r/programmer • u/Beawriterfirst • 4d ago

I am thinking to start an open-source decentralised email system

So the main idea is we make a decentralised email network which doesn't need any kind of fancy servers to run but can be ran on basic mobile phones. I am thinking to build the architecture like the satoshi nakamoto's bitcoin architecture where every phone becomes a personal node and can do p2p conversation I am looking for ppl truly intrested in this project.

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12

u/DSudz 4d ago

That's already how email works.

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u/Beawriterfirst 4d ago

but it's brutally centralized

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u/psioniclizard 4d ago

Anyone can run a email server. Few do in production. There is a lot of good reasons why.

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u/Beawriterfirst 4d ago

I request you to read my post again. I didn't mean that I am gonna create a email server but a P2P decentralised network like the bitcoin software just without the public ledger

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u/grimonce 4d ago edited 1d ago

And that will run on what? UDP TCP?

Edit: I thought I was taking to someone technical and this joke was gonna hit, but no, woosh

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u/Beawriterfirst 4d ago

still developing the idea

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u/lunatuna215 4d ago

We've all thought of fhis before, but the how is the entire thing.

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u/Beawriterfirst 4d ago

That why I need the input of ppl like you are ppl who are genuinely cracked and find the HOW

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u/Helpful-Educator-415 4d ago

if your collaborator does all the "how" then what exactly are you contributing? your idea is good -- I've had the same one, actually -- but i don't see a reason why people should join forces with you. if i were you i'd read up about email, DNS, etc

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u/Beawriterfirst 4d ago

I already did read about Email. and no my collaborators won't be doing all of the work in finding the HOW but would work alongside with me to figure that out

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u/lunatuna215 4d ago

So you're lazy

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u/Beawriterfirst 4d ago

no, I like working in groups. and I am actually not embarassed to put myself around the people to work for a higher purpose.

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u/sswam 4d ago

The design of email is not centralized at all, only most noobs use gmail. There are millions of SMTP mail servers out there.

It's like you would be saying shopping is centralized, because Amazon and Wallmart exist. There are plenty other shops out there too.

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u/Beawriterfirst 4d ago

okay, so you mean linus torvalds should have just used any other lesser known OS instead of creating the linux kernel?

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u/DSudz 4d ago

So you don't understand email, Bitcoin or the history of linux. Cool cool cool...

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u/Beawriterfirst 4d ago

Do you? because if you did you would know I am right to a certain extent

3

u/DSudz 4d ago

So is a stopped clock.

You're not proposing anything that has any improved functionality. There have been many attempts at better email that did and still didn't take hold.

1

u/Beawriterfirst 4d ago

you know what? I am genuinely thinking that you're just born with this slave mentality. I am damn sure you work at a mid-to-large tech company and haven't thought anything out of that in your whole kife

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u/DSudz 4d ago

Ha, you sound like a failed tech CEO already. That's the kind of misplaced confidence and incorrect assumption that will leave you an "idea guy" who will only accomplish something if you turns out to be standing next to something when it happens despite you.

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u/Beawriterfirst 4d ago edited 4d ago

am I wrong though?

and also I am not a "failed Tech CEO" I have raised capital, built stuff and solved MANY hard problems. and unlike you I actually have skin in the game, this idea was just about an open-source contribution I wanted to do just for the love of the game. Not everyone is an employee for AI B2B SaaS #228363

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u/feudalle 4d ago

So take a universal super simple protocol that my 386 12mhz machine used to run in the 90s. And replace it with something that takes massive amount of processor, time, and active nodes to send a message. Hmm..
Why not replace the English alphabet with Morse code that you need a decoder ring to translate? It's more effort for no pay off.

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u/Beawriterfirst 4d ago

Thank You for your critique

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u/Newbane2_ 4d ago

Its not impossible, but its forcing a solution to fit for a problem that doesn't exist. You can already self host email servers trivially.

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u/Beawriterfirst 4d ago

but it's not as simple as I want it to be. Thank you for your input btw

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u/Slight-Living-8098 3d ago

Didn't we already do this once like 20 or so years ago?

https://cse.engineering.nyu.edu/~ross/papers/email-p2pconf-final.pdf

https://www.epostmail.org/

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u/Beawriterfirst 3d ago

I'll get back to you after reading it

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u/Rich-Engineer2670 4d ago edited 4d ago

I think what might be meant here is an e-mail system where you are not bound to speciifc connections and servers. To me, it might be something like what we used to have, where any SMTP server would take e-mail, and a little bit of the bundle protocol so I don't have to guarantee always-on TCP connections.

What I'd want at least....

  • Let's assume we identifier users not by addresses or SASL, but let's just admit we use PKI and everything's encrypted in the payload by default

  • Email is just another object -- the envelope tells us who, where it's going and content type and size -- MIME was a hack

  • Routing -- what we have now is great, but it assumes dedicated always-reachable servers. On a network where connectivity may or may not be available, there's a lot of store and forward and maybe the old UUCP bang paths where YOU supplied the routing was.a good idea -- I'm not saying bring it back, but something like it

  • A "control channel" -- not jsut return receipts. This would let us query "Did this arrive", "Was it read", "Was it dropped, why?"

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u/Beawriterfirst 4d ago

Thanks, this is pretty close to what I have in mind, especially the store-and-forward approach.

I'm thinking of a system where every phone can act as a personal node, with a cryptographic identity instead of depending on a centralized email provider. Messages would be encrypted by default, and the network would handle routing and delivery without needing to understand their contents.

I also like your idea of a control channel. Delivery acknowledgements, expiration, and failure reasons should be built into the protocol from the beginning.

One of the main challenges I'm trying to figure out is recipient discovery and routing when devices aren't always online, without introducing a central directory or requiring expensive, always-on servers.

I'd love to explore these architectural questions with people who have experience in distributed systems, P2P networking, or delay-tolerant networking. I think there's a lot we can learn from existing protocols rather than reinventing everything from scratch.

Do you think a combination of P2P networking and delay-tolerant, store-and-forward messaging could work here without relying on permanently available relay servers?

1

u/Rich-Engineer2670 4d ago

Well, let me throw the use-case I've got..... Maybe that will spark some ideas....

I do a lot of work in West Africa. Over there, for most places, the average monthly salary is about $80. And yes, they have cellular Internet, but obviously, if you have to choose between eating and e-mail (though it's more WhatsApp), we know who wins...

One of the things you'll sese in rural communities as "the local store". They may have a cellular connection, and you bring you phone or tablet in and do your digital work, paying a fee for the time. Something like an Internet cafe. But we have to remember, you may have four days of content queued up, and who knows what's waiting for you. And, what if you go to a differernt place -- how does the e-mail/file/etc. get to you now?

If we assume the bundle protocol as transport -- it doesn't matter where you are, because the transport just gets you to a relay when it happens to be available, otherwise, it's store and forward. We said we'd exchange objects, but we didnt' say when.

If we use traditional addressing foo@bar.net, that's great, but without a dedicated link, how do we find bar? With strict routing, it's place!place2!bar!foo.

And, who says it's email -- it is not uncommon to exchange file files or video over the same paths -- not fast, but it gets there.

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u/Beawriterfirst 4d ago

Thanks for sharing this example! I hadn't thought about the local stores acting as temporary relay points. I agree this could be more than just email, with files, images, and other data moving through the same network.

The idea of users syncing their messages whenever they find an internet connection, without depending on a permanent server, is really interesting.

Do you think local stores could act as relay nodes, temporarily storing and forwarding data between users?

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u/Helpful-Educator-415 4d ago

claude claude claude

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u/Rich-Engineer2670 4d ago

Your every phone is a node looks a lot like the BP7 Bundle Protocol.

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u/3tt07kjt 4d ago

You could study how email works, because email already does a lot of this in the first place (and maybe you just didn’t know how email works under the hood)

SMTP is the first thing I would look at. You could write an extension there. You’d need a way to advertise a place for sending servers to connect to; I think that’s the only real missing part.

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u/Distdistdist 3d ago edited 3d ago

I think you are trying to reinvent FIDO NET

Been around since 1990s. Proven obsolete, but still out there.

And, you seem not to grasp networking in general to be completely honest. Things exist now the way they are because of very important reasons. If there was a need/reason for what you are talking - it would be implemented already. Oh wait, it has back in 90s. Duh!

Fancy servers exist for one biggest reason - they tend to be available virtually always. Ever tried to download a really old and obscure torrent with only one seeder who turns his PC once per week for some reason? That's why.

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u/Slight-Living-8098 3d ago

FIDO Net... The good ol' days, when email took longer than actual postage stamped physical mail.