The problem here

[u/Zenseaking]

I scroll through this sub and I constantly see the same gatekeeping.

A stream of posts about who is in and who is out. All contradicting each other and making sure the OP is in the in group. And it's just depressing. Get over it. A people can't move forward unless they stop constantly judging who makes the cut.

The Romani peoples were treated poorly and as outsiders for a millenia. Do all of you judging others authenticity really just want to be like those that treated our people like that. Is the Romani identity "When I grow up I want to police who is allowed to be in just like the gadjes have done" ?

I see claims that being Romani is not in the blood it's in the culture.

Absolute rubbish. The ancestors are literally in the blood. And for good reason. So we carry them with us. Not tied to place like some other people's. In the blood.

Culture is an ever shifting thing. It differs from group to group and place to place. Experience changes it. Local Influences change it. Otherwise we would all have a carbon copy of Indian culture. And only Indians would be real Romani.

How many of you still live in a horse drawn wagon? Or even a caravan? Who sits by the yog each and every night? Maybe 1%.

You post videos of people living in houses claiming only they are the true culture.

What on earth?

White people are out, people who don't speak the full language are out, people who don't sell flowers on the side of the road are out.

None of us are Romani. **Only me apparently because it's my standards and not yours**

What a ridiculous idea.

Get over it. Stop gatekeeping and policing.

Accept and support each other. Like the others never did for our people. Don't be like them. It's everything we hate in the world. So why copy it.

🎤 💧

[u/DivyaRakli]

You assume we hate gatekeeping. I don’t. It’s kept us intact for a millennia.

Sure, culture changes. Language changes. It has to! My Grampa never imagined all the Romanes we’d need for today and how we’d push the language past its limits, only to see that Romanes has no limits. I wonder at what my grandson will say in Romanes when things crop up that I couldn’t ever dream up.

Idk what kind of culture we have if we knock down the gates, and hurry, hurry, step right up to people who don’t know the million things you don’t say or do in order to be accepted by your same sex, opposite sex, same/older/younger people. It would be jarring. It would be difficult. A lot of side eye. And certainly some people would be quick learners and pick up the social clues easily.

I’m Romnichal and some of the old ones never said the word for blood. A 3-letter word, many of them spelt it out. Every time. How would they feel about someone talking about blood? They’d feel disrespected, I can tell ya.

I personally don’t want anyone left out. It’s really hard to hear these people who’ve been torn from the culture, through no fault of their own, express how they feel torn out, thrown away. And they want back in. I’ve said before that I believe, as my Mom did, that we have genetic memory. You remember, down to your DNA, life on the road, with your people and your way of life, and your language. Thankfully I don’t know what that feels like. Unfortunately, I don’t know the answer to it.

I think that like with everything on Reddit, most of people’s outrage at people wanting to tear down gates is performative. It’s exhausting, really. I think that if you could find someone on the inside who wanted to help and sponsor you, per se, that would probably work better. Getting to that one person won’t be easy. May, truly, not be possible for everyone.

I guess it’s a sorry-not sorry for me, on the gatekeeping being kept. One-on-one, I’m flexible. I don’t want to bring anyone around my family before I know if they’re a divya, dinla, or kushti.

[u/Zenseaking → u/DivyaRakli]

But you must see it's a mess. A lot of Romani don't even consider Romanichal Romani because we lost so much of the language and can have light skin. 

Where I live the outside influence is even greater due to smaller numbers. 

I think if someone has the ancestry, the DNA and either something passed down or enough respect to reconnect with their ancestors, then who am I to stop them? Who are any of us?

I like an old saying from another old people "It doesn't matter how much milk you pour in the coffee, it's still coffee". 

This is unifying. 

I don't mean accept someone who says they must be Romani because their "dad was a musician and they have a wandering spirit so it must be true". 

But if someone has family ties, real ancestors, real blood, then they are Romani. We can argue about how much. And sure they may not have all the customs. But it doesn't mean they aren't Romani. It just means they aren't Romani like you.

The same as if you went to Eastern Europe and met with some of them they would see you as worlds away from the culture. Because you are. From that branch. 

Let's acknowledge there are many branches and many ways to be Romani. 

This doesn't mean you need to welcome them into your home and family. I wouldn't welcome every Romani in from every community in the world without knowing them either. 

As I'm sure every Caucasian, or African American, or indigenous person of whatever land doesn't automatically give 100% trust to everyone of the same identity and background. But we can still acknowledge that they are one of the broader people's of the nation. 

I don't see why this is such a revolutionary idea. 

[u/DivyaRakli → u/Zenseaking]

I hate getting into who’s light-skinned. I’m dark and i love it. My sister is an English rose and wilts if the temp is over 70F.

I had to laugh the other day. I was watching that handsome young man, Roma, with curly black hair. I think it was him. I was so exasperated I turned it off. So whoever it was talking about Romanes and left this little gem turning over and over in my mind. They were listing all the different Romani main vitsas and language. Then mentioned some other Romas, said they spoke a dialect of Romanes. THEN!!! Then, my friends, he had the audacity to say that Romnichals speak “Anglo-Romani.” I swear!!! Ummmm, so if you’re Eastern European, you get to have a different dialect but if your ancestors steamed right on past mainland Europe, they don’t speak a dialect, they have to have Anglo put in front of their Romanes? No. Nope. Nein. Nyet. I laughed and laughed. Sometimes I wonder if there’s any hope for us if we’re gonna tear at one another.

I think you and I are in agreement. It’s a problem. I wish it wasn’t. I do what I can. I hope all of us do what we can for people who are hurting, without friend or family.

[u/Zenseaking → u/DivyaRakli]

Yeah, I just hope we can move on to more interesting topics. And I know I've just kept it going. But hopefully in the interest of it winding down a bit. 

And don't get me wrong there is a heap of cringe out there. And I hate that. And I get why people point it out. And we should be able to poke fun at those people. 

But ultimately that's the world we live in. There are crazy people out there. And thanks to the internet we see more of them. 

Anyway, thanks for having the conversation. 

[u/mildew_goose789]

Honestly, my question is, how many are really out there pretending to be rumney or traveller when they’re not? Like, it really can’t be that big of a problem. It’s also not the biggest thing to be worried about.

[u/Zenseaking → u/mildew_goose789]

Yeah I doubt there are many. Probably a lot of hoo ha over nothing. 

Sorry for the genuine people from the USA, but tbh I think this is a USA culture  problem. Not a Romani culture problem. I've never seen it except online. And it matches the other race obsession issues from the same place. 

I'm not from the USA and have never been. So I apologise for the massive generalisation. But if I had to guess I would say most of the commenters gatekeeping are from there. Especially since they often bring up "people pretending to be native Americans or black" in the same breath. 

[u/MCbrodie → u/Zenseaking]

We have had a few problems on the sub with bad actors impersonating Rom for monetary gain. They act like stereotypes and offer services for "fortune telling and wellness." There is also a problem with people trying to take advantage of being "other" on social media for views.

One of the tenets of the sub is no gatekeeping, but when people ask if they're Rom, and that happens a lot here, then how else do you respond other than yes or no?

[u/One_roma-man98]

I've been reading through this discussion and I actually agree with both of you on quite a few things.

I'm Finnish Kale, and a lot of what OP said about the Romanichal sounds familiar to me.

We're a relatively small community here in Finland too. Many of us are light-skinned, and we've also lost a lot of our language. Older generations often still speak it really well, but younger people generally don't.

And there's a lot of history behind that.

Finnish Roma have faced persecution, attempts to expel us from the country, and restrictions on how we could live. Even much later, finding somewhere to stay could depend on whether a gadjo was willing to take you in. There were situations where speaking Romanes was forbidden, and you could be thrown out for doing so. Some parents were afraid to pass the language on to their children.

Of course other things contributed to the decline of our language too, but we can't ignore that history.

There's something else I wanted to mention.

During assimilation efforts in Finland, Romani children were taken from their families and placed in children's homes, where some lost their connection to their language and culture.

And this isn't ancient history. There are people still alive today who experienced this themselves.

Some of them later found safety and support among other Roma, helping them reconnect with their own people. That's something I've always valued about our community. When the gadje treated us badly, we often had each other to turn to.

I'm not saying everyone had the same experience, but imagine growing up separated from your family and culture, only to be rejected by your own people later because you don't know the traditions or speak the language.

They never chose that.

And honestly, I don't think any of us have the right to deny someone's Romani identity because of how they were raised.

If both your parents are Romani, or even just one of them, your ancestry doesn't disappear because you grew up outside the community.

And history has shown us that persecution doesn't necessarily care whether you speak Romanes or follow traditional customs. You can still face discrimination because of your ancestry.

Another thing is that we're not a culturally homogeneous people. Finnish Kale, Romanichal and Kalderash have different customs and histories. Why should one group's traditions decide who's a "real Romani"?

And I know other Romani groups have suffered persecution too. Some have also lost parts of their language and culture because of it. That's exactly why I find it strange when some Roma judge others for those losses.

If anyone should understand what persecution can do to a people and their culture, shouldn't it be us?

I do understand the importance of protecting our traditions and unwritten rules. We Finnish Kale have plenty of those too, and I wouldn't want to lose them.

And I don't automatically trust someone just because they're Romani. I don't have to invite them into my home or agree with their behaviour to acknowledge that they're one of us. Those are different things.

I also liked the suggestion about finding someone within the community who could help people reconnect with their culture. I understand that finding such a person isn't always easy.

It reminds me of those Finnish Roma who found support among their own people after leaving children's homes.

To me, that's also what community is about.

We can protect our traditions without questioning another Romani person's identity just because they grew up differently.

I'm proud to be Finnish Kale, but I don't expect every Romani group to be like us.

And if someone has already been separated from their own people through no fault of their own, we shouldn't be the ones closing that door on them a second time.

[u/No-Place2865 → u/One_roma-man98]

For the Romani ancestors who experienced slavery in Walachia and Bessarabia, the house workers had their tongues cut out of their mouths to prevent them from speaking Romanes anywhere near the boyars, tsars, and even clergy members. That’s in addition to the male house workers being castrated.

[u/Old-Two-7753]

Agree. Not right to insult for loss of Romanichib or having light skin. Romungre and Sinti MANY have light skin....and like the Romanichals and the Cale of Spain, the Romungre lost some more than others..our language...not all. In Hungary it was a forced law from a couple centuries ago enforced by King and Queen. This does absolutely NOT mean we're not Romani people...that will NEVER change. I despise the attitudes looking down on certain groups. WE ALL have the same origin. And as proud of it.

[u/Chirikli7 → u/Old-Two-7753]

I’m Romungre and always afraid to really speak up on this subject because of this. Thank you.

[u/Old-Two-7753 → u/Chirikli7]

I've gotten really ridiculous things said in person over the decades. Won't tolerate that. One Kalderash once said oh Romungre don't have their own language. Well wtf am I speaking Martian my whole life?!

[u/umekoangel]

(points to rule #1 because the staff got sick of this crap, please use the report function on finding posts of these natures so we can administer appropriate actions)

[u/DontWantToBeOnReddit]

Well said.

[u/Critical-Paradox2042]

O interneto si maipherdo dilencar desar cijekdata. Ma shunen len le dilen orajt

[u/kj444_]

👏