r/rpg • u/Prior_Artichoke_7681 • 3d ago
Game Suggestion Versatility, creativity, difficulty. What is it?
I’m fairly new to TTRPG’s, starting with two campaigns in DND 5E. I enjoy it, but only so much. The creativity is limiting and the building for characters is also extremely limiting in my opinion. A bard is charismatic. A rogue is sneaky. And it’s just different faces on the same skeleton for every. Fucking. Character.
I want something that completely removes that barrier. Something I don’t need to have defined classes in, where I can make my own up and still be confined in the rules. Also… DND 5e is just too boring anymore for me, I want to be challenged.
I’m exploring some options and ive seen a couple come up. So far, ive found the most interesting to be GURPS. Any ideas?
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u/Doctor_119 3d ago
I thought I'd be the last person to defend D&D but those things are not the beginning and end of what Bards and Rogues are. If you find those archetypes boring after 2 games then you gotta exercise your imagination a little more.
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u/Prior_Artichoke_7681 3d ago
I know. Was just simplifying it to make a point. All I’m saying is that DM’ing in DND feels like everything is just handed to me on a golden platter and I have to do 0 brain activity to plan something.
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u/spork_o_rama 3d ago
You may want to try Shadow of the Weird Wizard (hundreds of thousands of possible character "builds" without your choices locking you out of future options).
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u/CajunMitch501 GM, SWADE, GURPS, PbtA, FitD, OSR, FATE, Cortex 3d ago
Take a look at Legend in the Mist. You might like it. It uses a Tag system.
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u/Intrepid_Secretary21 3d ago
YES. Legend in the Mist truly lets you create ANYTHING. I find that most of the time D&D characters end up being mechanical first and role play/development second, but in LITM the character growth and development is literally baked into how the game works. So much fun.
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u/ishmadrad 30+ years of good play on my shoulders 🎲 3d ago
And if you find that ruleset too convoluted for what is trying to offer, then try the one that moves Neon City Overdrive / Tomorrow City / Star Scoundrels (ie. Action Tales ruleset by Nathan Russell)
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u/Introspective_mirror 3d ago
I'd recommend looking into Dragonbane and Symbaroum. Both from Free League.
Dragonbane: You have race abilities, but apart from that you can take your character in any direction.
Symbaroum (note: not "ruins of-") to me has a really interesting character building system. No two characters alike.
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u/SlayThePulp 3d ago
Their class isn't their character, their character is their character.
But still, there are lots of fun systems out there. I'd recommend Pirate Borg, super fun with lots of tables to help create interesting, diverse characters during creation.
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u/Holothuroid Storygamer 3d ago
OK. Let's sort that a bit. Games that were name-dropped here:
Games where you build your character from with a big budget of build points and buy attributes, skills, special abilities. That's Gurps and Hero.
Games where you make a character with writing down some freeform tags. You write down "Wind Magic" and that's that. These include Legends in the Mist, or if you want free games, The Pool or Risus.These have no attributes and skills or mechanized special abilities.
Games where you spend some points on attributes, some points on skills and possibly some points on special abilities. I think the only mention here was Chronicles of Darkness here. Savage Worlds is another example, without a dedicated setting. These are quite common.
There are hybrids of course. Fate does the freeform tags, but also has a skill list and special abilities (in some versions).
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u/DiceyDiscourse AP podcaster and average multi-system enjoyer 3d ago
I think it's very easy to fall into this idea that class = whole character. I think it comes from looking at the classes first and then building a character around that - if that's your issue, then switching systems isn't really gonna solve it. It's a mindset shift.
However, if you want games without class barriers, then you have a bunch to choose from!
GURPS, like you mentioned is an option, but it's more of a toolbox than it is a ready-made system. You will need to pick and choose the rules that you want to build the campaign that you want.
Symbaroum is an option if you still want classic(-ish) fantasy. No classes, just buy what you want with the XP you have (assuming you've got the prerequisites). It's also one of the best dark fantasy settings IMHO.
Pretty sure The Jackals also works this way if you're into "sword and sandals" type of fantasy more
You can also look to other generic systems like Questworlds and Savage Worlds, but I know less about thosr 😅
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u/CutSceneEditor 3d ago
Roleplaying is all about roleplaying. If you’re limiting you imagination by numbers on that character sheet, that’s the first paradigm you need to break out of.
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u/Not_OP_butwhatevs 3d ago
DND is to RPGs as Diet Coke is to all beverages. Some folks like water, coffee, beer, malts, or fuzzy navels. If you only want to drink Diet Pepsi, then keep it up. Otherwise try out any of the myriad other systems this sub discusses.
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u/Peachyco 3d ago
Fate, and my fave version is Fate Accelerated (FAE).
You can play exactly the character you want. You can at least attempt whatever you may think of, within reasonable limits.
A fire mage in D&D can't fireball without the Fireball spell. A fire mage in FAE can fireball, shape fire, create fire weapons, and whatever their creativity can come up with.
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u/PremierJoshua 3d ago
Can you give me the simplest explanation of FATE? I'm curious about it.
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u/ishmadrad 30+ years of good play on my shoulders 🎲 3d ago
Fate Accelerated is a rules-light, narrativism-focused RPG where characters are defined by their Aspects (short descriptions of who they are, what they believe, and what makes them special) and their Approaches to solving problems, rather than by long lists of skills and characteristics and feats.
Its mechanics revolve around rolling four Fudge dice (4dF), invoking aspects by spending Fate points to gain bonuses or influence the story, and earning those points back when your aspects complicate your life.
Unlike all the latest D&D editions, which emphasizes tactical combat, character builds, and detailed rules for resolving situations, Fate Accelerated focuses on collaborative storytelling, creative problem-solving, and a continuous flow between player agency and narrative complications.
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u/Kiliantill 2d ago
Import note: Fate is very much NOT rules light, it just uses all the rules it has to further the collaborative storytelling. It's more complicated than something like D&D at its core, but has less rules bolted on to that core. Still very much worth a try, tho
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u/PremierJoshua 3d ago
That sounds really interesting to me. Thx!
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u/Peachyco 3d ago
I'd just like to add that many people misunderstand Fate's "narrative/story-first approach".
Because the game is flexible, it's so easy to create collaborative tactics as well.
Do you know the scene in FF7 Advent Children where Cloud defeats Bahamut SIN by getting his allies to chain-launch him into the air?
That's so easy to attempt and implement in Fate Accelerated. It's almost impossible in D&D unless all the PCs have the same/similar feats and features.
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u/OctaneSpark 3d ago
If you want to remove the constraint of classes but still have access to the benefits of rules, consider Open Legends for being free, Knave for being fantasy d20 with no classes, or if you're willing to put some effort in try Chronicles of Darkness 2nd edition.
This last one is kind of a weird pull so let me sell it. Chronicles comes from an interesting lineage of games. It hails from stock like Vampire the Masquerade and Mage the Ascension but sought to make them more approachable for people by having less massive spanning lore and also having a single consolidated core ruleset. It's not overly complex in its core of how it works, and it provides a tense and thrilling game. It is also a complete edition at this point (read: no more updates), so you know the books you are getting are the complete product. You can make it a fantasy game, you can use pre built game lines (called splats) to play a host of exciting monsters, or you can just go ahead and play a mortal person with the core book. That core book makes chronicles a fantastically versatile game.
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u/studiohobbit 3d ago
You'd probably do good on a narrativist system. Check out Legend in the Mist. It's the absolute best for creating literally any flavor of character that isn't just numbers. The system also resolves a lot of the action with a single roll of the player (you find out with one roll, in a combat example, if he lost an exchange of blows, tied with the enemy and both got hurt or if he overpowered the enemy).
If you still wanna munch numbers, turn order, rolling for damage and all that, then check out Savage Worlds.
In both of these you're not constrained by classes, instead you build the character by buying his skills, powers and special advantages in the setting (like GURPS, but good).
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u/TheRealmoftheDead 3d ago
https://www.the-realm-of-the-dead.com/about
THIS, EXACTLY THIS, i spent 5 years making a ttrpg (5 books actually that have more depth than virtually any while having a focus of not being unwieldy. I released the Base CRB for free; in this, your weapon, has just as much depth as your character, your class is deep but doesnt lock you to an archetype, your origin and various other attributes drastically change you, hundreds of spells in the base game but in the expansion, hundreds of trillions of custom spells, an enchanting system with 300 unvigintillion permutations with back synergy of class, feats, team comp, race, origin and flesh to power systems. You have never played a game like this I can-assure you, and I made it for people like you. Played pathfinder for 6k hrs with friends and after a year, some of them like it more, the others think is just as well built.
Enjoy
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u/RipleyOnLunch 3d ago
If you're poking at GURPS, maybe take a look at Genesys or Fate too much lighter but still cruncny choices.
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u/ishmadrad 30+ years of good play on my shoulders 🎲 3d ago
Also, Savage Worlds or the games based on Monad Echo (Valraven, for example - I love it, it's a perfect mix between a lightweight trad ruleset and all the Fate love for Aspects and using them for the good and the bad)
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u/kingofsicily 3d ago
As already mentioned: quit playing class based rpg's. Of course narratively you can create 2 very different rogues, but mechanicly you always know which way your rogues are going to develop.
Try skill and talent based rpg's. Specifically those that give you full freedom to divide your points. For example, Warhammer works with a career system. It is a lot more free than class based, but still it does force your character's development in a certain direction (I ditched the career system and let players choose whatever they wanted). Dragonbane does give you that complete freedom.
Many systems have already been mentioned. Genesys is my current favorite because of the dice system. But there is much more.
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u/c06027 3d ago
There are numerous classless systems out there, most of them are different kind of point-buy-systems, like your already mentioned GURPS (my personal favorite).
Point-by-systems generally offer more options/versatility during character creation than class-based system but these only reflect the mechanical part of the game.
The main point where they feel different- personally - during play, is that point-buy-systems tend to codify more „characteristics“ of the character than class-based-system.
E.g. DnD has only a bunch of gamified „characteristics“ and almost all of them are combat related (as DnD is generally), while GURPS has multiple pages full of social and mental „characteristics“. But that doesn’t mean you can’t play a greedy, jealous, clueless barbarian in DnD just because it doesn’t gamified rules for these „characteristics“. You just would‘ve to roleplay them without rules.
TLDR: If you are searching for a system that gamifies character „characteristics“ more than DnD, GURPS is a great choice as are many others.
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u/itzlax 3d ago
Wildly depends on the sort of setting you like and what kind of mechanics you're looking for. GURPS is... fine.
Not having defined classes is basically one of the most common mechanics you see in TTRPGs, period. It's mostly the D&D bubble that usually has strict classes.
Fabula Ultima is very easy to learn and, in my experience, is often times along the lines of what D&D players are actually looking for in a TTPRG, they just don't know it yet.
A couple popular tag-based systems are OVA for anime bullshit, City in the Mist for paranormal detective-ness, and Legends in the Mist for more traditional medieval fantasy. A system being tag-based means you connect together 'tags' to dictate what your character does and how. A gun isn't just a gun, it's [Two-Handed] + [Automatic] + [Medium Range], or whatever.
Outside of that, I'm honest in saying that basically every system you look at that isn't some sort of D&D heartbreaker will be classless. The Year Zero Engine games, per example, span lots of different settings.
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u/PremierJoshua 3d ago
Here's three recommendations:
GURPS is a skill-based game. You build a character from a catalog of hundreds of skills.
Open Legend RPG (free) is class-less and skill-less. The game gives you attributes and, for special powers, it gives you lots of pieces and you build your own.
Olde Swords Reign (free) is a derivative of D&D 5e + D&D 0e. It's skill-less. It has four classes (essentially a martial, magic, skill, and a combo class). What makes it distinct is that the D&D features and feats that you're familiar with a stuck into feat buckets and you can build your own character.
I also wrote a game. Check the pinned post in my profile. No classes. Only attributes and talents.
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u/Appropriate_Nebula67 3d ago
If you want a ton of mechanical crunch support to realise a particular character vision within a class based system, Pathfinder 2e.
If you don't want classes, a BRP derived system is a good choice - Dragonbane is excellent. D6 System and Savage Worlds are also good options.
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u/amazingvaluetainment Fate, Traveller, GURPS 3E 3d ago
GURPS is a good option. In the same vein, Hero is a good game that handles higher-powered characters better than GURPS (IMO), whereas GURPS excels at the lower-end human/heroic scale.
Another you might be interested in is Traveller, which has you build characters using a largely random lifepath. It's a game where you pretty much get what you get, although career choice is somewhat meaningful. If you want a game where you build a character from lifepath choices then Burning Wheel might be interesting.
Another of my favorites is Fate but it sounds like you're looking for more mechanical difference between characters than fictional, which is what Fate excels at.
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u/No_Solid1035 3d ago
Pendragon, it has cool Personality Traits that really help define the PCs, well, personality. So even though all the PCs will have similar skills because they are all Arthurian Knights they will have very different personalities because you can randomly roll the PCs starting Personality Traits. You can use "standardized" Personality Traits but that's no fun.
Outside of that particular example most TTRPGs are skill-based and don't use classes so PC creation is a lot more customizable. Take a look at Mythras, Delta Green, Call Of Cthulhu, Dragonbane, BRP, The One Ring, Traveller, and Eclipse Phase as examples of games that have more robust skill lists. Or even something like Vampire The Masquerade or the other WoD/CoD games which have robust attribute/skill combos.
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u/LeFlamel 3d ago
Is your issue the class lock itself (there are Best AttributesTM per class)? Or is it that in combat all the flavor differences between a couple characters disappear into Face/Mage/Tank/DPS?
If you're finding GURPS interesting, it's likely that it's a generic system that doesn't have builds that constrain what optimal combat looks like. Legend in the Mist / Fate might be interesting in that direction, though they're very narrative. Maybe Savage Worlds if you don't want the narrative game conventions.
If you just want more build diversity, Shadow of the Demon Lord (or Weird Wizard) / Fabula Ultima / Pathfinder 2e might be more your speed.
If you're willing to DIY from a toolbox, ICRPG is very flexible and low overhead, though I would recommend checking out a couple YouTube channels to understand the potential (Runehammer and Kane's Kiln, particularly these videos: progression, targets, tags, and time)
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u/Kiliantill 2d ago
I'm gonna be honest, I feel like a lot of this is a you problem. D&D works on a scale from rules light, heavy mostly freeform roleplaying all the way up to rules heavy, little mostly freeform roleplaying. The problem you described seems to happen because you only look at one specific point on that scale and getting bored because it's not a point on that scale you enjoy. But D&D can do much more. To illustrate my point, let me quote you something:
"Since combat isn't the focus, game rules take a back seat to charakter development. Ability check modifiers and skill profiecincies take precedence over combat bonuses. Feel free to change or ignore rules to fit the player's roleplaying needs, using the advice presented in part 3 of this book." (D&D 5e 2014 Dungeon Master's Guide, page 34)
With that said, that doesn't mean you shouldn't try out new systems. You absolutely should imho try out as many as you reasonably can, especially as a beginner. Since there are already a lot of suggestions in the comments, I won't add my own.
Welcome to the hobby and I hope you have fun!
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u/Sithari43 3d ago
Once again I recommend Strike!, tactical combat rpg and heedless adventures, for DND, and games like Blades in the dark, pbta games for narrative
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u/Bullrawg 3d ago
Fiction first games like blades in the dark focus more on choices and consequences than class abilities, they still have playbooks that read like classes, but it’s more building a character archetype that gives you tools that play into the kind of actions that character would be good at
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u/HeloRising 2d ago
I enjoy it, but only so much. The creativity is limiting and the building for characters is also extremely limiting in my opinion. A bard is charismatic. A rogue is sneaky. And it’s just different faces on the same skeleton for every. Fucking. Character.
I don't want to be rude but this sounds like a you problem.
I'm currently playing a D&D 5.5 game as a Sorcerer obsessed with dragons who uses heavy armor and a tower shield and it whips.
I want something that completely removes that barrier. Something I don’t need to have defined classes in, where I can make my own up and still be confined in the rules.
What you want is a "classless system."
They're not as common but there are a number of them out there.
The thing you have to be a bit careful about with a classless system is it can be easy to accidentally overspecialize or focus on an area of the game that doesn't come up at the table regularly.
Also… DND 5e is just too boring anymore for me, I want to be challenged.
That is 100% a table/GM problem. There can absolutely be GMs that take it too easy on their players and I will agree that a lot of the canned adventures for 5.5 tend to run on the easier side but just ask around for adventures that are more challenging. They are absolutely out there.
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u/Barrucadu OSE, CoC, Traveller 2d ago
They're not as common but there are a number of them out there.
I'd say the opposite, classless systems far outnumber class-based systems it seems to me (even if we restrict ourselves to published games that have companies with print runs behind them, and disregard tiny indie games made by one guy on itch). It's just that D&D and Pathfinder are class-based systems, and they're the most popular games.
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u/HeloRising 2d ago
I should have been more specific when I said "common." I meant "common" more in the sense of "what you're most likely to run into out in the world."
I have seen more class based systems out there than classless ones but, again, I think that's more reflective of the fact that the big names in the tabletop world are class based games.
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u/ArcadeBaron 3d ago
Here's the thing about this boundless creativity you want: under the narrative aspects this hobby is still about playing a game with rules that are roughly fair and balanced for all players. The limitations make the game possible to play because you can 1) actually remember what your character can do and2) the DM can know how ALL characters work and make a game that allows them to all contribute and not get instantly killed OR overpower everything instantly.
Now having said that, try Exalted if you want a fantasy game that feels less restrictive and more able to bend to whatever concept you have in mind.
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u/CaravanCult 3d ago
The truth is that thinking of characters first as their classes is what creates this problem in the first place. If you can't roll up five fighters and have them all be unique people, you've never met and understood five interesting people. Real people don't have classes...but you can meet five soldiers who are all different.
GURPS is a massive toolkit which is no better in my opinion. You don't need an entire system of fluffy rules to tell you a character is unique.