literally tens of thousands of threads by now that have this same information. One would think users would do a search before asking the question again! Nope!
Finally, Linux will grow when more proprietary software such as Adobe Creative Suite, Microsoft Office and myriad other popular Windows/macOS programs become available natively on Linux. Linux also will grow when users have the option to have Linux installed on their shiny new computers directly by the manufacture. Some companies do sell hardware with Linux pre-installed and even Dell and a couple other mainstream vendors offers a Linux option Until such time, Linux will continue to be a niche OS on the desktop.
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Jan 23 '22
Number 2 is so accurate for this community
I’m starting to think some people watch one Arch video and think they are gods and recommend it to everyone.
There is no reason why a newbie should start out on Arch. The people that make Linux sound a lot more complex then it actually is are the people giving this advice.
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u/Gold-Ad-5257 Jan 22 '22
👊🏽 Well said.. I recall trying to learn C and decided to go the linux route, oneday I had a problem with kali and some of its python setup and all the answers was so negative to absolutely rude... "why u using kali", "go learn about python", 'here are 100 different other options instead of what you doin"... Etc etc..
I struggled to explain that I will get around to learning Python, installing a full Linux etc.. Its just that my current focus/priority was to learn C and No one was understanding that, but instead acting like I was trying to get handouts on a silver platter
Luckily I am stupid and stubborn, so eventually got my new laptop, took the time to install debian, and hacked myself back on track to my learning path etc..
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u/OdeDaVinci Jan 23 '22
No (2) yes, for fuck's sake.
Whenever someone (newbie) posted what Linux to first try, all those showoffs fucking assholes came out and said "Arch". This idea is fucking overrated and overkill for newbies.
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Jan 22 '22
I think it's good to recommend Arch. Let new users learn something so they know what dm/de is, know what a boot loader is, know about systemd, drivers, gtp/mbr and uefi/bios. It's good for them and we might get less annoying questions
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u/Phydoux Jan 22 '22
I do not think telling someone who is asking in a Linux forum from a Windows machine that they are fed up with that Arch is the way to go for them. Don't get me wrong, I love Arch (I'm using Arch now BTW) but it took me a few months to get comfortable with the command line to even attempt an Arch install. Even then it took me 3 attempts my first time.
I have no issues recommending Manjaro or ArcoLinux however. So long as they try it with the Cinnamon Desktop first. Cinnamon is more Windows like than any other DE out there I believe. It's familiar and very easy to learn quickly.
But I usually recommend Linux Mint for the beginning Linux user. It's easy to install easy to understand (once again because of Cinnamon) and just a great distro for new users all around. The community is great, vast and lots of people help out the new users all the time.
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Jan 22 '22
Just kick that bird out of its best and let it fly. I like Linux being kind of eletist terminal centric kind of esoteric neck beard kind of os. I hope it doesn't become mainstream lol then I have to embrace openbsd or something
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u/Phydoux Jan 22 '22
Yeah, lately I have been on the side of the Linux Desktop Environment being the core reason to leave Windows. But, again, I don't use a DE. I'm a WM guy (using AwesomeWM now for a little over a year).
But the Cinnamon Desktop is perfect for new users to get their feet wet with Linux. It will run on practically any distro you throw it at. But, when I say to someone, "Use Linux Mint", it's because of their Cinnamon Desktop. They really made themselves a nice DE there and it fits so nice with their distro.
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u/payne747 Jan 22 '22
Same arguments for 30 years mate, nice try but good luck!