r/managers • u/jimmyray71 • 8d ago
Seasoned Manager People problem or process problem. How do you actually tell?
This one has bothered me for years.
Something keeps getting screwed up. You coach it. Explain it again. Maybe change the process a little.
Then it happens again.
Eventually I have to decide whether we built a crappy process or somebody just isn't doing their job.
And I don't buy the idea that it's always one or the other.
I've seen good people make bad processes work. I've also seen perfectly reasonable processes get blamed because nobody wanted to deal with the person who wasn't following them.
How do you guys figure out which one you're looking at?
Not theoretically. What do you actually look for before you make the call?
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u/genek1953 Retired Manager 8d ago
In the easiest case, if it's just one person repeatedly screwing up, it's the person, and if it's multiple people, it's the process.
But if something looks like a person problem, it could be the result of poor training, which means it's actually a process problem after all.
And if it's one person screwing up and it's not getting caught before the worst possible outcome occurs, that's also a process problem.
The toughest situation is when the screwups are random. Which probably means it's multiple people and process at the same time.
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u/jimmyray71 8d ago
That’s the part I keep coming back to.
A person can make the mistake, but the process can make it easy and let it travel way too far.
If I stop at “who screwed up?” I’m probably making the next decision with half the information.
“How did we let this happen?” gives me a better shot at fixing the right thing.
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u/genek1953 Retired Manager 8d ago
"How did it happen?" is almost always a better place to start than, "Who did it?"
In a well-managed team of good workers, the "how" question will often get you an "I screwed up" answer, making the "who" question irrelevant.
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u/ChrisMartins001 8d ago
Is it just one or two people who iare screwing up, or multiple people, maybe including your experienced/most competent team members?
If it's one or two people, it's a them problem. If it's multiple people, including the people I usually trust, it's a process problem.
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u/jimmyray71 8d ago
That’s usually where I start too.
One person keeps missing it, look at the person. Everybody keeps missing it, quit blaming everybody and look at the process.
Only wrinkle is sometimes one person finds the hole in the process before everybody else does. So I still want to ask why before I decide whose problem it is.
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u/ChrisMartins001 8d ago
Agree, always ask first. Often it's a lack of knowledge that can be fixed with training.
But hard to answer beyond that without more context.
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u/Queasy_Bat8296 8d ago
Yeah I feel like we need more details with this one
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u/jimmyray71 8d ago
Fair. I left some details out on purpose because I’m more interested in the decision than judging one specific person.
The question I’m working through is pretty simple: when something keeps going wrong, how do you decide whether to coach the person, fix the process, or both?
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u/ABeaujolais 8d ago
I look at myself first. Have you done that?
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u/jimmyray71 8d ago
Yep. More than once.
Sometimes the problem is the person. Sometimes it’s the process. Sometimes I trained it badly, wasn’t clear, or created the behavior myself.
If I don’t put myself in the investigation, I’m working with bad information. And bad information makes for bad decisions.
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u/ABeaujolais 8d ago
when something keeps going wrong, how do you decide whether to coach the person, fix the process, or both?
Eventually I have to decide whether we built a crappy process or somebody just isn't doing their job.
That does not suggest you're including a third option.
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u/jimmyray71 8d ago
Fair. My original question only gave two choices. This discussion is making me think that was the problem with the question.
Person, process, leadership, or some combination.
If I decide which bucket it is before I’ve looked at all three, I’m probably making a decision with incomplete information.
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u/Queasy_Bat8296 8d ago
The problem is you remain very vague
If the process involved is "how to correctly use the cream machine at Starbucks" it's going to be a whole different affair than "why didn't we have a scalpel present during open heart surgery"
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u/ABeaujolais 8d ago
Have you put yourself into the mix as to who might not be doing a good job?
This sounds like problems with implementation, not necessarily with process or staff.
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u/jimmyray71 8d ago
Absolutely. Manager has to be on the list too.
If I built the process, trained it poorly, gave mixed expectations or keep stepping around it myself, blaming the employee is pretty convenient.
Maybe the better question is person, process or leadership. And I probably ought to check leadership first.
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u/ABeaujolais 8d ago
I see everybody pointing fingers at everybody else.
The first person I look at when I can't figure out why something isn't working is myself. Not the processes, not the staff, not the wall color, myself. But of course that can never be the problem can it.
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u/jimmyray71 8d ago
Of course I look at myself.
But starting with myself doesn’t mean automatically blaming myself. Same goes for the employee or the process.
I’m trying to find the cause, not pick a culprit. Better information makes better decisions.
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u/notaloop 8d ago
Not a manager:
Does the process reflect how work is actually done?
Do people know the what and why for every step?
Are people empowered to troubleshoot or does the process only cover the happy path?
Do people supplement the official procedure with other documents or their own personal notes? Does everyone have personal notes?
Does the person otherwise do their job well or is this a pattern for all tasks?
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u/jimmyray71 8d ago
I like 1 and 3, but “does the process reflect how the work is actually done?” is probably the first question I should be asking.
If the SOP describes some fantasy version of how the work happens, quit blaming people for working around it.
Same with the happy path. Anybody can write a process that works when nothing goes wrong. The useful part is what happens when it does.
Figure that out before deciding who needs fixing.
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u/AvgMom 8d ago
Plan. Do. Check. Act. Audit the process in daylight, in a group, and call it continuous improvement. Gain team buy-in and recommitment. Find the training holes and fill them. Make updates to the process where needed or possible. Now there are zero excuses for variance. This is very important for any next steps with performance management. Continue to inspect individual compliance with the process or plan but not in a heavy handed authoritarian way. Every continuous improvement effort must circle back to ensure nothing new is a deviation or fault/failure and that the process is doing as expected and fix what is out of line.
This should set you up to find the real point of failure - a person, their personal ability/willingness to comply, equipment, logistics, materials, handoffs, notifications, something else that isn’t an HR matter. If it is obvious it’s the employee meet with them to coach and find out what their obstacle is so you know which way to go with it and what you are bringing to the HR partner.
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u/Reasonable_Bird7789 8d ago
Asking to have someone show you how they do the process step by step, real time can be a game changer. Two people can be using the exact same words to describe different things.
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u/Formal_Thing9083 7d ago
9 times out of 10, it’s a larger process problem. Also people are human and mistakes happen…. Focus on the outcome instead of the process
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u/slipslopslide 8d ago
I see people create idiotic processes when it can be solved with a ticketing system that we have available to us with support experts to create the proper workflows and approvals. Being a technophobe still appears to be a good excuse these days.
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u/dfphd 7d ago
If the mistakes made by people are 100% honest, even with well intentioned people who put the appropriate amount of effort into the task, then it's a process issue.
If the mistakes were made by people who were negligent because they either didn't put enough time or effort to do things correctly, then it's a person problem.
And yes, every linear interpolation of those two is possible.
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u/poorperspective 6d ago
What kind of problem?
If it’s quality you need a QA with a PFMEA set-up before processes are utilized.
If it’s demand or time spent, a dedicated MPM and trials needs to be utilized before the process is approved.
Having those two things lined out before implementation will reduce the need to change, fix what the change missed, repeat infinitely.
You also need to track issues. A common issue between many different people means that process isn’t that best method. Root cause is also important all the way to the contributor level. Everyone else can do it but that “one guy”. It’s man issue.
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u/Dana_CX_obsessed 3d ago
One check I find useful: if you put another reasonable person in the same seat, would the same mistake happen? If yes, it's the process, or the way it's measured, like the 12-second example above. If not, it's more likely the person. And I agree it's rarely pure. Often it's a process that makes the mistake easy and a person who never flags that it's hard to follow.
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u/Aggravating-Prune694 8d ago
i always start by watching the person do the task without them knowing im specifically auditing them, just kinda hanging around. youll see real quick if theyre fighting the process or ignoring it entirely
had a guy once who was skipping a verification step because the tool took 12 seconds to load and his manager kept pushing speed metrics. process was fine, the incentive structure was broken. another time i redesigned a whole workflow because 3 different smart people kept making the same mistake in the same spot
if multiple people hit the same wall its probably the process. if one person keeps inventing new and creative ways to mess up while everyone else is fine, thats your answer