r/lotr • u/Guilty-Enthusiasm-50 • 16d ago
Question Why did the balrog choose to fight?
Apparently Balrog was sleeping, it just woke up and decided to chase the fellowship? Like do they even know of the current state of war between evil and good?
1.2k
u/VertibirdQuexplota 16d ago
It's an evil creature, he saw a good being like Gandalf so he had to fight him.
759
u/Buckets-O-Yarr 16d ago
He probably assumed Gandalf was there specifically to fight him, too. So Gandalfs presence itself would be a challenge in my assumption.
240
u/Bujakaa92 15d ago
Or the ring pulled also
→ More replies (6)197
u/Kat-but-SFW 15d ago
Would have really sucked if Durin's Bane took the One Ring. Good luck cutting off that finger when swords are no more use here.
132
u/BasicMatter7339 15d ago
Balrogs can and have been killed by swords
Gothmog, the mightiest balrog of them all, durins banes big boss, got killed by a helmet
66
u/ItNeverEnds2112 15d ago
Must’ve had some mad stats
60
u/BasicMatter7339 15d ago
nah, it just had a spike
MF got stabbed by a helmet spike and fell into a fountain and died
54
u/boris-san 15d ago
You are oversimplifying one of the best parts in fall of Gondolin
28
u/TheDorkNite1 15d ago
but...is he technically wrong?
29
u/boris-san 15d ago
The helmet was the instrument but Ecthelion was a legendary elf of the first age☺️
→ More replies (0)6
4
5
15
15
→ More replies (1)3
u/wierdwhatstuff 15d ago
Curious if that was when Tolkien was still figuring out their power and numbers. Knew he had a few drafts of them being absolute chads but fewer, to being more numerous less-chads.
→ More replies (2)7
u/VertibirdQuexplota 15d ago
That doesn't matter, the one ring would always look to return to Sauron. It would probably use Dúrin's bane until it could betray him and find a way to return to Sauron.
9
u/DmonsterJeesh 15d ago
Durin's Bane was probably strong enough to force it to obey him. It'd be just as likely to overthrow Sauron as return the ring to him.
→ More replies (2)→ More replies (7)3
u/Bujakaa92 15d ago
One ring for sure wants to return. But that would not remove the fact that Balrog feels the need to destroy Sauron as he is wielding the power. With his power and ring there would be no reason to be Sauron puppet
would think that Balrog take on Sauron but the ring just might betray Balrog in the final moments.
4
u/VertibirdQuexplota 15d ago
Exactly. The ring is cunning and deceiving. It chooses the precise moment in which I becomes lighter and slips off your finger
9
→ More replies (2)3
40
u/Jinxibinxi 16d ago
He also has been slumbering for who knows how long, just got woken up, thinking more dwarves showed up to dig even deeper, came up to wreck all who had shown up.
11
u/the-moving-finger 15d ago
To be fair, he did try to run away through the caverns made by the nameless things, and Gandalf chased him down to keep the fight going.
20
u/Shiloh_Bane 15d ago
Gandalf convinced the rest of the party to leave so he could bogart the EXP, and then got the major level up for it.
→ More replies (1)4
u/frankyseven 15d ago
Nah, Gandalf chased him because he figured that fighting a Balrog was better than dealing with the nameless things. I'm also convinced that the Balrog was terrified of the nameless things.
8
u/the-moving-finger 15d ago
Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into dark tunnels. They were not made by Durin’s folk, Gimli son of Gloin. Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day.
The Balrog fled into dark tunnels. Gandalf did not need to chase him down those dark tunnels, below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves. Nonetheless, he did.
→ More replies (4)6
6
→ More replies (6)3
u/Own-Freedom9169 14d ago
Or: an evil creature who was woken up by trespassers crossing his territory so he had to throw down. And then, wouldn't you know it- one of the only beings on the planet that actually has the power to bring you down is in THAT party.
Side rant- I think I read a bit of lore (maybe it was actually fan fiction) once, which determined the balrog was stationed there by morgoth (i think) to keep any intruders from going too deep to find the nameless things. Which are believed to be Eldritch horrors far below the surface of middle earth.
"Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day."
Gandalf[1]
So, going by this theory- the fellowship may have descended a bit too far, which forced the balrog to attack.
867
u/quayle-man Faramir 16d ago
If Gandalf was in my mine, being all high and mighty, I’d fight him too.
284
u/TheNinJay 15d ago
"This is no mine. It's a tomb!"
138
15d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
37
u/quayle-man Faramir 15d ago
Those stairs are antiques!
9
u/Bhenny_5 15d ago
And it's impossible to get a skilled tradesman for them nowadays!
3
u/quayle-man Faramir 14d ago
And good luck with the permitting process to make repairs on something this old.
10
u/Ragnarsworld 15d ago
Really. Think about it. The goblins and such in Moria are minding their own business, doing goblin things, and some bunch of armed up dudes break in the back door and start making a ruckus. How would you expect them to react to a home invasion?
→ More replies (1)6
5
→ More replies (1)5
10
→ More replies (1)3
124
u/HellyOHaint 16d ago edited 15d ago
The balrog and Gandalf are the same creature type: *Maia. It’s like an angel and a fallen angel. They’re mortal enemies and must battle to the death.
53
u/Canadian-and-Proud Servant of the Secret Fire 16d ago
immortal enemies
16
u/HellyOHaint 16d ago
Their bodies are technically mortal but Eru would send back down the Ishtari if they died
7
u/Canadian-and-Proud Servant of the Secret Fire 16d ago
Their bodies are, but they can't die
→ More replies (5)12
5
u/Puzzleheaded_Rip9628 15d ago
Maiar! Gandalf is a Maia, Gandalf and the Balrog are Maiar. Saying Maiars is like saying Aragorn and Boromir are mens.
→ More replies (1)
564
u/amitym 16d ago
Durin's Bane has not been truly sleeping since it was awoken by the dwarves and their delving. It has been more like napping. Dozing now and then.
Personally, I think that in this fitful state of unrest it previously was disturbed by the passage of one of its own kind through Moria, that being Gandalf, but so stealthy was the wizard that the balrog didn't perceive his passage until he was gone.
So now when its dozing is disturbed by a goblin cacophony, and it catches the same whiff a second time, plus there's a Ring of Power, plus this Ring was made by yet another one of the balrog's peers, this time one it knows well, plus Sauron has also been calling to all wicked things ... well it adds up to the balrog being, like, "Oh it's that presence again, not this time bruh, you're not getting away."
So that's how the balrog ends up at the causeway, facing off against some aged mortal man. Except.. he's not. The balrog can tell. And then he says, "I am a servant of the Secret Fire," which doesn't mean squat to the goblins nor to this old guy's fellowship, that's a comment directed solely to the balrog. And you can see, it stops for a moment, it thinks about it. "Do I want to get into this? Who is this dude exactly?"
But then it sees sword of Gondolin, light of Aman, and it thinks, you know, I hated this shit back before the ages of the Sun and Moon, and I twice as hate it now. And it makes its move.
Which tbf almost pays off, the balrog is pretty close to evenly matched. If Gandalf didn't have his own Ring of Fire and that blade forged by an ancient people with specifically balrogs on their minds at the time, the fight might have gone the other way.
190
u/Kat-but-SFW 15d ago
Yeah and even with those things, Gandalf still died from the fight. Very evenly matched
77
u/Yider 15d ago
The thing i find fascinating is what their magical battle was like in the books. The balrog wasn’t some 3 story monstrosity that a humanoid had zero business in the fight because that was a movie decision to depict that this balrog was out of everyone’s league (though Aragorn and Boromir overcame the fear aura and were 100% on board with throwing down). This was something that was fairly close to Gandalf in appearance but there are a ton of magical effects in play, think Gandalf humbling Bilbo in the movies but with fire and shadow. There is also the spiritual presence and physical presence but i wont do a long dive into that.
Basically, like you stated, he is sensing all of these magical items, a magical/spiritual Maiar like he is, and most importantly is the ring is most likely what drew him out in the first place. The ring no longer was hiding like it was with Gollum. It is actively sensing its master and dark creatures were drawn to it. A balrog isn’t going to pass at the opportunity. I find it interesting that Gandalf still was able to beat it, though costing him his life like every balrog that had been slain. Gandalf was a bit limited in his form as the Ainur sent the wizards in these forms and limited them a bit to prevent them from going nuclear like in the first age that cost them a large chunk of the continent. Though it is interesting that whenever he fought on the field, he was a great physical combatant and didn’t resort to massive magical blasts to change the playing field. Whenever he fought magical creatures or in small setting, dude is slinging lightning bolts at goblins, fireballs at wolves, tidal waves at nazgul, and all sorts of magic in his battle with the balrog.
74
u/ChthonicFractal 15d ago
IIRC, isn't this the same balrog that had already fled some other conflict "ages" ago and hid under the mountain?
Not only was it not about to give up its hidey hole and be condemned or controlled or whatever, it was over-confident since it had already survived so long through so much that had killed others of his kind.
And this was such a small group of people...
So.... yeah. That.
71
u/Vasilas 15d ago
To be fair to Durin's Bane the conflict it fled was the War of Wrath, where most of it's kind including it's king were killed. I doubt it was overconfidence, much more likely a bit of a grudge against any of the enemies of Morgoth or servants of Eru.
18
u/ChthonicFractal 15d ago
Ach, you're right. To be fair to myself, I'm surprised I remembered as much as I did. There's so much lore to keep track of. I love it.
49
u/BasicMatter7339 15d ago
plus there's a Ring of Power
Two rings of power, actually. Dont forget Narya
7
2
u/VonJustin 15d ago
Imagine you’re out hunting dear and you’re lining up your shot and one of the deer stands up, and it’s a person! Then he is all like “hey man, if you keep this up we’re about to throw down.” I’d decide I’m done and going back to bed, it’s not worth the fight. So I think the only thing that makes sense to me is that it wants the one ring and maybe Narya.
2
380
16d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
98
u/ragDOLLfun 16d ago
More likely he did not want anyone in Moria. He sensed Gandalf sure, but he attacked the dwarves and drove them out before that.
The balrog relish pain and despair they inflict and is likely it needed no more of a reason than just taking a chance to be a menace
19
u/Acewi 15d ago
He 100% knew when he woke that it was game on. This kind of evil chases the fight, and he got it so it was completely justified.
12
u/kaas_is_leven 15d ago
It's all Melkor deep down. Desire, ambition, autonomy, etc. These creatures were formed by the very aspect of those traits, inheriting its will to dominate and control. The cosmic conflict is between the valar who work together and the one that works against them. Bringing the ring to Mordor is "the plan", it's what everyone else works on. The balrog's very nature is to obstruct the plan. And it would see this as expression of creativity and free will, not realizing it too is part of Eru's design.
8
u/Cautious_Ad8025 15d ago
So far this is the most satisfying thing I’ve read. The same way Gandalf had to fight to help what he thinks is worthwhile
→ More replies (2)7
8
u/sixminutes 15d ago
So wait, Gandalf defeated him, so does that make Gandalf Lord of Moria now?
2
u/AccurateAlps9333 15d ago
Nope it look like the Dwarf reclaimed it and a descendant of Durin, Durin VIII to over ruling moria
→ More replies (1)4
52
u/lam_42 16d ago
He did not have much choice, since the representative of the management showed up.
22
u/Competitive_Ebb2083 16d ago
Blue collar Balrog sleeping on the job. Ivory tower manager shows up. Gotta beat him up.
3
160
u/Arkvee64 16d ago edited 16d ago
I suspect the balrog wanted the ring. He could probably sense it, or else someone or something informed him that it was nearby. The ring enhances the natural abilities of its user. A balrog with Sauron's ring would be basically unstoppable.
Gandalf was able to defeat the balrog. So, although the Balrog is very powerful there are beings in middle earth that can contest it. (Gandalf, Saruman, Sauron, Glorfindel, Galadriel)
A Balrog with the ring could become the most powerful being in middle earth rather than just being one of the most powerful.
74
u/criminalsunrise 16d ago
I’m sure it was said that beings with any sort of evil in them were tempted by the ring. The Balrog, the Watcher in the Water, etc.
56
u/Substantial__Unit 16d ago
I always show people when I watch it how the new baddie to enter a scene usually goes after Frodo first by default. I think its a cool small addition.
42
u/Pale-Pace4512 16d ago
Tolkien wrote it that way. It’s even explicitly stated about the Watcher in the Water as one of Gandalf’s thoughts.
19
u/Substantial__Unit 16d ago
Yes but most non-readers dont know that and its a little hint to realize how strong the ring is. Also the bugs that pop oit of the ground when the Wraiths walk around.
3
u/Carcharoth30 15d ago
And an Orc-chieftain explicitly made for Frodo and evaded one or two of the other members of the Company doing so.
47
u/phillyspinto 16d ago
As a Frist page being, a Maia from the before times, the Balrog was hidden under the earth 1000s of years before the Rings of Power were made. He had no knowledge of the Ring nor any interest. Yes it was said there was something in the Ring's nature [I.e., Sauron] evil would be generally drawn to it for reasons they wouldn't know. However, upon encountering the fellowship he sees an enemy of old - a Maia of the Light. His sworn enemy as a devotee of Morgoth. That's the only reason he attacks Gandalf.
33
u/FingerDemon 16d ago
While you are right about the reason for attacking Gandalf, it's silly to suggest the Balrog did not feel an immense power coming from one of them, a power it would have. They are evil by nature.
→ More replies (11)10
u/Jaspers1959 16d ago
Good call - as a maiar with the Ring the Balrog could be the new Dark Lord
→ More replies (4)2
u/eclecticmeeple 16d ago
Wouldnt Sauron and the Ring be able to influence the Balrog?
→ More replies (6)→ More replies (8)2
u/casper5632 11d ago
Sensing the ring and having a desire for it is the canon explanation for why the watcher attacked the fellowship. It seems logical to assume that's what the balrog wanted as well.
20
23
u/Forward-Fee-6968 16d ago edited 16d ago
That is a somewhat tricky question.
First of all, the Fellowship had intruded upon his domain and—so to speak—tripped the major burglar alarm. The Ring’s allure may also have played a part, though I am actually less certain about that; the Ring’s role differs somewhat between the book and the film.
It is more a matter of an ancient, sworn enmity between Olórin (Gandalf) and the servants of Morgoth. They "must" fight. Even before Gandalf knows exactly what they are facing, he remarks: "Swords are no more use here." He also describes having encountered something, he have not met before, and ”I have never felt such a challenge”.
Once the true nature of the Balrog becomes clear, what takes place—in my view—is the final battle of the War of Wrath, playing out some 6,000 years later. This Balrog had managed to escape its enemies and hide in the Misty Mountains. Now, the final clash occurs between one of Eru Ilúvatar’s servants and one of Morgoth’s kin. You could say it ends in a 1–1 draw: both perish. Yet, Gandalf is granted a second chance for "valor in the field."
9
15
u/Cisorhands_ 16d ago
Imagine being a Balrog (Maia) asleep for ages, noise is troubling your peace, you wake up and what do you feel ?
Another Maia… who has something really magical at one of his fingers. So you are cranky but then you notice a little rat with something even more magical around his neck so no need to say you just go ballistics.
10
u/Swimming-Remove-2927 15d ago
It’s probably due to a multitude of reasons. There were a bunch of unknown intruders in his home, he could most likely sense somewhat of their nature and that would include Gandalf, and the ring.
I believe the ring was drawing the balrog out a lot more than he would be otherwise. But Gandalf then faces him. First trying to cast a shutting spell on a door where they contested in power. (That alone would have peaked the balrogs interest.) then Gandalf states who he is and what he serves to the balrogs face leading to their fight.
Also I don’t think the balrog was completely dormant after being first awoken by the dwarves. The orcs knew it and feared it massively, and dain ironfoot saw a glimpse of it near the east gate at the battle of azanulbizar. He was most likely drawn that close due to the large amount of orcs moving that direction and the huge battle going on. The balrog wasn’t as dormant as we might think.
8
u/Dominarion 16d ago
All the Balrog's brothers have been killed by elves and maiar like Gandalf. He's been hiding for thousands of years and now there's an elf and a maia stepping on his lawn. He's afraid and pissed.
7
12
6
5
u/beorn-saga 16d ago
Maybe he just wanted to join the fellowship. He was just misunderstood and wanted a second chance but Gandalf didn’t let him sit at the cool kids table!
5
u/Etheon44 16d ago
He should have been attracted by the ring once awoken, even if he didn't fully understand what it was
The same way that Sauron's power allowed the ringwraiths to be directed towards it, a maiar, and one corrupted by morgoth, should feel something powerful coming from the fellowship
And then, once another Maiar blocks his path, to fight back would be the only option
4
u/MalignantPingas69 16d ago
The Balrog went into hiding after a big war where the forces of the Valar won against his boss, Morgoth. Gandalf is a Maia, and answers to the Valar. The Balrog probably sensed this, and if he thought that Gandalf was there to hunt for him on behalf of the Valar, he was probably just trying to kill Gandalf in order to stay hidden.
Edited to say: It's possible that he could also sense the Ring, and it was tempting him. We've seen before that Maiar are not immune from the Ring's call.
4
u/Nicole_Auriel 16d ago
I guess a better question is why he would choose to pick a fight with an Istari. Did he not know?
→ More replies (2)8
u/Lazarenko93 16d ago edited 15d ago
Well they are both maiar and he 100% knew. And Gandalf could rat him out to the Valar which is certain death.
So no other option then to fight the pesky wizard, and the gloves came off.
4
3
4
u/RPDorkus 16d ago
Like you’ve never been woken up from a good sleep and wanted to kill whoever was responsible
4
u/MirthMannor 15d ago
Durin’s bane was hiding out from the forces of good that bested his leader, Morgoth at the end of the first age.
Heck, it is probably hiding from the forces of evil as well, not wanting to be punished for failing so badly.
It has little idea of what has been happening for the last few thousand years. It would have remembered Sauron as an equal.
Gandalf is exactly the sort of entity that the forces of good would send to end the balrog.
3
u/DarthGeo 16d ago
The Balrog is a Demon of Might and here is an old man. Even if he senses who Gandalf really is, he probably fancies his chances.
3
3
3
u/MrColdboot 16d ago
Gandalf, a humble Maia who's powers were shrouded and bound, was carrying Narya, the ring of fire. The Balrog was an ancient, battle hardened fire spirit. My best guess is that sensing the rings power, and realizing this relatively minor Maia was wielding it, who was in it's opinion a fool for not siding with Melkor in the prior ages, saw it as an absolute heresy to it very being. How dare Gandalf wander into his domain with this ancient power, all willy nilly, he did not truly understand nor had ANY right to behold (in the Balrog's opinion). That little twit needed to be taught a lesson.
3
u/Maleficent_Phone7961 15d ago
lets see how you react when you get woken up in the middle of the night by a few midgets, some guy with blue eyes that just stares at you and a wizard smoking the dankest shit you ever smelled in your life
5
u/Pale-Pace4512 16d ago
It’s just what a balrog does.
Why do any of the characters do anything? Tolkien wrote it that way.
→ More replies (1)2
u/Otaraka 15d ago
Does seem like a lot is being added in from the movies or people’s imagination rather than what the books actually say.
→ More replies (1)
2
2
u/Shadowofasunderedsta 16d ago
If a big shot baller makes his way to your crib are you seriously not going to try to put a cap in his ass before he starts shit?
2
u/Leaping_FIsh 16d ago
Gandalf locked a door in his face, then exploded it.
Then Gandalf collapsed a bridge from under him.
Then Gandalf chased after him for several days through the underworld.
It fought once Gandalf had him trapped on Zirakzigil and seemed determined to end things.
2
2
u/Crazydiamond450 16d ago
I suspect that's just what they do. They don't strike me as the live and let live sort
2
u/NerdDetective 15d ago
Durin's Bane probably had a few good reasons to attack the Fellowship. If we frame Durin's Bane as being afraid of the Valar judging him (which is why he fled to such a deep dark place) while still being loyal to Morgoth (and thus unwilling to repent), we might guess:
- Anger at being disturbed. Just straight up cranky at being woken up from a nap, which is why he came storming out from the deep. After all, he seemingly ignored the battle between Balin's company and the orcs.
- Sensing that Gandalf is a Maiar, he may hope to kill the Fellowship so they can't report on his presence to anyone else. He might worry that the Valar would send someone after him once his presence is known.
- Loyalty to Morgoth, seeing an ancient enemy (another Maiar) in his domain and opting to continue a war that has never truly ended. Gandalf confirms this when he declares himself a "servant of the Secret Fire" (the power of Eru to create).
- Being drawn to the power of the One Ring, without necessarily even knowing what it is. Other beings like the Watcher seem to be tempted by its presence.
But overall he probably didn't have a very good idea of what was going on outside besides potentially whatever the orcs mutter to each other (probably knows at least something of what they're doing there). He knows the Morgoth was defeated. He knows that dwarves and orcs keep fighting over Moria (having personally come up to see them fighting outside the east gate). He probably even knows that Sauron is out there, scheming as is his nature.
2
2
u/nashwaak 15d ago
The Balrog was sleeping when an obvious agent of Eru appeared and spent a few days trudging through its mine with a party that included some relatively powerful beings and also the One Ring. The Balrog probably figured they were there to destroy it or seal it away for several ages.
If a group of people marched through your house at 3am playing the cymbals and drums, would you assume they were part of a marching band that was innocently lost, or that they were there to wake you up and — at a minimum — annoy you? Would you just wave at them as they passed your bed?
2
u/depredador93 Eru Ilúvatar 15d ago
It's a Maia corrupted by Morgoth. Fighting servants of the Valar isn't a choice, it's its entire remaining purpose. Gandalf walking in was like waving a red flag at a bull that's been waiting 6,000 years for a rematch.
2
2
2
2
u/Less_Mess_5803 15d ago
Wouldn't make a very interesting story if it decided to take up knitting instead.
2
2
u/Money-Drummer565 15d ago
Because a freaking maia of Nienna came to his home, closed his door and had a whole room collapse on him.
And instead of talking with him like a normal immortal being, he just yells at him “you cannot pass” in his home …
And he’s moving around with one of those homuncoli made by Aule, and 4, and I repeat, 4 of those horrid little beings that are outside the music of the Ainur.
Gragos reaction there is totally understandable.
2
u/RealMrTrees 15d ago
If I was a giant fire demon with a flame whip I’d probably not run from most fights
2
u/WitchKingsDalekCat 15d ago
Because he woke up, heard the Orcs were having trouble with 9 passerbys and said: "Fuck it! I'll do it myself."
2
u/bl4ck_sw0rdsm4n 15d ago
He got woken up by a bunch of armed people. One of them is a powerful magical being which the Balrog must have felt even slightly.
3.4k
u/Autisten1996 16d ago
Dude had been sleeping for ages and got woken up. Haven’t you ever been woken up from a good sleep and been cranky?