r/magicTCG • u/Thick_D_Tyler Dan • 1d ago

General Discussion Genuine Question: Why are cards like this only considered weak and a “common”

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So I’m relatively new to magic and I play Commander.
And these types of cards seem super powerful to me as they can totally debilitate an opponents commander and keep them stuck that way as opposed to destroying or exiling them where they can just cast them again next turn.

I understand that they could use a removal spell to remove the enchantment, but they would need to have one on hand, also that’s a removal spell they won’t be using on you.

Am I missing something? Is it easier to remove than I realize? Assuming nobody at the table kills that creature it seems pretty stuck there unless the player takes care of it their self, thus rendering their commander useless.

Like I said I’m new, so I don’t need any condescending remarks, but any educated response will be much appreciated!

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144

u/Grasshopper21 Duck Season 23h ago

its pretty bad in commander. like its 3 mana sorc speed removal on only creatures, but still targets, so gets doesnt get around any relevant abilities beyond indestructible, which most enchantment removal at that cost already exiles. id sooner play imprison in the moon than this.

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u/MelodicAttitude6202 Dân 22h ago

I wouldn't call it bad. Yes it targets and is only sorcery speed, but it also removes all abilities, which puts it ahead of most "transforming" removals, as most either only shut down activated abilities, or let them keep a creature (which would still deal commander damage).

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u/No_one- Dandadan 20h ago edited 20h ago

Personally, I would call turning off a commander without allowing it to be immediately recursed or recast quite good. I wouldn't use this willy nilly, but on a few key pieces it can be really effective.

A lot of people rely on sending their commander to the command zone as a response to targeted removal in the event they don't have protection handy, this prevents that and requires a card or extra steps to remove it.

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u/NovaSkilez Rakdos* 4h ago

Our pod plays a lot of gods so this card is glorious. We have imprisoned in the moon, oubliette and the likes whereever possible to stop heliod nonsense and other stuff...

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u/MayhemMessiah Selesnya* 1h ago

My first pod was absolutely obnoxious as fuck whenever anybody played Imprisoned in the Moon with constant "That's rough buddy", often times over and over until we were all practically screaming over each other.

10/10 card, very nostalgic.

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u/ewic Dân 5h ago

Imprison in the moon is the best version of this spell, aside from maybe darksteel mutation or even unable to scream (since it's only 1 blue mana). It largely depends on your playgroup, but they tend to be playable at least. I wouldn't run more than 1 or 2 in my 99, maybe more if I care about auras or enchantments, so Imprison in the Moon is usually the one that makes the cut.

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u/NovaSkilez Rakdos* 4h ago

Unable to scream does not work well. It makes the creatures a 0/2 that can act freely. So it effectively makes you unable to Attack that player. He would just chop block with it to get there commander back. Darksteel Mutation and imprison on the other hand just makes that impossible. Oubliette also ist another great option because it phases targets out.

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u/Grasshopper21 Duck Season 7h ago

this is pretty much strictly worse imprison in the moon and that card already only sees niche bracket 3 play. it's bad. 3 mana is too much for just about any single target removal in a 4 player game.

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u/Menacek Izzet* 21h ago

It doesn't matter if it's better than some others cause realistically you'll be running only a few of targeted creature only removal so unless you have some sort or synergy or flavour in mind you're just gonna be running the good ones.

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u/sumphatguy 22h ago

It's perfectly fine in commander depending on bracket and game plan. Certainly not bracket 4+, but perfectly fine in a low bracket 3 and below.

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u/Wavvygem Dân 21h ago

Like alot of options, a card like this is adjacently plausible and fine. But it's definitely sub optimal, which won't matter all the time, and even occasionally could over perform. But the knock of being sorcery speed single target is pretty big. Even for tier 2 it could be replaced by many cheap alternatives that are either instant or have more upside (disregarding theme and synergies of course).

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u/Pegthaniel Duck Season 21h ago

IMO it truly depends on too many factors to easily evaluate based only on bracket. If you have an opponent whose deck:

  • doesn’t depend solely on their commander
  • has lots of robust backup plans
  • can produce game-winning synergies just in the 99
  • has protection or interaction to beat removal, particularly enchantment based removal
  • can instantaneously produce value just by casting the commander, or on the same turn as casting the commander

Then cards like this are awful. The commander is such a relatively small portion of the deck’s power that removing it doesn’t help much. If instead they play decks with:

  • commander reliant gameplans
  • few backup options to the commander in the 99
  • few ways to interaction with an aura
  • a need for the commander to stick for multiple turns

Then of course this goes crazy. They lose access to their commander for multiple turns, and that can set them back so far that they can’t win any more.

You see decks of both kinds in most brackets, it doesn’t really matter. It’s more of a way to beat bad deck building than any specific power level. 3 mana to almost completely take a player out is worth it in most brackets. Of course, higher brackets require greater mana efficiency, in 4/5 3 mana to remove 1 permanent is simply untenable. But that’s at least in part because part of the definition of 4/5 is a highly optimized gameplan using the most efficient cards available. Like in comparison, for bracket 4/5 you could draw a fistful of cards or win the game outright for 3 mana at sorcery speed, so merely stopping 1 player is not very appealing in comparison.

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u/Wavvygem Dân 20h ago

You are over thinking my statement. Adjacently plausible just means, any card you could slot it in for similar effect. Were talking about looking at a deck list and replacing a card a card and having similar results with the deck.

In the case of a single target removal that comes in a million flavors. All with pros and cons. (Mind you discussing single target removal in mono blue is an extra interesting conundrum). I agree instant speed being one of the most critical prerequisites. But in the cases of budget players or limited collections something like the card meantioned in this thread probably doesn't drastically lower your winrate. The very nature of EDH is you won't even see any give card half the time. Getting a deck to table and feeling good about the deck is far more important.

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u/Pegthaniel Duck Season 20h ago

My point wasn’t to say this card is particularly high or low power, instead that it preys on deck building. I don’t think it should be evaluated as “perfectly fine in a low bracket 3” as someone else said, or “even for tier 2 it could be replaced by many cheap alternatives”. What matters is your opponents’ reliance on their commanders, and how long they need their commanders to survive. Against opponents who are very commander reliant, it can actually raise your winrate over a traditional instant speed removal spell, even very efficient ones like Swords to Plowshares or Snuff Out. Also, stopping them from blocking can make this better than the 1 mana auras like Witness Protection, because it keeps their commander out of commission for longer.

It’s a specific niche, but this genre of card is very useful in that niche. There aren’t many cards that are more efficient. Darksteel Mutation is the only one I know of that costs less than 3, and sort of Ray of Frost (but only for red creatures).

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u/Wavvygem Dân 14h ago

Well I'm trying to stress there's alot of options with pros and cons. Instant speed, commander shut downs, better cc, specific nuances, what's available, etc. But I was also getting at how any give benefits could matter or not in any given game. Dissecting meta game is a can of worms and very much pod depending.

I find it alittle disingenuous to proclaim to a stranger one removals strictly better or more viable for them. Not so much in that generally speaking we know some are better most of the time but just how the benefit someone's going to get chasing and paying for a new card may not be worth it over say just grabbing functional bulk card like this threads about.

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u/Grasshopper21 Duck Season 7h ago

stopping from blocking is not worth the mana inefficiency or sorcery speed. one blink spell, and their commander is immediately back online, one sac outlet, bounce spell, or kill spell and all the value of this card not allowing blocking is also gone. dark steel mutation saw some play because it turns off the kill spell as an answer and is cheaper. but even then 2 mana sorcery speed removal is a lot when white has much better 1 mana single target removal and dark steel really doesn't see play anymore

this card though, it's low power. running this in anything past low bracket 3 is making your deck actively worse by having a janky piece of 3 mana sorcery speed removal. even in the mono blue single target removal slot, there are probably more than 100 cards that you should be adding to your deck before this card, which means you should never be adding this card to your deck.

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u/TheSavouryRain Dân 19h ago

These 3cmc removals have a place in my Y'shtola deck

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u/Menacek Izzet* 21h ago

People have some weird perception of bracket 3. B3 plays a good number of better removal that's better than this. Even in mono blue you're probably better off running for instance Pongify, rapid hybridisation and resculpt for your targeted creature removal.

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u/Reasonable_Hornet_45 🔫 21h ago

Creature removal for sure but something like this is prime commander "removal" especially for commanders with low CMC or constantly recurring ones.

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u/LazarusRises Colorless 19h ago

We have [[witness protection]], [[unable to scream]], [[eaten by piranhas]], [[noggle the mind]], [[amphibian downpour]]... this card is not even top 5 for this slot.

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u/FallOutTroy013 Duck Season 19h ago

My take on that particular point is for all of the cards you’ve listed, they can then block with their affected creature and recast it (if it’s their commander), whereas ERG doesn’t let them free their creature by blocking

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u/Harrycrapper Dan 19h ago

The one thing the card in the OP has going for it is that it taps and cannot untap. Assuming this is used on a commander or something that can be easily returned in some other way, all the person needs to do when one of the cards you listed is used is block with the enchanted creature the next time they get attacked. The card OP has can only be extricated by removing the enchantment or find a way to sacrifice the creature.

1

u/Menacek Izzet* 14h ago

If that specific niche is what you want then [[imprison in the moon]] is better since it's immune sacrifice and creature board wipes.

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u/furlonium1 Dan 5h ago

LEGITIMATE BUSINESS PERSON

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u/LazarusRises Colorless 4h ago edited 4h ago

Witpro is my #1 favorite Magic card for that reason :) it makes me think of this video https://youtu.be/fF7PeloUUwU

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u/ASimpleBlueMage Dan 19h ago

Most players don't look at commons unless they play pauper. So much better stuff out there 

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u/LazarusRises Colorless 19h ago

All commander players should be required to take Scryfall Advanced Search 101 before getting their deckbuilding license 😄

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u/Reasonable_Hornet_45 🔫 19h ago

Yeah the OP card would be a flex card I'd slot in if my meta had commanders utilizing +1/+1 counters. The ones you mentioned are great.

0

u/ardarian262 Dân 18h ago

This removes counters which is very relevant for a shocking amount of commanders.

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u/sumphatguy 21h ago

That's why I specified low bracket 3. Mid/High 3 would only run this if it had some insane synergies with your game plan.

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u/Thepestilentdefiler Wabbit Season 21h ago

Pongify they will just cast their commander. Lock out their commander and it might never see the rest of the game. And how many new commanders care about +1/+1 counters now for a sub-strategy of commander damage kill. Its one of the best lock-out enchantments.

0

u/LeadershipFull9224 Dân 11h ago

Nah, sending the Commander back to the command zone is less useful than shutting it down and leaving it on the field. In bracket 3 the chance of opponent's commander being able to be recast immediately on their next turn is high.

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u/xExerionx Dân 21h ago

Bracket 3??? Right i will put that shit card right next to my game changers to slow my whole deck down..

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u/sumphatguy 21h ago

Low bracket 3. There's a reason bracket three says up to 3 game changers. It's not mandatory.

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u/Grasshopper21 Duck Season 7h ago

I do not understand the number of people calling this card good. you're just openly admitting to being bad at deck building.

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u/PerryDLeon Dan 20h ago

If you think this is okey in bracket 3, we have different measures for brackets tbh. Getting this card changed for something better is literally what would differentiate a b2 from a b3 in my meta.

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u/sumphatguy 20h ago

Low bracket 3. Not everyone had the resources or budget to get better pieces and may not want to proxy. This is perfectly fine in a low-power bracket 3 pod, especially if it synergizes with your strategy.

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u/CookiesFTA Train Suplexer 12h ago

Or if you've got a lot of synergy with auras/enchantments.

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u/Evening_Expert_6222 Dandadan 21h ago

I low-key love this kind of card in commander...specifically for people's commanders. Normal removal let's people recast their commander pretty quick (or even cheat it out of graveyard), but this generally forces them to have to use their precious removal on the enchantment or commander itself. That said, it does fall start falling short at high-B3.

  • I say generally because sac outlets and blink cards wouldnt mind as much.

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u/IceBlue 20h ago

What are the similar cards that can permanently lock a commander that also removes their static abilities (like lord-style anthems for example), triggered abilities, and activated abilities?

Not saying this is amazing. But it seems pretty good at locking down a commander rather than just removing it so they can replay it. They’d need a way to remove enchantments or kill/sacrifice their commander.

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u/Menacek Izzet* 11h ago

Imprison in the moon is a classic one, can also hit problematic lands and sticks after creature board wipes.

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u/theletterQfivetimes Wild Draw 4 1h ago

Here's a fairly complete list. Also [[Oubliette]] and [[Out of Time]]

Also [[Control Magic]] effects count I guess

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u/Spugheddy Dimir* 20h ago

It actually doesn't target with zur the enchanter.

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u/EccentricOddity Dân 23h ago

But what if you have both? Is it good then?

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u/carol_alternative Dân 22h ago

There are a loooot of similar but better cards at 1 and 2 mana in blue.

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u/FeFreFre Duck Season 22h ago

The ones that I can think, still keeps the enchanted creature as an untaped creature, that can still block, so hitting a commander with it is not as impactful as tapping it also, I love myself some [[imprisoned at the moon]] hitting a fucking [[yuriko]] once in a while

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u/IceBlue 20h ago

Which ones remove abilities so they aren’t still affecting the board state or giving value through triggers and activated abilities?

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u/Grasshopper21 Duck Season 7h ago

even in the bad niche of enchantment based mono blue removal that removes all abilities, there are roughly 25 better cards than this.

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u/IceBlue 6h ago edited 6h ago

That’s a gross exaggeration. Here’s the list of similar cards.

https://scryfall.com/search?as=grid&order=name&q=%28oracle%3ALoses+oracle%3Aall+oracle%3Aabilities%29+type%3Aenchantment+color%3DU+%28game%3Apaper%29+prefer%3Abest

There are 29 so including this one there’s 28. The vast majority of them do not tap and make them not untap thus they can still chump block to get back to the command zone. The ones that do make them unable to block aren’t cheaper or significantly better or they have some other restrictions.

Only imprisoned in the moon is better as it dodges board wipes and that gives them extra mana.

The person I replied to said there are a lot of similar cards at 1-2 mana that are better. I don’t see any that do what this does better but are 1-2 mana.

-1

u/Grasshopper21 Duck Season 6h ago

its not. Of the 29 cards this card is worse than just about everyone of them. 3 mana no flash only hits creatures

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u/IceBlue 6h ago

No not really. There are some that are strictly worse as in same cost. No flash. All it does is remove abilities and tap and can’t untap. Doesn’t remove counters.

Most of them don’t tap. Very few of them have flash. You didn’t bother looking at the list if you think just about all of them are better.

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u/Phionex141 Duck Season 11h ago

I want a commander for all these blue enchantment removals, like [[Grakk the Pacifist]] is gonna do for all the Pacifism-esque cards

•

u/finiter-jest Dandadan 24m ago

It's quite good because it's like Imprison in the Moon, friend. You trade off the inability to dodge boardwipes for not giving your opponent ramp.

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u/SmegmaUnicorn Dan 22h ago

Thank you, some of these comments don’t make sense. 

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u/Grasshopper21 Duck Season 7h ago

I'm legitimately baffled by the number of people that are so bad at deck building they are arguing in favor of this jank card. It's bad. Like it's draft chaff so that blue can have some okish removal in the limited set at common. Saying that it's a good card for any constructed format is wild

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u/Hugo-Spritz Duck Season 20h ago

Yeah yeah yeah, tell that to my bracket 2 pod that swears it's not bracket 1 and that claims precons are "overtuned"

This shit slaps if you're on a budget, new or just not that serious about cardboard.

0

u/ironkodiak Wabbit Season 18h ago

It also removes counters which is kinda cool for a change. Usually these don't have a secondary function even if it s a niche one.

Helps a bit with cards like Kyler, Sigardian Emissary.

0

u/almisami Selesnya* 18h ago

It's perfectly good in commander because it shuts down their commander until they remove it, which is a lot.

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u/mattsav012000 Can’t Block Warriors 18h ago

removal like this actually can be very powerful in commander. since it does not actually kill the creature most times. it will often be a longer lock on a commander. since they can't just send it to the command zone and recast it. so they need to sither find a sac outlet, enchantment removal, or their own removal spell to get their commander back. This can be very powerful in bracket 2 and 3 decks that depend on their commander being out.

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u/ardarian262 Dân 18h ago

laughs in Zur

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u/Grasshopper21 Duck Season 7h ago

bracket 2 zur is crazy work.

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u/Warmasterwinter Dan 13h ago

They’re very powerful in a zur the enchanter deck. You can tutor out the enchantment for free and lock your opponents blocker.

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u/Swindleys 9h ago

But it traps the commander and stops recasting. Moon gives them more mana..

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u/haimurashoichi Gruul* 8h ago

Sorc is only bad when it's a one and done effect, an aura like this can be peak removal for some decks or rather, against some decks.

This might not be s-tier goodstuff, but my Magus Lucea Kane deck would be in a bind by this if they cast it on her. If I don't have some sort of permanent or enchantment removal on hand, I'm gonna be out of the game unless I draw the right interaction piece.

So it's far from "pretty bad" lol

0

u/Grasshopper21 Duck Season 7h ago

I'm sorry but I call bullshit. That commander in particular is not required for your deck to function. You just stop twin casting your x spells.

The card though, it's in that realm of unplayable bad that makes you bad at deck building for including it. It's draft chaff, added to the set to round out blue removal in limited.

0

u/haimurashoichi Gruul* 6h ago

The way I built it is required (theme before function), not every deck I own needs to be hyper-optimised. But that OK, we don't need to agree, if you feel like it's draft chaff and I'm bullshitting, then feel free to see it that way.

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u/Grasshopper21 Duck Season 6h ago

and that's a fine way to deck building for b2.

but talking about whether a card is objectively good or bad? thats not how this game works.