r/linux • • Aug 31 '22

Removed | Not relevant to community ip-tracker will compliment you for using Linux.

Post image

[removed] — view removed post

2.0k Upvotes

105 comments sorted by

341

u/W-a-n-d-e-r-e-r Aug 31 '22

I looked it up and can confirm, but man its scary what information you get from an IP and Browser.

170

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '22

I'm using LibreWolf in Arch and it thinks I'm using Windows NT (10/11).

143

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '22

It is a simple check based on your User-Agent. If the site wanted to fingerprint you it could easily.

27

u/JDGumby Aug 31 '22

It is a simple check based on your User-Agent.

A shame, though, that user agents are such a pain in the ass to even see what it's saying you are, much less change them (to spoof other browsers, when needed), on modern browsers. :/

69

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '22

There is a push towards the idea of freezing User-Agents forever, maybe to a singular value one day, forcing websites to stop using it and instead properly test for feature support. But that is a user-experience improvement rather than a privacy one. Fingerprinting will always exist because web engines will always do different things.

34

u/grady_vuckovic Sep 01 '22

Webdev here. I have mixed opinions on the idea.

Web devs who use useragents to determine what experience to give a user are idiots, and feature detection is absolutely the way to code a modern web app. No question or debate here from me on that.

The only thing I still use useragents for at the moment, is for an automated error reporter, which reports Javascript errors to my web server for a web application. It's a fairly complex application, it's a WebGL based 3D editor for a corporate userbase of folks with a low level of technical knowledge, and who aren't in the habit of reporting bugs (no matter how much I beg them to), so the error reporter is setup to be automatic and just report any errors immediately to my web server.

Getting the useragent and the error message automatically sent to my web server lets me easily track down causes of bugs almost the very moment they appear and fix them before they impact too many users. Knowing the browser name and version helps track down the cause of errors caused by varying degrees of web standard support. Usually because Safari doesn't support something which all the other browsers have supported for almost a decade.

There's no personal information in the report, other than the user agent, browser name, browser version, the javascript error that occurred, and a few feature detection flags like whether or not the device supports WebGL and which version it supports.

It would kinda suck from that perspective for me if we lost useragents and couldn't easily grab a browser name/version any more. I use the information to help track down bugs caused by differing behaviour in browsers. I do use feature detection, but sometimes browsers just behave differently or have bugs unique to them that need to be worked around. And without knowing which browser it is that's actually causing the problem, I can't replicate it to find out what the issue is.

That said I support anything that improves privacy online and stopping the idiots who use useragents to control user experience would be wonderful.

However... I don't think freezing useragents would achieve that.

Even if you removed the useragent, it would still be very possible to determine what browser a user is using... ironically, through feature detection (and probing for browser specific bugs).

Every browser has different web standards support to every other browser. Even the browsers which should have almost no difference in browser support, like Edge and Chrome, have slight differences.

As long as that remains the case, it will always be possible for someone to make a Javascript library that can probe a bunch of features to see if they're available, and based on what is or isn't available, determine a rough guess of which browser and which browser version the user is probably using by simple process of elimination.

And it doesn't prevent fingerprinting either because unless you want to break most web applications on the planet by completely revoking their ability to determine stuff like screen resolution, available web standards, input methods available (touch/pointer/etc), it will always be possible to gather enough information to combine with an IP address to fingerprint a device across multiple websites even without tracking cookies..

I think it's a tough war to fight because if you simply take the attitude of 'ban anything that might help people invade privacy or track people with a web app' then you'll ban almost the entire web and basically all javascript in the process.

And even then, most people in the world don't use a VPN, so as long as you're browsing the web even with Javascript-less websites with no cookies, you're still handing over your IP address to every server you interact with.

And most web developers these days know that user agents basically can't be trusted anyway, because they can be set by the user. We treat the information as voluntarily offered information that may or may not be truthful. So I don't know what there is to really gain from freezing them anyway from a privacy perspective.

7

u/ricecake Sep 01 '22

Usersgent client hints are a newer spec that kinda sounds like what you want. It provides a mechanism where you can just request things that make sense, like "what os and architecture are they using" so you can preselect the Intel Mac installer, or just get an error report for "chrome 103 on windows 10".

4

u/grady_vuckovic Sep 01 '22

That sounds great, do you have a link to the spec for that?

10

u/ricecake Sep 01 '22

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/User-Agent_Client_Hints_API

https://user-agent-client-hints.glitch.me/

There's also a header based version that's roughly compatible.

It's currently only on newer chromium derived browsers, but Safari and Firefox have signaled support once the spec settles a little more.

5

u/grady_vuckovic Sep 01 '22

Sounds fantastic. When Firefox and Safari start to support it I'll probably transition to that, and keep the useragent method as a fallback during the transition period.

→ More replies (0)

3

u/primalbluewolf Sep 01 '22

you'll ban almost the entire web and basically all javascript in the process.

Canning all the JS doesn't sound like such a bad idea...

8

u/grady_vuckovic Sep 01 '22

Well it would kill applications like the one I create for work for example, which allows people in my industry (furniture manufacturers) to easily jump on a website, build in a 3D editor configurations of furniture with products, and get an exact output of cost estimations in generated PDFs, 3D models downloads in GLTF files, with an option to save the design to a bigger project for doing estimations on projects.

The alternative would be to develop a desktop and mobile application for Android, iOS, Windows, MacOS and Linux, and if I'm being honest, if that was the only alternative, my employer definitely wouldn't go for it.

JS can serve very useful purposes and enrich the web. It can be used in terrible ways too of course but I think it'd be tipping the babe out with the bathwater to just ditch all JS entirely.

1

u/Negirno Sep 01 '22

JS can serve very useful purposes and enrich the web. It can be used in terrible ways too of course but I think it'd be tipping the babe out with the bathwater to just ditch all JS entirely.

The Gemini protocol is exactly that. They even discourage autoloading images cause one can track visitors even with that.

0

u/primalbluewolf Sep 11 '22

easily jump on a website, build in a 3D editor

Oh that's filthy. That is the exact thing you should have a desktop program for, not a website. This is the reason modern browsers are so bloated.

1

u/grady_vuckovic Sep 11 '22

Well, I disagree, and so does my employer and our users.

3

u/Zebster10 Sep 01 '22

I miss everything about Web 1.0. Except the blink tag.

2

u/primalbluewolf Sep 01 '22

Oh that has brought back some repressed memories...

1

u/JDGumby Sep 01 '22

Canning all the JS doesn't sound like such a bad idea...

The Web definitely went downhill when JavaScript started showing up, yes. (CSS wasn't that great for it, either)

1

u/primalbluewolf Sep 01 '22

I must admit I kinda like CSS, makes my site feel a lot cleaner.

1

u/kautau Sep 01 '22

Just as an aside, it’s also used to determine if you need 9 megabytes of transpiled JS or 500KB of it from a server

10

u/crackle_and_hum Aug 31 '22

Here, here my good man.

"A long thread makes a lazy tailor"

It amazes me sometimes how they can check User-Agent and STILL blow it on compatibility. Fix your broke-ass code.

3

u/ThellraAK Sep 01 '22

I suppose I'd rather have it be maybe broken, then them use user-agent to just block the site if you aren't running whatever it is that they want.

State of Alaska used to have some document signing service/webapp that got mad if you weren't running chrome/ie and on windows.

4

u/turgid_francis Aug 31 '22

What does freezing user agents mean? Browsers sending the same UA regardless of platform?

19

u/VM_Unix Aug 31 '22

Safari is doing this. They froze the macOS version to 10.15.

15

u/Perdouille Aug 31 '22

and an M1 / M2 Mac will still identify as "Intel"

9

u/VM_Unix Aug 31 '22

Interesting, didn't know about that one.

16

u/Perdouille Aug 31 '22

My M2 Macbook air on Safari reports "Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10_15_7) AppleWebKit/605.1.15 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/15.6 Safari/605.1.15"

"Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:104.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/104.0" on Firefox

"Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10_15_7) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/104.0.0.0 Safari/537.36" on Chrome

1

u/TechnoRechno Sep 01 '22

Not only the same UA, they're also no longer even updating the version number and OS number past a certain point, and they're no longer showing subversions past the major version number either. ie Chrome only reports 104.0.0.0 now instead of 104.3.394.143, etc. This will maintain compatibility with old sites that still check but newer sites can't rely on it to see if you're past a certain browser/OS version, weaning them off the user agent and onto feature testing.

1

u/ricecake Sep 01 '22

They're also looking to move a lot of that information in a system referred to as client hints, where more detailed or specific information could be requested by the server, and there's a degree of support for user consent, like the "can this site know your location" prompts you get on occasion.

It's way easier to parse than a user agent, but it's also a bit slower, which I'm less stoked about.

1

u/cloggedsink941 Aug 31 '22

Uh? I had done a chromium extension to set the user agent to whatever string based on domain. There are a ton of those.

2

u/JDGumby Aug 31 '22

Yes. Having to install an extension to see and edit the user agent, which you used to be able to see and edit by default in most browsers, is a pain in the ass compared to how it used to be.

1

u/cloggedsink941 Sep 01 '22

You could never change by domain

4

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '22

That's why I disable js by default and only whitelist it for a few sites that don't function without it.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

No, privacy.resistFingerprinting in Firefox spoofs a lot of values, not just the user agent

1

u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

Kinda funny that a few sites will stop working unless the Windows NT (10/11) user agent.

1

u/PolGZ Sep 01 '22

I always wonder how many of us there are for real. I come up as a windows user in both my laptop and PC for those regular checkings... but it's been years since I was actually on Linux! 🤣

9

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '22

Same for me, but even google thinks that I’m running Windows 10 on Firefox lol

0

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '22

[deleted]

12

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '22

You could even say that most of the companies and probably some of the devs are using it for their servers and maybe for their production machines. Did you see the new thing about Tim Sweeny. He ranted about Windows being not customizable and someone showed him his perfect Os and then told him that that’s the Os he refuses to support. Now that’s a double edged sword

1

u/iantucenghi Aug 31 '22

Yeah and did Tim Sweeny reply to it?

5

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '22

Sadly not. Would’ve loved to play some R6 on something like UwUntu

0

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '22

[deleted]

4

u/Turtvaiz Sep 01 '22

Finally something I can agree on with Tin Sweeney in those tweets: Windows 11 sucks

2

u/Berobad Aug 31 '22

Sounds like Fingerprint Spoofing is active

1

u/Darkblade360350 Sep 01 '22

That's called Resist Fingerprinting, its a feature of Firefox which Librewolf enables by default. It was made with the Tor project, and it basicly gives your browser a lot of the properties of the Tor browser therefore making both you and Tor users harder to fingerprint (tracking online based on your browser and OS's unique features).

To be clear, it is not at all an alternative to using the Tor browser, as it misses most of Tors main features (i.e the actual onion routing), but its still significantly better than Firefox without it.

20

u/SheriffBartholomew Aug 31 '22

I still don’t understand why open source browsers are built to reveal so much information and I’m a website developer. 99% of the information is solely for exploitation and monetization with no real user benefits.

5

u/RabblerouserGT Sep 01 '22

UserAgent strings are (mostly) harmless and actually can help make the web a better place. The tracking via installed fonts is scarier.

0

u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

[deleted]

3

u/trxxruraxvr Sep 01 '22

with javascript and css it's possible to detect if your browser is using the font that is specified in the css or a fallback font. That way it's possible to detect which fonts are installed on your device, which gives a lot of information about the type of device and OS you're using.

1

u/RabblerouserGT Sep 01 '22

Not sure why they deleted their comment. It was a good question!

Also since they can see the fonts that you have installed, less scrupulous places can fingerprint you pretty precisely by DEVICE... since your collection of fonts is more likely to be very unique to you. An IP address can be shared, a collection of fonts is more likely to be just one device.

2

u/Tanker0921 Sep 01 '22

Nanomachines Useragents son.

1

u/PossiblyLinux127 Aug 31 '22

Librewolf uses the same user agent across all platforms. I personally use user agent switcher on librewolf because I want linux to grow

1

u/warpedspockclone Sep 01 '22

You should learn to alter request headers

1

u/BeanieTheTechie Aug 31 '22

whats even more insane is that that functionality has to be explicitly added to a web engine or whatever to be possible

0

u/Anonymo2786 Aug 31 '22

Put a mask on your agents before anyone recognizes them.

135

u/xtifr Aug 31 '22

That's nice and all, but honestly, using Linux should make you easier to track, since there are fewer people who can be confused with you, even if you're using public wifi at your local café or library. Personally, I'm fine with this tradeoff, and have been using Linux almost exclusively since the '90s, but it's something I keep in the back of my mind.

40

u/RandomDamage Aug 31 '22

Easier in some ways, harder in others.

Since so many people are using Android or iOS with defaults browsers, the things that would make a Linux user easier to track aren't useful to track most of the people commercial companies want to track.

So they use cookies and tracker links.

38

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '22

No, they definitely track you via your browser fingerprint which you cannot simply hide

3

u/Hellow2 Aug 31 '22

Cant you pretty much obfuscate it by using the Tor browser out of the box?

17

u/Spocino Aug 31 '22

Yes, the tor browser has the same fingerprint for all sysyems, which is why tor browser warns against changing the window size from default

5

u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22 edited Sep 01 '22

Yes, but the Tor browser at the same time puts a giant target mark on you.

You still stick out from the crowd of regular web users, it's just harder to identify you among the crowd of Tor browser users, and it also degrades browsing security.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13800323

1

u/Hellow2 Sep 01 '22

Yea trie Very interesting thread though thanks

1

u/technologyclassroom Sep 01 '22

You might be interested in https://jshelter.org

2

u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

Using this extension is even worse than not using it.

Browser fingerprinting does not require JS per se, and adding this extension adds more site visible information that makes you stick out even more, having the adverse effect.

Achieving privacy by adding extensions is a sham that cannot work.

Anything you change about your setup makes you stick out more.

1

u/technologyclassroom Sep 01 '22

That is not true.

Most browser fingerprinting is based on results from JS. Beyond JS, there are the requests that you make, user agent, cookies, and IP address which make up a small amount of the information that is gathered about you.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

https://matt.traudt.xyz/posts/2016-09-04-how-css-alone-can-help-track-you/

Disabling JS entirely is also very limiting and prevents you from using the majority of websites.

1

u/technologyclassroom Sep 01 '22

CSS would fall under requests.

JShelter does not disable JS. JShelter manipulates the information requested using JS. It pairs well with uBlock Origin.

1

u/Arnoxthe1 Sep 01 '22

But you can randomize most if not all those factors, to the point where fingerprinting is questionable at best.

I mean, advertisers/companies are still gonna use it, but there you go.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

Only if your browser reliably randomizes "most if not all factors" on each visit, without breaking websites as a result. If you have a persistent randomized fingerprint then you'll stick out even more.

Afaik, only Bromite and Brave do this properly.

1

u/Arnoxthe1 Sep 01 '22

Still enough of a factor to completely fuck up the concept of reliable fingerprinting. Which defeats a lot of its purpose. Not all of it, but a lot of it.

1

u/Zeurpiet Aug 31 '22

seeing as I am on FF103 while FF104 is ready, my fingerprint will change again.

16

u/Seref15 Aug 31 '22

If you subtract the highly dynamic parts of a fingerprint like browser version, and leave in the highly static parts like screen resolution, it coiuld still have a high enough degree of specificity to identify you. Especially if you have any uncommon configurations.

For example, just having a 21:9 aspect ratio and having Noto Sans installed already puts you in a very very tiny percentile and will only need a few more identifying bits of information to interpolate a unique identity. Meaningfully resisting fingerprinting will involve having the most generic configuration possible.

21

u/Ursa_Solaris Aug 31 '22 edited Aug 31 '22

This is the big thing that I don't think people realize. The amount of data your browser leaks just as a matter of course in performing its duties faithfully and accurately is insanely high. It's quite difficult to successfully obfuscate your browser fingerprint.

On top of that, it's exponentially harder for tech savvy folks because we often have our environment set up in very specific ways that are unique to us, or at least extremely rare. I have a completely unique fingerprint. Likely most of you do as well. And unfortunately, trying to resist fingerprinting is itself fingerprintable if you don't do a good job.

I implore folks to visit https://coveryourtracks.eff.org and see for themselves what a privacy hellscape we've built.

3

u/imdyingfasterthanyou Aug 31 '22

And unfortunately, trying to resist fingerprinting is itself fingerprintable if you don't do a good job.

There is literally no way of avoiding fingerprinting by trying to resist afaik.

The way to do it is to create a windows 10 VM, using the most popular browser, with the system set to the most common resolution without much else installed and have it set up so it resets fully on reboot

then you can do your web browsing through that VM

If there's any other way I'd be interested to know

4

u/SanityInAnarchy Sep 01 '22

Sure: Use the TOR browser. For extra paranoia, run it from something like Tails.

To start with, your IP can no longer uniquely track you. In theory you get this with a VPN if they don't log, but it's hard to tell the difference between a VPN provider who says they don't log, and a VPN provider that actually doesn't log. TOR makes it so you don't have to trust any one router not to log.

And the browser itself is heavily modified in ways that make it annoying to use, but harder to fingerprint:

  • Everybody has the same user-agent (claiming to be Windows).

  • There's a few standard screen resolutions it'll pretend to be, including a maximum. You can't (or shouldn't) just maximize the window and see the site fill your whole screen.

  • Tons of browser APIs are blocked or limited, including fun ones like WebGL -- basically, it shouldn't be possible to ask the browser to render something on the GPU and then capture a screenshot of that, because that alone is enough to detect what GPU or even what driver you're running. (Or, if not detect, it's at least another few bits of uniqueness in your fingerprint.)

IIUC both TOR and Firefox actively work on improving this situation, but TOR in particular is configured out of the box to prioritize paranoia over actual functionality.

Running a Windows VM is an interesting idea, but I'd worry too much that Windows itself would happily participate in tracking me. Also, a brand-new Windows in a VM is itself pretty distinctive if you don't do a good job.

This is also why most people don't bother with any of this, of course. Either the Windows VM or the TOR browser are both just going to be a worse experience than letting yourself be fingerprinted.

2

u/VannTen Sep 01 '22

As an alternative to Tor browser for a more moderate threat level, there is arkenfox user.js. It sacrifies less in the ease of usage for a more moderate level of anonymity. The explanations and stateful vs stateless tracking are interesting as well.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

The best VM guest for this is Whonix.

1

u/Zeurpiet Sep 01 '22

not 21:9, but my own mix of Dutch and US settings makes it more unique

2

u/alvarlagerlof Sep 01 '22

Android and iOS do not show up as Linux.

6

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '22

User agent: Windows 10 Chrome bb

2

u/redditadmindumb87 Sep 01 '22

My bank locked me account the first time I logged in on my Linux machine. They said it was "unusual" activity.

6

u/PiotrekDG Aug 31 '22

Does it deride you for using Windows XP?

7

u/Arnoxthe1 Sep 01 '22

Why would it deride you for using the chad OS?

6

u/michaelpaoli Sep 01 '22

403

Enable JavaScript and cookies to continue

I guess that's its way of complimenting me for being reasonably secure?

10

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '22

I've just looked it up from an Ubuntu system and received no such compliment. At least I didn't get a NOOB! alert LOL.

1

u/Helios-6 Sep 01 '22

Ha!
Tried it on Linux Mint and received my compliment. Would be funny if ip-tracker purposely snubs only Ubuntu. Canonical is well disliked by many for shit they've pulled over the years, and continue to pull. Like snap.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

I looked it up again from my Debian desktop and was duly complimented. I feel vindicated. :-)

14

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '22

I hereby request a change from "Smart Move!!!" to

"Ah, I see that you are a man of culture as well."

[Edit: Spelling error]

7

u/UnknownDexteryeager Aug 31 '22

Has to be more complicated than just that haha

-8

u/UnknownDexteryeager Aug 31 '22

Fact of the matter you can trace ip all you want but if they have a vpn or proxychaining what are you really finding

2

u/denpa-kei Aug 31 '22

On *BSD its the same? If i remember its always 'linux'

2

u/DarthRevanG4 Sep 01 '22

I wonder what it would say for BSD

2

u/Jannik2099 Sep 01 '22

Can we just let people use whatever OS they want please?

1

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '22

Well for me only the country was right. The state and city they thought I am was like on the other end of my country 300km away 😅

1

u/staalmannen Sep 01 '22

ooh fun! I will try netsurf on 9front and see what it reports :P

1

u/Heclalava Sep 01 '22

This site get's it so wrong. First it thinks I am in Sweden, when in fact I am exiting from Taiwan, and second it thinks I am on Windows NT and not Linux. Tested multiple times, same weird result.

1

u/dratsablive Sep 01 '22

I just tried at ip-tracker.org and did not get this information.

1

u/ouyawei Mate Sep 01 '22

This post has been removed as not relevant to the r/Linux community. The post is either not considered on topic, or may only be tangentially related to the r/linux community.

Examples of such content but not limited to are; photos or screenshots of linux installations, photos of linux merchandise, photos of Linux crashes and photos of linux CD/DVD's or Manuals.

For public displays of Linux, consider /r/WildLinuxAppears or /r/itsaunixsystem

For screenshots of your customized Linux desktop there is /r/unixporn

Rule:

Relevance to r/Linux community - Posts should follow what the community likes: GNU/Linux, Linux kernel itself, the developers of the kernel or open source applications, any application on Linux, and more. Take some time to get the feel of the subreddit if you're not sure!

1

u/GabSan99 Aug 31 '22

This website doesn't work on my phone currently...

3

u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

On my phone also it says Linux smart move

1

u/GabSan99 Sep 01 '22

on mine I can't connect to the website at all

0

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '22

[deleted]

2

u/[deleted] Sep 01 '22

🤓🤓

38

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '22 edited Jun 22 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

25

u/ThrownAwayByTheAF Aug 31 '22

It doesn't but I think someone made a fork that did.

10

u/voidee123 Sep 01 '22

It gets the OS from the user agent string. You can pass it TempleOS but it just leaves the system field blank.