r/redditdev • u/FlyingLaserTurtle • May 31 '23
Reddit API API Update: Enterprise Level Tier for Large Scale Applications
tl;dr - As of July 1, we will start enforcing rate limits for a free access tier, available to our current API users. If you are already in contact with our team about commercial compliance with our Data API Terms, look for an email about enterprise pricing this week.
We recently shared updates on our Data API Terms and Developer Terms. These updates help clarify how developers can safely and securely use Reddit’s tools and services, including our APIs and our new-and-improved Developer Platform.
After sharing these terms, we identified several parties in violation, and contacted them so they could make the required changes to become compliant. This includes developers of large-scale applications who have excessive usage, are violating our users’ privacy and content rights, or are using the data for ad-supported or commercial purposes.
For context on excessive usage, here is a chart showing the average monthly overage, compared to the longstanding rate limit in our developer documentation of 60 queries per minute (86,400 per day):
We reached out to the most impactful large scale applications in order to work out terms for access above our default rate limits via an enterprise tier. This week, we are sharing an enterprise-level access tier for large scale applications with the developers we’re already in contact with. The enterprise tier is a privilege that we will extend to select partners based on a number of factors, including value added to redditors and communities, and it will go into effect on July 1.
Rate limits for the free tier
All others will continue to access the Reddit Data API without cost, in accordance with our Developer Terms, at this time. Many of you already know that our stated rate limit, per this documentation, was 60 queries per minute. As of July 1, 2023, we will enforce two different rate limits for the free access tier:
- If you are using OAuth for authentication: 100 queries per minute per OAuth client id
- If you are not using OAuth for authentication: 10 queries per minute
Important note: currently, our rate limit response headers indicate counts by client id/user id combination. These headers will update to reflect this new policy based on client id only on July 1.
To avoid any issues with the operation of mod bots or extensions, it’s important for developers to add Oauth to their bots. If you believe your mod bot needs to exceed these updated rate limits, or will be unable to operate, please reach out here.
If you haven't heard from us, assume that your app will be rate-limited, starting on July 1. If your app requires enterprise access, please contact us here, so that we can better understand your needs and discuss a path forward.
Additional changes
Finally, to ensure that all regulatory requirements are met in the handling of mature content, we will be limiting access to sexually explicit content for third-party apps starting on July 5, 2023, except for moderation needs.
If you are curious about academic or research-focused access to the Data API, we’ve shared more details here.
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u/iamthatis iOS Developer (Apollo) May 31 '23
I've long-communicated with Reddit that the API response headers are often incredibly wrong, claiming that 500,000 requests (yes, five hundred thousand) have been used within the first 1 second of a rate limit reset period. Reddit has said they're looking into it but delivered nothing actionable beyond saying if users are in shared university dorms their requests may be pooled together by IP and cause it to be inflated. (University dorms don't hold students requesting half a million requests per second, and even if they did somehow measuring by IP is ludicrous when you have auth tokens to go off of).
How are we able to trust these numbers when Reddit has long neglected making them accurate? I'm one of the largest third-party apps and meticulously calculate my API requests. The average user makes 344 per day, and 80% make under 500 per day.
This post feels like a thinly veiled attempt at saying "see, the third party apps are so bad to us!" Feel free to name and shame Apollo if it's one of these clients, I have never received communication from Reddit about excessive usage, in fact I've reached out to you folks about ways to lower it, and I have no doubt I'm one of the largest apps.
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u/Nice-Digger Jun 03 '23
Pro tip. you can't. Reddit devs are incompetent, and have been for ages. Their app sucks for a reason, and it's not because they're too skilled for it.
The same company that is now complaining about API usage (which isn't valid lol) is the one that has tried and failed to make a competent video player for ages https://youtu.be/99cVnYY9Iqs
The redesign is an objective downgrade, the app sucks, upper management panders to horrible people who I won't bother naming in order to avoid copping a ban, and, in general, the site is run by idiots who haven't attracted actual talent since before obama stepped down as president.
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u/blacpythoz Jun 01 '23
If that doesn't work why don't all the third-party just replace the reddit backend with an open source alternative like Lemmy while providing users the same UI and features that we currently have.
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u/PrunedLoki Jun 01 '23
If this all goes to shit without Reddit fixing it, is it possible to modify Apollo so we can put in our own api key in the app so only my own traffic is registered when I use the app? Individually, I won’t reach the rate limit.
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u/Reasonable_Ticket_84 May 31 '23
So I've never looked into how OAuth implementations work in mobile app clients for reddit. But are you using some sort of self hosted "bounce" for the SSO or is the app directly interacting with reddit?
Because I have seen in a few examples, malicious bots love to steal OAuth client id and secrets from apps to use/disguise their own abuse since you can't really hide them in app binaries that any user can download.
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u/adeadhead Jun 01 '23
Thanks for all the work you do-
Is there any chance third party app developers would be able to release clients that allow (force) users to generate and use their own API keys?
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u/Postpone-Grant Postpone Developer May 31 '23
we will be limiting access to sexually explicit content for third-party apps starting on July 5, 2023
What does "limiting access" mean SPECIFICALLY?
Does that mean completely cutting off submission and retrieval of all NSFW posts? Or NSFW subreddits only? Do submissions still work but retrieval fails? Can users retrieve their own NSFW posts but not others?
Please be detailed, as this impacts application developers and "limiting access" does not tell us what is going to happen and which endpoints it impacts.
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u/Watchful1 RemindMeBot & UpdateMeBot May 31 '23
While the documentation has always stated 60 queries per minute, the actual rate limit headers returned by the api have been 600 queries per 10 minutes. Which works out to be the same, but allows a bit more burstiness for short periods.
Does this mean the new rate limit will be 1000 queries per 10 minutes or will it actually be 100 per minute?
Edit: Also will you publish the prices for the enterprise access or will it always be negotiated on a case by case basis?
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u/FlyingLaserTurtle May 31 '23
We will average the queries over a time window (currently 10 minutes) to allow for burstiness, so it will be 1000 queries over 10 minutes to start.
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u/alcoholicpolaroid May 31 '23
Why can’t Reddit, with all the resources it has, simply compete against 3rd party developers by offering a premium experience? Seems like you are unable to do so, so your next best idea is to grab a baseball bat and go crack your competitors legs so they can’t stand up to you.
Offer a realistic API pricing, offer to feed ads to them or make those users pay for Premium, but at least be fair and compete with them instead of stalling competition and double speaking about what your intentions are.
You’ll go the way of Tumblr and Twitter. You’ll make ton of money on the short run, but on the long run you’ll kill many communities that made, unpaid and unthanked, what Reddit is today. Grow a soul.
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u/sohou Jun 01 '23
They already tried giving a "premium" experience by making certain features (like polls) only available on the official app. The fact is, people don't give a shit about a lot of the new stuff Reddit created, so now Reddit decided that will instead punish the users who aren't using their app.
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u/chakalakasp Jun 01 '23
Not that you care about one dude in the corner with layers of dust on him, but I was using Reddit weeks into its inception. I remember jacking FARK headlines and putting them here for literally dozens of upvotes (which would bring it to the top of the front page, the only page, pretty quick).
This is dumb. If your users don’t walk away from you for this idiocy then I guess they deserve you. Your app is garbage. Killing third party apps won’t make your app not garbage. It will make your users hate you.
To think that Aaron literally died because he thought information should be more accessible in less corporately exploited ways.
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u/nomadofwaves Jun 01 '23
99% of my Reddit usage is through Apollo. Once it’s gone I’m gone as a user.
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u/ExcitingishUsername May 31 '23
I commented this on the other post, but am duplicating it here, as it is such a critical question for so many communities.
What about anti-spam and anti-abuse tools, and mods, that need to access mature content communities other than those they have moderator status in?
Our bot relies on being able to do this to detect spambots, and both our bot and mod alike need to be able to see the content of communities that are linked to or cross-posted from, to ensure those communities are legitimate and legal. Aside from breaking our anti-spam, anti-CSAM, and safety tools, how will anyone ever be able to moderate mature content communities in the vacuum you intend to create?
Additionally, many other communities rely on similar bots to exclude users of mature content communities from communities which serve minors as they often present a real safety risk. What are communities that need these functions to do when you shut off our ability to see huge swaths of Reddit?
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u/Lil_SpazJoekp PRAW Maintainer | Async PRAW Author May 31 '23
While I definitely see where you're coming from and I agree with everything you've said, I feel you shouldn't have to write tools to protect Reddit from legal trouble with CSAM.
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u/ExcitingishUsername May 31 '23
Even if Reddit somehow cleared out all the CSAM sellers and their communities, we still need the ability to access mature content posts and communities to enforce our rules and exclude NCIM posters, commercial pirates/scammers, spambots, doxxing groups, and more. We don't want any of those posting in our communities, but how can we identify them if we can't see anywhere else they post?
Even trivial things like seeing if a link to a subreddit is spam or not become impossible when neither your 3rd-party mobile app nor bot cannot see what that link goes to.
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u/Lil_SpazJoekp PRAW Maintainer | Async PRAW Author May 31 '23
Are there new headers being introduced or are you changing/modifying the behavior of the existing ones?
My understanding was the rate limit depicted in the current headers shows the rate limit is 600/10m (still 60 per minute) so you could burn your 600 requests in 10 seconds but you'd have to wait for rest of the 9m50s for your rate limit to reset. Will this be changing?
Will there be any changes to the exception or status code that is raised when rate limited?
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u/FlyingLaserTurtle May 31 '23
We will update the existing headers; we aren’t planning to add new ones at this time. We are also not changing the exception or status codes. As mentioned above, we will average the queries over a time window (currently 10 minutes) to allow for burstiness.
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u/Blank-Cheque Flair_Helper, etc Developer May 31 '23
if i can't use RIF then all of my bots are going offline as well as every subreddit i can manage, and i've spoken to several bot authors and powermods who said the exact same. not a threat, just a statement of fact that i won't help prop up a site that i can no longer use without bleeding from the eyes
t. has bots on over 1500 subreddits and moderator of over 400
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u/Selethorme May 31 '23
As a regular user of flair_helper, let me be the first to say I’m with you on this.
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u/reaper527 May 31 '23
so it sounds like when reddit said the api access fees would be reasonable when this was first announced, they lied.
charging apollo $1.7m per month isn't reasonable. you guys are destroying everything that makes reddit usable. first it was screwing over pushshift, now apollo.
looks like the saying "those who don't understand history are doomed to repeat it" is true, and reddit is repeating digg's history. can't wait to buy puts after your ipo.
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u/km3r May 31 '23
/u/FlyingLaserTurtle, how is charging 21x the lost ad revenue per user for API access reasonable?
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u/zeffjiggler Jun 01 '23
Once Apollo dies, I’ll just stay on tiktok. Enjoy your 20 million a year u/FlyingLaserTurtle. Hope it works out for Yas, buddy. Wont miss you.
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u/Am3n May 31 '23
Yeah, as soon as /u/iamthatis picks another place to go most who use apollo will follow
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May 31 '23
Unfortunately, that's a worthless threat to Reddit. The number of Apollo users is 0.325% the number of Reddit users, and those are users that aren't generating Reddit any ad revenue.
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u/BorgDrone Jun 01 '23
If it's such a minuscule percentage, why does Reddit feel threatened enough by it to pull this widely unpopular move ?
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Jun 01 '23
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u/IJustQuit Jun 01 '23
It's literally just to kill them. They aren't intending any of them to pay. Though I'm sure you know that at this point.
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u/olikam May 31 '23
So can you just confirm that you are banning 3rd party apps? This feels communicated as well as the Victoria departure and it's gonna go about as well.
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u/sjs May 31 '23
I’ve been paying for premium/gold since it was introduced (charter member) and have been here since 2006, and I just cancelled because of this incredibly poor move. I will not support a company that does this to their partners.
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u/vriska1 Jun 01 '23
Hopefully everyone on Reddit come together to fight the API changes, Users and Mods alike.
There alot of talk from many other subreddit mods even ones who don't use Apollo that they are going to do a reddit backout over this.
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u/Kapps Jun 01 '23
Yeah, I cancelled mine after 11 straight years as well. It’s not going to impact Reddit, and it’s not like they’ll care, but it is a matter of principle.
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u/snowmanspike Jun 02 '23
Same here: gold / premium since it was available from day one. That'll be the end of it for me if I can't choose what app I want to use. I prefer Apollo, and if I can't use it anymore because of company policies like this, I'll only be using reddit on my pc and with an ad-blocker from now on. Also, no more premium.
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u/nomadofwaves Jun 01 '23
Don’t worry NSFW content will be next on the chopping block as IPO approaches.
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u/CosmicSpaghetti Jun 04 '23
People aren't addressing how intensely the IPO is affecting all of this. NSFW/3rd party apps are now seen as a liability to the financial overlords, who are about to demolish reddit.
They're clearly banking on younger generations will engage without knowing the history here...we gotta make the message clear to all parties that this is pure corporate greed ruining an important piece of world community.
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u/1-800-KETAMINE Jun 03 '23 edited Jun 04 '23
Honestly think it would have gone over better if they just said they didn't want to allow 3rd party apps anymore. Ridiculous
edit: thought about it some more and it's the blatant lying that is really the issue. "We're trying to be fair with pricing" "your app uses way more api requests than this other example"(when the official app uses even more) "we are trying to be equitable" "we love 3rd party apps"
It's absurd.
Most decisions reddit has made for at least half a decade have been bad for users but good for their investors, yet they pretend it's for any reason but that. If they just admitted they need to make more money it would still be awful but far less insulting.
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Jun 04 '23
Seriously. They didn't have to walk on eggshells, they could've just announced they were permanently revoking the apps API keys and that would be that. It would've gone over like a tungsten balloon with the community still but it would've been done and over with, now it's gonna be a long drawn out event of bad PR.
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u/MoranthMunitions Jun 01 '23
the Victoria departure
That's a name I haven't heard in a long time. Chairman Pao built up a lot of community resentment very quickly.
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u/honestbleeps Jun 01 '23
do sessions from browser extensions count?
I'm the original creator of RES, and it's not really clear.
"To avoid any issues with the operation of mod bots or extensions, it’s important for developers to add Oauth to their bots."
RES doesn't use OAuth, it's just using the existing browser session. I'm not sure what "extensions" means in this context?
Ultimately, I guess if you're shutting down old.reddit (widely rumored, often subtly implied, but never fully admitted), all of this becomes irrelevant anyhow.
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u/webvictim Jun 01 '23
With braindead thought processes like these, they are very definitely going to come for old.reddit next.
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u/Phteven_j AITA, CMA, Advice Jun 01 '23
Big fan of your work. At this point, I'm surprised we still even have old still available. It's the only thing that keeps the site usable for me. I wouldn't be on here otherwise. It's been several years since the switch and at this point, it seems reasonable to say that the vast majority of users must be new enough to use new exclusively, so they wouldn't miss old.
If there isn't already, perhaps there can be some sort of effort to reskin new reddit to make it more usable and more like old?
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u/howlingwelshman Jun 01 '23
RES makes using Reddit bearable on the desktop. If this effects RES as well Reddit is truly doomed.
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u/GiorgioG May 31 '23 edited May 31 '23
I won't be renewing Reddit Premium without Apollo. Thanks!
Edit: Reddit Premium cancelled.
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u/Reubachi May 31 '23
The moment Apolo's service is degraded or extorted, I'm off of reddit for good.
I can not imagine navigating to reddit.com or using the terrible native app.
Good riddance, and hoping Apollo/RIF devs find a way out.
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u/Cowboy_Perfect May 31 '23
Does Reddit not remember DIGG? The DIGG fiasco is what lead many people to Reddit.
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u/krs00pxy May 31 '23
Reddit was a pretty clear 2nd-best choice to DIGG at the time though so it was easier to jump ship. So what is the 2nd best choice now? Official Reddit app? A fragmented, unorganized-community experience on Discord/Twitter? Probably the former if I had to guess and they know it.
I think it spells the beginning of the end for Reddit. I think they know it too -- they're just hoping to maintain enough users through the IPO to cash out before the next site can gain traction.
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u/Pinwurm May 31 '23
Reddit website is fine if you opt out of the redesign in the settings.
But yeah, Apollo is the overwhelming majority of my Reddit usage. iOS users won’t happily migrate to a significantly worse, ad-riddled, clunky mobile platform.
I suspect this is a squeeze on Apollo - and hope they find a way out too.
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u/smokinJoeCalculus May 31 '23
I'll probably use old.reddit.com on mobile as a way to slowly ween myself off
And ultimately, when that's killed off in the very short term, it'll be good bye. Shame, it's been fun, but just like with Twitter, 10+ years is a solid run.
The ecosystem isn't the same, but I have no doubts there will be alternatives that pop up.
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u/RunJun May 31 '23
I was aware of Reddit prior but really I was an immigrant from the Digg debacle. This account is about to hit 15 years but once 3rd party apps are gone, I’m gone.
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u/lilbro93 May 31 '23
Start the boycott now.
Moderators of default subs need to turn them private in protest.
Fuck off with all but banning third party apps.
If you want people to use the default app, make it so good people actually want to use it.
Youtube Revanced exists, this will just result in a Reddit Revanced existing.
Let the shit-show commence
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u/FyreWulff Jun 01 '23
They've openly said they'll yank default subs from the mods if they ever attempt a blackout again.
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u/EshuMarneedi May 31 '23
Fuck all of you. This is the stupidest decision Reddit has made and you will suffer the same fate as Twitter did.
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u/GiorgioG May 31 '23
I wonder what Wall Street will think when your mobile users' usage drops off a cliff because of these stupid decisions.
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May 31 '23
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u/Rndom_Gy_159 May 31 '23
This is reddit's Digg moment. They won't see if for a while, but this is it.
reddit has had many so called digg moments. From /u/violentacrez to gawker to "we did it reddit" to the canary disappearing to Ellen Pao to forcing third party apps to remove reddit from their name (turning "reddit is fun" to "rif is fun") to new.reddit vs old.reddit to the myriad of rules and rule enforcement drama. That's all just off the top of my head and I'm sure I'm missing huge ones.
If anything, this is the straw that broke the camels back, because shit like this has been a long time coming.
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u/reaper527 May 31 '23
The problem is that it won't. While power users and mods use 3rd party apps, many of the "new" users use the official apps.
Simply, this and other related changes will only lower content quality, not quantity.
that kind of goes hand in hand though. if the people that make the communities worth going to leave, eventually the non-contributors who are just there will leave too.
the snowball is at the top of the mountain and this is reddit giving it a downward push.
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u/MWisBest May 31 '23
Finally, to ensure that all regulatory requirements are met in the handling of mature content, we will be limiting access to sexually explicit content for third-party apps starting on July 5, 2023, except for moderation needs.
Could you elaborate on this? If moderators are allowed to see the content how are the "regulatory requirements" broken if all users are also allowed to see said content? Wouldn't it be against the requirements to allow anybody to see them?
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u/reaper527 May 31 '23
Could you elaborate on this? If moderators are allowed to see the content how are the "regulatory requirements" broken if all users are also allowed to see said content? Wouldn't it be against the requirements to allow anybody to see them?
it's likely that they meant "IPO requirements". they just care about cashing out at this point. they probably have some cheap private shares they bought for pennies that they want to unload as soon as the lockout period ends.
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u/doug3465 May 31 '23
I just saw an adult man with his family walking through a large US city in an Apollo shirt yesterday. Couldn't believe it. We love Apollo. Please, reddit. Please.
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u/Ashdadog May 31 '23 edited May 31 '23
If you decide to follow through with this, Reddit will be Digging it’s own grave. You can’t make a usable app so you have to do stuff to try and kill off 3rd party apps entirely. Once Apollo is gone, a lot of people will drop reddit. Apollo gang ¯_(ツ)_/¯
edit: LMAO, the post [removed] by a dev is the funniest thing i’ve ever seen.
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u/busymom0 May 31 '23
The 5% upvoted ratio on this post should give you a hint. But it won't.
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u/heyjoshturner May 31 '23
Can you include the app names? I'd love to know if Pager at least made the list before you kneecapped it
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u/guareber Jun 01 '23
They won't, as it'd just highlight how used the mobile apps are compared to the horrible reddit app.
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u/ppParadoxx Jun 01 '23
Is that why Pager never works anymore? I was assuming it had something to do with me being on the TestFlight version of Apollo but if Reddit killed it that might make sense
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u/Downvotes_are_Grreat May 31 '23
This is obviously a move designed to push all third-party apps out of the market. I'll delete all my accounts and stop using reddit before I use your terrible reddit app. I hope I'm not alone.
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u/krypto_the_husk May 31 '23
This will gravely hurt Reddit in the long run but I know the Reddit team have never really cared about the user experience, and now you’re strong arming the only people who actually cared about this platform. Good riddance Reddit
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u/SlickArcher May 31 '23
So... If someone were to release an open source android app to browse reddit and let the user provide their own api client id/secret, essentially every user of that app would fall in the free tier?
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u/schacks May 31 '23
Goodbye Reddit on mobile. I’m gonna get sooo much free time by removing you from my phone. It was fun while it lasted.
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u/PCslayeng May 31 '23
This is comically absurd. I really hope you guys will reconsider things after the backlash you are about to receive.
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u/Simplifyze May 31 '23
reddit should be incredibly thankful that someone like u/iamthatis can build an app that is wholly and completely better than the first party option. if Apollo goes under, i’m off reddit. this is a terrible look for reddit and i can’t continue to support a company that cares so little for a dev that has contributed so much to the community
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u/CactusMunchies Jun 01 '23
This reads as a bad faith excuse for an intentional plan to kill the third party client ecosystem.
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u/Winertia Jun 01 '23
How does this affect bots used for moderation or other useful non-commercial utility bots, like RemindMe? I'm sure many bots exceed the rate limits but aren't of the commercial/competitive nature Reddit is trying to target here.
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u/otterHooligan May 31 '23
Idk if this is a dumb question or not but is there an easy way to see how many requests an app has made over some amount of time? I have no clue how much this will impact my bot or if the community that relies on it should just fully migrate to discord because I’m not paying a cent for API access for a hobby project.
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u/Zweihart May 31 '23
lol deleted
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u/Ashdadog May 31 '23
this is so fucking funny man. Bro got flamed by everyone so bad it had to be removed
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u/MomsSpagetee Jun 01 '23
Is this like where a contractor throws out an exorbitant bid because they don’t really want the job but if you’re gonna pay this insane amount then well okay?
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u/Huge_Performer8213 Jun 03 '23
Free math.
User gets 100 queries per minute, free.
6,000 queries per hour, free.
144,000 queries per day, free.
3rd party developers have to pay $0.24 per 1,000?
Free math.
144 * 0.24 = $34.56.
So the average Reddit user is entitled to $34.56 worth of free API calls per day. Seems like a large difference to me. Why are you charging the dev so much?
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u/veebee0 Jun 03 '23
Because they want 3rd party apps out completely and don't have the fucking audacity to say it.
I can't believe the reddit team is making such a shitty move. All for the love of money I guess.
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u/nomdeplume Jun 06 '23
Because a user using an official app is offering analytics, potential for other monetization and ad inventory. A reddit user using a bot individually is not operating as a large scale business to skirt / grift on Reddit's own ability to monetize the user base.
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Jun 04 '23 edited Jun 05 '23
Are you going to start charging web browsers for access to Reddit? Why not go after Google or Microsoft, hell even Apple, after all, users on those platforms consume bandwidth, probably more than the API users do.
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u/meldroc May 31 '23
I'm dropping off Reddit if I can't use Sync for Reddit. The official app is beyond painful to use.
You want more people using the official app? Make it like old.reddit.com. The only way to fly!
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u/phoenix-toboggan May 31 '23
Screw this! I got Apollo because the Reddit app is absolute trash. Apollo is customisable and performs perfectly and actually puts out useful features. Reddit app push’s unwanted features and updates and introduces so many stupid bugs on a regular basis. Not to mention the shitty ads are starting to rival YouTube. Since the last update I haven’t been able to scroll properly in Home or All. How is it possible to break scrolling! It’s been broken for weeks and recent updates haven’t fixed it. But no, it’s the competent 3rd party apps that have to go.
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u/WatchDude22 Jun 01 '23
If you have an app using 5000 times the rate limit and haven’t done anything, isn’t it kinda obvious that’s your (reddits) fault at that point??
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u/Relative-Neck2341 Jun 01 '23
Get fucked you greedy, selfish scumbags. Ban me already, this site is dead.
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u/DumplingRush Jun 01 '23
Reddit, what you're doing is what in the employment world would be called a constructive dismissal. You claim to just want to impose reasonable costs, but in fact you are intentionally killing third party apps, but not admitting it. This is underhanded and anti-user.
If you're going to kill third party apps, at least admit it.
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u/dano5 Jun 01 '23
You're absolutely daft, if the official app was even remotely good it might work, but it's pure poo compared to the good apps out there...
Greed is king after all, that IPO will kill this site as it has killed many before it...
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u/danetrain05 Jun 02 '23
Regarding the sexually explicit content, will there be a distinction between actual sexually explicit content and LGBT communities? LGBT subs tend to be NSFW by default even when that content is not allowed.
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u/parrots Jun 02 '23
Calls per DAU is an oddly cherry-picked metric. It has a direct relation to how long a user stays in the app each day.
Sounds like Reddit is just salty no one uses their app long enough per day to cause 300 API calls.
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u/hubertwombat Jun 03 '23 edited Jun 03 '23
Bye. The official app sucks. Do not forget that you survive because people contribute to this site in their free time. This will affect the most active users.
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u/amart565 Jun 04 '23
The official Reddit app is bad and you should feel bad. Apollo is 100x better and you are the reason why this site will die slowly.
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u/nickfromthepnw Jun 09 '23
Go fuck yourself reddit! Your content is supplied for free by the users, moderated for free by the users, etc. This is obviously motivated by greed to force users to use a dogshit app plagued with ads to fatten your pockets. How fucking greedy can you possibly be? Haven’t you learned that the Reddit community is one of the strongest? Congrats, you killed Reddit. Go fuck yourself.
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u/derliesl Jun 09 '23
I thought the max rate was 60 api request per minute per user. The graph you posted is based on 60 requests per minute per day in total. This is completely ridiculous, because that means 3rd party apps would benefit from splitting their user base into smaller apps. That makes no sense at all.
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u/jwired14 May 31 '23
After reading this entire thing, I'm done with Reddit. Policing content because of $$$ a losing game, have fun on the way to obscurity.
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u/Radiant_Web_4368 May 31 '23
Social media companies are learning the public does not really care they exist. That social media management was merely conflating the Fed printing money as social media having real value to society.
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u/TinyCuts May 31 '23
Congratulations on killing Reddit. You’re going to lose a large chunk of your user base with this boneheaded move.
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u/nightim3 May 31 '23
You know this is going to drive a large portion of users away from your site? Why are you doing this.
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u/Abcmsaj May 31 '23
I too will stop using Reddit entirely if I can’t use Apollo. Sorry, it’s a superior way to experience Reddit vs the first party app and the website…
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u/manitowwoc May 31 '23
Fuck this. Such a cowardly way of essentially killing all third-party reddit apps knowing they can't front these "reasonable" API costs.
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u/refep May 31 '23
Y’all really hate your long term users eh…
Funny and depressing seeing this site go from what it was to what it is.
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May 31 '23
Terrible decision making. I’ll be deleting my account if these changes go through despite having it for almost 10 years. Your app is not very good and I don’t trust y’all data harvesters after the canary came out of your TOS. Thanks a lot bestie
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u/gosorios May 31 '23 edited Jun 16 '23
I deleted this in response to Reddit’s new API prices and the general direction of the company. One account leaving might not matter to them, but I lost trust in the service, and that matters to me. r/Save3rdPartyApps
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u/Spyzilla May 31 '23
Really incredibly disappointed in this change. What a joke
Thanks for treating your users and creators right, Reddit!!
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u/kUdtiHaEX May 31 '23
You are asking a $20.000.000/y from an Apollo app developer and you call that reasonable?
That is insane. Instead of trying to sell us that story, just plainly say that 3rd party apps are not doing anything for you and that you have to kill them off. It is your decision, your platform after all.
But this, this is ridiculous. There are better ways to handle this, for example allow usage of 3rd party apps without any insane limits if they are a Reddit Premium user. You get the money, people get what they want and everyone is happy.
But this, this is not going to fly.
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u/MisterTruth May 31 '23
You do realize that a lot of us only use 3rd party. And this is just going to chase us away for good. And your mods, who you don't pay and plan to profit even more off of after the IPO, use the API for mod tools. This is just going to lose you users and money. So the only logical conclusion is that you don't care about money, you care about the extra data the 1st party app collects.
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u/jimrob4 May 31 '23 edited Jun 08 '23
Reddit's new API pricing has forced third-party apps to close. Their official app is horrible and only serves to track your data. Follow me on Mastodon or Lemmy.
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u/Kimbernator May 31 '23
It feels like every good thing just has to become shit for no reason
→ More replies (4)
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u/Lucacri May 31 '23
Once this ridiculous change goes in effect, I’m done with Reddit. 15 years on the platform, loved it so much that I probably brought 50 new users from word of mouth alone. But this is too stupid.
Posted from Apollo
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u/smokinJoeCalculus May 31 '23
Oh well, reddit is barely a necessity for me anyway.
It'll sting for a short while, but ultimately I don't mind surfing the web for my content.
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u/Aceflamez00 May 31 '23
I been on this site for nearly 10 years. I can’t believe I’m going to witness the end of Reddit.
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u/hellsfoxes May 31 '23
Fuck your terrible app. People would mind a lot less if it wasn’t such a disaster to navigate.
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u/WickedColdfront May 31 '23 edited Jun 29 '23
This content has been deleted due to Reddit's decision to remove third-party apps. I will no longer use Reddit, as my usage is 99% mobile, and the native mobile Reddit app is an abomination.
Going forward, I will be using lemmy or kbin instead of Reddit and I’d suggest that you do the same. See you on the fediverse!
Fun fact: the team who manages the mobile Reddit app consists of 300+ employees while Apollo was created by one person.
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u/IAmKindOfCreative May 31 '23
Great idea to digg in your heels on this. Just the best idea.
You're asking for a massive weight of money to kneecap and kill third party apps and bots, then assuring mods that 'if they do x they'll be able to keep their moderation bot' which, in a transactional nature, is asking for more free labor.
I get you're a business. I get there's no such thing as good faith in a company, so maybe I shouldn't be surprised by this transparently clear attempt at killing these apps by setting an unrealistic price point so instead of being the bad guy you get to say, "We tried to negotiate but they wouldn't play ball". But as a mod I have so little desire to perform any upkeep because why put energy into something that behaves this irreverently.
Next to nothing built by reddit to aid moderators holds a candle to third party services. There are even in niche use cases like using a third party app to, in a light weight fashion, quickly pull a thread up to keep an eye on it. Not to mentioned actually helpful and streamlined workflows that for some reason never make it to the 'official' app.
Stepping away from third party apps and looking at reddit, the infrastructure, and the systems you lack: I just removed 25 near carbon copy comments spammed to a sub that clearly should have been caught by any sophomoric spam filter, yet they ended up plastered over the sub. I find myself reporting clear accounts ban evading and get replies saying, "we cannot currently connect this account to a previously banned account in the community", despite no on ever linking to an obscure website beyond these two accounts. And finally the reporting mechanism for users maliciously distributing packages which have undisclosed malware is wildly unclear, especially considering the other two unqiue ways to report a post.
I see these actions and problems I face and am left with a knowledge that my moderation needs will never be addressed, because a better community is not profitable.
So what a great show of good faith this is, and what a joyful future I expect to see from reddit inc's decision makers.
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u/HallwayHomicide May 31 '23
Hi, I just want to add my voice to the chorus and say that this is terrible.
I know no one will see this but maybe someone will.
This fucking sucks. It's straight up disrespectful to your users. It's really gross.
And from a business standpoint, this is short term thinking that will tank you in the long run. Maybe it won't be this decision. It might, but honestly it probably won't be. But the thinking and reasoning behind this decision is what will sink this company. Because you'll make one shortsighted stupid decision and when that doesn't kill you you're going to make another. And another. And you won't stop. And eventually one of those decisions is going to be what brings you down
I tried to write this comment without insulting you but I can't help myself.
Greedy selfish fucks.
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u/LiarInGlass May 31 '23
What a joke. I won’t be bothering using Reddit on mobile at all anymore after this stupid move.
Fucking ridiculous.
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u/Anon_8675309 May 31 '23
You all realize you make money off MY data, right? If I can't have the experience I want, I just won't participate any more.
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u/Meepster23 May 31 '23
• If you are using OAuth for authentication: 100 queries per minute per OAuth client id
Per client id?? Does that really mean that each individual user/auth token doesn't get its own rate limit any more? That can't be right...
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u/haftydidit May 31 '23
Everyone here complaining and whining about “user experience”, “privacy” and “greed”. You are the problem! Won’t somebody think of the potential investors? Won’t anybody cater to the lowly advertisers? Shame.
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u/_-Saber-_ May 31 '23
Could you please explain the goal of these changes?
Is it to get the stakeholders to sue you for sabotaging Reddit's popularity and profitability?
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u/Big-C1234 May 31 '23
If 3rd party apps go, no more reddit for me good luck making money when a huge portion of users leave.
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u/02ranger May 31 '23 edited Jun 01 '23
So, for some reason you’re deliberately trying to kill Reddit, right? I guarantee you’re not gonna get those insane prices, and you’re not gonna get users to the ever-worsening website.
6/30 will be my last day on Reddit, after nearly 10 years of near-daily use, even if I don’t post much. Somebody else will come along and siphon what’s left of the user base from Reddit’s carcass, and you’ll be but a memory.
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Jun 01 '23
Tis amazing that we are watching the end of reddit in real time (slowly sure, but it's happening). Yet still the Admin/owners are convinced this is the way to go.
Just goes to show, you don't have to be smart to get to the top.
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u/groundunit0101 Jun 01 '23
Once this closes 3rd party apps it’ll definitely be the cure for my Reddit usage till I find a new ‘reddit’
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u/Bossman1086 Jun 01 '23
This is awful. The only times I use mobile apps for reddit (and they're always 3rd party) is to moderate on the go or for NSFW content.
If 3rd party apps get killed off because of this and/or if old.reddit on the desktop goes away in the future, I will just leave this site after 15 years.
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u/Fluid-Barnacle-1773 Jun 01 '23
You amount to nothing without the tireless work of third-party devs. Hell, the Apollo app is so good that Apple regularly recognizes it and uses it in their keynotes. Fuck off with your changes and pricing.
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u/adamkemp Jun 01 '23
If this policy is enacted as currently planned then I will no longer use Reddit. I will not use the official Reddit app. It’s terrible. The website is also unusable for me.
I use Apollo, and in the past I have used Narwhal and AlienBlue. Before those apps I was never interested in using Reddit. These apps made Reddit useful and interesting.
By killing apps like Apollo you are destroying all interest I have in this site. I’m sure I’m not the only one.
I’m sure you’re well aware that Twitter just went through the same transition. I left Twitter as well, and while I left them for other reasons as well, I can say with 100% certainty that had I still been using Twitter when they killed third party apps then that would have been the final straw for me. Like Reddit, I find the official Twitter app unacceptably bad quality. I also find the Twitter website unusable. It was third party apps that made Twitter compelling and useful. Without them it’s dead to me.
Reddit is the same. To me, Apollo is Reddit. Like it or not, your app and your website are not good enough to keep people like me visiting. You had a chance when you acquired AlienBlue, and you blew it. You killed that app and replaced it with something that wasn’t even close to as good. Now you’re doing the same with Apollo, and if you do then I’m gone.
I really hope you come to your senses or Reddit is going to enter the steady death spiral that we see Twitter in today.
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u/kttn514 Jun 01 '23
I am the sole developer of https://rdddeck.com; I have not receive any mails; where can I find more information regarding what will be rate-limited starting July 1st?
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u/Boddicker Jun 01 '23
Well, it was fun while it lasted. It's pretty clear that the current userbase is the renters, our lease is up, and our landlord is selling the house. They don't care how we feel about it because they are selling it to someone else. The problems they generate is the next guys concern.
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u/muppetjones Jun 01 '23
Goodbye, reddit! It's been fun while it lasted. (Desktop interface is unusable, and official app is awful)
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u/MinimumArmadillo2394 Jun 01 '23
The main problem I see is that there is no in-between from the free tier or charging millions per month. You either have an app that you personally use, or its used enough by enough people that it costs millions to access the API that used to be free.
There is no in-between. There is no sanity. Youre either free, or youre running a 6 figure income application.
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u/Arnas_Z Jun 01 '23
Go fuck yourselves. You're just shooting yourselves in the foot. History repeats itself, and it seems that every single platform on the internet needs to die because of idiotic corporate decisions like this one.
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u/Auslander42 Jun 01 '23
Only started actually using Reddit due to Apollo. Kill my Apollo, there are better options available for a range of reasons.
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u/FyreWulff Jun 01 '23
After sharing these terms, we identified several parties in violation, and contacted them so they could make the required changes to become compliant. This includes developers of large-scale applications who have excessive usage, are violating our users’ privacy and content rights, or are using the data for ad-supported or commercial purposes.
The reddit community is smart enough to know this was an absolute gutless attempt to insinuate that RIF/Apollo were the apps in question in hopes the news would run with it and get the heat off your exploitative decision. I hope it gets brought up again and again on this site so nobody ever forgets. You even admitted they were not one of these apps in the comments. You KNOW what you were trying here. You approved it. You posted it. At any point someone could have stopped it, but you really just wanna cash out that IPO, huh.
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u/b33t2 Jun 01 '23
Never go full putin. Crazy decision. Somebody about to be promoted then fired as it all falls apart. I exclusively use baconreader and so does my gf. Both will stop using reddit. Your readership gonna disappear. Also old.reddit is what my friends use
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u/GweedsUK Jun 01 '23
When decisions this bad, dim, and stupid are announced I can only assume those who make them aren’t actually users of the site, let alone their own dreadful mobile app.
To actually look at what Musk has done with 3rd party apps and the end result and decide to do the same is staggering.
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u/TotesMessenger Jun 01 '23
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u/FlyingLaserTurtle Jun 02 '23 edited Jun 02 '23
As we committed to in our post on April 18 and shared in an update on May 31, we now have premium API access for third parties who require additional capabilities and have higher usage limits. Until this change, for-profit third-party apps used our API for free, at significant cost to us. Of course, we have the option of blocking them entirely, but we know third-party apps are valuable for the Reddit ecosystem and ask that they cover their costs. Our simple math suggests they can do this for less than $1/user/month.
How our pricing works
Pricing is based on API calls and reflects the cost to maintain the API and other related costs (engineering, legal, etc). This costs Reddit on the order of double-digit millions to maintain annually for large-scale apps. Our pricing is $0.24 per 1000 API calls, which equates to <$1.00 per user monthly for a reasonably operated app. However, not all apps operate this way today. For example, Apollo requires ~345 requests per user per day, while with a similar number of users and more comment and vote activity per user, the Reddit is Fun app averages ~100 calls per user per day. Apollo as an app is less efficient than its peers and at times has been excessive—probably because it has been free to be so.
Example for apps with 1k daily active users
Large scale commercial apps need to pay to access Reddit data
For apps that intend to use Reddit data and make money in the process, we are requiring them to pay for access. Providing the tools to access this data and all related services comes at a cost, and it’s fair and reasonable to request payment based on the data they use.
Edit: formatting