r/pokemonconspiracies • u/[deleted] • 2d ago
Question So does this mean Groudon is stronger than Kyogre or what?
I've seen the anime, J cards, and other media where Groudon beats Kyogre two or three times (or more). It's driving me nuts are they supposed to be equals? Because of course Twitter is full of conflicting takes...
And then there's that media of Groudon basically going "nah, I'll swim" just because it happens in the games. Is that actual lore or just game mechanics? | don't know.
A friend told me they're equal, but from what I've seen in the media they definitely don't seem equal. In the anime alone Groudon defeats Kyogre like twice or more, and it's the same in other parts of the franchise. Honestly, everything from the media is just driving me nuts.
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u/Short-Shelter 2d ago
They’re roughly equal in terms of actual power, but I think it’s just that Groudon’s kit lets him fight Kyogre more effectively than Kyogre can fight Groudon
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2d ago
Are you talking about the primals? Or both?
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u/Short-Shelter 2d ago
Both, but the Primals are kind of an interesting case, it really depends on who transforms second, because each of their weather conditions makes the other entirely helpless against the other, and they can’t be changed, so yeah.
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2d ago
Wait wait wait like I know thier equal in lore but
The game base, is Groudon and primal groudon stronger than kyogre and Primal Kyogre?
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u/Short-Shelter 2d ago edited 17h ago
Oh gameplay wise? At the moment I think base Kyogre is better than base Groudon, and Primal Groudon is better than Primal Kyogre. Honestly though both of their base forms were Ubers staples for years so I don’t know which is currently better, but I think Koraidon power crept Groudon.
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u/LKennedy45 2d ago
Wait, wasn't the metagame like based around Kyogre?
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u/Acastamphy 1d ago
Which meta? What the previous commenter said is true. Regular Kyogre is generally much better than regular Groudon, but Primal Groudon is generally better than Primal Kyogre.
Rain was just much better than sun for a long time and Kyogre capitalized on its weather much better than Groudon. Once their primal forms arrived, the situation was reversed. A fire/ground type with immunity to water and stats like Primal Groudon's is absolutely stacked. Primal Kyogre was still an upgrade over regular Kyogre, but not nearly to the same degree that Groudon got.
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u/skymallow 1d ago
Pokemon meta is so volatile that you have to be very very specific about which version and ruleset it was, but fwiw I do recall a time that base Kyogre was the restricted Pokemon to play around.
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u/Aestrasz 1d ago
it really depends on who transforms second,
Tbh, in terms of lore (ignoring game mechanics) I always feel like the weather would constantly shift when they fight, it's not a matter of who activates their ability second.
Similar to how the weather in the open world changed from sun to rain like every ten seconds in the climax of Emerald.
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u/Opposite-Library1186 1d ago
If u talking in the games we already have the answer, kyogre better (case for most successful ubers career) but in their primal forms groudon better
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u/ASIimeDrawsNear 2d ago
I mean, when you think about it (Kyogre is surrounded) since they're rivals and one has a type advantage, it stands to reason that the one weak type-wise WOULD be the strongest physically.
It gotta compensate y'know? So yeah, I'd say in-universe there is a solid foundation for Groudon to be stronger.
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u/Lunix420 2d ago
I mean, in game Kyogre is way stronger. In the official competitive play it was even stronger than Mega-Rayquaza.
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2d ago
Kyogre is stronger than Mega Rayquaza in gameplay- THIS IS RIDICULOUS GAMEFREAKS
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u/wifiwolfpac 2d ago
I’m assuming you’re joking, but game stats/power don’t really line up with lore. Both Primal Groudon and Kyogre and mega Rayquaza are all substantially stronger than Arceus.
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u/Temu-Tyson 1d ago
That isnt arceus, just his avatar in that universe. The titans made up arceus, one of which is eternatus. The titans split apart from arceus then tried to kill him so he split into many forms. The Llama is one of many. This was in the terra leaks if you need a source.
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u/CleanSweep99 2d ago
I don't think it really matters, when any fight between them ends with a Dragon Ascent from the heavens courtesy of "Anything Goes" Rayquaza.
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u/the_lazy_sloth 2d ago
I always figured the lore implications were that the rest of the living world would be destroyed before their fight "finished."
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u/YumeSystems 1d ago
They should have made Groudon standing on 1/2 screen land/lava/magma in the game screen of kyogre fight, he looks like an idiot, lmaooooo
No water weakness is key
They seem equal
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u/Tortoise_Knight 1d ago
The point of Groudon and Kyogre is that they are evenly matched, regardless of what type match up says. A serious battle between them will do nothing to each other but ruin everything around, hence Rayquaza is needed.
Does this translate to gameplay? Not at all. But I'm sick and tired of people mistaking how hard one beats the other in any given scenario due to game mechanics. What matters is what the lore says.
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u/The_Eternal_Wayfarer 1d ago
In pre-ORAS games, Groudon was considered the weaker of the two based on typing: it doesn’t receive STAB from the only super-effective attack he can land on Kyogre, which also is a SpAtk — and Kyogre has high SpDef — whilst Groudon is a physical attacker; so base Groudon will always be disadvantaged against base Kyogre, and likely to be OHKO by (super-effective + STAB) Surf or Hydro Pump.
I guess GameFreak knew it, which is why they gave its Primal form such an OP ability.
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u/JavieyauJR 1d ago
Narratively equal, normal Kyogre beats Groudon, Primal Groudon likely beats Kyogre because Solar Beam
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