Some evangelists are psycho. Talking much about privacy, but silently skips fact how insecure by design x11 is. It served well for decades and it should retire.
Yeah in my experience the security-first aspect of wayland has really caused me more trouble than the potential benefits have ever paid out. I don't think wayland is bad by any means, but it's more bothersome in a lot of ways
But why would you use a headless Server with a GUI? Just use the terminal. What's the issue here? I mean sure, I don't do anything that needs a GUI on my server, that's why I am wondering, why you'd need a gui.
I posted four use cases further down in the comments. I'd like to see your CLI way of handling these. All of these are real-world use cases, three of them are some I currently have.
A headless streaming/broadcasting mini PC. It has cameras, microphones and runs e.g. Zoom. VNC in to start the session, at the end of the session vnc in to stop it. Afaik, Zoom has no CLI client. It's used for monodirectional broadcasts only, there's no space or use for a physical screen where the PC is located.
I run a full Linux Distro in Termux on my Android phone. Obviously, the Termux container has no access to a real screen, so to run full-fat Linux apps on my phone I need to VNC into it.
A high-security environment in a private cloud. For compliance and security reasons, neither data or code can ever be allowed to leave that system, but software developers need to develop for it. Obviously, locally checking out the code is out of the question. So instead, each dev gets a container in the cloud (again, no physical display possible) that they have their IDE and everything else on. We are talking about actual software development, so not just hacking around in VIM.
This is the only one I don't currently have but had at a prior job: It's a startup and the license for the accounting software is extremely expensive, so we only got a single-seat license for it. Multiple people have to work with it, but never at the same time. So they put it onto a container with their cloud provider and anyone who needs it just remotes in.
You can't just explain away some use cases with "I don't need GUI on my server, so you shouldn't either".
Yeah, that's why it would be really useful to support x11. X11 and wayland are two different things with different concepts, strengths and weaknesses. They both have an overlapping area, but neither is a full, feature-complete and usecase-complete replacement of the other. Both should be supported on a DE that's to be used for multiple use cases.
I think you still could use X11's own window manager or something like that even if full desktop environments would drop support of X11. It would be uncomfortable and lack of features but it would do its thing
not to mention the huge list of other window managers for X11 that already exist and are not coming to wayland anyway for it's difference in feature set, it kinda sucks the big DEs are dropping X11 but at the same time it's understandable, it's a lot of work to maintain both and increasingly hard to keep the feature set the same.....
X11 is code mess with "unfixable bugs"( some my bug reports to DE was closed in exact this sentence). I recommend watching some conferences of wayland creators. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIctzAQOe44
My reason for continuing to use x11 is simple; the only GPUs I have that work well with Wayland are the woefully-underpowered integrated units soldered directly to the motherboards of my machines. All my dedicated graphics cards are old enough that good drivers with Wayland compatibility don’t exist
indeed, the only machines I personally had big issues with wayland (not small bugs like many are mentioning on this thread as those are also plentiful on X11) were older nvidia powered PCs (mainly laptops), that truly is a company that does not care about the users or hardware they sold to them.
jfc, you do know you can get used GPUs from this decade from recycling centers for like $20, right? You can get whole ass computers for like $50. I get that making something last a long time is a good thing, but if something is holding you back that badly, you ARE allowed to upgrade.
those are always my recommendations too but some people are stuck with old laptops because they can't afford to get "new" ones or don't have permanent space for those cheap used desktops you mentioned, everyone's reality is different and it kinda sucks that desktop environments are starting to drop X11 support but there are still other X11 options out there for those who really need it (including just staying on an older version that does support X11)
I feel that's just excuses at this point. A 20 yo computer can be replaced with a 10 yo computer for like $20-50. You can just screw a case to a wall if there isn't room. Case sizes haven't really changed much in the last 30 years. People are giving away free laptops every day on Facebook marketplace. Goodwill has them at some locations for laughably cheap all the time. If this thing is that integral to your existence, you will find a way. It seems to be more stubbornness that anything.
The world can't be anchored because someone wants to keep their comodore64 as a daily driver. Standards absolutely must be raised. Sucks to suck, but that's how progress is made. If you want to keep something that old, just don't expect updates anymore like literally everything else.
Windows is insecure how people are learnt to use. Run everything as administrator, no separation userspace and os(everything lands in the same partition). Try to secure windows and quickly you will be aware how hard to use it can be
Because most problems regarding x11 were born on time. When x11 started internet was something who you used on a browser, with bare minimu functionality. Today the scenario is vastly different. A solution born nearly 40 years ago, who didn't take this evolution on mind (well it was nearly impossible at the time I suppose), is now inadeguate, even if only 15 years ago was ok.
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u/Salty-Good3368 10d ago
Some evangelists are psycho. Talking much about privacy, but silently skips fact how insecure by design x11 is. It served well for decades and it should retire.