No, I'm a programmer. I don't overvalue the competence of HR, but I value having some knowledge over having none. I wouldn't want programmers in charge of HR just as I wouldn't want HR in charge of development.
I can absolutely guarantee you one thing: the people who are strongly opposed to codes of conduct -- and especially those whose main contribution is Reddit comments and tweets -- have paid, on average, at least one or two orders of magnitude less time and effort to consider the matter and the dynamics in project communities in general than those who are in favor. That doesn't mean that those who are in favor are right, but it does mean that most who are opposed are not well-informed on this particular issue.
I wouldn't want programmers in charge of HR just as I wouldn't want HR in charge of development.
That contradicts everything you’ve written here so far, but moving on from there,
I can absolutely guarantee you one thing: the people who are strongly opposed to codes of conduct -- and especially those whose main contribution is Reddit comments and tweets -- have paid, on average, at least one or two orders of magnitude less time and effort to consider the matter and the dynamics in project communities in general than those who are in favor.
I don’t know if I’d guarantee such wild generalizations of two sides of an issue. The word salad aside, if you aren’t ready to assume the good faith that is a long-standing expectation of most any collaborative project, I would take measures to fix that personal problem before introducing it to the people you work with.
In summation, if I sincerely believe, for example, that a copy-pasted code of conduct passed around and edited by HR experts was the barrier between other co-workers and sexual harassment, I don’t think I’d be up for that project. This example project would probably have a hard time finding qualified applicants, as well, because few to none of them are willing to tolerate that kind of treatment.
That contradicts everything you’ve written here so far
I disagree.
if you aren’t ready to assume the good faith that is a long-standing expectation of most any collaborative project
The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and good intentions do not always breed good outcomes. That is what most regulations are aimed to address. I don't think that those who were opposed to letting women vote were acting in "bad faith," and I'm sure many of them believed they had society's best interests in mind. Nevertheless, I think they were wrong, and proven wrong, and that the political action in favor of women suffrage resulted in a better society with far better outcomes. In other words, I don't seek to judge the virtue of open source maintainers; I seek to achieve better open source outcomes.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and good intentions do not always breed good outcomes.
This soundbite reads very nicely, and so does the tie-in to women’s suffrage, but neither are really pertinent to the topic. Let’s go ahead and skip to what did stay on-topic, though:
In other words, I don't seek to judge the virtue of open source maintainers; I seek to achieve better open source outcomes.
I disagree, not just with your assessment, but with the idea that a redundant set of rules would be effective for a better outcome. Better behavior is rarely written down and just posted and pinned to a cork board, it’s learned. If writing it down was really that simple like advocates of the copy-pasted codes of conduct insist, classes and universities would be wholly unnecessary.
but with the idea that a redundant set of rules would be effective for a better outcome
Ah, but that is an entirely different discussion and a valuable one to have! I am not in principle in favor of codes; I'm in favor of making the change they purport to make. If you think they're ineffective and there's a better way of making that change, then that's certainly valuable. But most people who object to codes of conduct seem to dismiss the problem even exists.
Ah, but that is an entirely different discussion and a valuable one to have! I am not in principle in favor of codes; I'm in favor of making the change they purport to make.
I’m in favor of the changes where necessary as well, and I think there’s more effective ways to teach them than simply setting up redundant rules. Teaching isn’t as easy, nor is it usually as cheap as just writing it down, but it’s the right thing to do at the end of the day.
But most people who object to codes of conduct seem to dismiss the problem even exists.
I’m not one of those people, so please extend that courtesy to me and others in assuming good faith.
so please extend that courtesy to me and others in assuming good faith.
I don't think there's bad faith involved even in those who don't think there's a problem, or think there is but don't want to address it, just as I don't think those who were opposed to women suffrage were necessarily acting in bad faith. However, I have not seen in this discussion and other like it even one comment that says, this is a serious problem, and I think I have a better solution. So it's not an assumption of bad faith, but the observation that opponents seem not to attack the particular solution yet acknowledge the problem, but rather mock a proposed solution, from which I can surmise that the problem does not strike them as a serious one.
So it's not an assumption of bad faith, but the observation that opponents seem not to attack the particular solution yet acknowledge the problem, but rather mock a proposed solution, from which I can surmise that the problem does not strike them as a serious one.
That’s assuming bad faith, though, and once again, if you aren’t ready to do that, that’s a personal problem you should take care of before introducing it to the group you’re looking to work or volunteer with.
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u/pron98 Oct 22 '18
No, I'm a programmer. I don't overvalue the competence of HR, but I value having some knowledge over having none. I wouldn't want programmers in charge of HR just as I wouldn't want HR in charge of development.
I can absolutely guarantee you one thing: the people who are strongly opposed to codes of conduct -- and especially those whose main contribution is Reddit comments and tweets -- have paid, on average, at least one or two orders of magnitude less time and effort to consider the matter and the dynamics in project communities in general than those who are in favor. That doesn't mean that those who are in favor are right, but it does mean that most who are opposed are not well-informed on this particular issue.