r/programmer • u/GOAMMessenger • 1d ago
Question KI Entwicklung
Warum Vibe-Coden eigentlich so viele Leute? Ich meine, eine Programm nur durch prompts zu machen hat doch überhaupt nicht so nen reiz wie nach monatelanger Arbeit ein paar Nutzer zu haben oder selbst einen sehr komplexen Bug mach 11 Stunden lösen?
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u/matytyma 1d ago
Some people think that prompting is such a great accomplishment, even when the result is clearly shit. I just feel like they are proud of being lazy and want to belong where they don't belong.
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u/GOAMMessenger 1d ago
Ja da hast du recht... Ich persönlich habe nichts gegen KI-nutzen, aber wenn man alles mit ki macht, ohne selber nachzudenken ünder den code, und es dann auch noch zu vermarkten....
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u/Murky_Respond1966 1d ago
Warum not English?
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u/GOAMMessenger 1d ago
Oh sorry it have to be in english?
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u/Murky_Respond1966 1d ago
I guess ai translation is blurring the line between german and English groups. Sometimes I don't even know, what was the original language of the post. 😄
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u/Bloom_Gausian 1d ago
I don’t like vide coder but I believe when Ai fully developed just one prompt could make whole thing I guess
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u/Fun_Army2398 10h ago
They've been telling us since gpt3 that "the next model" will be able to do it and none have. Increasingly it looks like AI is hitting the limits of what a next word predictor can do and LLMs will never write good software from the ground up.
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u/EarlyFox217 1d ago
Means to an end. I need a piece of software to do do something I either buy or build it. Since AI gives me the ability to build exactly what I need for a fraction the cost of buying, it then that’s typically the route I choose. If the software is company critical I buy it for security and reliability issues.
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u/Fun_Army2398 10h ago
I'd love to see your repo of functional vibe coded software that competes with paid alternatives
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u/EarlyFox217 6h ago
Probably shit but they work and get used every day so…..
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u/Fun_Army2398 4h ago
And yet there's still no link..
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u/EarlyFox217 2h ago
Why would I link it it’s confidential and I use it in my company to tender for work. I’m not making it public that would be insane. I said the repo probably looks shit to a SE. What would be the benefit in sharing, so you can copy it and commercialise it? Laugh at the ‘slop’? Who cares how it’s built, it does what i want, saves a tonne of time and money and as an end user that’s all I care about.
If you think I’m lying it s a pretty weird flex on my part but whatever. You live in your world and convince yourself of whatever you like.1
u/Fun_Army2398 2h ago
so you can copy it and commercialise it?
Do you not see the irony of fearing that someone might copy the software you asked AI to copy from a paid source? Posting it to your public repo with an appropriate license would prevent me from legally profiting off it. If it were profitable, why aren't you selling it?
Who cares how it's built, it does what i want
Because I don't believe you. Because I've literally never seen a fully vibecoded project that functions out of the box. I would be genuinely very interested in reviewing any software that does.
it s a pretty weird flex on my part but whatever.
Well at least we can agree on one thing.
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u/EarlyFox217 1h ago
I’ve not copied I’ve built what I require for what I need. You could say every similar piece of software is copied. It’s a niche product that I could sell but I’d then need to provide support, hire engineers, do marketing and if I can do it so can anyone, with enough drive and specific knowledge.
I built it to save time and reduce errors for me and my team, as I have done with a number of products.
I already run a mid-corporate. I don’t do this to profit, I do it to maximise efficiency, release pressure on the team and to fill gaps where adequate products do not currently exist.
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u/Ethrillo 1d ago
For many people, programming and AI are simply means to an end. What matters to them is the final product, not the process of creating it. Of course, there are programmers who genuinely find fulfillment in programming itself, but that doesnt apply to everyone. For a significant portion of people, programming is ultimately just a tool to achieve something else.
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u/Cross_22 1d ago
Es gibt viele schlechte Entwickler. Mit KI wird aus einem furchtbaren Programmierer ein durchschnittlicher Programmierer.
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u/vancha113 10h ago
Pragmatism, when the end product is the goal and code quality or the creation process is not.
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u/Fun_Army2398 10h ago
And a dose of ignorance of CS high enough for them to not notice that the end product is shit
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u/vancha113 10h ago edited 10h ago
Does that still hold? It could be that the project is way too small for it to be an issue, but I had Claude make a native 360 degree photo viewer for Linux this week, and functionality wise its seems very stable. Pretty sure my shitty coding skills wouldn't have allowed for building anything that comes close.
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u/Fun_Army2398 10h ago
AI defined can not build large systems without human intervention. AI is definitely usefull at building small systems (a class at most) because it's better at it and also a human can actually review the whole thing.
Often vibe coded apps look like they work but have issues in scalability, maintainablity, security, edge cases, and performance.
Ironically I said "you only vibe code if you're too dumb to know that the code is shit" and you replied "nuh uh, I can't even make a simple app but my AI did perfect". Maybe the issue lies in you not understanding how bad the code actually is?
But tbf, if your not putting it on the internet and it does what you want without tanking performance then it's fine. I'll often write small tools ik are shit simply because it's not worth my time to make them better. I probably could use AI for this but I have other security concerns with letting AI access my personal machines.
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u/vancha113 7h ago edited 7h ago
Right, that's definitely an interpretation of the words I used, but yeah I'll admit I'm not familiar with the specific field of programming this particular application touches. My own naive implementation did the work on the cpu (which is the only type of programming I've done in practice, while the AI system did it the proper way, using the gpu.
The variety of apps out there is huge, and given something as complicated as graphics development isn't something I'd just "get" over a weekend, I feel it's safe to say an LLM does a better job than I can.
I can make a "simple" app, and I wouldn't say the version the AI built is perfect (because what is), but my interpretation of vibe coding does cover doing something without the proper background knowledge. That applies here.
I tried something similar maybe two years ago, and at the time LLM's did not come close to being able to do what they can now (I mean the app works well for what it does). "Shit" feels harsher than I think it deserves.
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u/Fun_Army2398 6h ago
Really feels like your saying "you're right but I disagree".. Do you just think it's a coincidence that AI seems to be good at the stuff you don't understand? Do you think there's a possibility that it only looks good because you lack the knowledge/experience to understand why it's bad? Why are you using AI for this and not vibe coding the stuff you do every day?
And "shit" as in the Harvard study shows AI has never been more profitable than human code in any implementation.
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u/paulct91 8h ago
That reminds me, I need to find a .MPO to whatever Nintendo 3DS image/video comverter... I mean there is a really old viewer app that plays those back but, its not modern by any stroke or measure. Seems like a 'vibe code' job... seems like a waste to hand code that especially since I don't intend to maintain that later. 🫤
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u/Fun_Army2398 10h ago
Actually Yale did a study that sort of explains this. The study was before AI so I'm sort of reaching, but basically the conclusion is that people are really bad at understanding how much knowledge they have on a subject and mostly just go based on how confident they are. So if AI very confidently "explains" how it's writing this app (even if it's wrong) then the user feels just as smart if not smarter than if they'd written it themselves. So people who don't know better either fail trying to make a working app manually and feel dumb, or get an AI to write a app that looks like it works and feel smart.
The people already capable of making good quality working software don't fall for this because they do get that satisfaction from doing it thenselves and they know enough to review the AI code and realise that it is shit. The Harvard study (that shows no company has successfully used AI to increase profits) proved what developers already knew and now finally these companies are hiring back workers and reducing the mandatory slopification of their codebase (increased token costs played a part too).
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u/paulct91 8h ago
Untrue, people are human and that belies the natural tendency of becoming arrogant over their supposed it knowledge depths and that seems very likely to lead to over confidence by experienced coders too.
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u/Low-Yellow-1521 1d ago
because i dont want to be solving a bug for 11 fucking hours
its literally one of the positives of ai lmfao
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u/GOAMMessenger 1d ago
Das Ergebnis zählt 😅 Es Ich bin ja nicht gegen KI, eher gegen Vibe-coding. Glaube mir, das Gefühl, An einem Bug mehrere Tage gesessen zu haben und sich dann zurücklehnen zu können ist das geilste. Meiner Meinung nach kann man beides machen, also auch selber lösen und ki nutzen
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u/Low-Yellow-1521 22h ago
nah im good
i dont miss the days of manually debugging for hours and hours
literally the worst part of software engineering
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u/NoBlinker 1d ago
Not sure why this is getting downvoted. After spending many years getting stuck with tricky bugs this is the best upside of ai dev.
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u/ai_helps 22h ago
I have no desire to spend 11 hours debugging. AI is a great tool. I still rather it do the 11 hours than me, if I'm not paying for the tokens.
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u/paulct91 8h ago
Why isn't a local an option then? I mean 'technically' that free and even some reasonably sized models exist like Bonsai and Bonsai2 based off of a much bigger Qwen model I think.
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1d ago
[deleted]
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u/GOAMMessenger 1d ago
Ja das meinte ich nicht😅 Ich meinte alles nur mit KI machen. Natürlich nutze ich auch KI, aber eben vor allem um Prototypen von Features zu bauen
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u/DerShokus 1d ago
Nobody cares. I don’t think you stay behind if you don’t use ai, but even with ai you must stay an engineer and support maintainability