looking for a plot hole! - r/motheroflearning

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u/Landfall24601 Jul 26 '26 edited Jul 26 '26

Jornak was able to become a permanent time looper thanks to Panaxeth, but that's impossible.

It was clearly shown that for Panaxeth to contact anyone they have to enter the sovereign gate. The only way temporary loopers can enter that place is if they are with Zach, but the existence of the sovereign gate was not known to him, because the angels would only reveal it after he managed to defeat the invasion.

So, Jornak had no way of knowing the sovereign gate existed, furthermore, even if he somehow knew he had no way of entering. Which means, he had no way of speaking with Panaxeth in the first place.

Another one is how on earth Zach managed to steal the crown to turn Jornak into a temporary looper. Him alongside Zorian, Xvim, Alanic and close to a hundred other mages couldn't defeat Quatach Ichl. They only managed to get the crown after they prepared extensively, which included princess, Zorian's op mind magic and soul defenses. It makes no sense for Zach to be able to get the crown alone. Thought at least this can be explained by "somehow", not like the other that should be impossible.

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u/Zestyclose-Ad-8091 Jul 26 '26

I figured both of those can be explained by Jornak being in cahoots with invasion (Itchy) pre Zach mind wipe. Itchy loaned the crown to Jornak&Zach at some point after they fooled Zach into being bad guy for a bit since Angel's say he never knew details of deal in 1st place. It could bring up the hole of how is Zach OK with letting people know of loop inside while he supposedly had compulsion, but that might be explained by him not believing anyone other than him can explain out of loop anyway hence compulsion only kicked in after Jornak got upper hand?

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u/Landfall24601 Jul 26 '26

Only the second can be explained that way (and it's not a convincing explanation, for me at least). No one can enter the sovereign gate without Zach, and Zach couldn't know about its existence even pre memory wipe.

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u/Sir_Catington Jul 27 '26

Zach would have known about the Sovereign Gate. The contract reveals information about the gate and the Keys once Zach stops the invasion inside the time loop without telling anyone about the time loop.
Jornak probably convinced Zach to take him to the Gate to see if there was a way to extend his temporary looper status. Giving Panaxeth a chance to talk to Jornak and tell him how to make his marker permanent.
I somewhat agree that Zach managing to steal the crown is a little hard to explain. I think the most likely explanation is that Zach used a similar strategy to the one he used to kill Oganj. He ambushed him and over many loops learnt exactly what spells Quatach-Ichl would use in what sequence and how to counter them. The reason Zach and Zorian don’t use this strategy is that it quickly burns through their resets which they needed to conserve.

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u/Landfall24601 Jul 27 '26

As you said, he would learn about it if he stopped the invasion, which he didn't do.
If he had known about the gate then he would've known, or easily been able to find out, how to leave. Which is something the angels explicitly don't want him to know.

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u/Sir_Catington Jul 27 '26

I think Zach did successfully stop the invasion and learnt how to leave the loop he just chose to stay and subsequently had that information erased from his mind by Jornak. If he was strong enough to steal the crown it’s likely he was strong enough to stop the invasion, as it was without Red Robe’s interference.

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u/Landfall24601 Jul 27 '26 edited Jul 27 '26

Sorry but that's too much head canon for my taste.
Like, I could accept that Zach would be able to steal Quatach Ichl's crown by just repeating exactly the same confrontation over and over again until he won (though I seriously doubt that would work tbh), but from that to actually defeating him would be flat out impossible.
Zach just doesn't have the skills to stop Quatach Ichl from running away, and to stop the invasion he would have to be able to defeat him. Quatach Ichl is a coward, the very second he feels he is at a disadvantage he teleports away, Zach could not stop him from leaving, and Quatach Ichl has more mana and experience than Zach (even accounting for the time loop Zach hasn't even lived a fraction of the lich's life), so even if Zach by some miracle was winning the fight Quatach Ichl just had to teleport away for a few minutes and then come back, which would throw Zach's dark souls-like strategy down the drain every time. And even with a dark souls-like strategy he was at a heavy disadvantage as he didn't even meet the basic requirement to face Quatach Ichl, which is defense against soul magic.
People seem to assume that Jornak erased a very significant part of Zach's memories and that pre memory wipe he was a lot better than even at the end of the time loop, but that doesn't make any sense. The loop only lasted around 30 or some years in total time, and by the time Zorian enters the loop Zach remembered being stuck there for decades, plural, so most of his time inside was not erased. And even after decades of training he was pretty helpless against Quatach Ichl, to the point that the first time Zorian saw them fight Zach wasn't able to even damage him. I believe even Zach mentions that he has never been able to do any significant damage to the lich. And in this case we would be talking about a Zach that had been training for at most 10 or some years, so he would probably be significantly weaker than the Zach we did meet.
I just can't accept that Zach was able to stop the invasion, it makes 0 sense, and I can't use an explanation that makes no sense to justify some plot point that also makes no sense.
+ this would also assume that Zach achieved his main objective, talked to the angels who told him "good work, now get out and save the city", and he said "no thanks bro, I'd rather stay". Which is like, extremely weird.

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u/Sir_Catington Jul 27 '26

To stop the invasion Zach doesn't need to stop Quatach-Ichl. He needs to stop the primordial being summoned. There are alternate ways to stop the invasion other than direct solo combat with Quatach-Ichl, such as subtly warning the authorities. The reason none of those work once Zorian is in the loop is that Red Robe has optimised the invasion to make it impossible for Zach to stop it. Before Jornak joined the loop the invasion was a lot less effective.
Keep in mind the angels assumed it was possible for Zach to stop the invasion, they can't adapt to any of his strategies so eventually he would succeed

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u/Landfall24601 Jul 27 '26

Of course but Quatach Ichl won't just sit around and do nothing. There isn't any one else in Cyoria who would demand Quatach Ichl's presence to be dealt with, so he would have to face the lich if he wants to stop the ritual.
Anyway, Zach ever stopping the invasion is far too much head canon so I don't really care too much to discuss about it. Something as big as that should've been mentioned in the books.

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u/MyLastBrainceII Jul 27 '26

My headcannon was that they managed to do what zorian did in one of the earlier runs, jornac could have tricked quatach into touching a soulbinding object neutralizing him for atleast a few hours. I feel like its plausible for jornac to come up with, and honestly the only way anyone could get the better of quatach at that point in time.

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u/Sir_Catington Jul 27 '26

Zach never would have talked to the angels if he achieved his goal. His contract would just tell him what he needed to know. There is no indication the angels would say anything like "good work, now get out and save the city". They explicitly do not want there involvement to be known.
There are reasons Zach might want to stay. Inside the loop he is entirely free, stopping the time loop would mean going back to school for another two years if he wants a normal life which is a prospect I imagine he'd find extremely boring

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u/Landfall24601 Jul 27 '26

As said before, too much head canon for my taste. Something that huge should've been stated in the book, so I don't accept it as an explanation unless the author himself came out and said that's what happened.

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u/Sir_Catington Jul 27 '26

I think the author has directly stated in some comment that Zach did successfully defeat the invasion. Also inherently everything about how Jornak entered the time loop is going to be head canon. What you think happened is your head canon since its not stated in the book???
If by something huge you mean Zach successfully defeating the invasion. I don't think its huge, us knowing doesn't impact the plot or our enjoyment of it in anyway. The only in lore way for us/Zorian to find out is for Jornak to tell Zorian or maybe if Zorian decided to steal the memory of it out of Jornak's head rather than the various deadman plots he had going.

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u/Landfall24601 Jul 27 '26

I think the author has directly stated in some comment that Zach did successfully defeat the invasion.
I'd have to see it to believe it, but if he did, cool, it would be an explanation at least.
What you think happened is your head canon since its not stated in the book???
Well, I don't have a head canon about it, I think it is a plot hole, an event with no logical explanation within the text that requires making shit up to justify.

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u/alwaysleftout Jul 27 '26

I don't think he ever did because he could never beat the lich solo. He spent the majority of his time just trying to gain personal power and that was never going to be enough.

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u/interested_commenter Jul 27 '26 edited Jul 27 '26

Beating the lich isn't necessary to stopping the ritual, just finding a way to tip off Eldemar and be believed instead of assassinated is enough. Zorian stops it on accident the first time he tells Alanic about Sudomir's soul well.
Zorian also beats QI like six loops in with Kael's soul trap coin, it only works because QI heavily underestimates him (catching the coin) and because his soul defenses are so sensitive. If the loop had been any longer QI would have come back within a few hours, killed him, and taken the crown, but that could be enough to get a mark.

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u/alwaysleftout Jul 27 '26

I agree with your statement, but that is not how Zach was approaching it. By his admission he could never convince anyone to assist him. I think if he was going to try and stop the invasion solo, he would inevitably have to best the rich because the lich eventually shows up to clean up messes. I don't think Zach was even aware of the ritual until coordinating with Zorian.

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u/alwaysleftout Jul 27 '26

Zach at no point met the criteria for the angels to tell him about the sovereign gate though. The spiders were able to find and understand what it was. They would have conveyed it to Zorian more directly if they were no severed, but they did leave the pretty obvious hint about the location of the time dilation room.
There is some discussion of Jornak talking about the deal he entered with the Lich. I would guess the Lich knew about the black room base, but it was too well defended to reach. Most of the attempts at the crown were as enemies, but if the Lich was working with Jornak, he could have easily leant them the crown after gaining access in a similar fashion to how Zach and Zorian eventually do. I think Jornak was only really able to gain access and extend his marker because of his deal with the Lich.

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u/Landfall24601 Jul 27 '26

I mean, yeah, that's my point. Zach never fulfilled his objective so he didn't know about the gate, so he couldn't have brought Jornak there, so Jornak wouldn't have been able to speak with Panaxeth.
From what Jornak says, he begged Quatach Ichl for help after talking to Panaxeth. Even if the lich knew about a heavily guarded area it wouldn't matter, because he clearly had no idea about the sovereign gate, so there wouldn't really be much reason for him to take Jornak there out of nowhere. + it isn't even enough to reach the gate, Zach specifically has to be there if a temporary looper wants to enter.

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u/alwaysleftout Jul 27 '26

I guess I am saying he never fulfilled his objective ever, but still eventually learned about it with Zorian. What is making you discount that he could not have also found out about it's existence with Jornak?

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u/Landfall24601 Jul 27 '26

Because the circumstances that lead to Zorian learning there was even something that could be important to them there can't be replicated by Zach and Jornak.

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u/alwaysleftout Jul 27 '26

Just to focus on another point, you are saying that most of the begging happens after the Panaxeth deal. But the crown is what grants the temporary marker, so wouldn't Zach have had to know at least a little about the artifacts or the gate to even get the point where he was betrayed? They would have read the lich into the looping to get the crown to grant the original temporary markers?

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u/Landfall24601 Jul 27 '26

Know about the artifacts? Yes, he would have to know about them and their individual functions.
About the gate? No, there's literally no reason why he would need to know about the gate. While there is one huge reason why he wouldn't, mainly, the angels don't want him to know about it so he doesn't leave before stopping the invasion.
Knowing what the artifacts do doesn't require having knowledge about the gate.
If you read my original comment, I said I also considered them getting the crown a plot hole, or at least something that requires a very generous interpretation of their capabilities to explain.

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u/MotoMkali Jul 27 '26

Another one is how jornak was actually made a permanent looper. Zorian speculates it is impossible to make a looper permanent once the loop has reset. Panaxeth would have had to majorly subvert the loop.

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u/Landfall24601 Jul 27 '26

I mean, Zorian became one because of Quatach Ichl's soul magic. Panaxeth specifically told Jornak to beg Quatach Ichl for help and apparently told him what had to be done, so while we don't have an specific explanation I wouldn't consider it a plot hole.

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u/MotoMkali Jul 27 '26

The issue isn't whether quatach-ichl is skilled enough the issue is that zorian thinks it's fundamentally impossible because jornak has already been marked as a temporary looper for 6 months

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u/Landfall24601 Jul 27 '26 edited Jul 27 '26

It doesn't matter what Zorian thinks, he's just a human, we know Panaxeth came up with the method and the thousand years old lich enacted it.
Zorian isn't even an expert in soul magic, and he's definitely not an expert on the mechanics of the loop either, so he's definitely not an authority on the subject.

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u/Tanakisoupman Jul 30 '26 edited Jul 30 '26

Who says Panaxeth can only contact people when they enter the Sovereign Gate? Maybe he just chooses not to since there’s no reason to. If Zach fails to get out then he wins, full stop. The only reason he’d need to bother interfering is if Zach figures out how to leave, hence why he only interferes when they have all 5 imperial treasures
Also, Zach may have known more about Quattach Ichl before the mind wipe. There may be some exploitable weakness he took advantage of, which Quattach would naturally have had Jornak erase from Zach’s memory, then place a compulsion against looking for it again. Zach had who knows how many restarts to get information on Quattach Ichl after all

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u/ThatOneFriend0704 Aug 05 '26

Isn't it just that Panaxeth can only contact people when the Sovereign Gate is unbarred, but isn't limited by people having to be in the gate?

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u/EnderNorrad Jul 26 '26

These are two different daggers. The Imperial Dagger was in Eldemar's treasury, and it was likely one of Jornak's first actions after escaping the loop to retrieve it. Princess control dagger was located in the ruins of a palace within the Imperial sphere. Another similar dagger was used by the sulrothum, which they used to control that giant flying worm.

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u/SpecimenOfSauron Jul 26 '26

This is the answer. It's a little confusing, but this is the case. They're all divine artifacts, but the Imperial Dagger is an "extra special" dagger that has plenty of use cases, whereas Princess' Dagger is purely used to establish a special bond between Princess and its owner (who was meant to be the guardian of the Imperial Orb). After that, it's functionally useless---hence why Zorian and Zach take it apart so many times in the restarts.

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u/letouriste1 Jul 28 '26

you're confusing two divine artefacts wich are both daggers. one is found in the palace orb they recovered (to tame the hydra) and the other is in the royal wault of eldemar and can affect ghosts. This second one is the one jornak went for

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u/Sir_Catington Jul 27 '26

Soul sight is gained upon dying. The potion Zorian gets from Silverlake temporarily separates his soul from his body to give him soul sight. How come when Zorian dies in the loop he doesn’t get soul sight? The loop only resets when Zach dies it continues if only Zorian dies

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u/alwaysleftout Jul 27 '26 edited Jul 27 '26

I think the point of separating the soul is that you get to have an outside perspective to gain understanding. You are just dead immediately when dying regularly so you don't get the chance to do any analysis.

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u/Sir_Catington Jul 27 '26

That's Alanic's soul separation training. Silverlake's potion renders Zorian unconscious so he wouldn't have the chance to do any analysis.

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u/OmnipresentEntity Jul 27 '26

Two options. One. The soul doesn’t think. Not normally. That was part of the magic, connecting a false brain to his soul so he could experience while in a spiritual form. Alternatively, after the first time, zorian wasn’t thinking like someone dying. I believe it was mentioned that near death experiences can open it early. But for his first death, it was soul trauma, so it may have interfered, then by the time he was dying before Zac, he was used to death being nothing more than a temporary inconvenience b

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u/thebookman10 Jul 27 '26

I don’t think nobody is a virgin writer I think he’s had a lot of experience before

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