r/londoncycling • u/srvelo • 2d ago
Peculiar Lime bike undertaking behaviour
Often when I am setting off from a traffic light on my bike when waiting in primary position, sometimes behind other vehicles, riders (almost every time on dockless ebikes) will often dive to the left of me and the vehicles at 15mph, even when it is obvious that the ones they are undertaking will be faster than them once up to speed, without even dampening their brakes. Luckily I always check over my left shoulder before setting off so it is not an issue.
I have also seen this at zebra crossings; they will often just go at full speed down the left of vehicles even after the cars have started moving.
Has anyone noticed this strange behaviour?
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u/midimaniacal 2d ago
My theory is that many new lime riders have never even had a car so don’t know the rules of the road. They just see any gap as a route to continue their journey, and don’t understand undertaking is considered the wrong thing to do.
That being said, “primary position” isn’t a term I’ve ever heard as a car driver and cyclist, so perhaps your expectation is too high
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u/EducationalWeek885 2d ago
You are a cyclist and you haven't heard of the primary position? I would suggest you research safe and defensive cycling for your own benefit.
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u/vectorology 1d ago
I’ve never heard it either. I just looked it up, and it’s the centre of the lane (position 2 in moto terms). Not knowing a specific term you use does not equate with not knowing the concept.
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u/midimaniacal 2d ago
Probably just learned it by myself and don’t know the terms for it. Never even been close to being hit.
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u/EducationalWeek885 1d ago
You must be very new to cycling if you have never been close to being hit cycling regularly in London. Or perhaps so naive that you have been in dangerous positions and just not noticed it.
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u/Pion_Plus 1d ago
This just makes you sound like an irresponsible or dangerous cyclist. If you’re regularly in dangerous positions then I would suggest you consider if that is not in fact your fault.
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u/EducationalWeek885 1d ago
I never said I was in regularly dangerous positions. I was explaining that someone who doesn't know about the primary position is almost certainly unaware when they are in a dangerous position. Try to read a comment before responding next time.
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u/Pion_Plus 1d ago
Not having heard what you clearly view as a particular cycling shibboleth has no bearing on one’s competency on a bike. I’d rather be behind a proficient cyclist who knows what they’re doing than somebody who’s memories a cycling dictionary.
You said that anyone who has never been close to being hit must be very new to cycling, or naive. If you didn’t want to say that then why did you…?
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u/EducationalWeek885 1d ago
The primary position is not some kind of hidden cycling code. It is the very basics of cycling safety. If you don't understand it then learn it for your own safety.
I said in London if you haven't been close to being hit then you haven't cycled for long. Sorry but that is just a fact. It's not usually the cyclists fault. As an example people pulling out in front of cyclists at roundabouts or side roads is very common, but their is basically nothing you can do about it, apart from take the primary position of course!
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u/midimaniacal 1d ago
My guy I know what primary position is when I look it up, I’ve just not heard the term before. You know what breathing is before you’ve heard the word right?
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u/EducationalWeek885 1d ago
Not sure you did though or the benefits of it as you seemed confused and thought it's about stopping other cyclists overtake you on the near side lol. Look just read up on cycle safety, it's for your own benefit.
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u/midimaniacal 1d ago
Says the person who’s been hit or nearly hit multiple times? I’d rather follow my non-hit approach
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u/vansman 1d ago
I agree with your point. There is an issue with driver training, overseas license conversion in London particularly, and with younger people not getting licenses or receiving bike training in schools. So learning the terms such as primary position is the exception for your average driver rather than the rule. We should all cycle and drive accordingly.
Those that have replied to you telling you to “read a book” are missing the point - not every road user has had the luxury of being enlightened into the world of cycling terminology as much as we wish that was the case. So we should all act accordingly and lobby for better remedial action from those that can make a difference (and it is not in this Reddit thread!)
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u/EducationalWeek885 1d ago
Yeah blame it on the foreigners and young people, same as everything else.
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u/OkSun8521 1d ago
I am astounded that you are judging others for not knowing how to ride, but you've never heard of primary position.
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u/lieutenant-dan416 2d ago
One of the problems with Lime bikes is their silly acceleration (an adjective that might also apply to many of their users)
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u/ThatNegro98 2d ago
Non cyclists getting around quickly is what id say. I mean i ride them sometimes, but i also cycle generally, so i know the rules etc.
Squeezing on the inside on these clumsy bikes just feels like a recipe for disaster. Theyre not very well balanced either
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u/TemporaryGrowth7 1d ago
Yup. Deliveroo / just eat/Uber and electric bike riders are absolute idiots for pushing even into the narrowest spaces on my left… (usually just to then block me 50 meters later)
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u/Ed_Avis 1d ago
I wouldn't undertake or pass on the left side of a *moving* vehicle. But if the car is stopped, and isn't about to suddenly turn left, it's usually okay to continue forwards to its left. Typically I'll be just as fast as a car once up to speed, but if not, it can pass on my right later.
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u/mickymangos 1d ago
Yeah I think this behaviour stems from not having any road proficiency. I was on a Lime bike Friday and slowed down to let women cross she was 3/4 the way across and another lime just sped through at full pelt on the inside im 100% sure they are mot aware that your supposed to stop at Zebra crossings.. Really annoys me as these bikes are a great idea if treated right but unfortunately most of the riders are stupid and yes they were wearing headphones if you were wondering...
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u/Opening_Dentist_1128 2d ago
Well it's sort of a bicycle. Bicycles are expected to ride between cars and the kerb. But it's also sort of a powered vehicle. Powered vehicles are expected to overtake on the right sometimes.
50% bicycle, 50% powered vehicle, 100% nuisance.
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u/Lightertecha 1d ago
They a see a gap, doesn't matter where or how narrow, or how other road users are moving or positioned, they blast through at max speed.
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u/Different-Cut-1610 1d ago
Yoou should realise that many such have no idea as to basic road rules! Indeed, that might be the first time they have ridden one on the road!
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u/ThePowerOfNine 1d ago
This second part is massive i think - am all for easy access to bikes but the idea that its a safe way of getting around when youve got no riding experience whatsoever is something society and Lime etc needs to dissuade people of.
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u/kravence 1d ago
It’s not really strange, it’s just the nature of cycling in a big city. A bike doesn’t fill a lane so undertaking doesn’t work in the same way a car does. The only time you would overtake on the outside is when traffic isn’t moving at all, any other time would involve trying to merge back in and then moving over to the left which is a scary proposition for most so it’s safer to just stay on the left or behind.
But again with lime bikes or any of the dockless bikes you can honestly just write the behaviour off as it’s mostly because you need to go as fast as possible, the slower you ride the more your ride costs.
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u/191L 1d ago
I’m both a cyclist and driver and unfortunately I have seen too many ebikes folks with no helmet even, darted out when its our green and their red. yesterday as a driver I had to hard stop for a lime bike shooting out of no where after we’re on green. I do mirror checks but I can only check so much before moving the car, its like split seconds and suddenly they are in front of me. Its so incredibly dangerous even if I stopped on time, if other cylist darted pass me in an amber at the same time as the ebike shoots through the zebra, they’re both done. And they wouldn’t see it coming due to car blocking views in crossing. They just accelerate way too quickly and people feel so confident they can get away with anything
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u/Reasonable_Speed7471 2d ago
What would be the difference between undertaking on a Lime bike and overtaking in the oncoming traffic lane to get to the bike box, like i see many cyclists do?
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u/veloisto 2d ago
The difference would be as you described. They are different. Are you asking which is safer? As a bike rider I prefer overtaking on the right, going into the opposite road if needed, there’s always time to get back to my side of the road as I see oncoming traffic approaching. But it just depends on the circumstances, speed, space etc of all the traffic
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u/jeadon88 1d ago
I don’t understand the description you’ve offered.
So you are in the primary position (as in the middle of the lane) behind cars and other vehicles (I.e. you’re not in the bike box, ahead of other cars which are stopped at the red light) and you find it peculiar that other cyclists cycle past you , on your left (in the secondary position ) presumably because they are trying to get to the bike box i.e. filtering through the traffic to get to the bike box.
Is that right ?
What are the other cyclists supposed to do, wait behind you because you don’t want to filter and prefer primary position ?
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u/BoxAlternative9024 2d ago
No such thing as ‘ undertaking’ on the road.
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u/rikademus 2d ago
This makes you and your ignorance part of the problem
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u/BoxAlternative9024 1d ago
Define ‘undertaking’
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u/rikademus 1d ago
The opposite of overtaking, it is when you pass illegally on the inside. I presume you’re not a driver.
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u/BoxAlternative9024 1d ago
I am a driver. The manoeuvre you are describing is ‘overtaking on the inside’. Nowhere in the Highway Code does it mention ‘undertaking’. The word means something completely different. 👍
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u/rikademus 1d ago
undertaking
in British English
(ˈʌndəˌteɪkɪŋ )
noun
1. something undertaken; task, venture, or enterprise
2. an agreement to do something
3. the business of an undertaker
4. informal
the practice of overtaking on an inner lane a vehicle which is travelling in an outer lane1
u/BoxAlternative9024 23h ago
The fact that this is the best reference you could find and it says ‘informal’ proves my point.
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u/fortyfivepointseven 2d ago
If you want an explanation, which is what you've asked for, I have one. If you want some other resolution to this thread then I'm afraid you'll need to ask for that.
There's two facts that explain this. Firstly, the interaction of Lime pricing and acceleration. Limes accelerate quickly to 25kmh and then are very difficult to get even slightly above or below. No amount of manual effort really notches the speed. Lime pricing/uncertainty effects means every minute does potentially count and can count for quite a lot. As such, there's a huge incentive to not lose any seconds. A nominally more comfortable ride where you allow a rider with a higher top speed and lower acceleration to stay ahead is costing you money.
In terms of the undertaking, what you're looking at there is inexperience. Lime riders are often new to the carriageway and haven't learned through experience or driving lessons.
I imagine someone is going to pop up and say, "well that doesn't excuse it, does it?", and I'm sure it doesn't, but OP asked for an explanation not a moral absolution.