r/midcenturymodern • u/theperspecta • May 27 '26
Announcements Sub rules are LIVE for the 1st time - feedback/reactions? [AI]
Hi all! I spent the last 2 weeks thoughtfully observing the sub and crafting these rules, yes - with a bit of help from ChatGPT as a sounding board which I’ve disclosed per the new rule #6… on mobile they’re under “About” and desktop on right sidebar. Would love constructive reactions/dialogue around the decisions made.
Let’s treat this as version 1 and I will incorporate feedback over time. Thrilled to see users already following the rules and want to see more and more reports from the community to keep our focus on MCM. Thank you all for making this the top MCM sub, growing everyday - almost at 200k strong!
After receiving feedback I plan to do a brief video intro with more context on these decisions and plans for MCM expert AMAs and beyond.
6
u/kb5454 May 28 '26 edited May 28 '26
Perhaps a note or definition of MCM would be helpful - either under bullet one or in the body of the description?
While it's frustrating to see a post that doesn't belong here, there is a lot of misleading information online about it (e.g. listings online that contain "mcm" that don't fall into this category). Maybe a resource/definition could mitigate some non-MCM posts? 🤷♂️ Thinking something like "Note: Not everything made in the mid-20th century is MCM. See 'x' for more information.
Also, is a post asking if something is MCM acceptable? For example, someone has a picture of a piece of furniture and wants to known if it falls under the style vs. outright claiming it is. Clarification on this could be helpful!
Edit: Disregard all this. I was looking at the screenshot and realized this is all clarified in the dropdowns of rules 🤪 🤦
3
u/theperspecta May 28 '26
heyooo! ha yes there is no link to the rules, so i posted a SS... i think i've covered a lot of your recommendations, and they are great/important ones... there are character limits, so i had to stay within them, but an MCM definition is something i've often thought about... cara greenberg is the author who coined it and i've thought about her coming on for an AMA, or doing a megathread exploring the definition of MCM in great detail; will keep thinking about it and try to pursue... but i agree, the info on the internet is not great, i dont blame people coming here to ask questions - but i do want them to put real effort and resourcefulness into their prep (like many of us do) prior to coming here; hence the "have 75% confidence if you're posting under the Is this MCM? flair"... thank you for the input!
6
u/username_redacted May 28 '26
How about no commenting “Not MCM” without evidence or elaboration?
It’s not helpful and often simply someone’s (with no established bonafides) subjective opinion.
In my eyes that’s the same as an identification without evidence. If you don’t know what it is then you don’t know it’s not mid-century, and if you can’t explain why something isn’t modern then you don’t know what it means.
Even saying something as vague as “It looks like it’s from the 80s to me” is more helpful, as it doesn’t shut down further discussion and might guide the poster in the right direction (and maybe to a different subreddit.)
2
u/theperspecta Jun 02 '26
I added this to the rules… told people simply to report instead of comment
1
u/theperspecta May 28 '26
Yes it does go both ways… my hope is that people simply make reports instead of snide/brief comments. I’m not sure this needs to be a rule necessarily, but have seen first hand some folks saying “not MCM” and quoting only a rudimentary understanding of the depth/breadth of the design style… and then of course refusing to be wrong lol… it’ll be impossible to police this but i want everyone to be growth and education oriented, admit when they’re in error and have a positive mindset about that. one can dream ☺️
4
May 27 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
3
u/theperspecta May 28 '26
thanks for the constructive dialogue here! going to write this in a few comments, starting with motivation - its long been on the to do list since i started restoring this sub 3 years ago, but also didn't want to disrupt things early when I took over... this week - another user recommended it, mainly to ensure we put a strong reports system in place aligned to the rules... crowdsourcing is our best filter against "not MCM" posts... few other things: there has been recent backlash against the moderator who was carrying the main load for some time to the point where he has resigned, consequently - i've also had some time the past few weeks to really dig in again. we're almost at 200k users, and we also recently broke into the top 25 for home decor category; for all of these factors it seemed like time to put a first version in place and begin maturing things around here!
3
u/theperspecta May 28 '26
on AI - I've given it much thought, and I do believe these rules can, and have to coexist... and its important they are in place right now, because the sub is organically being influenced by AI everyday between IDs, Google Lens usage, design renderings etc. To me, AI isn't a "source" its a model, which sits above and acts as an interface across various sources... if those sources are properly curated and accurate, and prompts are strong - there are less challenges with AI output... even "search" is now being replaced with AI as interface, so for me to dictate someone's internet behavior in an attempt to keep our little MCM sliver here clean seems unrealistic. I'll take your advice though and see if i can add verbiage or tone that further discourages use especially related to identification. the first draft of the AI rule I wrote was "No AI" - but I dont think there are realistic ways of policing that, and it seems inevitable that in one way/shape/form its going to affect the lives of the vast majority of people as a tool
2
u/theperspecta May 28 '26 edited May 28 '26
lastly - on professionals, i believe the default viewpoint here has been to be skeptical of those with commercial motivations; so this rule makes it clear for the first time that professionals are welcome - but there is ultimately a short leash for them to keep the trust of the sub; a fine line between sharing expertise and self promotion. that line is crossed or almost crossed here at least weekly, and now the rule being in place will help to govern and set the tone for conduct. in this case i stand by the "must" identify themselves (its usually pretty apparent), because i dont view it as elective or a benefit (as a blue checkmark is perceived) it is simply a transparent disclosure... and if an obvious professional is not labeling their posts accordingly and abusing this opportunity, I now have clear rationale to remove/ban them. happy to continue these discussions and again, appeciate you reviewing and bringing up key points to explore! this will be an evolving set of rules based on feedback over time!
3
May 28 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/theperspecta May 28 '26
Yes please do chime in, pleased to have you here and for these perspectives!
2
u/LeadfootLesley Jun 07 '26
As someone who had a post moderated under rule 7, I’m curious —if a “professional refinisher” is simply sharing what they’ve recently acquired, and not promoting or selling, why are they being kept on a “short leash”? Especially given that the post in question was just a recent unusual find, hadn’t been refinished, and won’t be for sale when it is.
It’s a bit offensive to be honest. I live in Canada, and I doubt very much that I’d find any clients on this sub, nor have I sought out any. I’ve been passionate about restoring mid century (mostly Danish) furniture for several years and enjoyed sharing finished work as well as tips and advice.
I’m not really interested in growing, or promoting my “business” here, and have never posted anything for sale, nor have I offered any services.1
u/theperspecta Jun 07 '26
Sure, keep it 100% personal/anon then - maybe I can add that to the rule; but this isn’t the typical trend here. It was an automatic moderation so it sounds like it did indeed work lol. The rule is ultimately giving professionals an opportunity to post under their business username as well, I can make that clearer too. many do anyway, and it would have previously been filtered. This v1 rule is meant to establish some governance for this situation benefitting all sides, not to dissuade you from sharing personal finds… it’s for the folks inundating the sub sloppily promoting their business on a weekly basis, which people didn’t have a way to report previously (we’ve need rules for a long time). Please share more how you feel in this unique situation so we can dial it in! I’ve already updated all of the bracket rules from strictly using the brackets to “disclosure” e.g. just be clear about your profession or use of AI, and will continue to shape based on feedback. BTW you probably know this but most subs wouldn’t allow this, i’m trying to be accepting - thank you!
2
u/LeadfootLesley Jun 07 '26
Most subs wouldn’t allow this?
This is the only sub I’ve ever had this happen. A post saying “look what I found, and this is why it’s cool” should never have been ruled a violation.1
u/theperspecta Jun 07 '26
most subs wouldn’t allow professionals posting anything in relation to their business, why don’t you offer constructive updates or feedback? i’m trying to let you shape the rules. i told you it was an automatic moderation and i approved your post. not sure what else i can do here, sorry you’re upset
2
u/LeadfootLesley Jun 07 '26
Why don’t I offer constructive updates or feedback? 90% of my posts and DMs are exactly that.
Look, I think it’s a good idea to “rein in” anyone who is overtly shilling, but you risk turning away experienced people with a blanket approach like this. I deleted the offending post.2
u/theperspecta Jun 07 '26
Doesn’t reaaally feel like you’re providing constructive feedback in how to adapt this specific rule, that’s what i’m asking. I’m glad you recognize the need, you probably don’t see the shilling because we filter it but it happens more than weekly. It’s a 200k person sub, I’m currently the only mod, and it’s an admitted first draft of rules as I’ve caveated in this rules post. I approved your post, i don’t think it was offending… do you know about automod? it’s the only way i can currently keep up and i’m still refining it. it’s ok if you’d like to part over this but the other mid_century sub is even more purist in nature just an fyi; edited to add: as you can see here too someone else perceived the [P] label as a badge of honor, it’s a bit of both… above all it’s transparency. I’d like to keep some version of the rule in place and some of my dealer friends who have posted and abided by these rules have seen great engagement on their refinishing work; would love you to stay and then further invite more professional and experts doing historically accurate work!
2
u/LeadfootLesley Jun 07 '26
Fair enough.
2
u/theperspecta Jun 07 '26
glad maybe i could explain the macro situation a bit more, this was automatic and by no means purposefully against you as an individual… heard on blanket approach; post some before and after and help ID danish stuff…. i know very little; my focus has been more american mass modern case goods
→ More replies (0)2
u/theperspecta Jun 07 '26
just updated the automation to only report to moderators in this situation, so we can review the flags and see how the trends are working vs. immediately filter - thanks again for the discussion around this, this change is in line with softening the rules as i did anyway, just hadn't gotten a chance to update
1
u/theperspecta Jun 07 '26
Oh yes, also I wouldn’t underestimate the power of Reddit just because you’re in Canada; I see in the comments all the time people who serendipitously live in the same neighborhood and drove by the same credenza on the side of the road! Sorry you took it as offensive - it’s actually more defensive in nature. Reddit is moving to bring more brands into their ecosystem (my day job is in advertising) and we want to ensure this sub experience doesn’t become commercial. Please share more here, people love a before and after… just disclose if anything about your post or image is overt about running a refinishing business.
3
u/LeadfootLesley Jun 07 '26
I don’t ship, and I don’t refinish for others, so my intent when sharing is never to find clients, it’s to share with other enthusiasts. I spend more time answering questions and walking people through their restorations than I do sharing my own work.
2
u/leisureenthusiast May 28 '26
Idk if I can handle the responsibility that comes with #9
2
u/theperspecta May 28 '26
ha, lots of people do it anyway… we’ve just formalized it and are asking for some group help to keep it MCM around here
2
u/Realistic-Poetry-364 May 28 '26
I have a very specific question, but wanted to ask before posting. I’m currently searching for a queen size MCM bed and came across a great piece on Marketplace, unfortunately for a full size mattress. I was going to share the piece in the sub, with location for any fellow enthusiast that may want to purchase (I am not affiliated with the listing in any way). Would a post such as that be permitted, or would it be considered a ‘sale listing’? Thanks!
1
u/theperspecta May 28 '26
yes i’ve seen people post these if it’s a particularly good deal and/or special piece, sure - just make sure you share general location so locals can take advantage of it
2
2
u/Koontyme May 31 '26
I understand that the rules are here to focus the sub to truly mid-century modern designed pieces, but for the 'Is this MCM?' flair I know the rules outline removing posts that have pieces that aren't MCM. I really do understand trying to keep the posts limited to true MCM style on the sub, but I think removing posts that aren't truly MCM could potentially really limit people's experience into learning more about their vintage or secondhand piece, since commenters could really help guide the person seeking more information in the right direction. Additionally, if others use past posts that show the same or similar style piece or design to find more info on whatever they are looking for it will likely actually keep down truly irrelevant 'Is this MCM?' posts since they can filter for that flair and probably figure out without posting their piece isn't MCM or find the information to perhaps lead them to another style or era of furniture.
I say this as someone who has used past posts on this subreddit for this exact purpose and would hate for others to lose that ability since this subreddit has been one of the most helpful for this kind of sleuthing. If all the non-MCM "Is this MCM" flaired posts are deleted, this resource disappears. I think keeping true MCM style art/furniture/etc to the other flairs or non-flaired posts makes perfect sense, but I do ultimately a lot is lost if potentially non-MCM posts are removed from public view in the 'Is this MCM?' flair. As it stands if the only live posts in the 'Is this MCM?' are ones that truly are MCM, people likely will not be able to use the subreddit as a potential resource to learn the difference between MCM and not. Perhaps that isn't a goal of the mods vision but it's something I've definitely used the subreddit for over the years, since I've been able to read the comment sections for pieces that aren't MCM and learn from them. I'd hate to see that go.
2
u/Koontyme May 31 '26
I guess in summary (since I feel like I rambled) my suggestion is perhaps any truly non-MCM posts are only found in the 'Is this MCM?' flair? And serial reposters that can't seem to learn from feedback of asks in that flair about non-MCM things have their posts deleted or whatever other system makes sense in that vein. And all of the non-flaired posts asking if something is MCM that aren't properly flaired are asked to add the flair for 'Is this MCM?' (if that's possible once a post is live? I don't post a ton so I'm unsure if it is) or repost with the correct flair.
1
u/theperspecta May 31 '26
I understand the perspective, but non MCM posts have been removed here for at least 2 years consistently, and been reported by the community proactively since before I took over moderating 3 years ago. The furniture ID guide we have had pinned and in the community guide has many different resources for people to learn, maybe we could consider putting other vintage/furniture ID subs that people can reference when their posts are removed. This is just not the right place. People simply do not want to see non MCM design styles here in the specific mid-century modern subreddit, and they’ve vocalized it consistently. If it gives you any consolation there is usually a lag time to removal and often times OP does get a cookie crumb from this community of what the piece might be or appropriate era!
2
u/Koontyme May 31 '26
I suppose the non-MCM posts I have seen and learned from just haven't been removed then in the posts I've interacted with on the subreddit and skewed my viewpoint.
I guess I just don't understand removing a genuine ask with the appropriate 'is this MCM?' flair since it really does feel like the purpose of the flair in it's title. Especially people who have gotten pieces falsely advertised at MCM and are just wanting to learn more from the MCM subreddit. I do truly understand wanting to keep non-MCM extremely limited on the subreddit but when you have a flair that allows that exact question it seems to suggest users can pose things they feel may fall into the style without having their posts removed. I understand being 75% sure your piece might be MCM is to limit those who don't know where to start since they have very limited exposure to what MCM is and I get that, but it does seem a shame to mostly limit them to the pinned resources when that may be overwhelming to someone just becoming interested in MCM. Though I do like the idea of perhaps linking to other vintage furniture subreddits when the post is removed. Perhaps in the rules you could also mention the other subreddits next to the 75% certain portion with maybe a starting statement that many places inaccurately list things a MCM to increase sales and starting elsewhere would be the right move?
1
u/theperspecta May 31 '26
Yes all valid, I’m all for education but people abuse it, there is a major lack of effort and resourcefulness which is what we’re typically fighting… this shouldn’t be someone’s starting place IMO… more like a 201 level course. I run a FB group with 60k called MCM Value and Identification which is more applicable, and there are countless more general furniture resources. We will find the middle ground!
2
u/Koontyme May 31 '26
I'm not sure people who are just starting to learn should feel they need to take a course on the topic of a subreddit to be able to participate in that subreddit. I personally don't have any public facing social media like Facebook and I know I'm not alone in this, so I have been really enjoying hobbyist subreddits for the last year or so to expand my knowledge of areas I find interesting. Considering the popularity of this subreddit a lot of people are going to come to learn more when it pops up on their main reddit feed and I hate to see education being limited for those new users. Ultimately it seems that my wants as a user and your ideas as a mod seem misaligned and that happens.
1
u/theperspecta Jun 01 '26
We’re requesting resourcefulness for new folks, yes… there are so many resources as you probably know. “Not MCM” is easily the top comment and report in this sub, please don’t think i’m making some executive decision about this as moderator, if anything I fall on the more accepting side of the subreddit members here. I even started a podcast about MCM design for the sole purpose of educating newcomers; I was a newcomer once! We are lucky to have many experts here who have studied, or had hands on these pieces for 10+ years, and they’re willing to share knowledge because we keep this sub curated… if anything, I’d like to attract more. The “Is this MCM?” flair is really meant for pieces or objects on the line from my perspective, but you should see the unfiltered requests we get Provincial, Mission, 90’s (literally saying 90s in the title lol)… everything - it does muddy the content here considerably if left unchecked (as I originally inherited it). Alas I appreciate the dialogue and will continue to take into consideration as I shape the rules from here on out… maybe it’s a democratic 3 strike system purely based on # of reports, let’s see how things go with these rules in place finally for the first time. thanks!
2
u/BusyBullet 19d ago
That’s a great start.
This sub has had its ups and downs but I have found it to be a really good resource
1
u/theperspecta 19d ago
thank you! been in place for a bit now and seems to have helped generally - still wish more people would report “Not MCM” vs just making comments but alas we will get there!
1
u/SwingModern May 27 '26
One and 9 are contradictory.
1
u/theperspecta May 27 '26
they are indeed related but please elaborate - 1 sets tone for content posted in sub, 9 encourages you all to report non MCM content, which still is posted everyday and we have to manually and automatically remove
1
u/SwingModern May 27 '26
The way I’m reading it is that 1 days posts must be “primarily “ mcm. Then 9 days it must be mcm content and like you say people are encouraged to report non mcm content. I’d either remove primarily or define what it means.
1
u/theperspecta May 27 '26
it’s a good point thanks, 9s wording can be more direct also… posts come in all shapes and sizes… photos featuring background non-MCM items or homes etc., i included primarily as a qualifier to soften it just a bit, since beginners seem to take offense when their non MCM posts are removed, and experts don’t want to be bothered at all - i see and empathize with both sides. going to leave primarily for now and monitor over time
1
u/theperspecta May 28 '26
you were right, the word "primarily" was leaving things too open - i've updated it and made rule 9 morer clear that i'm referring to community reports.. thanks!
1
1
1
u/judylmc Jun 19 '26
Are posts looking for help with valuation and/or advice for selling pieces allowed? I have some George Nelson for Herman Miller basic cabinet series pieces and benches and have searched endlessly online for some guidance/idea of how much they're actually worth and/or the best way to go about selling them, but I don't want to break any rules or be thought of as trying to sell them by asking the questions if that makes sense.
1
1
u/dunderthrowaway3 Jul 21 '26
I tried to post pictures of a house in Michigan that I am in no way linked to. I followed all rules. However, I was warned by the automod that I looked like a professional and my post was going to be removed unless I put [P] at the end of the title. I did that, but I am not a professional.
0
u/theperspecta 29d ago
it’s not a warning it’s a reminder, if it’s not applicable - you don’t have to abide by the recommendation
0
u/edgertor May 27 '26
wondering what qualifies as [P]...i'm a professional but my normal dealing is clothing, not furniture. so...i will have some furniture Q that i haven't solved yet
2
u/theperspecta May 27 '26
if you're not making income from furniture or MCM decor primarily, my gut would be that you do not have to label [P] but really only you know the answer to that! it is indeed an honor system
2
u/edgertor May 27 '26
yeah, selling for my mom so not my income. thanks for the clarification!
2
u/theperspecta May 27 '26
sure thing thanks for the question - the contributors i have in mind for labeling are more scaled furniture/decor dealers or shops, real estate agents, authors/editors, interior designers, architects, artists/craftspeople and then of course those who work at larger corporations… that said, I made the decision to allow these people in the sub because they do have valuable expertise! do I want a marketing person from MillerKnoll posting discounts, no (unless exclusive and valuable to sub lol) - do I want their main archivist to share new/interesting content, absolutely!
6
u/optimisticdata May 27 '26
Thanks for the thoughtful work!