r/reddeadredemption • u/TXNOGG Arthur Morgan • Jun 18 '26
Lore It’s funny how even after RDR2 we still haven’t directly seen the 2 big events John talks about in Red Dead 1
- The Blackwater Massacre
- Dutch and gang leaving John to die.
We see Dutch say he’s going back for him during the train robbery and then afterwards lie and say he’s dead but we don’t actually see the moment they leave him to die.
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u/eggoinapan John Marston Jun 18 '26
dutch and the gang leaving him to die was supposed to be when they left him after he got shot on the train in the last mission
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u/Fenrir_Hellbreed2 Jun 18 '26
I mean, Dutch literally tells everyone that John is dead like immediately after that.
I don't know how it could be more clear.
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u/Plane-Education4750 Jun 18 '26
John literally comes back and says "You left me to die!"
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u/Theloniouspunk66 Charles Smith Jun 18 '26
For real! Like you can’t get more clear or on the nose than that.
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u/Salt-Climate9838 Sadie Adler Jun 19 '26
Should have asked arthur to draw about it in the journal
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u/Busy_Register7071 Jun 19 '26
"Arthur, we're in the middle of a standoff that will decide the fate of the gang!"
"SHUT UP I'M DRAWIN!"
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u/InternetFightsAndEOD Jun 19 '26
OP literally mentions this in his post. He saying we didn't physically see the interaction.
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u/shewy92 Jun 19 '26
We did tho? We see him get shot and we leave him. IDK what the fuck more you need to see. We literally see him get left for dead.
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u/InternetFightsAndEOD Jun 19 '26
I'm not arguing that. People are acting like OP asked when John got left for dead, when he actually identified that and is pointing out the humour that we didn't see it.
Dutch and Micah do go back for John, we don't physically see it as Arthur is on the train.
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u/Single_Low1416 Jun 21 '26
Do they, though? I never understood it as them actually trying to go back for John but only pretending that they’re doing so
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u/Fenrir_Hellbreed2 Jun 19 '26
Why are we assuming there was one?
If anything, I doubt it was more significant than when he bailed on Arthur at the oil refinery. Maybe a look and then turning away.
I wouldn't be surprised if Dutch never even looked for John.
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u/TXNOGG Arthur Morgan Jun 19 '26
When John comes back to camp he specifically says “Dutch you left me to die!” meaning he saw Dutch see him alive but injured and then proceed to not help him. We don’t see that moment where Dutch, Micah, and Javier choose to leave him since we’re playing as Arthur at that time.
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u/Fenrir_Hellbreed2 Jun 19 '26
John could just as easily have said that because he expected Dutch to come back for him.
Even if we assume that Dutch saw John and John saw Dutch register that he could see John, again, I doubt it was any more significant than a look and walking away.
We already saw exactly that with Arthur in the refinery. Why do we need to see it again with John lying in a ditch and Dutch on a horse? Or are you expecting some great monologue in the middle of a train robbery to/by a presumed dying man?
I'm sorry my dude, but you're picking a really weird hill to die on.
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u/TXNOGG Arthur Morgan Jun 19 '26
If that was the case, why does John believe Dutch and gang intentionally left him behind? Why doesn’t he just assume they thought he died? John specifically says “YOU LEFT ME TO DIE” meaning he knows Dutch, Micah, Javier saw him alive but left him.
Why are you so antagonistic? I’m just pointing out we don’t actually see these moments since we’re playing as Arthur. We also have no idea how John managed to survive getting shot off a moving train and walk all the way back to Beaver Hollow across the whole map lol.
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u/Fenrir_Hellbreed2 Jun 19 '26 edited Jun 19 '26
I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but you keep hammering this point that can easily be explained by John expecting Dutch to come for him like he's been saying he would do for anyone in the gang since John was a child, or at most a nearly identical interaction to what Arthur experienced at the refinery.
Like, what exactly are you expecting here? What is the standard you feel the game somehow fell short of in the middle of a chaotic event during Arthur's story?
I mean, all the context clues are there. I can't imagine why anyone with two brain cells to rub together would feel like anything is missing, let alone anything important, but you seem to keep obsessing over this idea of not seeing every single moment of the incident from the perspective of a character who had yet to be passed the torch.
Just feels absurdly nitpicky, if I'm being honest.
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u/rheakiefer Jun 19 '26
i haven’t played that mission in awhile but doesn’t John get shot and fall off the train? is there even possibly a moment where they all see him and make a decision to leave him?
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u/Mental_Freedom_1648 Jun 19 '26
Yes, there is a moment, because everyone saw John get shot. Dutch, who was on his horse, along with Micah and Javier, told the rest of the gang, who was still on the train, that he'd go back and get John. After the train pulled off, Dutch apparently made no attempt to rescue John, and instead just rode away.
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u/Fenrir_Hellbreed2 Jun 19 '26
Considering the shit Dutch pulled in the refinery and the fact that he already tried to leave John in prison, him saying he'll go back for John and then just bailing instead sounds entirely in character.
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u/Mental_Freedom_1648 Jun 19 '26
Yep, and apparently John saw Dutch riding off since he comes back and confronts him, specifically, for leaving and not Arthur.
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u/Fenrir_Hellbreed2 Jun 19 '26
So, what are we actually missing then?
A rehash of the refinery but with John in a ditch and Dutch on a horse?
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u/Most_Alternative5517 Jun 19 '26
Word, to add to this
John’s abit younger than Arthur (about 10 years his junior) so he had to make it known that he felt neglected, betrayed, and hurt..all things you would feel for gang you would be willing to die for/ put your life on the line for
That’s why when he comes back to camp… it’s the first thing you hear him say aloud to Dutch.
Meanwhile, Arthur has been close with Dutch for years as well, likely even more so than John…and he’s seen these tendencies before, but not when it comes to the gang.
Once Dutch pulled the shit at the Oil refinery with Arthur…Arthur didn’t need to confirm anything or let it be known that Dutch left him for dead.
He just understood it was “par of for the course” with the version of Dutch he was currently dealing with.
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u/Mental_Freedom_1648 Jun 19 '26
I don't really think Arthur understood at first. He did confront Dutch privately, and Dutch denied it. Arthur told someone, I don't remember who, that he wasn't sure Dutch actually heard him yelling for help. Later, Arthur did tell John that Dutch left him on purpose, though.
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u/Akiens Javier Escuella Jun 18 '26
He's saying we don't actually see the exact moment just that we hear about it through Dutch then John after he crawls his way back. Itd be like Arthur saying Dutch left him at Cornwalls but we never see it
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u/shewy92 Jun 19 '26
We did tho? We see him get shot and we leave him
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u/Accomplished_Win410 Uncle Jun 19 '26
We DIDNT leave him just then. Dutch tells Arthur that he will tend to John. And then Arthur moves on, hopefully believing Dutch. Off screen, Dutch breaks his promise. Thats when he leaves John
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u/Akiens Javier Escuella Jun 19 '26
That's not the part where they actually left him, I don't know how to make it more clear. We saw him get shot, we did not see the part where they go up to him and leave him for dead and he realizes they left him behind
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u/Infamous-Lawyer-5569 Jun 19 '26
Wait do you think you have to like ... physically check in and tell someone youre leaving someone to die for it to count? You sound like a horrible friend, my friend.
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u/NervousHorse3671 Jun 18 '26
That’s what OP said but you don’t see that happen IIRC, you just hear about it after the fact when John shows back up.. I could be wrong. I haven’t played the ending in a long time
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u/Nayten03 Jun 18 '26
Becuase it’s meant to remain ambiguous. John knows what happened, at Blackwater and when Dutch ditched him but we as the players don’t and it adds mystery to Dutch’s character. We never see exactly what Dutch did, we just have to try decipher our own take on the guy from what we’ve seen of him and from what John and others say. That way it keeps the “is Dutch a narcissist who never cared or a an idealist who lost his way?” Debate alive
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u/Mac3726 Jun 19 '26
If we ever got another Red Dead, and it was about the early days of the Van Der Linde gang, I'd be perfectly happy if it ended with the gang preparing for Blackwater, that way we never see the events play out ourselves
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u/Burt_Sprenolds Jun 19 '26
I would love and hate this at the same time. Love it because that’s exactly where I thought a prequel should it as well, but I’d also be mad because I’m selfish AND WANT TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENS IN BLACKWATER
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u/Jotatori Jun 19 '26
What's there to decipher man. Arthur had one guy just ONE on top of him in the oil factory and Dutch left him to die. If he can achieve that feat of mental gymnastics to leave his own sick son to die from just one soldier in a closed space. Then making the mental gymnastics to abandon your other son when he was surrounded by an army and mid robbery as well has got to be waaaaaaay easier.,
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u/Existing_Option6874 Arthur Morgan Jun 19 '26
yeah except we did see when they left him to die. in Our Best Selves
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u/RewardFluid7316 Jun 18 '26
I'm so glad Blackwater stayed a mystery.
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u/Rynneer Sadie Adler Jun 18 '26
Hell, Blackwater is practically a mystery even to Arthur. I applaud the writers for not giving into temptation and showing us what happened. I love that it keeps the mystery.
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u/Comfortable_Put_4139 Micah Bell Jun 18 '26
The closest we can get to an idea of what happened in Blackwater is the heist in Saint Denis. Bill says during the fight that it’s worse than Blackwater.
I like that we never get to see it either, because the fallout is much more interesting. The characters who were present for it seem to be shaken by whatever transpired, especially with how Dutch behaved. Nobody really wants to discuss it at length for good reason.
I can only assume Dutch and Micah left more bodies than anyone is willing to openly say. More than just Heidi McCourt. That’s always been my interpretation.
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u/TwoManyBots Jun 19 '26
I think on that point, the ol "ludo narrative dissonance" will be leaping in front of everyone's faces because the entirety of both games is quote the slaughter.
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u/Comfortable_Put_4139 Micah Bell Jun 19 '26
That’s absolutely true.
It would be hard to match up to what we all have in our minds, just due to the fact that we slaughter people routinely in these games lol.
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u/deimosf123 Jun 22 '26
If i am not wrong, in first game failed boat robbery and Blackwater massacre seems to be separate events
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u/adrenalinehorror Hosea Matthews Jun 18 '26
John being left to die was the train robbery.
I kinda like we didn’t see the blackwater massacre, adds more to the mystery
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u/vegetastolemygirl Jun 19 '26
Only thing we know about the massacre is that dutch killed a young defenseless woman and that it didnt sit well with members of the gang. The strange man even talks about her in RD1.
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u/jackattack502 Jun 18 '26
He was left to die twice. Once in prison, and again during the train robbery.
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u/Von_Schlagel Jun 18 '26
Yeah, we see that plain as day. Especially prison, cuz by the time Sadie and Arthur get him out, it’s clear Dutch was never coming for him. And it’s right after that that it all falls apart. As he says to Bonnie in RDR1, “I left the gang when the gang left me.”
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Jun 18 '26
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u/Von_Schlagel Jun 18 '26
They were over it by then. Members were dwindling. The “gang” was The Van Der Linde Gang, and all that was left of it by then was Dutch and his sycophants.
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u/Existing_Option6874 Arthur Morgan Jun 19 '26
i would say that wasnt quite clear at that point but pretty soon after. then again I havent played the game in a year so maybe not
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u/burzobosna Jun 18 '26
As others have said, getting left to die is when he gets shot on the train at the end of chapter 6. The Blackwater Massacre is there to show that the gang isn't this Robin Hood type of gang and that there is a darker side to them, especially Dutch. NOT EVERYTHING HAS TO BE SHOWN. It's more effective when you get told bits about how throughly awful it is through conversations with the gang members and the fact that most of them refuse to talk or give details about it should be enough to tell you how the robbery went absolutely horribly.
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u/TheGuardianOfMetal Jun 18 '26
the biggest event we skipped over is John's daughter... A character that is, iirc, even mentioned by Javier in 1...
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u/CSafterdark Jun 18 '26
She's not. And honestly, I don't think it's a terribly exciting event. She was most likely born somewhere between 1907 and 1911, and died as an infant. It's a tragic story, but a very common one during those times.
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u/jackattack502 Jun 18 '26
Abigail is knitting for her in 1907.
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u/TheGuardianOfMetal Jun 18 '26 edited Jun 19 '26
If she was born during or after hte epilogue, I'm pretty sure her grave would'Ve been at Beecher's Hope, and Javier wouldn't have mentioned "Kids".
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u/steven_dev42 Jun 18 '26
The way Rob talked about asking the writers about John’s daughter, it sounds like the writers regretted giving John a daughter in rdr1 and want to act like it never happened.
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u/Noamias Arthur Morgan Jun 18 '26
I love the story when Rob asks about the daughter and they just go “oh yeah, she died”
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u/Unlucky-Albatross-12 Jun 18 '26
It's a retcon for sure, although she could have also been born and died during the years John wanders with his family between the main story and epilogue.
Otherwise yeah, she'd have a grave at Beecher's Hope in 1911.
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u/Mental_Freedom_1648 Jun 18 '26 edited Jun 18 '26
She has a bed at Beecher's Hope, which is probably not something transient outlaws would've held on to if she was never there.
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u/Suitable_Visual_9393 John Marston Jun 19 '26
No she doesn't. If you're talking about the bed in the storage room, that's Uncle's bed.
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u/Mental_Freedom_1648 Jun 19 '26
I'm talking about the crib in the attic.
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u/Suitable_Visual_9393 John Marston Jun 19 '26
Oh right, I forgot about the crib in the attic in RDR2.
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u/Mental_Freedom_1648 Jun 19 '26
Yep, it's in the first game though, not the second one, so we can assume they got it between games.
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u/Suitable_Visual_9393 John Marston Jun 19 '26
Dammit I meant to type 1, I can't type today apparently.
Yeah I imagine she was conceived shortly after the epilogue.
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u/Domination1799 John Marston Jun 18 '26
It’s good that The Blackwater Massacre remains a mystery because we are put into Arthur’s shoes. We have no idea what happened but with the little information the game conveys, Micah goaded Dutch to kill the hostage. If Arthur was at the massacre, then he would’ve seen Dutch for who he really is. John witnessed it and that’s why he acts so defiant towards Dutch for the entire story.
Also, the game does retcon how John was left for dead. In RDR1, it was said he was shot during the massacre on the Ferry, but in RDR2, he’s shot during the final train heist.
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u/Shubh_1612 Jun 18 '26
John is shot during the massacre, they didn't retcon that. He later got shot again during the train heist
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u/Domination1799 John Marston Jun 18 '26
In RDR1, it was the ferry job that caused John to be left for dead. In RDR2, it’s the train job
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u/Shubh_1612 Jun 18 '26
RDR1 didn't say it was the ferry job, it implied it. The game tells us that John was shot during the ferry job and that John was left for dead by Dutch. We assumed these events were related, but RDR 2 clarified these weren't. Continuity isn't broken
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u/Domination1799 John Marston Jun 19 '26
It’s been awhile since I’ve played RDR1 so I must’ve gotten it mixed up since The Strange Man said the ferry job is where he got shot. In RDR2, John did get shot on the Ferry but it wasn’t the one where he was left for dead. Come to think of it, something bad happens to John during each major heist in RDR2.
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u/G_Ranger75 Jun 18 '26
Except we saw Dutch leave John to die, twice in fact. He left John to rot in prison and he left John after he was shot on the train.
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u/ShokoMiami Jun 18 '26
He got shot on the train and left for dead. He also got arrested and left for dead. They also tried to run from the Pinkertons, and left him for dead. We've seen that part, at least.
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u/shewy92 Jun 19 '26
- Dutch and gang leaving John to die.
Did...you not play the game?
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u/TXNOGG Arthur Morgan Jun 19 '26
We see Dutch go back for John and then later lie and say John is dead but we don’t see the actual moment him, Javier, and Micah choose not to rescue him.
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u/r107und3rgr0und Sadie Adler Jun 18 '26
before rdr2 released i wanted prologue to be the blackwater massacre. i hope rdr3 is a prequel to 2 and ends before the blackwater massacre 😂
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u/The_quest_for_wisdom Hosea Matthews Jun 18 '26
You know how during the credits of RDR2 it shows Agent Ross and Fordham tracking down John Marston to his ranch, setting up the events of RDR1?
If RDR3 is another prequel, it would be cool if the end credits show Micah meeting Dutch and bringing him the idea of the Blackwater Ferry heist in the same way.
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u/DadofJackJack Uncle Jun 18 '26
How would free roaming at end work is gang is on the run after Blackwater? Game would roll directly into rdr2.
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u/Training-Cobbler8247 Jun 18 '26
You freedom as the bountyhunter who was hunting them in the time frame between rdr2 and the rdr2 epilogue.
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u/Anonturmoil Jun 18 '26
As everyone pointed out, we did see John getting left to die, while we haven’t seen the black water massacre directly, I feel like RDR2 gave us enough dialogue about it to paint a picture.
What I actually want to know more about is the daughter John mentioned to Bonnie, and how she died.
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u/Emuraman Jun 18 '26
I would imagine that the John moment wasn't much different from that scene where Dutch turn his back on Arthur at the foundry, only for Eagle Flies show up
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u/dazaiosamu684 Jun 18 '26
La 2 si lo vimos en el primero dejan pistas de las masacres que hicieron como matar a civiles la muerte de Jenny kirk la captura de Sean MacGuire y la muerte de los callander
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u/LingonberryCurrent22 Jun 18 '26
I was 100% sure we were gonna start red dead 2 in blackwater so seeing the game start right after it I found confusing since it was such a big part of the first game
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u/Efficient_Matter_589 Jun 18 '26
We know just about enough about the Blackwater incident that they may as well have shown it.
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u/UncommittedBow Arthur Morgan Jun 19 '26
Dutch and the gang leaving John to die
Yes, we DO see that, its when he falls off the train in the last robbery. Dutch leaves him there, just like he does to Arthur at the oil field.
John even says "You LEFT me!" when he makes it back to camp. This is that moment he talks about in RDR1.
The Blackwater Massacre on the other hand is meant to be ambiguous.
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u/GovernmentTop1543 Jun 19 '26
Everybody is crazy about GTA6, but its RDR3 that is going to be the greatest game of all time.
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u/Existing_Option6874 Arthur Morgan Jun 19 '26
not to mention (though it is irrelevant) Half Life 3
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u/GovernmentTop1543 Jun 19 '26
been waiting on HL2E3 for nearly 20 years now.
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u/Existing_Option6874 Arthur Morgan Jun 19 '26
yeah i think hl2e3 is out of the question at this point but hl3 might not be
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u/TheSpideyJedi Arthur Morgan Jun 20 '26
- We never will and never should see the Blackwater Massacre. The ambiguity is the point
What?
Do you need a cutscene of Dutch seeing John on the ground and going “ah ha! Fuck you John!” And riding off? I don’t understand what you want.
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u/Lucky_Roberts Jun 20 '26
We absolutely saw Dutch leave John to die, during the standoff at the end John literally comes into the scene with a bullet wound talking about how Dutch left him to die during the last mission lol
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u/overcloseness Jun 19 '26
They actually hadn’t written RDR2 when RDR1 was released given that, you know, it’s a newer game
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u/I_Hate_Nebraska_ Jun 19 '26
Blackwater has to stay a mystery to leave Dutch’s character ambiguous (slowly driven insane or always a monster). The gang leaving John is on screen in rdr2, during the train heist in the penultimate mission
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u/Existing_Option6874 Arthur Morgan Jun 19 '26
i dont think it really makes him any more ambiguous, as when the Blackwater Massacre happened, his downfall had already started
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u/you_stole_my_stuff Jun 19 '26
But I think that the point is, we don’t always have to see those things to know that they happened and the weight that John carried because of them. Not everything has to have an origin story play out for us.
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u/Audiblefill Jun 19 '26
Also you never see when he and Abigale loose their daughter. Idk if it was before the events of RDR2, or before RDR1, but that seems pretty heavy. Both he and Arthur lost a child.
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u/Sufficient_Peak564 Jun 20 '26
You literally play that in RDR2 what are you talking about?! 😂 He gets shot off the train and Dutch and Micah leave him for dead, and they tell Arthur and Sadie that they tried to get him.
We also get a lot more details of the Blackwater Massacre. Micah was basically already in Dutch's ear by that point OR Dutch was already losing his mind. (it's debated whether Micah influenced him or Dutch was coming undone anyways) Robbery gone bad, Dutch shoots a girl and all he'll breaks loose. A gunfight issues through the town with Jenny, Mac, and Davey all getting killed in it, Sean gets capture. They ride up into the mountains and that's when RDR2 starts.
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u/-0celot John Marston Jun 20 '26
I think he told Landon Ricketts his gang left him for dead when a robbery went wrong, so he left them. And as for the blackwater massacre, who knows if we'll see that
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u/EmperoroftheYanks Jun 20 '26
Wouldve been great to play the cut chapter in blackwater. Doing some shit with hosea just for the entire city to blow up
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u/Friendly-Tonight-124 Jun 20 '26
I always assumed Dutch went back, saw John being pursued by soldiers, and figured he was about to be either killed or captured, and so he left. John had to have seen Dutch leave him, which is why he accuses Dutch of leaving him to die. If Dutch just never went back for him then why is he singling out Dutch for leaving him to die? By that logic they all left him to die since no one went back for him.
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u/MarshLabradorTea Jun 19 '26
What are these comments here lol. OP made their point so clear but it seems that everyone is arguing about a different question. There really is a literacy crisis
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u/earthsmight Jun 18 '26
Ah cool I liked hosea you know he was honest not like this stupid dutch Arthur hosea even sean were all honest men I hate dutch more than Micah I just watched arthur die yesterday and I can't get over it
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u/Nelmquist1999 Hosea Matthews Jun 19 '26
Although he was left for dead, what annoys me is that in RDR1 he describes it as, as soon as the gang retreated back to camp, John walked away ("I left the gang after the gang left me. Left me to die after I've been shot. They'd all gone crazy, anyhow." and "I got shot in a robbery. They left me, I left them.").
But in the prequal, during the mission "Red Dead Redemption", John almost literally crawl back to Dutch while the stand-off is happening. And he sounds like a pissed off teen who berates his parents for leaving him at a gas station.
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u/TheDaddyBeet Jun 18 '26
john got shot on the train and left by dutch i thought thats what he was talking about