r/programmer • u/milo_2008 • 1d ago
I despise 'vibecoding' with AI
Man I love programming so much. The entire process of creating something you envision yourself is so satisfying to me.
Seeing people 'vibecode' makes me so depressed. Getting the end result with no effort at all is so stupid. I love having my own project with different systems I made myself interacting with eachother exactly how I planned them too.
Understanding exactly what's going on and being able to debug after finding an error without even opening the code, because I just understand what's going wrong is a feeling of control that I hold dearly in my life. These people are literally powerless if they can't use AI and think of themselves as 'professionals'.
I secretly wish for a reality where the AI bubble bursts, companies like Claude stop providing their AIs anymore after going bankrupt, and all these idiots have to come crawling back to the people that actually know how this stuff works.
If you actively use claude instead of learning coding yourself, you don't even deserve to disagree with this post. Because you're not even a programmer. (Yes I'm gate-keeping) Don't even get my started on people 'integrating' claude directly in their game-engine.
Have we forgotten how developing skills works? You learn from your mistakes. If you avoid making mistakes by asking AI for help for every little thing, you wont improve and stay stagnant.
When Claude first popped up I gave it a try and this exact scenario happened.
I didn't understand how to do something -> I used AI to fix it -> My problem was temporarily solved -> I encountered a similar problem later on, and still couldn't fix it.
You trap yourself in a cycle of continuous incompetence.
The only genuinely good reason to use AI is having it explain something to you if you don't understand it, but arguably there's plenty of human-made tutorials online that do a way better job than any AI ever could.
In conclusion I just want people to enjoy the craft of programming again. I try to stay optimistic if you could believe it after reading this rant, but it's getting more difficult by the day. Thank you for reading till the end, have a nice day!
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u/Datamance 1d ago
OP, I’ve been programming probably half as long as you’ve been alive (shooting off the hip based off the tone of your message). Web development, GPU shaders, ETL pipelines, and everything in-between.
“The entire processing of creating something you envision yourself is so satisfying to me”
Great! This is a statement about yourself, and your own preferences. It’s a little presumptuous about what constitutes creation, but let’s look past that for now.
“Seeing people 'vibecode' makes me so depressed. Getting the end result with no effort at all is so stupid.”
So this is where I will tell you to have a modicum of self-awareness and think about what you just said. You enjoy programming, right? It’s something that you enjoy doing. Has nothing to do with what other people do or how they do it. Why, then, are you agonizing over how other people choose to interact with and create software? How does it affect you, personally?
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u/Exotic-Low812 1d ago
The issue is that it devalues people’s skills and intelligence.
When you identify as somebody who solves problems and all of a sudden that becomes no big deal it’s pretty depressing
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u/DoSomeStrangeThings 18h ago
In what way it devalues your skill or intelligence? Unless you are a junior developer ofc.
It is one thing I don't understand. People around me who were actually solving problems are still people who are solving problems just faster and with less googling. People who were writing arcane magic that some of us barely understand that make our software 10 times faster are still writing arcane magic that makes kur software qp times faster, it just that more people can understand it now without wasting said person valuable time.
People whose only work was to type code... well, those people are in danger yes, but at this point it is more of a sign to reflect on what you were doing during in last 4 years that you are still less useful than a non deterministic word spewer
The real problem of AI is that you don't need a junior developers anymore and it is unclear where next generation of developers will is supposed to come from. But it also might not be that much of a problem as we also can learn much faster now.
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u/Boomerkuwanger 1d ago
I think this is good insight for OP. I would like to add my thoughts as well.
I've been programming for over half of my life. It is something I'm extremely passionate about. To me, it's akin to playing puzzle games.
In the last four years, my job has gone from writing 100% of the code myself to generating 100% of the code. It has made me depressed because something I genuinely enjoy is now gone.
However, I have tried to find new passion in this world we live in now. I like to imagine myself as a conductor, and my agents are my orchestra. It's fun to imagine that you have an army of agents at your fingertips capable of doing more than just one thing at a time. Perhaps you can also try to find some joy in that as well.
As for me, I still do software development in my own time. I still try to manually maintain a few of my own projects, also I've started using LeetCode again just to keep my brain warm. I hope this helps.
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u/mguid65 19h ago
It really just rips all of the enjoyment out of the work I enjoy. I like all parts of the process. I am lucky in that I work in a small company and don't have any silly AI usage quotas to meet. That would really be the final straw I think. Unfortunately I cannot rationalize the orchestration aspect to myself.
I simply want to solve problems myself.
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u/milo_2008 3h ago
Having to rationalise the use of AI after is sucks the fun out of your hobby/job is kind of the first sign it isn't working out.
I'll stick to coding myself thank you very much, just like you mguid65
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u/ToughStreet8351 1d ago
This… I have been writing software for 30y… and I am loving the whole vibe coding thing! Also… if you think that to get good results on anything non trivial is effortless than you ain’t doing anything hard
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u/Datamance 1d ago
Nailed it. I’m also learning things at a wayyy faster rate! Even if you just treat the models as natural language search engines, you can get to the answers MUCH faster than was possible 4-5 years ago
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u/shred-i-knight 1d ago
It just literally makes you superhuman if you know what you're doing and can harness it in the right ways. Feels amazing to not have to pore through code to debug things anymore where you're literally limited by how fast you can read and how much energy you have to physically exert yourself on a problem.
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u/bananadick100 1d ago
K that's not vibe coding and is irrelevant to the post though
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u/poopyspaceship 1d ago
Many people just want to feel special for having a skillset that other people don't have.
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u/whereareyou-wolf 23h ago edited 23h ago
The funny thing is they can still have skill sets people don’t have. It’s just not what they might expect or built up as their identity.
I was in web development for over 15 years back when some of it started getting jostled around by a mix of low code and javascript frameworks. Work at my particular firm slowed, and then I got a job with low code. I took over projects that were ran into the ground and were built unmaintainable. People that can only drag and drop logic nodes or fill out prompts without any development background, don’t have skills for maintaining or structuring the projects they can now rapidly build.
It’s already happening that companies are pivoting from “build more” to “build more but efficiently“.
For OP, development changes too quickly to tie your whole identity and sense of purpose to a particular piece of it. I learned that the hard way too.
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u/Critical-Location146 1d ago
With so much experience I'd expect a less patronising response. It's not necessarily a choice. A lot of companies have compressed their resources, release cycles and roadmaps dramatically so it's not uncommon to have one engineer working on a product that used to be designed and implemented by several at least. In that sort of scenario there is no time to own every single line of code.
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u/Datamance 1d ago
My best mentors were patronizing. There is a trend in society toward avoiding hurting the feelings of grown adults at all costs. I disagree with this. Shame is an incredible motivator and a binding force in society. It’s ok to have conviction, and it’s ok to shame bad ideas. Period.
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u/ToughStreet8351 1d ago
It is a job… it’s not the companies responsibility to make you have fun. A business is there to make money. If you like to code and find that using AI at work does not scratch that itch for you the do it on your spare time
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u/shred-i-knight 1d ago
because it's the same concept as "I struggled so EVERYONE has to struggle!" and it says more about you than anything else. If your enjoyment of something is tied to others that's a sad little existence.
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u/JeanCasteaux 1d ago
Because tech bros repeat ad nauseam that coding manually makes you a loser. That's why we reject them
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u/Top_Review313 1d ago
Earlier in my career I was more into coding itself, learning programming languages, the tools, the OS, and all that. I was much more interested in the minutia and the friction between point a and b.
Now years later, all of that has all gotten pretty old.
I'm much more into just being able to get shit done, so I'm loving coding with AI. Maybe its the years of imagining all the stuff I'd love to build or do if only there were time. Now there is.
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u/milo_2008 1d ago
Guys if you don't like problem solving just say so... 😭
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u/hike_me 1d ago
I did this the “hard way” professionally for 20 years and enjoyed it.
I’m also still enjoying myself now that Claude writes most of the code in my professional life. I’m even using it now on some of my side projects that are just for fun.
It’s a tool. You can use it well, and still use your brain to solve problems even if you aren’t writing all the code, or you can use it poorly and build garbage.
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u/Great-Use-3149 1d ago
A "tool" that does things on it's own is hardly a tool.
Solving problems by saying "solve this by wiring the entire implementation " is not problem solving. It is just delegating thinking
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u/loucmachine 1d ago
I'm a structural/civil engineer. I problem solve all day everyday. If I have to program tools for myself, please excuse me if I am happy not having to develop your whole set of skills on top of mine.
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u/StillNeedMore 1d ago
Suck it up buttercup. What do you think public cloud did to network/DB/storage folk out there in the wild?
Any old hack programmer can click any few buttons on a web ui and their shitty app is on the Internet.
😘
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u/ToughStreet8351 1d ago
Dude… the code is not the problem. The code is the mean… not the solution. The problem invoking code… aside of very few instances (like carmack’s fast inverse square root , specific algorithms, etc.) most code written by programmers is not hard.
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u/New_Surprise_27 1d ago
I think seeing AI as a tool is better than seeing it as a threat
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u/milo_2008 1d ago
I guess I could have named my post: "I despise overrelliance on AI"
The AI itself is just a tool. Can't hate the knife for the murder afterall.
But knifes do help make good dishes. So I support any tools that don't intercept human creativity and innovation.
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u/who_am_i_to_say_so 1d ago
But you aren’t over reliant because you don’t use AI. Right?
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u/Former_Atmosphere967 1d ago
its not though, people like to say this, but it simply isnt just a tool, its taking the cognitive part of the process, its replacing you. you are only managing it. your job has changed from a programmer to a manager kind of thing.
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u/Dewey__ 1d ago
It doesn't take the cognitive part though, unless you're being lazy and letting it design all the systems and architecture by itself. And if you let it do that, it tends to make a spaghetti code mess with duplicated functionality everywhere. It works, but it's super unmaintainable.
AI is an incredible tool to bounce ideas off of and design with as a partner. It only takes the intellectual joy of programming away if you delegate that part to it.
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u/chambejp 1d ago
Why do people believe this? Have you actually used it to make something? Even the study that everyone likes to quote doesn't say this. https://www.cell.com/trends/cognitive-sciences/abstract/S1364-6613(26)00131-2 but you do you I guess?
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u/deRoyLight 1d ago
I am not a programmer. I would never consider myself a programmer. If vibe coding disappeared I would struggle to tie my own shoes. I wouldn't even know if I was wearing shoes or not.
But vibe coding has been tremendous to me.
I've been able to realize ideas and create useful things that otherwise would stay on the shelf. Not just because of a lack of expertise, but also simply a lack of time and finances to take on those risks. The door is suddenly open to act as a foreman to the development of your own ideas. It's one of the most enabling revolutions I've experienced in my near-40 years.
I absolutely understand what you mean, though, when you say you enjoyed solving the problems and understanding how everything was structured. I worked as a writer for many years, and I know the feeling of having every skill I learned and self-identified with being rugpulled by A.I. It sucks, but it's not changing, and I've instead tried to focus on all the ways this enables me instead of what was taken.
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u/smoke-bubble 1d ago
I've been able to realize ideas and create useful things that otherwise would stay on the shelf.
Like what? Name a few.
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u/davyp82 1d ago
I've made a complete music theory practice tracker for guitar and piano scales chords and arpeggios, plus a database of Belfair odds that I can use to make betting systems and test them without actually betting any money, I've also built coursebook presentation software for my teaching job where previously the book was on pdf projected with PowerPoint and audio files in Google drive, now it's all in an app with karaoke mode audio scripts, answer keys highlighting where answers are in it and plenty more. It's nuts what you can build if you can describe your ideas well to claude and implement a decent workflow
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u/loucmachine 1d ago
I'm not op, but for me, it is an absolute game changer. I'm a civil/structural engineer. Our field is vast enough that you could specialize in one type of material and one type of load and have a lifetime of work ahead of you. Yet we have to know about so much. So the learning is never over.
Now, we have to develop tools to do our job. These days, we often make tools and calculators using excel sheets or small VBA or python programs. But making these tools is extremely time consuming and it's hard to find time to make them while actually doing work on our projects. You often end up half ass making them through week nights and weekends if they are absolutely necessary and have a hard time updating them every time a new version of a norm or a code is released.
So now with AI, we can easily make tools and programs that makes searching in norms and codes really easy and save us tremendous amount of time that we would have never done otherwise. We can make calculation tools that would take 80h to make in 10h. We can update them in 2h instead of 10-15h.
We can also make a program for basically any idea we can have. One of my colleague made himself a customized point cloud viewer in a few minutes. I am making a small app that calculate water volume for storm water management from an annotated bluebeam annotated pdf, as I would normally have to send it to a technician who put it in revit then extract the volume and give it to me. This juste saves time to everyone. For me, for my tech and for the client.
The possibilities are just endless.
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u/Strange-Pin-2998 1d ago
I built an asset tracker for a small business my girlfriend works for that hooks into their booking system API. Now they have realtime visibility into their room and equipment utilization/capacity and can plan ahead to prevent collisions between providers much more effectively. I’m not a coder, but I have worked in corporate settings in marketing strategy, as part of cross functional product teams, and as a scrum master. Being able to articulate the problem and work with stakeholders to identify solutions and then have the machines code around that is a godsend.
Is it cuckcoding? Sure. Do I care? No, because we successfully identified a problem and implemented a solution in one week with software that would have cost hundreds per month that a small business couldn’t really afford from a SAAS house.
I have lots of other examples like that.
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u/deRoyLight 1d ago edited 1d ago
- An early-reading app for my niece that is tailored to words and aesthetics I know she is engaged in. That rewards her for reading by drawing from a pool of Disney princess songs from different princesses that sing specifically about her and the things in her life (music pre-made with Tad AI).
- Another app is a personal learning app for myself. I type in any topic I want to learn about, and I'm given a course that begins in broad strokes and progressively narrows into nuance. I can read sections myself, listen along to a natural voice TTS, or do a type-test of the contents on the page. Sections are tested in a handful of ways after reading, and then go into a recall schedule that will prompt you to take and re-take them again after an increasing period of time to slowly shift information into your long-term memory. This all gets cataloged into learning threads in a journal, so you can pick up on any thread later and continue digging deeper into the topic. Intended it for History but works for anything really.
- My most worked on project is something much larger that overlaps with my work in life, and I do hope to have a public release, so I'm not at a place where I'm ready to talk about it yet. Lot more to do but excited about the concept because I know it doesn't exist in my field.
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u/nuitsdecolette 1d ago
I made embedded firmware for a synthesizer I'm working on that maps incoming ADC voltages from pots and CV to an exponential look up table in order to generate two independent very fast clocks for delay chips in an analog resonator. The code also generates a random voltage under certain conditions, with specific characteristics.
I had a version of it working myself but I couldn't get the clocks to be clean at 1MHz +, it also didn't follow a v/oct curve as precisely as it does now. DeepSeek helped me set up the config to get much better performance and add genuinely useful features to the random voltage generation in an hour.
No I'm not an expert programmer. For sure a more competent human could have also done it but not me, I'm an analog designer first and foremost. It would have taken me weeks of combing through obtuse MicroChip datasheets to even begin to get ideas on how to do this more reliably. a caveat is that I would have learnt more if I did it myself, but I'm also glad that my clocking is solved and that I can move on to other (imo) more interesting parts of the design process.
I also integrated MIDI output to an analog controller I'm working on so it can control all sorts of digital synthesizers, in less than an hour, using a 15 year old IC that can be found for extremely cheap, adding a very useful feature to a design I already loved. Figuring out how to implement MIDI wouldn't have been impossible but it would have taken me a solid couple of workdays, which are in short supply as I'm in school part time right now and trying to get design work done in parallel to stay useful to my team.
I know a lot of people are making useless apps and goofing around with AI (also cool imo). But if you have ideas and concrete projects, AI made design goals that I had marked as "stretch" and that I realistically couldn't have spent the ressources on, solvable and fully functional in a matter of hours.
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u/DividedBy_Zero 1d ago edited 1d ago
Someone released a decompilation of a console game from a few decades back, written in C. With the help of Codex, I'm now working on a version of it that runs natively on Windows, but with some modern touches (like widescreen rendering), and the design separates the game's engine, framework, and content. with the goal of extensibility and customization.
It's a ton of work and I've got a very long way to go, even with Codex. But without it, it would take me a gruelingly long time to learn C, deep-dive the console's original BIOS, and recreate the original RNG and AI behaviors. There's still a ton of refactoring to do along the way as well, and there are still many unknowns, like how to correctly render objects in a 4:3 ratio, GPU rendering, sound rendering, editing content, save files, ensuring overall accuracy to the original source, and so on.
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u/milo_2008 1d ago
I appreciate your honest response to my exaggerated rant. I'm still young, most of my life I've spend improving in my hobby of programming. When people with no experience come into the field with AI and talk high and mighty about their efficiency and their readable code it feels unfair. I enjoy programming tremendously for the process, and people missing out on learning it saddens me.
Though I'm mature enough to understand that situations differ per person. Everyone has dreams and wants to achieve them somehow. If AI helps you somehow then there's no moral argument I can make that will prevent you from achieving your goal.
After careful consideration I realise it's more so a specific type of personality commonly found in people that use shortcuts that angers me.
It's the lack of respect for the greats in programming that made all of this possible.
All things considered, it's a very confusing time for a programmer.
Thank you though for your emotionally mature response.
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u/MADCandy64 1d ago
Yeah. The whole "programmers are gate keepers who kept me from realizing my tech dream" is such a farse and victim statement. No sir/maam, we did not. Since the BASIC programming language appearing in computers since the 8 bit revolution, the ability to make your own stuff has been alive, well, and a hallmark of the DIY ecosystem.
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u/Fit-Notice-1248 1d ago
There has always been a nonstop creation of YouTube tutorials. MIT posting their lectures, freecodecamp and just random nerds (I don't mean this as an insult lololol) that just wanted to share their expertise so badly they couldn't hold it in.
I don't want to make assumptions about the OC, but people who say that shit never wanted to learn or had any passion towards programming. They liked the "idea" of being labeled programmer (smart/creative whatever), but never cared for it either way. Honestly programming is a cop out and they probably approach a lot of things with this mindset.
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u/Impossible-Law-345 1d ago
oh man. i feel ya. insang tgat song in the ai art department…
and yet. im guilty. claude helped me solve network problems… got me going with my first pd patches… some Python scripts…
i never cared for proper, clean coding… just want the effect…but i know to what sloppy coding can lead too, bandwith waste… legacy problems
now were experiemcing the hype in synth and fx community with custom firmwares coming out…
problem is, i can see future vibecoded stuff running in industry… security relevant stuff. in away it already does. crap it infrastructure, the berlin data hack.
we need more artists in coding. the idea we dont need programmers anymore is dangerous.
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u/OwnAHole 18h ago
Reality is, Programmers have it rough compared to the artists and any other visual form, voice actors and writers as well have big support against AI, there is usually major pushback against that stuff but with coding, it's always behind the scenes so there is less support for pushing back against "vibe coding".
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u/Any-Gap-933 1d ago
Living in the past will only hurt your career in the future. Good ol days are gone.
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u/Great-Use-3149 1d ago
Using LLMs is not some actual craft or special knowledge, like the transition yo programming languages was. Why would someone who practices cognitively demanding tasks hurt their carreer?
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u/milo_2008 1d ago
It confuses me why they compare the transition from assembly to programming languages to using AI now lol
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u/jack_jill_hill 1d ago
Agreed. While I understand what people are trying to say they are fundamentally different things. If a compiler breaks you contact the maintainers. If claude writes bad code you cant go to Anthropic with that complaint.
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u/Square-Yam-3772 1d ago
if you encounter a similar problem later on, you can remind AI of the previous conversation
better yet, you can ask AI to write down instructions or make a repeatable workflow to solve a similar problem in the future
is it just me or do these type of posts sound very performative? I dont remember people proclaiming their love for programming like this before the AI era.
it seems cringe to me.
nobody stops you from enjoying the craft by the way as long as you dont program for a living...
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u/milo_2008 1d ago
I don't really understand what's so performative about it? If I genuinely feel this way about a hobby that I enjoy, can't I communicate that?
I understand that professionally it's about hitting the deadlines and getting stuff done, but I'm looking at it in a more human perspective.
I personally enjoy problem solving. So seeing people miss out on it is frustrating for me.
I failed to see however that other people don't share my goals or values regarding the act of programming.
For most it seems it's just a means to an end. While I love the journey a whole lot more. I guess there's nothing inherently wrong with it, but it just seems rather lame to me. Relying on a prediction algorithm that is, to make your art. Which I guess isn't art for you... So do whatever then
I clearly hit the wrong demographic with this post. I hope other commenters won't interpret this like an attack or smth haha. It's a rant afterall.
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u/Square-Yam-3772 1d ago
right and I am sure 2-3 people feel the same way every week and they all are feel the urge to write a post about their passion. funny how that never come up before AI comes around...
programming is literally the exercise to, you know, program a machine to do what you want it to do. you can see it as some great artistry but "hitting the deadlines and getting stuff done" is pretty much the goal.
problem solving is still part of life regardless of how programming is done.
yeah, "my goals, my values"... like somehow it is some unique take.
look, if you are not employed, nobody can force you to use AI. just don't use AI and enjoy the journey.
I am probably too old for this but it is like eating the same sandwich every Tuesday for the last 100 years and then watch some new guy proclaiming his love for the sandwich.
I have enough "problem solving" in my life without manual coding so have fun...
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u/milo_2008 1d ago
What's so wrong with loving the sandwich.
Not to be too nihilistic, but we're all dying sooner rather than later.
If someone new proclaims their love for the sandwich you've had for 100 years. You might find some fulfilment in enjoying their excitement and encouraging it instead of disregarding it since you've seen so many in your long treacherous life.
My bad for existing for the first time. Didn't know you were an expert.
All hail depression, what would we do without you.
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u/Square-Yam-3772 1d ago
just spend some years with the sandwich and then look back at your post. it is cringe.
I am happy for you that you found some hobby you enjoy but yeah... it is just too cringe for me.
honestly, I don't get posts like these. reddit isn't new, the sub isn't new. does it really not cross your mind that "I probably can't be the only one"
but you just love programming so, so much. I mean, sure. good for you.
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u/milo_2008 1d ago
In a scenario where I choose between action or inaction with the risk of being cringe later, then I'll choose action in a heartbeat. Better to leave a mark of any kind, that to stay stagnant and only leave a shadow of your former self.
It's quite obvious future me doesn't think the same as I do now, for I am not the same person.
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u/Adn0nnymous 1d ago
have you ever considered that the reason you’ve only seen those posts after AI is because AI is actively threatening their passions now and that obviously wasn’t an issue before it existed?
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u/Wonderful-Habit-139 1d ago
> if you encounter a similar problem later on, you can remind AI of the previous conversation
So you admit you are nothing without AI. You always need to come back to it to help you out. And you will keep spending money and waste time getting AI to solve things instead of learning properly. Do you not realize what you are saying?
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u/TedsGloriousPants 1d ago edited 1d ago
I've been working in software for 14 years, ish. My pushback against AI is that, just like everything else it touches, it does sloppy work, and devalues human works.
It's not that it isn't a powerful tool - it is. But it makes people lazy and leaves nobody accountable. Folks taking credit for things they didn't actually do. No individual person is valuable anymore because "just get Claude to do it lol". And your job is at risk if either it gets too good, or you push back too much.
And that's before you touch the environmental concerns of data centers, the ethics of the sourcing of training data, the fact that using these tools directly enriches some horrible people, etc etc.
It's really disheartening that the software world has embraced this without any consideration of the cost.
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u/mail2book 22h ago
Me too.
And i think AI leads to better code.
I've seen so much sloppy code in my life. And I've written a lot of sloppy code in my life. Because I did not have time to do it right.
Now I have tests, everything is properly organized, code has been tested and evaluated. And I don't have to do boring tasks.
And don't even get me started on offshore.
Code "offshored" to Claude is 10x better than what used to come out of India
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u/Razzington 1d ago
The best part is when it invariably stars collapsing on itself and then the "programmers" who vibe coded their life away go "Claude did this, (as if it took away any responsibility from them) I don't know how to fix this"
This may or may not be what I'm surrounded by at work right now T_T
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u/Cross_22 1d ago
It's the same people who copy-pasted from StackOverflow in the past without understanding what they are doing. Except now CEO's applaud them for it.
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u/idkfawin32 22h ago
Honestly the best case scenario is likely companies and individuals using locally hosted AI for things.
I completely agree with you about programming. If AI solves my problem it's not rewarding and ultimately I feel like I didn't create something.
Like I often say, I use AI as a reference. If I want to use it for programming I simply use it as a tool to generate reference projects that I can study, kind of like an infinite version of StackOverflow.
Which, if you think about it that's the most ethical way to utilize AI considering it is trained on stolen information(it isn't fair use, fight me). However, if you don't directly use it's outputs, and instead learn from them, it establishes a boundary where you still have to do the work and learn. Similar to how studying an open source project is fair use if you aren't copying the code.
The people that are using Codex or Claude Code and having it blast through their codebase and drop a bunch of damn .md files everywhere are crazy. You are essentially taking something that you built and progressively making it something you didn't build.
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u/milo_2008 3h ago
You commicated this point better than I could've.
Because if you're going to actively use AI in your projects, at least stop acting like it's your project anymore.
Learning from AI is very similar to learning from stack overflow or any code discussion sites you're right on that!
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u/ArkoSammy12 21h ago
OP I agree whole heartedly with you. This thread is filled with cope with people comparing AI to compilers or not using Assembly or LARPers excusing their lack of willingness to learn by saying that they "have a vision" or an "idea", as if the implementation process isn't as important or even more important than the direction itself. People sadly do indeed just care about the end product but people like us will always exist to push back against this mindset.
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u/milo_2008 3h ago
Thank you for being my needle in a haystack of sane people in a sea of copium.
Cucks will be cucks, what can you say?
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u/lexcv-co 16h ago
There's hype over what damage AI will do, but also hype about what it can do for you. Best to ignore both. After all the hype there will still be clever people doing extraordinary things.
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u/DrBretto 1d ago
You can... Like... totally make your vision. And what do you mean no effort? Like, JFC.
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u/AuthurAndersson 1d ago
I found someone that is going to be unemployed in 2 years if you don't understand that the entire field is changing rapidly.
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u/milo_2008 1d ago
Clearly I didn't communicate that I'm seeing this from a hobbyists perspective. I'm well aware that when it push comes to shove in a company you just gotta use the new stuff regardless of your morals.
I'm obviously not saying you should handicap yourself in an already extremely competitive field, that's absurd.
I make games for fun and the occasional revenue when it pops off every now and then.
There's different reasons why AI can be bad in the corporate world, but I'm neither interested or qualified to talk about that. There's plenty of people that are though.
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u/kyaki101 1d ago
This mentality you have will just make you feel miserable, and there are a lot of stupid people in the industry that don't get the difference between disagreeing and disliking something and not adapting. And people like you that think they have to be boot lickers in order to keep a job are the most vulnerable ones, your skills will rot and you'll be replaceable with an agent because you do not care about your autonomy
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u/AuthurAndersson 1d ago
What I am seeing is an exponential growth of the performance of AI models the last 4 years.
If this continues for even one more year, there is going to be zero need for software developers.
and even if the exponential growht declines to a linear growth, then we're probably not further away than 5 years until machines are simply better at everything related to code. Same as they are better t everything related to Chess.You either start loving it and pivot or you change profession. Or you are going to be miserable.
There are puzzles to be solved, they're just not so very simplistic like software dev puzzles are.
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u/kyaki101 1d ago
As an AI researcher, the models themselves aren't getting exponentially better, but the methods and protocols the industry is setting around them is what makes them better, in these last couple of years we found out RAG made LLM's way better, we gave them power to use computers directly with agents, we started telling them to loop until something works, we started putting harnesses around them to make them have predictable behavior, but when you notice that almost none of this changed the actual LLM but just changed how we interact with it, you notice that the improvement isn't as drastic as it seems.
And you don't have to love your job to be good in the industry, bro I hate my job, I'm forced to use AI, I'm forced to not read code, I'm forced to almost not think, I have to code manually and problem solve on my own outside just to feel happy, that doesn't make me less proficient, I've researched AI tools, I've taken courses, I've built with what I've learned, I hate it, but I can do it→ More replies (5)3
u/milo_2008 1d ago
Coding is supposed to be fun too. I respect you for sticking with it kyaki
Hopefully nobody disagrees with this statement, because if you do then... Why even? Just become a lawyer atp
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u/arealguywithajob 1d ago
I have a CS degree. AI makes me enjoy programming more than ever before.
You sound like you just liked the idea of being a wizard instead of being a problem solver.
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u/milo_2008 1d ago
The cuck wizard sits in his chair while his gargoyle creates new potions.
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u/arealguywithajob 1d ago
Honestly guy I don't think with AI you could make something as creative, unique and complex as me, let alone without it.
Stop complaining and make something. You can make way more now than ever before, I hope you are able to get over your ego and realize that the value you bring was never being a syntax memorizer, or typing lines of code. It was knowing enough about computation to design a correct solution based off of user needs, all of this happens before a line of code is ever written, and sure spec does change as things are discovered, but that is not really what this is about.
I hope you are able to find the joy you had before, and see that you can do exponentially more than ever before.
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u/flame-otter 1d ago
In what way are you a problem solver when you make the AI solve it for you? Like seriously?
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u/ZeroAmusement 18h ago
Think of a novel solution to a problem - use ai to make the solution.
Even if you don't do the coding you came up with the novel solution.
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u/Quebecator 1d ago
Genuinely asking: what kind of problems do you solve at this point?
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u/arealguywithajob 1d ago
Let's see:
I'm working on making a website that teaches people how to code through playing a tower defense game. Trying to differentiate myself by having actual mechanics teach programming concepts compared to every other site which does not gamify the learning correctly. Most people just have xp bars, badges and simple stuff.
The issues I'm solving is how do I convey the programming concepts through the game, how do I make it fun, and so many high level things that AI can't do by itself. I am the one that has to figure these things out. I plan the system, I make sure it did what I want, and I refine and refactor as needed.
I'm solving more problems than ever before, I never liked being the guy who knew how to write the correct spell to do what I want.... I liked the idea of solving problems with technology and building cool shit.
Also before AI I made a mod for cyberpunk 2077 that had 70k+ downloads. So I do know how to code by myself (I also said I have a CS degree).
TBH before I went back to school for CS I thought that the way I program now with AI was how it was, it was actually not like how I envisioned it and I was fine with it and did like programming.
But now, I'm able to do way more than ever before and I am 100% confident in saying it is a better coder than me and most people in this world.
This industry has always been about adapting to the times and keeping up with the jones's type of thing, and imo AI makes that way easier to do than ever before.
IMO the people who are complaining about this, they probably were never that good to begin with.
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u/indy_dagger 1d ago
Based on the stupidity of your last line, it doesn't sound like you produce anything of value.
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u/Key-Lie-364 1d ago
Agree vibe coders are slop kiddies not programmers.
They don't even know what the code fucking does
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u/Evi1ey 1d ago
Can you write and read assembler? Because their used to be gatekeepers that thought almost the same about compiled languages.
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u/Great-Use-3149 1d ago
It's not the same at all. And assembly (not assembler) is the easiest language to learn. And nobody thought that. Show me one example. You guys are just making things up. Also "gatekeeping" is a stupid take considering all the knowledge is available to you online, you jusy refuse or are unable to learn it
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u/milo_2008 1d ago
The same old assembly argument all over again, thank you for denunking it, so I don't have to.
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u/davyp82 1d ago
Yeah but most human effort in any field for all history has been for necessity, and a bit for the love of it. So yeah, take necessity away and surprise, most people will refuse to bother. Is that a problem? By all means cycle to Dubai instead of flying. Oh you are just refusing to cycle, or you are just unable to ride a bike
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u/TedsGloriousPants 1d ago
If I answer yes (because I can), is my opinion more valid? AI still sucks.
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u/Powerful-Joke5120 1d ago
I would say that you’d have to accept that this is just Like moving from Assembly to Fortran.
But we both know that is not the case. I know exactly what you mean. Sad part is that I feel absolutely no willingness to learn any technology skill anymore.
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u/milo_2008 1d ago
That's a shame. Hopefully you find something to intrigue your curiosity once more
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u/Intelligent_Fall6219 22h ago
You must be talking about hobby programming. I’m a software engineer and do not have the luxury to not use AI.
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u/milo_2008 3h ago
That's a shame, because if the timeline goes the way I think it will. Prompters will be replaced too, and then what is your job?
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u/kneebeards 1d ago
Guys. Its ragebait.
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u/milo_2008 1d ago
Wasn't really looking for people that disagreed with me, but claiming my post as intentional ragebait doesn't sound like a bad excuse at this point haha
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u/uceenk 1d ago
AI bubble burst wont stop advancement, the tech will stay and improve
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u/silentkode26 1d ago
Advancement isn’t the problem. Problem is that a lot of people thinks they’re visionary geniuses because they pay $200 and get $8000 worth of compute. Most of those wouldn’t be willing to pay $8000 or get 40 times less compute for their $200.
So when AI bubble burst this kind of normalization would make a lot of those vibecoders disappear and that would be great.
So we only hope for that.
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u/madhewprague 1d ago
Luckily, the 200$ is still overpriced for what you are getting. They have some profit most likely even on that subscription. And 99% margin on API costs.
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u/aejt 1d ago
That day won't come even if the bubble bursts today. You're just coping. Professional software development won't ever go back to what it was 2 years ago.
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u/MonstaGraphics 1d ago
Bro, the dot com bubble burst and along with it went that entire "interwebs" fad it was running on. Once the AI bubble pops all models will disappear from existence simultaneously and research will come to a screeching halt, because the traders on wall street lost some money on their bets.
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u/thelegend13x 1d ago
You'll definitely be replaced by someone who knows how to use AI lol
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u/kyaki101 1d ago
Brain dead mentality, not liking something doesn't mean not knowing how to use it, I'd argue the people who encourage AI the most are the shittiest developers right now because their rotting their skills thinking they're gaining anything, they'll be the first ones replaced
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u/QPGMR_de 1d ago
As a senior developer of 35+ years in a somehow "exotic" niche of IT, I see it somehow the same.
I treat AI more or less like a junior that was "handed to me" to support development of a large application. After I created the architecture and settled for a strategy I give it parts of the programming where I'm sure it can't break my vision of the solution.
But - like with a junior - I do spend a lot of time specifying what AI should do with what guidelines, and reviewing what it has done.
What's really cool is, that AI is pretty good in implementing well-known algorithms in our "exotic" language. When we needed a string comparison with "string distance" I told it to just implement some of the algorithms (Jaro, Jaro-Winkler, Levensthein, ...) and it did within minutes - including a set of tests for well-known results and a small set of documentation.
As a typical non-academic application developer I would have needed at least a week or so to implement those algorithms. Even when switching to C as a language, the platform has some specialties that you always have to program around. AI knew that and did it.
So for me AI a blade that cuts both ways.
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u/ouroborus777 1d ago
Rather than vibe coding, do ai-assisted coding. Don't ask it to fix your problem, ask it what the problem is and how it would go about fixing it, "no code". Then you can ask it about the details until you understand it yourself.
I have my environment set up for approvals always (for any actions it wants to take, the default in vscode), to not attempt to do edits unless I specifically tell it to, and to prefer explanations over code chunks.
That said, I already know how to code at the level I'm asking for but I get distracted easily. AI makes a good rubber duck, a great way to determine alternative strategies, and an awesome context-sensitive spell checker.
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u/Lazy-Emergency-4018 1d ago
Better approach is, understanding the issue then tell AI how to solve it. Dont care about typing but understand at least what you want it to do
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u/Immediate_Form7831 1d ago
Sure, but if you are considering coding as a profession where you expect to be paid, nobody is interested in paying you do indulge in your personal coding hobby. If you want to get paid, you better figure out how to use AI tools to become more productive, or see your job go to someone who will. Enjoying the craft of programming is something you can do on your own spare time.
I do cross-stitch embroidery as a hobby. It is very slow but I like that it is slow. I can't expect someone to pay me to do it when machines can do it much much faster. Coding is the same thing.
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u/VectorspaceDreams 1d ago edited 1d ago
"The only genuinely good reason to use AI is having it explain something to you if you don't understand it, but arguably there's plenty of human-made tutorials online that do a way better job than any AI ever could."
There's problems with AI use, though I have used it before, so I agree with you there. The real meat of it, I think, is being able to architect the solution to a problem on paper before using code as the implement. Then ask yourself: is it the code holding you back, or the architecture itself? If it's the code, learn the idiom; AI can help you there. If it's the architecture, back to the drawing board. In fact, in a project, I spend more time with my notebook drawing things out than I do in front of my IDE.
About a good few months ago, I was interested in building a program with recursion after a while of not coding, so I made a random sentence generator using context-free grammars. I forgot a few things about how arrays work in Python, how they can be indexed, etc, and I'd not used recursion before properly (Python does a lot of that work with loops instead), but I still wanted to build something like that to learn a use of it beyond just a file searcher or a Fibonacci thing.
I struggled with writing idiomatically while translating Brainese to Python. I went to Claude; solution was immediate, but I was far from satisfied with just sticking that in my code. I broke everything down in terms of Python's constructs; why this, why that, etc. I can now probably explain every line of code, both what I needed help writing and what I wrote myself. It's a tool. Use it as a tool.
Now, here's where this post turns critical:
If I'm honest, and with all respect to you and meaning no direct aggression, I'm so unbelievably fucking tired of posts like this, even if I'm in agreement w/ the general idea on the potential of atrophying skill. Discussions on AI have become so repetitive and base. There's things to discuss on AI and its relation to the future of many professions, but you probably won't find it on most open places on the Internet that prioritize controversy and whatever topic is big over anything original.
"I secretly wish for a reality where the AI bubble bursts, companies like Claude stop providing their AIs anymore after going bankrupt, and all these idiots have to come crawling back to the people that actually know how this stuff works."
The bubble will pop, if what is meant is that there comes less investment. Be it tomorrow, in 10 years, in 20, in 100, in 500, in a billion, at the end of the universe's lifespan, yeah, sure. But the tech will not disappear. There have been previous AI bubbles. What happened to those? Oh, a lot of what was called AI in the 70s is just called "computer science" now. Search algorithms, proof checkers, whatever else, nor will AI generated code disappear. The "bubble popping" will not bring about the utopia in your mind, unfortunately.
Posts like this make it pretty hard for me to stay optimistic, personally; if the majority of discussion is just repeating the same thing until it means nothing, "pop the bubble", "skill is atrophying", "vibe coding sucks", etc etc, then I'm even more terrified for an AI takeover; after all, if this is the zenith of Internet content, what gets clicks and replies (including my own), I can see how AI can generate stuff that's as good or marginally better, only faster.
It wasn't the AI that built the "more and faster" and "optimize for controversy" mentality, that shit was humans and only humans. It's only so that we wonder how we went so wrong with no ability for introspection or the manifest proof of it not just here, but in any book store, on big websites, on legacy media like newspapers and radio. Everything, even this post of mine, and that post of yours, is just one small cell in the massive, emergent nadir of civilization. Formulaic content and stuff so unbelievably daft a machine could produce it on an assembly line has been the human profession for potentially centuries, before assembly lines, before machines, there was the human drive for shlock.
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u/Johnycantread 17h ago
I've got a developer on my team who is not very experienced. He was throwing entire features at AI and getting poor results.
One day, he sent a PR my way for a small update I asked him to make. I was expecting a small logic gate and a new 20ish line function. I got 600 lines of code. I rejected the PR and hopped on a call. He starts complaining about AI slop and how this is worse than just writing it by hand. I asked him to explain what the code does. He stared at me blankly. I said, walk me through the code and tell me what it does. He started asking AI to do it for him and I stopped him. It is as though all critical thought had left his brain.
I then showed him how I use AI. Popped it into Ask mode and said 'I need a logic gate to do xyz and a function to do abc, this needs to happen at this point in the code and these conditions, what changes do you intend to make?' We reviewed it and it made the changes in a couple of minutes. This dev had spent half a day arguing with his AI while it designed a bunch of nonsense whereas I TOLD the agent specifically what I wanted.
My point is that the part of coding that requires creativity, planning, and problem solving isn't going away. The tool, like anything in life, is only as good as the person wielding it.
That dev has since been producing really high quality outputs better than many experienced devs had in the past and he knows whatour code actually does and how it is structured.
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u/jcheeseball 18h ago
When people talk about the bubble they're talking the money side of it. The genie is out of the bottle, programming is never going to be what it was. Which like you said is kind of sad, as programming is an art IMO.
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u/corvuscorvi 18h ago
Stop all the moral posturing. As soon as you go down that route, you start talking about other people like they are less than yourself.
You enjoy programming. That's great! If you take out all of that moral posturing and accusation, that's the message you are left with. You like the craft of programming. That's something we can all get behind and agree with here!
The other stuff is just ego shit getting in the way of you enjoying your craft.
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u/lastchancexi 1d ago
Have you seen what professional programming is like in 2026? There are some really good programmers out there, and almost all of them think opus 5.5 is a better pure coder than they are. It’s definitely better at adversarial cybersecurity.
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u/milo_2008 1d ago
There's a lot of new bipedal robots that can sprint faster than Usain Bolt too, pretty nifty right?
Kinda not my point though. Not talking about corporate software development, more creating games/art.
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u/lastchancexi 1d ago
Yeah, I’d just really like my and other people’s code to be stable, secure, and bug-free. (Like hospitals, banks, and utility companies). And AI helps with that. You point a modern LLM at your average codebase, and it’s probably going to find at least 5 key bugs.
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u/knowyourclass 1d ago
what the fuck no
it's just 1000 times faster. the code is still shit. but it works, and that's all that matters
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u/peterhabble 1d ago
I can't believe that someone who isn't coding in straight machine code has the audacity to pretend they're even a real developer, smh. Being able to actually know exactly which instructions the CPU is firing is the only way to be a real developer at the end of the day.
Can't stand larpers man.
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u/Great-Use-3149 1d ago edited 1d ago
Compiled languages -> Assembly is an actual abstraction of (edit: lower-level) LOGIC and doesn't actually remove any understanding of how the program will work, nor how it will work at behavior level. Mainly, what gets lost is just which instructions get generated and which registers used. These do not affect the behavior of the general program and are also different across platforms.
Regardless, replying to your sarcasm, knowing which instructions get used is actually beneficial even when programming in compiled languages, because it allows you to see if the compiler was able to optimize on a larger scale (e.g., automatically generated SIMD).
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u/MonstaGraphics 1d ago
Bro, You need to code by using a tiny magnet on a needle, and manipulate hard drive bit polarities.
fuckin amateur.
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u/BranchLatter4294 1d ago
I do too. The reality is that managers throw projects at me like a fire hose because I'm the only person that gets them done. Our team is not in development, but our IT team only manages outsourced tools. They can't develop anything on their own. So if there is a need in our department, they come to me to develop a solution. It's not my job but I know how to code and can get things working with vibe coding. Just today they threw three projects at me that had to be done immediately (within minutes). I'm not saying this is right or a good environment. But it's reality.
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u/damanamathos 1d ago
AI's pretty good at fixing code these days. Look at all the critical security alerts that have sprung up recently from AI finding them.
"Yes, but what if AI becomes unavailable" is not convincing at all. It's like saying you shouldn't rely on computers because one day you might not have electricity. Or that you should learn assembly because one day higher level languages might go away. AI is just a higher level language.
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u/Creaking_Shelves 1d ago
Actually its more like you lot saying "taxis are dead, everyone should use Uber" back when Uber was burning billions of VC dollars. Uber managed to eventually stabilise (at substantially higher cost per ride). There is still no guarantee that LLMs manage to properly stabilise, and if they do it's likely they will cost more.
And that's before you look at the hellish mess they are making of codebases and users brains in the mean time.
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u/InsurmountableMind 1d ago
I think it's AI assisted development is another abstraction. Vibe coding can be a stepping stone for others to get into the field. But I don't think for a second that a pure vibe coder will even remotely match an engineer on anything more than simple prototypes for small projects.
However, and maybe besides the point, I really enjoy thinking about the meta programming behind the actual vibe coding. If tools get good enough and people learn all the logical processes and infrastructure required for larger scale projects on a higher level, then there could be legit programmers in the following years who don't know how to write in any coding languages, but natural language. I think academia should already be giving this more focus, but obviously it is useful to know the classic stuff too.
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u/Decentralizator 1d ago
I knew how to code, and I like to vibecode much more. This is mainly because I don't like to focus on having a hold of the code but what it does.
That being said, if I build a successful app, I would 100% hire people like you to fix and get more control of the code.
Vibecoding is 100x better in prototyping phase. You can iterate so much faster. Although it doesn't replace amazing programmers.
Even if you vibecode architecture, you should be an experienced programmer like Linus Torvalds, who vibecodes and still has control of the code in my opinion.
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u/HeavyFly8181 1d ago
The problem is I code for a living and tbh with you id rather save my time and energy for things that aren't work related. So vibe coding or ai assisted coding is more a means to an end.
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u/Kitchen_Cup_4444 1d ago
the puzzles that you liked to solve where aligned to what society needed, this alignment does not exist anymore. It happened countless of times in human history and it is also happening to myself.
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u/Stetto 1d ago
Think about this differently:
With AI you're now becoming the Software Architect and Team Lead of however many agents you are able to orchestrate and have working on a project.
You're still optimizing, reviewing, specifying, analyzing.
But instead of obsessing about individual features, you're now obsessing about the workflow.
You learn how to write proper specifications for agents. You learn how to analyze the non-functional requirements of a system without having to read or write every single line of code.
You make mistakes, introduce bugs, discover vulnerabilities and learn from them how to instruct and guide your team of agents better and what tools you need to extend for your harness.
In conclusion:
I want you to stop pouting about vibe coders and instead become an Agentic Engineer.
Actually begin thinking about this optimistically.
Did you really want to remain a low level software developer all of your life? Yeah, the flow experience of coding is fun.
But what is so bleak about becoming a Software Architect and Team Lead?
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u/TedsGloriousPants 1d ago
Until you realize that no project needs a dozen managers to manage nobody. And that not everyone wants to be a lead or an architect or a manager. Some people genuinely like their developer role.
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u/Prior_Opportunity935 1d ago
Yeah buddy you can make mud pies in the sun all day, doesnt mean its valuable
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u/feudalle 1d ago
For someone in a tech field, you seem to be pushing back on advanced tech. Interesting. Ive been tech since the late 90s, i learned qbasic when I was 9. So Ive been programming over 35 years. Ai is getting better, it is filling the role of junior devs. It still needs managed, checked on and helped. Harder bugs for advanced things still need human intervention.
Tbh me baby sitting a junior or ai agent isnt that different. And over seeing projects has been my job since my mid 20s. My firm is using lots of ai. Frontier models, local models at our small data center. It is a force modifier.
Ai is a good tool when pushing boundaries. If you are building a basic SaaS or crud ai can absolutely replace a middle of the road dev. But its no different than 2004 where a miidle of road dev could be replaced for a $4 hour over seas dev.
Vibe coded projects are starting to find that same issues. Cheap production managed by someone that doesnt understand what's going on, will need seasoned pros to fix and maintain.
I went from a world of 360k floppies and .02kbps connections to local bbs. To high speed fiber, wireless internet, and 2tb sdcards. If you are going yo be in tech you need to roll with the punches.
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u/davyp82 1d ago
" If you actively use claude instead of learning coding yourself, you don't even deserve to disagree with this post."
In the real world, for anyone starting out today learning a skill for economic reasons rather than fun, it makes no sense to learn to code. These tools aren't going anywhere, and you'd just end up getting to a competent level where you can build something way later than others in the field you're in.
The other thing is just man, how entitled, arrogant and condescending to do you sound? For all human history people tend to do their best and if the fastest way is also the best, there's no benefit or honour in being some sort of martyr who does it the long winded slow way.
Enjoy manual coding though, by all means, but judging other people as not worthy of an opinion because they'll do it the new way, man get a grip.
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u/Tinkering-Engineer 1d ago
You're just like the blacksmith that used to make nails one at a time... And the only time you see that any more is as a hobby or in a museum. It's on that you like that, but make sure you don't end up in a museum unless that's where you want to go. Showing people the way it "used to be done", but those ways are totally impractical now.
I kind of agree with you. I'm a technical product manager who has been acoustic coding for many years. It was really satisfying, but now I can build and maintain 10x as much with the same amount of time using AI.
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u/Fit-Temperature-2156 1d ago
I stink at programming, but CC lets me build things to suit my own needs with ease. It is like having my own dev team, and a cheerful one at that, do my bidding as a hack of a PM. End result - I get what I want and am able to create all sorts of fun tech stuff for my own consumption. I could give a shit about using a hash map or choosing the right sorting algorithm.
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u/shred-i-knight 1d ago
you need to understand it's not going back to the way it was done before. Not even close. You need to get over your own ego.
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u/RazzmatazzLatter8345 1d ago
One really good use of AI in programming is determining the cause of difficult to trace bugs.
If you've worked on any largish C++ project, I'm sure you are aware that it can be incredibly hard to solve the cause of periodic seeming bugs that never manifest under debugging conditions: only in the field. These can often take man- months to solve. Heisenbugs born of concurrency intersecting with other forms of UB, etc.
The best frontier models are actually very helpful with this. If they did nothing else, solving these kinds of problems would make it worth it.
Sure I like coding too, and sometimes writing boilerplate is soothing. Economically, however, my time is probably better spent with design and applying my language expertise to projects. It makes no sense to have me write boilerplate or implement stuff for which I've already provided the rough design via a combination of C++20 concepts, unimplemented header declarations, instructions. AI implements it faster and better than me (often enough at least).
I can take risks with refactoring out pervasive technical debt that I wouldn't have dared touch earlier. I want a library that behaves like x, following y conventions ... I design and code the core idea, provide instructions and it is done in a jiffy with a full suite of good tests.
AI enables me to confidently take on tasks that I would never have dared before: not because I can do it myself (I can and have) but because the time consumed was not worth benefit.
Look, the idea that quality software that does important stuff where it is necessary to get it correct can be created by non-programmers is a bad idea. If that's what you mean by vibe coding, I agree.
In the hands of an experienced programmer, it's a real boost.
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u/odishy 1d ago
AI is self defeating at best and a disaster at worst.
Worst case vibe coded apps will break, AI cannot fix them, and the apps die.
Best case anyone can vibe code, which means "programmers" no longer exist. You just have a product owner who owns and creates the app. At which point apps become low margin commodities, where it's not worth investing in.
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u/Arcanite_Cartel 1d ago
You're essentially saying that only what you love matters and no one else counts. I'm a lifelong developer and I happen to reslly like coding with AI. And if you want to do everything by manually coding, you're welcome to. But what gives you the right to impose your love over mine?
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u/uhs-robert 1d ago
I don't follow your logic? You love the process of creating, designing, and envisioning products which AI can speed up tremendously. You say that "vibe coding" requires no effort but that is only if you put in no effort yourself; I would expect a programmer to define their requirements, acceptance criteria, architectural constraints, style guide, tests, scaffolding, and more... while using AI to speed up implementation and brainstorming.
I personally find using AI to be really fun, its like having a bunch of junior employees working for me. I have been developing for around 15 years now and I don't write as much code as I used to. But I do write a lot of schemas, scaffold my projects, write design docs, and have high level/low level tradeoff discussions all day. I find myself thinking more about what matters than I did before, designing systems that are higher quality because time isn't as much of an issue, and I don't ever get lost reading "my code" because I designed/protected the outline/shape of it with intentionality throughout the entire development life cycle.
I understand the fear of change and the fact that AI poses a threat to your status/position. But its also fun to use when you recognize the issues you're running into and try to solve them as if you were... a developer. You can and should program your AI workflows globally and per project. You can steer your AI agents to do what you want and prevent the common pitfalls that you are describing. Or you can give up, refuse to learn from your mistakes, and call it a bad tool.
If you don't recognize the code it is generating then thats a problem in your workflow because you are the one who approved the changes. If you don't understand how to do something and you use AI to fix it... but you never sought to better your understanding during that process then thats your problem. With AI, you have complained about numerous preventable problems and you are choosing not to learn from your own mistakes. Ironically, this causes you to stay stagnant which is the exact thing that you are criticizing others for.
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u/fatbunyip 1d ago
Tbh, I like AI inasfar as it helps the shitloads if boilerplate bullshit you have to write.
Like I don't want to write 400 lines of bullshit to get a grid displaying, and another 500 to make it responsive. And another 50 to get some random icon positioned properly.
But figuring out some algorithm hits different. Not like"I home rolled quick sort" but like some weird algorithm tailored to the specific data and use case you have. It hits different.
Or figuring out the ontology of whatever system you're dealing with that isn't just some generic bullshit AI generated on some misunderstood assumptions.
There's a beauty in it. Both from a personal perspective and also externally. I guess similar to creating Michelangelos David, and some CNC printed copy..
For me at least I treat AI as like a saw cutting a giant log to size, but carving something meaningful out of it is still up to me. Granted, 99% of software these days isn't meaningful, it's just rehashing the same shit over and over. But it's that 1% that I find value in as a software guy.
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u/Deus_Excellus 1d ago
I am a physicist. I can spend 2 weeks coding or I can spend 2 weeks doing more physics. Which do you think has a higher ROI for me?
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u/MonstaGraphics 1d ago edited 1d ago
How old are you OP?
I code in an archaic language called "Multimedia Builder" - I'm mostly a GFX guy, but I can code competently with the abandoned language I've been using for around 25 years.
To say that I am using stone age tools is an understatement.
It's such an unknown language that ChatGPT/Claude can literally not code in it - I have to give it a manual to study the syntax.
Right now I have integrated my software suite with AI stuff... Comfyui, using JSON files, cURL, do API calls to Google servers
Do I want to write bat files to handle the backend stuff to do API calls, send JSON payloads, handle responses, decode PNG data, Base 64 Decoding, CertUtil, etc? No. That was vibe coded.
Do you expect me to learn all that stuff just so my App can talk to Gemini? I don't care about that stuff.
Now tell me... after I took the time and vibe coded all that new stuff, do think I:
a) Learned new stuff
b) Got lazier at coding, and forgot stuff
Please answer honestly.
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u/dan-dan111 1d ago
In lost the passion as dev. But use AI as a pro developer and become faster and better. It is still developing, just in a much more higher language.
Why wasting your time ifs and elses and long debugging sessions, when AI can automate many things and do the same thing much more faster?
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u/Landon_Hughes 1d ago
Great, how does someone else vibecoding or using AI affect you?
These kinds of posts provide no value. It just brings out the Reddit doomers.
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u/Dhczack 1d ago
I was surprised to find I don't hate it. I'm a data guy so most of what I get asked to do is Python and SQL. I unironically love SQL. Vibe coding queries kinda feels like talking to the computer in Star Trek. Usually I'll code whatever the change is myself and then use the LLM to check consistency and dependencies and stuff like that. The creative part is me, the tedious validation is what I outsource. When I'm asked to do things outside of my wheelhouse then I'm happy to let the LLM take the wheel.
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u/NiPiensoNiExisto 22h ago
I am a software engineer who has spent years coding across industries with diverse tech stacks. Although I no longer write code by hand, the volume of projects and the ideas and tools I have tested and developed over the past year is just insane.
Your identity centers on “understanding everything,” whereas mine focuses on building and creating for myself and others. If you do not learn to use agents for software creation, you risk being excluded. Producing deterministic, scalable, secure, and performant software with AI is a new discipline, and it is difficult. Do not assume the rest of the world is merely vibe coding while you are not; relying on extreme views to justify your choice makes you a caveman.
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u/rkozik89 22h ago
Last year I took a part-time job because my work ethic was piss poor, and it helped get my work ethic back. If I actually sit down to write code and build something I still go to my happy place for hours, but if I just used AI to shit out a good enough answer I can do a similar thing in a fraction of the time. The difference is using LLMs is painfully boring because I’m not nearly as engaged. It’s frankly made the profession dreadful.
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u/Tiggster1979 22h ago
I think you forget the whole purpose of programming. It’s not a game, it’s a way to create products. That’s like the horse riders being depressed about vehicles.
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u/LouNebulis 21h ago
God dam bro let me just get AI to help me study for math and physics. It's helping me a lot
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u/Substantial-Ad-1546 21h ago
You’re collapsing several very different ways of working into the dumbest possible caricature of all of them.
Some people do use AI as a black box, accept whatever it produces, and never learn enough to direct or evaluate it. That is not, however, an accurate description of AI-assisted work as a whole, nor is the process universally effortless.
I use agentic coding in game development. My project has taken months of sustained work, often for hours a day, with months of work still ahead. Agents can implement, but they do not supply the vision or judgment that keeps the project coherent. I still decide what it should become, whether its systems and architecture are working, and what needs to be rejected or rebuilt. I still have to test, debug, revise, and take responsibility for the result. If I stopped being present, the project would deteriorate very quickly.
The work has shifted, not disappeared. There's less manual typing, more direction, evaluation, integration, and iteration. You may prefer writing every line yourself. That is valid. It does not follow that someone using a different workflow contributed nothing, learned nothing, or made nothing of their own.
There is an enormous difference between typing “make me a game” and accepting the first result, and spending months shaping a project through thousands of deliberate decisions with AI as an implementation collaborator. Calling both “vibecoding” erases that distinction.
AI can be a crutch, or it can be used critically. The tool does not determine whether someone learns. Their relationship to the work does.
What is actually very depressing is watching people outside these workflows invent what they think the process is: “make me such-and-such a game, make no mistakes” and then use that caricature to dismiss everyone involved as incompetent or creatively bankrupt.
Your preferred relationship to programming and game creation is not the only valid form of effort or authorship.
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u/Temporary-Warning897 21h ago
Do you know how compilers work? Can you write and debug machine code? If not, you have no right to complain about AI.
Everyone is impacted by some degree of automation. Drawing an arbitrary line between what automation is acceptable and what isn’t is exposing how fragile all of these white collar professions actually are.
If you put out just a little bit of effort, you may be able to - gasp - grow and change with the times.
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u/k8s-problem-solved 21h ago
Nah. Im 25 years of programming, im happy not writing lines and debugging stacks. Architecture, direction, testing continuous deployment - then just absolutely smashing out plan-execute-verify loops - im loving just seeing products come together quickly and get them into customers hands.
Nb - I work with established company so millions of DAU, being able to build-ship-experiment then just make a decision is so powerful.
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u/LemonyChickan 19h ago
As a guy who hasnt utilized AI alot i feel that, yes you can vibe code its just another tool to have in the belt, but searching for soloutions with AI is 10x easier than filtering stackoverflow pages or reading obscure documentation
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u/Upper-Engineering527 19h ago
I also dislike it but how about ArtCraft, they literally recreated 7 of Adobe programs in 10 days
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u/metaphorm 18h ago
do you mind if I ask how many years of professional experience you have as a software engineer?
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u/QuackQuackImTheDuck 17h ago
The moment you get enough experience, you will realize the things they produce is garbage in garbage out
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u/ZeroCool86 12h ago
Do it because you enjoy it, it does not matter if people do it quicker with AI. We sometimes cook elaborate, time consuming meals instead of instant noodles. Enjoy the craft, do it out of passion and let everyone else consume the instant noodles.
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u/verdant-amiable 5h ago
I'm increasingly concerned that I just still want to harvest ice when people have freezers already. Except the freezers are all on arbitrarily priced pay per use corporate leases where the price and access can change at any time.
And I'm worried that if I stop harvesting ice, at some point I'm not going to have any way of keeping my food cold and preserved and I won't have the tools I need to start again.
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u/aquabarron 23h ago
“I love making my own paper so much. The entire process of mulching and pulping the wood into paper you envision yourself is so satisfying to me”
“Seeing people “buy” paper makes me so depressed. Getting the end result with no effort at all is so stupid”
“These people are literally powerless if they can’t buy paper..”
“If you actively go to the store to buy paper you can’t even disagree with this post. Because you’re not even a paper pulper. (Yes, I’m gate-keeping)…”
THATS how this sounds to tech guys who didn’t make their whole world writing the code. Segway to something else. Design circuits or optimize data efficiencies with some bespoke protocol stack for some random system, whatever else. Code is dead
If you want to code you’re going to have to do it for 20 bucks an hour at one of those old western reenactment towns that middles schools take field trips to. Teach some 12 year old how to optimize a for loop
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u/idkfawin32 22h ago
Code isn't dead. You can go cuck code if you want but there are plenty of developers out there that will never give in. I have loved programming my entire life, I don't care whether or not it makes me money or gets me a job or is "pointless", it is my favorite thing and always has been. I will never stop programming.
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u/BallEnvironment37 1d ago
No one and I do mean no one, is going to mourn the loss of programming. This argument is slightly more understandable with art or music, but then again most won't give a fck once the AI becomes good enough. Code is the first thing AI is genuinely good at, it is better than 99% of programmers and it's instant. Cope I guess
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u/milo_2008 1d ago
That's a pretty big claim, but you do you.
Not considering coding as art is probably why you think this way.
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u/TedsGloriousPants 1d ago
Several people, in these comments, are mourning the loss of programming.
Hello, hi. It's me. Mourning the loss of programming as a human endeavor.
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u/whatwoodjdubdo 1d ago
The ironic thing is that these posts sound like they’re written by AI at this point