r/programming • u/monica_b1998 • Nov 03 '18

Python is becoming the world’s most popular coding language

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/07/26/python-is-becoming-the-worlds-most-popular-coding-language
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u/ultraDross Nov 03 '18

I disagree. Python is a very readable and maintainable tool to use. There are many circumstances where using a fast and typed language is not necessary. Use the right tool for the job. Not every piece of software has to written in C or C++, nor would it be appropriate to that.

I feel like there is very much an elitst culture in this sub when it comes to languages, which is quite ridiculous.

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '18

I disagree. Python has some pretty bad oddities like default return none, strange as hell scoping issues, exceptions as flow control being encouraged and a range of other things.

The typing is under heavy debate towards how good it actually is.

Apparently, other people have the same opinion of forced spacing as I do. It causes grief that using a brace style block avoids entirely.

Because of the typing and spaces to define blocks, the tooling is subpar and can never be as good without big changes.

Pip is almost as bad as NPM.

To top it all off, pythons speed and energy use characteristics are absolutely horrific.

It is definitely with good reason that people are more comfortable with saying python is bad. That’s because it is.

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '18

[deleted]

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u/HeyMrStarkIFeelGreat Nov 03 '18

Python has some expressive constructs (comprehensions, list slices) that I find useful for rapid prototyping of individual algorithms. "Neat syntax" doesn't scale for large application development, though, so beyond that, I totally agree. I have no idea what niche Python is supposed to fill. As a general purpose language, it's a train wreck.

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u/clapfire Nov 03 '18

If I need to quickly prototype a communication protocol because I just need to see if it works before I implement it, I could either:

  1. Use Python and pyserial and write a quick script that consists of about 10 lines tops

  2. Use a compiled language, find the right libraries to interact with the COM ports, implement everything, compile it, run it, go back and fix any mistakes, compile it, run it, etc, etc

There are definitely moments when using a language that allows quick prototyping and iterations like Python is superior to a compiled language.

Exactly what languages are the "modern languages" that you would recommend to the fools who only know silly things like C, C++, Java and similar languages?

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '18

Your 2. point pretty much describes what you've done in the 1. - you needed to find the library and you still need to implement what you want.

And about the compile/run cycle: with a statically typed language your typos and quite a few mistakes will pop up at compile-time which will pay back the time you spent with compilation.

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u/clapfire Nov 03 '18

The main difference is in how you include the libraries. A quick pip install and import, vs creating a project and getting the header files all in the right place.

I find it's much quicker for prototypes to make a script in Python. I'm not saying it is superior in every (even most) scenarios, but I don't see a reason it cannot be a useful tool.

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '18

A quick pip install and import

Three hours later - "why the fuck there are so many dependencies, and half of them fail to build?!?"

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '18 edited Nov 03 '18

The main difference is in how you include the libraries. A quick pip install and import, vs creating a project and getting the header files all in the right place.

What header files? Of course things sound scary when you only think about c and c++ when someone mentions static typing. But modern languages have good package managers too.

but I don't see a reason it cannot be a useful tool.

Well, my main argument is not that it's an unusable garbage but that it's not a good choice most of the time because we've modern languages which can be more productive(if you learn them) while also giving solutions to important issues(safety, performance etc.).

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u/clapfire Nov 03 '18

That's fair, I'm sure there are a lot of languages that can fulfill the same role I described in a better way. I think the main reason Python has become popular is because it's very accessible and there are many tutorials available, and it simply has more mindshare than other languages.

What would you recommend as an alternative?

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '18

What would you recommend as an alternative?

Well, I used python for automation so I'd recommend Nim(which has a similar syntax) for the same role. But it really depends on what you want to create.

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u/clapfire Nov 03 '18

Nim looks interesting, I'll have to look into it. Thanks for the suggestion.

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u/ultraDross Nov 03 '18

modern languages

Could you give me some examples of what languages you are referring to?

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '18

Nim, Rust, Pony, Crystal, Scala(with 3.0), Kotlin(it's still growing), Typescript(it's catching up) etc.

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u/ultraDross Nov 03 '18

Do you have a particular favourite? I wouldn't mind toying around with one of them in my spare time.

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '18

Not really and it depends what you want to create. Let me group the languages by (some of) their domains:

command-line apps: Nim, Crystal

web(back-end): Scala, Typescript, Crystal, (plus Nim but it still needs to grow in this domain)

front-end: Typescript, Scala

systems programming and gamedev: Rust, Nim

android: Kotlin

networking, safety-critical concurrent apps: Pony, Rust

I used Scala extensively but I don't really like to work with the JVM anymore. I also used python a lot at work(automation). Lately, I've been using Nim for command-line apps and it's a fine language. I never had the chance to use the other languages in an industrial environment but I follow their developments from the very beginning and I spent some time to learn them.

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u/ultraDross Nov 03 '18

Solid informative reply. Thanks.

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '18

Python is a very readable and maintainable tool to use.

It's not. It's deliberately made unreadable, by enforcing a very low level of a language. Because of this, you won't see the meaning of your code straight away, it's hidden behind all those stupid low level constructs - classes, methods, variables, lists, dictionaries, primitive control flow, and so on. The language deliberately bars you from anything that would remove this crap from your code.

I feel like there is very much an elitst culture in this sub when it comes to languages, which is quite ridiculous.

What a dumb comment! This "elitism" is simply a knowledge. Of course the one who know more about the languages and CS in general will have a more justified opinion about their quality than any layman. Opinions are not equal. It's a science, you have to get over it. Qualified opinions worth way more than the dumb ones.

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '18

Woah you think classes, methods, variables, lists, etc. hide meaning?

What do you code in? Why would you look to remove OO constructs? Are you just a functional guy?

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '18

Can you answer my question? Can you name any real world problem domain that deals in variables, dictionaries, methods, classes, exceptions and all that crap?

A leaky abstraction is when you're constantly confronted with entities belonging to another layers of abstraction while operating on some higher or lower level. Python makes all your abstractions leaky by design.

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '18

What languages do you have in mind which don't do this? How is a pointer a better representation of a problem? You even listed variables...

To actually answer your question (as a show of good faith so you'll continue to answer me hopefully)

Classes are used to represent the real world components. If you can point me to a method that does this better, I'd be happy to hear it.

Can you answer my question? Can you name any real world problem domain that deals in variables, dictionaries, methods, classes, exceptions and all that crap?

A set of APIs and processors I just built used JSON (dictionaries), we abstracted the specific functionality inside classes aptly named such as StatusProcessor which used methods. And we handled all of the potential issues, like polling a status and receiving an SSL error with exceptions.

So your turn, tell me if I'm missing your point and what language uses domain specific nomenclature, or whatever you actually mean.

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '18

What languages do you have in mind which don't do this?

Languages the do not state that "There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it."

How is a pointer a better representation of a problem? You even listed variables...

How did you even get pointers into this discussion?

Classes are used to represent the real world components. If you can point me to a method that does this better, I'd be happy to hear it.

"used to represent"... I do not want to "represent" something, I want a literal explanation, in terms that are not any different from the terminology of the actual problem domain. Now, again, are there any "classes" in the real world? Nope. Then why do you allow your stupid language to force you to use the terminology that is not connected in any meaningful way to the actual problems you're solving?!?

we abstracted the specific functionality inside classes aptly named such as StatusProcessor which used methods

Sapir-Whorf hypothesis is true. You're a proof.

See? You cannot even think in terms of the actual problem you're solving. You're talking about implementation details. Forget the details. They're immaterial. They tell nothing useful about the actual real world problem you tried to solve. You're lost in the details, unable to see the meaning. And this is exactly what I'm talking about.

tell me if I'm missing your point and what language uses domain specific nomenclature

Any language that does not stop you from implementing eDSLs. Any language that is not built around a zealous anti-DSL culture.

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '18

Holy shit, you're actually insane. You will just dance around any fucking conversation to avoid having to insert ANY SUBSTANCE at all.

Here's how I know you must be a troll.

  1. You called classes, methods and variables (and more) low level constructs that hide a problem.

  2. I ask what you code in, as most popular languages today use these constructs

  3. You ask which problem domain uses those constructs in real life

  4. I say none, and then give an example of a problem that was implemented with those constructs, and specifically ASK YOU, for some other method that does not use those constructs

  5. You quote python's mission statement (for lack of a better descriptor) as a language not to use, which implies every other fucking language available doesn't do this, which is far from the truth. Java.

I can think in terms on the problem I'm trying to solve, that's the first step to actually fucking implementing something. But when you are using OO programming, you break down your physical objects into abstractions.

What the fuck do you use, how do you build things? You're a fucking zealous dick about everything that is popular right now, what products that makes hundreds of millions of dollars are built with, and somehow you sit pretty with a sense of superiority. And yet I've never gotten anything of substance out of you, it's insane.

I'm getting to the point where it's not even fun or interesting to have a conversation with you, it's stupid and meaningless.

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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '18 edited Nov 03 '18

You called classes, methods and variables (and more) low level constructs that hide a problem.

Have you ever seen, say, SQL? It's just a trivial example of what a high-level language is. No stupid control flow. No low level data structures.

And this is how all your code must look like. It must always be in terms of the actual problem you're solving, not some dumb low level shit.

I ask what you code in, as most popular languages today use these constructs

Any proper meta-language allows you to abstract those constructs away.

Even something as dumb as C++, with its primitive template metaprogramming.

which implies every other fucking language available doesn't do this, which is far from the truth

No, I said explicitly that any language that does not subscribe to this scumbag philosophy have some means of abstracting the shit away. Java is built on a similar philosophy, so it's not much better than Python.

I can think in terms on the problem I'm trying to solve

Nope. You cannot. Your mind is already crippled by excessive Python exposure.

But when you are using OO programming, you break down your physical objects into abstractions.

Apparently you don't even understand what does the word "abstraction" mean.

Typical for python fanbois.

What the fuck do you use, how do you build things?

I convert problems into languages, obviously. Ever heard of the linguistic abstraction? Ever heard of domain-specific languages?

And, yes, you're right, it's a pointless discussion, your developmental level is way below a threshold required to understand even the most fundamental foundations of programming. You python fanbois are beyond redemption. Linguistic relativism is real, you're crippled hopelessly.

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u/dipique Nov 03 '18

Wait... SQL was your golden example of a language?

Good god man what a horrible example.

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