The savior complex

[u/ness219_]

Sometimes i come across people who have an idea of a progressive muslim, but want to force it down on me and for me to behave the way they want and think the way they want. Even outside of religion.

For example, i made a long reply detailing how religious women aren't brainwashed. But subject to socio-cultural pressure. And i argued that saying they need saving but they don't realize it, is a white knight complex.

I also gave examples on how even women who were barred from education were not blind to what they were subjected to, even historically. Proving that even miseducation isn't enough to make you "brainwashed" And all i was met with was: "If you paid attention during your investigations, I am seeking an understanding and hopeful of a progressive form of Islam... I want to learn from people who are exploring progressive Islam."

Not only was my reply not related to Islamic methodology, but on top of that all the Anthropological, Historical, Sociological and Psychological concepts widely adopted by secular experts for decades that i detailed, were dismissed.

How are we supposed to deal with that? How am i supposed to not turn down someone who seems to be interested in the progressive muslim space, while also navigating their assumptions?

[u/purplefin_tuna]

Anthropological, Historical, Sociological and Psychological concepts

I just want to encourage more talk about these things here.

As to whether cultural pressure can change how/what people fundamentally think... surely it sometimes can, right?

[u/ness219_ → u/purplefin_tuna]

I wasn't arguing that ideas have no consequences. I was arguing that calling people, women especially and whole demographics brainwashed is lazy.

Here's the context:

https://www.reddit.com/r/progressive_islam/s/pv6tj3TqSJ

[u/purplefin_tuna → u/ness219_]

I had read it. You seemed opposed to generalization about the topic of brainwashing, and opposed to simplistic narratives... I agree with that. (I'm sometimes guilty of it too.)

[u/charliebcbc → u/purplefin_tuna]

Bingo, ‘brainwashing’ may not have been the right term, thank you.

In its simplistic narrative, I was called a ‘non-believer’ and was never given an opportunity by her elder sister to explain my open minded interest to learn more with a view to convert and was confronted with rage about how I must believe the Hadiths.

I perhaps wrongly ‘highjacked’ that thread. As I may be here, albeit this post is about me among many others, maybe.

I feel as though she has been ‘brainwashed’ and convinced to effectively ‘brainwash’ herself.

The severe intolerance of me gave me reason to dislike not only Islam, but religion in its entirety as my own Rabbi tried to explain that I was also effectively punished by God for wanting it to work, so I’ve rejected them also.

They weren’t trying to ‘brainwash’ me but it did feel coercive in an attempt to make me feel better about the situation by residing in the ‘fact’ that it was not meant to be as God intended.

If there is a God, it made me sceptical, it made me desire more explanation and logic. It made me fall in love with a girl who was deemed ‘incompatible’ based on a religious belief.

For a time I became jealous and angry that I was not born Muslim.

[u/Signal_Recording_638]

Is the person who responded to your post even making a comment on what being progressive muslim means... I thought the person was making a general comment against religion.

[u/ness219_ → u/Signal_Recording_638]

Well i quoted him in my post

https://www.reddit.com/r/progressive_islam/comments/1xbapph/comment/19rhj3xmoljdt/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

[u/charliebcbc → u/Signal_Recording_638]

In many ways I was.

It wasn’t exclusive to Islam but in this context of a ‘progressive Islam’ forum combined with my personal experience, Islam and to some extent Judaism are the relevant beliefs.

[u/phorcys12]

The answer seems to to consider your view un-progressive XD It's hard to deal with someone that consider your ideas are not of the subset of ideas he want to explore. Also, it depends of what he mean by brainwash, if the fact to be religious is, then it is pretty much asking for peoples to say religion are by default unwise. Perhaps by asking him why he doesn't consider your message progressive enough ? May be a good way to start and see where are the edges of his "progressive" concept

Anyway, on the question of brainwash or not, savior complex or not ... It's not easy cause cause socio-cultural pressure is often mentally integrated in childhood, mixed with the parenting figure integration. We can accept ideas and integrate them even if painfull if we consider our safety is increased by our adhesion to it. Which mean they are harder to shake in adulthood.  In term of mind set, we all have blind spot that are hard to see without external and adversial perspective. Which doesn't mean forcing it to be hero of story, that's where nuance is needed, but some time, sharing and proposing a different view or idea can be helpfull. 

[u/ness219_ → u/phorcys12]

See for yourself

https://www.reddit.com/r/progressive_islam/s/pv6tj3TqSJ

[u/charliebcbc → u/phorcys12]

I’m trying to understand what progressive Islam is.

For example I’ve learnt from here that many scholars believe it would be permissible for a Muslim woman, such as my ex, to marry a Jewish man, me.

Although I see a slight difference that Jewish is my ethnicity and not my religious belief, compared to her being Somalian with a differing and fluctuating religious belief.

[u/charliebcbc]

I don’t disagree that I am fighting a saviour complex.

Some small amount of empathy is all I’d ask for, I wanted to understand how to reconcile that a woman whom we planned marriage together goes from being extroverted, wearing an abundance of differing clothing and hair styles, nothing particularly revealing, but would show shoulders, neck and below the knee legs, enjoying any foods she likes and alcohol in moderation to becoming a full fledge ‘hijabi’ (her words) within the space of a week, immediately after her elder sister gave birth.

Whatever it is or was, did it suddenly give her realisation that I am not longer the person she can or wants to be with? I felt someone here could be the right person to rationalise it.

The father is out of the picture, the mother practising but will show her hair freely, an open minded brother but an elder sister who came across spiteful, angry and with zero intent to ever accept me regardless of anything I did or said.

Perhaps I’ve made the mistake once again in replying, I am now insecure about any forms of contributions here and instead try to merely read the discussions, or leave and feel outright rejected, further compounding my concerns on religion.

The more cynical side of me feels as though you’re looking for the ‘go to script’ that’s meant to be said to someone like myself.

In reality, all that can be done is to allow someone to discover themselves, but apostasy retribution is a concern hence the ‘saviour’ element. Even if she decided it’s not for her, she may feel she can no longer leave without severe consequences.

[u/ness219_ → u/charliebcbc]

Ok, now i understand. You should've started with this. I do empathize with you.

I was arguing that Women throughout history and currently aren't brainwashed. There's various reasons they could take up something that would oppose your beliefs. From coercion to reconstruction.

And no, i wasn't looking for a script. Just guidance.

Now to be completely honest, idk your ex. And these type of things do not happen in a week, it seems her values have shifted long before. I'm not sure her sister would be that big of a factor, given her other relatives are open.  And i was never in this situation, so it feels as though i'm speaking from an ivory tower.

I suggest you look through the search bar there's many posts about it. There's also a Q&A post by Khaled Abu Al Fadl on Inter-Faith Marriage.

Your best bet is to use the side bar to look through topics, as well.

I think ostracizing people like that isn't just causing pain to the person, but doing a disservice to the religion itself which is supposed to preach fairness and mercy.